Is the bible the most immoral book ever written ?

Sand

Why the Bible? Why not judge the morals of these books?

Invisible Man, The Great Gatsby, To Kill a Mockingbird, Moby , The Pearl, Little Women

 

Because it is a smear campaign against the Bible.

 

There is no absolute morality in the Bible.

These are people who judge the Bible without reading it.

So many people who do not believe in God try to force their beliefs on others.

Then they come up with their own idea and it works only to find it in the Bible later.

Like someone placed it in the Bible. The Bible cant defend itself. You just didn't read it.

 

You buy a piece of machinery, you do not follow the instructions in putting it together, your upset when it doesn't work and you blame the manufacturer.

You then figure it out how to fix it. Put it together correctly, it works. Pat yourself on the back, and claim there is no manufacturer.

Then when you read the instructions and you find the information, you claim you had to cherry pick it. Your decisions were not based on the instructions.

 

Just like slavery. The Bible has very fair guidelines how to treat slaves, payment of slaves, and options for slaves to leave.

The Bible takes on all the blame for bad actions of men, who do not follow the instructions.

If you look at the history of employment, how they treated employees, little by little they had laws instituted to prevent the bad treatment of employees.

Now they claim we were the ones who developed jobs and fair treatment of people, only to look back in the Bible and see the same thing.

Now we are insinuating that the Bible's term of "slavery" is completely different from the term "employee".

Yeah maybe it is not exactly the same, but if they do something wrong to the employer back then they would throw you in jail, then you would see the coercion.

 

https://www.topmanagementdegrees.com/slave-management/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/23/prisoner-speak-out-american-slave-labor-strike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking

 

What people are not stating is when a group of people decides what is right or wrong without your input.

What happens to you when you don't follow this groups decision?

When they lock you up! What happens to your so-called freedom?

Just because you were not 'politically correct' in your words or actions you could serve time.

 

This is a smear campaign against the Bible.

 

If this was about making your own moral guidelines, then make your own moral guidelines!

Why do you have to kick dirt on the Bible to go your own way?

Because of the other moral guidelines held in the Bible.

 

Obviously they feel very guilty in their sexual pursuits, that they run behind religious people trying to justify their actions.

If you don’t want to follow the Bible, then don't.

Dee

@Sand

You say ......Why the Bible? Why not judge the morals of these books?

Invisible Man, The Great Gatsby, To Kill a Mockingbird, Moby , The Pearl, Little Women

My reply .....Because none of these books were used to justify witch burning , the crusades or slavery 

 

You say .....Because it is a smear campaign against the Bible.

My reply .....It’s not , it’s an honest assessment of the contents within this deeply immoral book 

 

You say ......There is no absolute morality in the Bible.

My reply ....Explain that statement please 

You say .....These are people who judge the Bible without reading it.

My reply .....Well address them I’ve read it several times 

You say ......So many people who do not believe in God try to force their beliefs on others.

Then they come up with their own idea and it works only to find it in the Bible later.

My reply .....Well address those people as that’s nothing to do with me 

You say .....Like someone placed it in the Bible. The Bible cant defend itself. You just didn't read it.

My reply .....I’m an expert on the Bible and it’s contents you’re not as you’ve never read it 

 

You say ......You buy a piece of machinery, you do not follow the instructions in putting it together, your upset when it doesn't work and you blame the manufacturer.

You then figure it out how to fix it. Put it together correctly, it works. Pat yourself on the back, and claim there is no manufacturer.

Then when you read the instructions and you find the information, you claim you had to cherry pick it. Your decisions were not based on the instructions.

My reply ......Who are you talking about exactly because I always follow instructions regarding putting together machinery 

 

You say .....Just like slavery. The Bible has very fair guidelines how to treat slaves, payment of slaves, and options for slaves to leave.

My reply .....Nonsense, the Bible speaks on how to beat brutalise and treat slaves , you believe it’s right to own people as property why’s that? 

You say .....The Bible takes on all the blame for bad actions of men, who do not follow the instructions.

My reply .....But Christians used the biblical teachings to support slavery in the U S they followed its instructions 

You say .....If you look at the history of employment, how they treated employees, little by little they had laws instituted to prevent the bad treatment of employees.

Now they claim we were the ones who developed jobs and fair treatment of people, only to look back in the Bible and see the same thing.

Now we are insinuating that the Bible's term of "slavery" is completely different from the term "employee".

My reply......What a ridiculous defence slaves were the property of their owners your denial of this is absurd 

You say .....

Yeah maybe it is not exactly the same, but if they do something wrong to the employer back then they would throw you in jail, then you would see the coercion.

 

https://www.topmanagementdegrees.com/slave-management/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/23/prisoner-speak-out-american-slave-labor-strike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking

 

What people are not stating is when a group of people decides what is right or wrong without your input.

What happens to you when you don't follow this groups decision?

When they lock you up! What happens to your so-called freedom?

Just because you were not 'politically correct' in your words or actions you could serve time.

 

This is a smear campaign against the Bible.

My reply......You’re making no sense 

 

You say ......If this was about making your own moral guidelines, then make your own moral guidelines!

Why do you have to kick dirt on the Bible to go your own way?

Because of the other moral guidelines held in the Bible.

 

Obviously they feel very guilty in their sexual pursuits, that they run behind religious people trying to justify their actions.

If you don’t want to follow the Bible, then don't.

My reply .....I don’t follow deeply immoral books of nonsense and do not need them to guide me in life , you sadly do as you cannot tell right from wrong unless some preacher or book of nonsense  instructs you 

Sand

@ Dee

When I said read the Bible I mean following the Bible.

Just because people use the Bible to support their wrong actions does not mean they followed the Bible.

>>>justify witch burning

Jerimiah 7:31 - "And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind."

>>>But Christians used the biblical teachings to support slavery in the U S they followed its instructions

Do you think the US followed these laws?

Exodus 21:2 - "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment."
Deuteronomy 15:12-15 - “When you set him free, you shall not send him away empty-handed. You shall furnish him liberally from your flock and from your threshing floor and from your wine vat; you shall give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today."
Exodus 21:26, 27 - "If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth."

These immorral actions are the decisions of people, claiming to follow the Bible.

Those are only readers of the Bible not followers

Dee

@Sand

You think it’s moral and correct to own people as property why’s that?

Here you go how to purchase and treat slaves as property in the words of the Bible and your god .......

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Here you go selling your daughter as a sex slave as approved by god ........

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

How to beat a slave as approved by god ....

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.(Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Jesus on how to severely punish your property as in a slave , you agree with owning people as property don’t you?

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  “But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given.”(Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Plaffelvohfen

Where to begin? The Bible story begins with an unmarried naked couple running around a jungle — and then it just goes downhill from there. A brother kills a brother. A married guy sleeps with his housekeeper (with the permission of his wife). Entire cities ooze wickedness and corruption. And there is murder. There is rape. There is pillage. There are golden idols. There is a whole lot of begetting. There is even Edward G. Robinson betraying Charlton Heston. Oh, wait ... that last part is from the 1956 movie "The Ten Commandments."

Either way, a book with this much questionable human behavior couldn't possibly be any good for innocent young minds — especially all those illustrated versions. Whatever you do, DO NOT even think of looking at comic master R. Crumb's take on the Book of Genesis or you may see some of this human drama in pen and ink.

But to be fair, it is, and by far the most popular work of fiction ever written, sadly...

Dee

@TKDB

You say ........Can you provide any type, of archival information to back you opinion up?

YouTube maybe?

CNN, OAN, FOX, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, or maybe NPR? 

An individual, blaming religion for their crimes, is an easy defense to make.

My reply ......An easy defense what do you mean by that?  Muslim terrorists in recent times have committed atrocities in the name of Allah do you deny this?

So yes religion and adherence to scripture from sacred books are indeed to blame 

You say ......It would be groundbreaking, to see an actual picture of God, or Jesus, being a (visible co conspirator,) while an individual, committed their plethora of crimes? 

My reply ......It would indeed , I’m glad you as a believer admit how improbable an appearance from your god is 

You say .......Or maybe even some DNA evidence being present, at the scenes of those crimes, as well? 

My reply .....I take it from this retort you’re on  the bottle again 

Sand

@Dee

You stated >>>You think it’s moral and correct to own people as property why’s that?
Its not what I think, its what the Bible says. Whereas man has flip-flopped over the subject over and over.


Lets look at the scriptures you quoted from to see if we have the full picture:
You quoted >>>Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
If you look back a few verses the slaves are to be treated as a hired worker with a end date:
Leviticus 25:40 - "Treat him instead as a hired worker or as a temporary resident who lives with you, and he will serve you only until the Year of Jubilee."
Then they will inherit land at the end date, what they lost they get back:
Leviticus 25:41 - At that time he and his children will no longer be obligated to you, and they will return to their clans and go back to the land originally allotted to their ancestors.
With no harsh treatment which includes verbal:
Leviticus 25:43 -"Show your fear of God by not treating them harshly."

How does this compare with our employee jobs today?
https://www.nsc.org/work-safety/safety-topics/workplace-violence?utm_campaign=Safety+Training+Workplace&utm_source=adwords&utm_term=workplace violence&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_cam=234057519&hsa_ad=256729382048&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_acc=3965156914&hsa_grp=58421401128&hsa_tgt=kwd-296187366439&hsa_ver=3&hsa_src=g&hsa_kw=workplace violence&hsa_mt=b&gclid=Cj0KCQjwla7nBRDxARIsADll0kC3AedY4hdWla6y_8kH1WRp4cav4f70rdbWbimyXCPmh2BRttpR4jAaAvJLEALw_wcB
https://www.aarp.org/work/working-after-retirement/info-2015/work-over-retirement-happiness.html


You quoted >>> Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
I'm sorry I do not see anything about sex slave:
Worker slave only for 6 years:
Exodus 21:7 - When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.
It is a contract for working in the home:
Exodus 21:8 - If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.
Sexual intercourse is not allowed between unmarried persons. Marriage has consent from both parties. Elsewise she only has to scream and he is to be immediately executed (Deuteromety 22:22-27).
Exodus 21:9 - But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.
Once again the key word is married, showing consent. She not satisfied or wife is not satisfied in any way on the three requirements, she can leave.
Exodus 21:10, 11 - “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."

How does this compare with our employee jobs today?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/787997/share-of-americans-who-have-been-victims-of-sexual-harassment-gender/


You quoted >>>Exodus 21:20-21 NAB
Previous scriptures show the punishment:
Exodus 21:12 - "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."
Doesn't say beating but rather:
Exodus 21:18 - "If men have a quarrel and one strikes the other"
I believe we have seen people fight physically before when in a disagreement.
Of course if the fight results in:
Exodus 21:26, 27 - "If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth."

How many phsical fights going on at work place now?
https://www.workplacebullying.org/tag/bullying-statistics/
https://www.workplacebullying.org/multi/pdf/2017/Gender.pdf
https://www.workplacebullying.org/multi/pdf/2017/E&W-Reactions.pdf

You quoted >>>Luke 12:43-45 NLT
What did the slave do?
If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. 44I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. 45But what if the servant thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk?
How is this different from embezzeling money and going to Jail?
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/embezzlement.htm

If the Bible is immoral, it has higher morals than the current US employment, let alone foreign employment.

The current term "slave" used in the Bible, is completely different than the way the USA used it.

The slaves in the Bible had control of the money, control to leave when unwanted conditions occured.
The "slave" could leave in 6 years, with compensation.

So is our employment era higher morals than the Bible's era?
https://www.wealthauthority.com/articles/the-shocking-truth-about-modern-day-enslavement/
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-number-one-tool-of-financial-enslavement

Plaffelvohfen

@Sand

So, you're saying that morality is relative (Era dependent) ? 

I also question your semantic play to justify slavery... Trying to frame Bible slavery to today's employment is disingenuous at best... Slaves are property, they can be sold and bought without consent... What makes slavery immoral is that it affirms that human being can be treated as property, period... It has nothing to do with the way in which you handle that property or even if that property has rights as a "thing"... Even if you have rules (The OT is just that really, list of rules) that say that you cannot beat a slave, that you have to feed him, pay him and "treat him well", all this is irrelevant...

Being a "good" slave owner is still immoral, it approves the notion that human beings can be owned, sold and bought as commodities... THAT is slavery...

Sand

@Plaffelvohfen

I say morality is dependant on the person adhering to the morals.

>>>I also question your semantic play to justify slavery

I am showing the scriptures stating what the Bible guidelines of slavery were.

This was a guideline higher than our current employment now.

>>>Trying to frame Bible slavery to today's employment is disingenuous at best

Trying to frame the Bible's slavery to today's slavery is also very disingenuous.

>>>Slaves are property, they can be sold and bought without consent

>>>What makes slavery immoral is that it affirms that human being can be treated as property, period.

That is immoral to you? You have to keep in mind the person sold themselves into slavery. They had a choice, they relinquished that choice voluntarily for 6 years, for higher income. By definition alone that is a "Job".

Is there anything that gives absolute freedom? You are not absolute free in this country. You cannot do anything you want. Everyone is a "slave" to something.

>>>all this is irrelevant.

So treatment of the slave is irrelevant!

You don't care how people are treated. So if are not called a "slave" but called a "manager" but you are chained, beaten, and starved to death, this is not relevant?

You sound like you live in a dictatorship. How you treat the people is very relavant to morals. It is everything!

The ultimate standard of morals originated from the Bible.

It was so powerful it influenced generations of people.

It is called the "Golden Rule":

Matthew 7:12 - "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Show me any moral standard outside the Bible higher than this!

The Bible is miles above the morals of the USA.

In the USA people are killed under the name of "Freedom"!

But you are right at least they don't call them "slave", just "treatment" of them is "irrelevant".

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2018-05-04/african-americans-lag-behind-whites-in-equality-index

https://orderoftruth.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/freedom-is-freedom-an-illusion/

Plaffelvohfen

@Sand

For your information, the Golden Rule predates the Bible... 

ZeusAres42

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

Prove it. Your opinion alone doesn't count.

Or that any offender, or criminal in general, that committed a crime, in the name of any religion, and religion in general, was found justifiably guilty, along with any offender, or criminal, for any crime, that that same offender, or criminal, alone was found guilty of, because their crime was committed in the name of their individual religion?

You appear not to understand the difference between a claim and an opinion.

"

• a matter of opinion

• Something not capable of being proven either way.

  ‘relativism tends to regard different beliefs as just a matter of opinion’" https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/opinion

• Claim - "An assertion that something is true." https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/claim
  

TKDB said:

@ZeusAres42

"This is factually incorrect. There have been a plethora of terrorists that have gone on trial because they did or were about to commit terrible crimes that cost the lives of thousands all in the name of religion and rightfully so."

 
Can you provide any type, of archival information to back you opinion up?

YouTube maybe?

CNN, OAN, FOX, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, or maybe NPR?

I can indeed back up what it is that I claimed:

Operation of police powers under the Terrorism Act 2000 and subsequent legislation: Arrests, outcomes, and stop and search, Great Britain, financial year endingMarch2018 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/716000/police-powers-terrorism-mar2018-hosb0918.pdf ;

USA - FBI Terrorism news and press releases - https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism/news

Canada -
Arrests and Prosecutions in Canada for Committing Terrorism Offences - https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/pblc-rprt-trrrsm-thrt-cnd-2018/index-en.aspx#s32

Australia -

Terrorism Court Cases - https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/Browse_by_Topic/TerrorismLaw/Courtcases

TKDB said:

It would be groundbreaking, to see an actual picture of God, or Jesus, being a (visible co conspirator,) while an individual, committed their plethora of crimes? 

Or maybe even some DNA evidence being present, at the scenes of those crimes, as well?

This is a rebuttal against something that I never even said or implied. In fact, it actually contradicts what I said:

These are immoral actions of man, however; not of a divine being. But make no mistake here, I am not saying anything about the morality of a divine being as that would be impossible as there is no way of measuring something that is not falsifiable.

The immoral actions committed were/are done so by mere mortals that blindly believed that they were doing something in the name of a great being which rests on nothing more than faulty beliefs.

Dee

@Sand

You say ......

Its not what I think, its what the Bible says. Whereas man has flip-flopped over the subject over and over.

My reply .....So you still cannot answer is owning people as property moral?

Well is it? You’ve avoided answering several time now is it you just don’t know?

You say ......

Lets look at the scriptures you quoted from to see if we have the full picture:

You quoted >>>Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT

If you look back a few verses the slaves are to be treated as a hired worker with a end date:

Leviticus 25:40 - "Treat him instead as a hired worker or as a temporary resident who lives with you, and he will serve you only until the Year of Jubilee." 

Then they will inherit land at the end date, what they lost they get back:

Leviticus 25:41 - At that time he and his children will no longer be obligated to you, and they will return to their clans and go back to the land originally allotted to their ancestors.

With no harsh treatment which includes verbal:

Leviticus 25:43 -"Show your fear of God by not treating them harshly."

My reply .....let’s revisit ......However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

See that , you may treat them as property and pass them on ......so the Bible is clear on this why are you cherry picking unrelated verses?

You say .....How does this compare with our employee jobs today?

https://www.nsc.org/work-safety/safety-topics/workplace-violence?utm_campaign=Safety+Training+Workplace&utm_source=adwords&utm_term=workplace violence&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_cam=234057519&hsa_ad=256729382048&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_acc=3965156914&hsa_grp=58421401128&hsa_tgt=kwd-296187366439&hsa_ver=3&hsa_src=g&hsa_kw=workplace violence&hsa_mt=b&gclid=Cj0KCQjwla7nBRDxARIsADll0kC3AedY4hdWla6y_8kH1WRp4cav4f70rdbWbimyXCPmh2BRttpR4jAaAvJLEALw_wcB

https://www.aarp.org/work/working-after-retirement/info-2015/work-over-retirement-happiness.html

My reply .....Wow , Slavery still around in the U S my brother in law lives in L A and owns several properties I must tell him he’s a victim of slavery 

You say ......You quoted >>> Exodus 21:7-11 NLT

I'm sorry I do not see anything about sex slave:

Worker slave only for 6 years:

Exodus 21:7 - When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.

It is a contract for working in the home:

My reply ......A woman sold to a man was his property to do with ad he wished and it’s not a “work contract” 

You say ......Exodus 21:8 - If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 

Sexual intercourse is not allowed between unmarried persons. Marriage has consent from both parties. Elsewise she only has to scream and he is to be immediately executed (Deuteromety 22:22-27).

My reply ...... if she does not “satisfy “ her “owner “ come on buddy you’re actually standing by owning women as property?

You say ......Exodus 21:9 - But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.

Once again the key word is married, showing consent. She not satisfied or wife is not satisfied in any way on the three requirements, she can leave.

Exodus 21:10, 11 - “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."

My reply .....So you agree with owning women as property?

You say ......How does this compare with our employee jobs today?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/787997/share-of-americans-who-have-been-victims-of-sexual-harassment-gender/

My reply .....Approved Slavery is rampant in the U S wow !

You say......You quoted >>>Exodus 21:20-21 NAB

Previous scriptures show the punishment:

Exodus 21:12 - "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."

Doesn't say beating but rather:

Exodus 21:18 - "If men have a quarrel and one strikes the other"

I believe we have seen people fight physically before when in a disagreement.

Of course if the fight results in:

Exodus 21:26, 27 - "If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth."

How many phsical fights going on at work place now?

https://www.workplacebullying.org/tag/bullying-statistics/

https://www.workplacebullying.org/multi/pdf/2017/Gender.pdf

https://www.workplacebullying.org/multi/pdf/2017/E&W-Reactions.pdf

My reply .....so American workers daily knock each other’s teeth and eyes out fighting in the workplace ...wow!

You say ......You quoted >>>Luke 12:43-45 NLT

What did the slave do?

If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. 44I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. 45But what if the servant thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk?

How is this different from embezzeling money and going to Jail?

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/embezzlement.htm

If the Bible is immoral, it has higher morals than the current US employment, let alone foreign employment.

The current term "slave" used in the Bible, is completely different than the way the USA used it.

The slaves in the Bible had control of the money, control to leave when unwanted conditions occured. 

The "slave" could leave in 6 years, with compensation.

So is our employment era higher morals than the Bible's era?

https://www.wealthauthority.com/articles/the-sh

Your defence of slavery is typical of one who’s the victim of indoctrination and what’s even worse is you agree it’s just fine to buy and sell people as property .....Wow!

Sand

@Dee

>>>So you still cannot answer is owning people as property moral

I answered your question but not directly. Morality is based on how you treat people not necessarily the fact you own them.

>>> but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

That shows you don't read the Bible, or your heavily cherry picking. The slaves are your relatives. Leviticus chapter 25 verse 35 and 39.

Requires to treat the foreigner and the stranger as your Israelite brother when they are poor and have to sell themselves as slaves.

They themselves choose this. If it was such a bad thing why would they choose to be a slave?

They are only pass down as inheritance when the slave voluntarily asks to stay a slave. Which shows it would happen on a regular basis.

Because the treatment of the slaves was so good that the slaves were happy.

Just like during the industrial age workers did not want to own businesses or be the person in charge. Most people wanted a job and go home, that was it.

Even today most people do not want to be CEO over companies, the stress and work level is very high.

Most people want to find a niche they enjoy and get consistent raises.

>>>Wow , Slavery still around in the U S my brother in law lives in L A and owns several properties I must tell him he’s a victim of slavery

I can tell you rarely if ever dealt with racism, if you feel that we are totally free in this country. If he does the wrong thing in this country he will be stripped of those properties.

Missed payments in taxes or a change in property category will remove those properties from him.

>>>A woman sold to a man was his property to do with ad he wished and it’s not a “work contract”

This is a lie. You ignored my answer. He could not do as he "wished", sexual promiscuity with slaves is punishable with death.

Plus she was given the money (6 years pay) and released. Once again you are cherry picking, to try to make this look bad.

You ignored my comparison to the high levels of sexual harrassment in the work place today.

Plus you gave the same answer three times, without elaboration, nobody understands your reasoning.

Please explain how owning someone with good treatment is worse morals than the idea of freedom with bad treatment.

>>>Approved Slavery is rampant in the U S wow

I think you are tipping your hand about your status in the US. You probably never experienced racism, or poverty.

You also think you have absolute freedom in the US, which is impossible. 

>>>so American workers daily knock each other’s teeth and eyes out fighting in the workplace

There is no one "daily" knocking people teeth out in Israel either. But if it were to happen there is a law in place to compensate the slave, (6 years pay and release).

Yet once again you didn't read or choose to ignore how in the US there is bullying without compensation "daily" going on.

Because you are not a victim you lack the empathy of what others experience.

>>>Your defence of slavery is typical of one who’s the victim of indoctrination and what’s even worse is you agree it’s just fine to buy and sell people as property

Trying to frame the Bible's slavery to today's slavery is very disingenuous.

Morality is not just what you label a person as. Morality is how you treat that person. You need to read ZeusAres42 information.

He makes a very strong point.

>>>These are immoral actions of man, however; not of a divine being.

You are judging the immoral actions of man dealing with "slavery". The Bible has very high moral standards. The whole law hung on the theme of the Golden Rule.

Matthew 7:12 - "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

During the time of the Israelites, the label "slave" was not a bad thing, especially when the treatment was so good, people were happy.

This also shows your understanding of morality is wrong.

You are focused on the ownership of people, not the treatment.

You are also focused on the political viewpoint of the Israelites whether they are labeled "free", not their actual status.

In effect you are saying they are immoral because they are not Democratic. I'm sorry you are very wrong.

Dee

@Sand

You say .....I answered your question but not directly. Morality is based on how you treat people

My reply .....Correct 

 You say ........not necessarily the fact you own them. 

My reply ......Well to me owning people as property is immoral, to you it’s not so your contention is it’s fine to purchase people as property  once you treat them right

You say ......>>> but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

That shows you don't read the Bible, or your heavily cherry picking. The slaves are your relatives. Leviticus chapter 25 verse 35 and 39.

My reply .....Read again .....However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  

See that .....foreigners how are foreigners relatives?

You say ......You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Requires to treat the foreigner and the stranger as your Israelite brother when they are poor and have to sell themselves as slaves.

They themselves choose this. If it was such a bad thing why would they choose to be a slave?

My reply......Where are slaves choosing if purchased and if it’s not such a bad thing why are your relative never to be treated this way?

You said slaves were relatives they’re not 

 .....However, You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

You say ......They are only pass down as inheritance when the slave voluntarily asks to stay a slave. Which shows it would happen on a regular basis. 

Because the treatment of the slaves was so good that the slaves were happy. 

My reply ......Where does it state only if the slave asks?

You say .....Just like during the industrial age workers did not want to own businesses or be the person in charge. Most people wanted a job and go home, that was it. 

Even today most people do not want to be CEO over companies, the stress and work level is very high.

Most people want to find a niche they enjoy and get consistent raises. 

My reply ......So owning people and buying people is just like the Industrial Age nonsense 

You say ......I can tell you rarely if ever dealt with racism, if you feel that we are totally free in this country. If he does the wrong thing in this country he will be stripped of those properties.

My reply ......I know all about racism and what’s it got to do with slavery?

If you break the law you pay penalties who is stripping people of rights in the U S over their race?

You say ......Missed payments in taxes or a change in property category will remove those properties from him.

My reply ....Remove what properties and what’s it got to do with slavery?

You say .....This is a lie. You ignored my answer. He could not do as he "wished", sexual promiscuity with slaves is punishable with death.

Plus she was given the money (6 years pay) and released. Once again you are cherry picking, to try to make this look bad. 

My reply .....Nonsense the verses I gave are quiet clear a man could buy  a female slave as property one may do as one wishes with one’s own property 

You say ......You ignored my comparison to the high levels of sexual harrassment in the work place today. 

My reply .....I didn’t ignore as what has that got to do with slavery 

You say .....Plus you gave the same answer three times, without elaboration, nobody understands your reasoning.

My reply ......Your failure to comprehend a simple response is your problem not mine 

You say ......Please explain how owning someone with good treatment is worse morals than the idea of freedom with bad treatment.

My reply .....But I’m not making that comparison you are , I don’t agree with owning people as slaves you do , you justification for slavery is to protect them from bad treatment , oh dear 

You say ......I think you are tipping your hand about your status in the US. You probably never experienced racism, or poverty.

My reply ......How so? What has racism or poverty got to do with slavery?

You say ......You also think you have absolute freedom in the US, which is impossible.  

My reply ..... Where did I say that? You have freedoms once they don’t interfere with others and break the law , I looked up slavery in the U S it’s illegal and non existent 

You say ......There is no one "daily" knocking people teeth out in Israel either. But if it were to happen there is a law in place to compensate the slave, (6 years pay and release).

My reply .....But workers are free in the U S and are not beaten slaves are not and can be beaten according to the Bible 

You say .....Yet once again you didn't read or choose to ignore how in the US there is bullying without compensation "daily" going on.

My reply .....If bullying is going on and proven compensation is given to the victim 

You say .......Because you are not a victim you lack the empathy of what others experience. 

My reply .....Don’t judge me by your standards 

You say ......Trying to frame the Bible's slavery to today's slavery is very disingenuous.

My reply .....It’s not and it was just as bad 

You say ......Morality is not just what you label a person as. Morality is how you treat that person. You need to read ZeusAres42 information.

He makes a very strong point. 

My reply ....I’m fine with my morality I’m not with your immorality 

You say ......These are immoral actions of man, however; not of a divine being. 

You are judging the immoral actions of man dealing with "slavery". The Bible has very high moral standards. The whole law hung on the theme of the Golden Rule.

My reply ......They are instructions from god are you denying now god approved of slavery and if so why when you’ve spent days saying it’s fine to own people as property?

You say .....Matthew 7:12 - "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

During the time of the Israelites, the label "slave" was not a bad thing, especially when the treatment was so good, people were happy.

This also shows your understanding of morality is wrong.

You are focused on the ownership of people, not the treatment.

My reply .....Incorrect again I’m focused on ownership and treatment , so slaves were happy ??? My oh my .....How to beat “happy “ slaves ......

Exodus 21:20-21(NASB): 20If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

Exodus 21:26-27(NASB): 26If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. 27And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.

You say .....You are also focused on the political viewpoint of the Israelites whether they are labeled "free", not their actual status.

In effect you are saying they are immoral because they are not Democratic. I'm sorry you are very wrong.

My reply ......That makes no sense at all

Plaffelvohfen

@Sand

You are focused on the ownership of people, not the treatment.

Well, duh... That is what slavery means... If you condone the ownership of people, you are an abject individual...

Sand

 @Plaffelvohfen

>>>Well, duh... That is what slavery means... If you condone the ownership of people, you are an abject individual...

I understand why you would think that your words indicate you may have Emotional Deprivation Disorder if you continue to condone holocaustic treatment of people.

Plaffelvohfen

@Sand

Hum... My words indicate I may have X if I continue to Y?  Well, I either have X or I do not... Whether I continue to Y is irrelevant, no? Also, how can I continue something I have not yet started? It's a bit of a strange assumption on your part...

Sand

@Plaffelvohfen

>>>Also, how can I continue something I have not yet started?

I am inadvertently asking you the same thing. You assumed I condone the ownership of people. I was simply explaining the difference use of the word "slavery".

I used the word "may" in order not to make an assumption, but still convey that you are assuming what I have not started.

Plaffelvohfen

@Sand

As I, when I used "if"... So you do agree then, ownership of people is immoral in itself, correct? 

Dee

@Sand

I said .......Well to me owning people as property is immoral, to you it’s not , so your contention is it’s fine to purchase people as property  once you treat them right, that is your position right?

Dee

@Plaffelvohfen

Here are @Sands  main points to me regarding biblical slavery ......

Here is what he stated to me regarding biblical slavery .....

1: Morality is based on how you treat people not necessarily the fact you own them. 

2: The treatment of the slaves was so good that the slaves were happy. 

3: Please explain how owning someone with good treatment is worse morals than the idea of freedom with bad treatment

Sand

Owning people is only immoral now because of what has occured with the treatment of people.

I will give you another example.

Women liberation was not important when women were treated with love and respect.

When cultures changed in their treatment of women, it became immoral if a woman was not considered equal to a man.

Things change with the abuse of power.

https://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/norms.pdf

Especially over thousands of years.

Dee

@Sand

You say ......Owning people is only immoral now because of what has occured with the treatment of people. 

My reply ......Owning people as property was always immoral unless of course one was a “Christian “ and followed gods instructions on how to purchase and beat your property 

You say ......I will give you another example.

Women liberation was not important when women were treated with love and respect.

My reply ......You mean like when they were (as you put it )  happy slaves in biblical times?

You say ......When cultures changed in their treatment of women, it became immoral if a woman was not considered equal to a man.

Things change with the abuse of power.

https://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/norms.pdf

Especially over thousands of years.

My reply .....That makes no sense at all I’m afraid. Listen I know you totally support owning people as property you claimed it’s just fine once you treat them right as they are your property so why are you arguing?

Sand

@Dee

>>>Owning people as property was always immoral unless of course one was a “Christian “ and followed gods instructions on how to purchase and beat your property

If owning people was always immoral then why did people voluntarily become slaves?

If Christians followed gods instructions, then why did other nations who did not follow the Bible have slaves?

Why did atheist nations have slaves? 

What was the culture like during that time?

Who outlined what was right and wrong during that time?

Did Christians follow intructions knowing it was immoral or blindly from their god?

Where is the scripture that tells Christians to make people slaves?

Who's instructions were non-Christian nations following blindly?

Who's instructions were the atheist nations following blindly?

Or where they knowingly immoral in making slaves?

How is it this completely immoral act go on for over 4000 years with no justification whatsoever?

Dee

@Sand

You say.......if owning people was always immoral then why did people voluntarily become slaves?

My reply .....Show me contracts where people volunteered for slavery?

You say .......If Christians followed gods instructions, then why did other nations who did not follow the Bible have slaves?

My reply ...... Because they were as bad as Christian nations , does that make slavery right , if so why?

You say ......Why did atheist nations have slaves? 

My reply .....There is no such thing as an atheist nation 

You say .....What was the culture like during that time?

My reply ......What does that even mean?

You say ......Who outlined what was right and wrong during that time?

My reply .....Why not ask a Historian?

You say .....Did Christians follow intructions knowing it was immoral or blindly from their god? 

My reply ......Christians followed instructions and did not care about whether it was immoral remember the crusades?

You say ......Where is the scripture that tells Christians to make people slaves? 

My reply .....It’s been given to you over 29 times now remember how to treat and purchase slaves 

You say .....Who's instructions were non-Christian nations following blindly? 

My reply .....I don’t know ask them 

You say .....Who's instructions were the atheist nations following blindly?

My reply ......There no such thing as an atheist nation 

You say .....Or where they knowingly immoral in making slaves?

My reply ...Were Who?

You say ......How is it this completely immoral act go on for over 4000 years with no justification whatsoever?

My reply ......There you go you now agree it’s immoral and don’t know the justification yet you attempted to use the Bible to justify it , thank you for at admitting slavery is immoral so at last you agree your god is immoral  

Plaffelvohfen

@Sand

Owning people is only immoral now because of what has occurred with the treatment of people. 

So you do think that owning people as commodities is all right, in itself, and that the only factor that may be bad is the way you treat your slaves, but just having slaves is in itself ok... That is what you're saying... 
Then you are indeed condoning slavery, whether you realize it or not... 

You sure work extra hard to excuse it...

TKDB

https://learn.org/articles/25_Banned_Books_That_You_Should_Read_Today.html

TKDB

#1 To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee

Harper Lee's novel is considered by many to be among the greatest works of fiction in American literature. Yet the story of young Scout Finch and her father, Atticus, has often been banned. Atticus is a lawyer defending a black man accused of raping a white woman. The novel's frank discussion of rape and central topic of racism have made the book a lightning rod for controversy.

#2 American Psycho by Bret Easton Ellis

Ellis is a frequent target for protests due to the nature of his writing, but none has faced the level of opposition of American Psycho. The story concerns Patrick Bateman, a businessman who may also be a serial killer. The novel contains highly detailed and disturbing depictions of violence, as well as graphic sexual content. Because most of Bateman's victims are women, the novel has most often been criticized as being violently misogynistic.

#3 And Tango Makes Three by Peter Parnell and Justin Richardson

This picture book tells the true story of Roy and Silo, two male penguins in New York City's Central Park Zoo. When the penguins were seen trying to hatch an egg-shaped rock, zookeepers gave them an actual egg. Roy and Silo then raised the chick, Tango. Despite the story concerning penguins, it stirred controversy about same-sex marriage and homosexuality, resulting in widespread bans.

#4 The Awakening by Kate Chopin

Chopin's story of Edna Pontellier asserting her independence was a pioneering work of feminism when it was published in 1899. Yet it faced challenges from the moment of its release. This was due in part to its treatment of gender roles, but also for its depiction of female sexuality, a highly taboo subject at the time. As recently as 2011, the book was still being challenged for the sexual image of women on its cover.

#5 The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien

Tolkien's epic fantasy trilogy follows good and evil forces in pursuit of a magical ring. The book has been banned as 'satanic' in some areas and was even burned by members of a church in New Mexico in 2001. The controversy is ironic, though, as Tolkien was a devout Christian and many scholars note Christian the mes in his work.

Sand

@Plaffelvohfen

How is it this completely immoral act go on for over 4000 years with no justification whatsoever?

Sand

@Dee

So you avoided the question.

How is it this completely immoral act go on for over 4000 years with no justification whatsoever?

Plaffelvohfen

Sand said:

@Plaffelvohfen

How is it this completely immoral act go on for over 4000 years with no justification whatsoever?

I'm not sure I follow you here... What do you mean?

Sand

@Dee

>>>My reply .....Show me contracts where people volunteered for slavery?

Show me proof that they did not volunteer.
>>>My reply ...... Because they were as bad as Christian nations , does that make slavery right , if so why?
So everyone in the world was Christians? Where is the proof?
>>>My reply .....There is no such thing as an atheist nation
All of China is Christain? Where is the proof?
>>>My reply ......What does that even mean?
You do not know what the word coulture means?
How can you not know what coulture means and make an informed decision what is right or wrong?
>>>My reply .....Why not ask a Historian?
So you do not know. Yet you judge people based on lack of knowledge?
Innocent until proven guilty, where is your proof?
>>>My reply ......Christians followed instructions and did not care about whether it was immoral remember the crusades?
The crusades were instructions by God? Where is the proof?
>>>My reply .....It’s been given to you over 29 times now remember how to treat and purchase slaves
You do not believe the Bible is an accurate textbook, where is your proof these things occured?
Are you saying the Bible can be considered accurate?
>>>My reply .....I don’t know ask them
So you don't know again! Yet you judge without knowledge!
Innocent until proven guilty, where is your proof?
>>>My reply ......There no such thing as an atheist nation
So the whole world is Christian? Where is your proof?
>>>My reply ...Were Who?
Try to keep up. Where Christians knowingly immoral in making slaves?
>>>My reply ......There you go you now agree it’s immoral and don’t know the justification yet you attempted to use the Bible to justify it , thank you for at admitting slavery is immoral so at last you agree your god is immoral
I asked a question which you clearly avoided.
How is it this completely immoral act go on for over 4000 years with no justification whatsoever?

Sand

@Plaffelvohfen

What do I mean?

Here you are saying slavery is immoral!

Obviously this act has been performed for over 4000 years.

According to you everyone on earth recongnized it was an immoral act.

But no one did nothing to stop it, making the whole world immoral.

And according to you there is no justification for these acts whatsoever.

So how is it that everyone in the world did evil for 4000 years?

ZeusAres42

Regarding some of the comments on slavery, there is no justification for slavery whether it occurred thousands of years ago or a few decades ago. Whichever way you want to define it to suit your own position slavery still remains just that - slavery. 

Plaffelvohfen

Sand said:

@Plaffelvohfen

What do I mean?

Here you are saying slavery is immoral!

Obviously this act has been performed for over 4000 years.

According to you everyone on earth recongnized it was an immoral act.

But no one did nothing to stop it, making the whole world immoral.

And according to you there is no justification for these acts whatsoever.

So how is it that everyone in the world did evil for 4000 years?

Do you read yourself before posting something? Do you even realize what you're saying? I guess not...

Please quote me saying that "everyone on earth recognized it was an immoral act."... Here's a hint, I never did, because whether they recognized it or not is irrelevant... It was, is and forever will be immoral to own people as property...

Do you actually think people need justifications to be immoral??? 

Sand

@ZeusAres42

So you feel that the Billions of people reconized they were immoral and had no excuse?

Plaffelvohfen

Sand said:

@Plaffelvohfen

How is it this completely immoral act go on for over 4000 years with no justification whatsoever?

Like murder? How is it that murder still happen today with no justification whatsoever??  

Sand

@Plaffelvohfen ;

So you feel that the Billions of people reconized they were immoral and had no excuse?

Plaffelvohfen

Sand said:

@Plaffelvohfen ;

So you feel that the Billions of people reconized they were immoral and had no excuse?

Are you high or something??  

ZeusAres42

Sand said:

@ZeusAres42

So you feel that the Billions of people reconized they were immoral and had no excuse?

I fail to see what you're saying here. If you can rephrase and repeat what you're saying in a more clear and concise way that would be most helpful.

Sand

@Plaffelvohfen

Do you avoid all questions?

So you feel that the Billions of people reconized they were immoral and had no excuse?

Sand

Since no one can answer the question.

It is understandable that everyone here judges without knowledge.

It is easy to convict people when you do not have the facts.

Sand

Compassion is the basis of morality.

Sand

@ZeusAres42

Do you feel the Billions of people recognized they were immoral by having slaves and they had no excuse for having such slaves?

You recognized that their actions were immoral, did they recognize their actions were immoral?

ZeusAres42

Sand said:

@ZeusAres42

Do you feel the Billions of people recognized they were immoral by having slaves and they had no excuse for having such slaves?

I cannot speak for billions of people. And I'm not even sure that the people having slaves rests on billions.

You recognized that their actions were immoral, did they recognize their actions were immoral?

I cannot speak for a whole group of people from the past. May some did, others didn't perhaps. Who knows.

In any case, what relevance has this got to do with what I said:

ZeusAres42 said:
Regarding some of the comments on slavery, there is no justification for slavery whether it occurred thousands of years ago or a few decades ago. Whichever way you want to define it to suit your own position slavery still remains just that - slavery. 

Plaffelvohfen

Sand said:

@Plaffelvohfen

Do you avoid all questions?

So you feel that the Billions of people reconized they were immoral and had no excuse?

I already answered that question, but I'll repeat: It's irrelevant whether they recognized it or not...

Does it matter if a murderer doesn't recognize that murder is immoral? I'll help you: No it doesn't... I hope you agree with that at least...

Now, will you answer my question? Do think that owning people as commodities is moral?

Sand

@ZeusAres42 ;

A great deal.

Egypt, Israel, Greece, China, Africa, America, Asia, Korea, Europe, England all had slaves.

Thousands of years of slaves.

Thats billions of people.

If you cannot provide proof that they reconized what they were doing was immoral.

How can you hold this act against them?

Everyone recognizes slavery is immoral now.

But what was the thinking thousands of years ago?

If we do not know or we do not have proof, we are essentially saying they are guilty until proven innocent.

When it should be innocent until proven guilty.

Sand

@Plaffelvohfen

>>>Now, will you answer my question? Do think that owning people as commodities is moral?

No I do not.

Do you believe people are innocent until proven guilty, or do you feel that is irrelevant?

Sand

Since no one can answer the question.

It is understandable that everyone here judges without knowledge.

It is easy to convict people when you do not have factual information.

They are essentially saying people are guilty until proven innocent.

Plaffelvohfen

Sand said:

@Plaffelvohfen

>>>Now, will you answer my question? Do think that owning people as commodities is moral?

No I do not.

Do you believe people are innocent until proven guilty, or do you feel that is irrelevant?

1) If you do not, why do you try so hard to excuse it?

2) Of course I believe people are innocent until proven guilty... But, by definition, slave owners were guilty of, wait for it...: Slavery. 

How they felt about it is irrelevant... How is that not obvious to any sensible person???