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1984 is Now
in United States

By ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
We've been dumbed down by the public education system.

We've been indoctrinated by the corporate owned mass media.

We've been socially engineered by Hollywood movies, pop culture music and TV programming.

We've been drugged, brainwashed and robbed by Big Pharma and the American healthcare racket.

We've been tricked into thinking the U.S. is a democracy, not knowing it's a Corporate Oligarchy.

Orwell is rolling in his grave.
agsrsomeone234Ampersand
  1. 1984?

    6 votes
    1. yes
      50.00%
    2. no
      50.00%
Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

Wayne Dyer



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Arguments

  • @Erfisflat ;

    Interesting proposition.

    I would have to say, that there are elements of reality in all the points you make.

    Nonetheless, answer me this.

    How do we maintain social order,  without imposing some form of State control?


  • You bring up some good points but unfortunately no.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    @Erfisflat ;

    Interesting proposition.

    I would have to say, that there are elements of reality in all the points you make.

    Nonetheless, answer me this.

    How do we maintain social order,  without imposing some form of State control?


    Would you say we have "social order" now? I think things are even more screwed up under state control than ever before. That is an opinion though. 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    edited April 11
    I don't believe a bunch of overpaid idiots who have driven this country into tens of trillions of dollars in debt are better qualified to run my life than I am.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    War is peace.

    Today the wars have no end in sight. The wars are always on some distant battleground, and the enemies are constantly changing. More and more tax money is poured into the private military industrial complex in the name of "national security".
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    The surveillance state.

    In 1984, "telescreens" served as both a propaganda machine and recording or surveillance devices in all but the "proles" houses. Today, we one-up Orwell with our pocket telescreens that both can record us, and give us a never-ending flow of propaganda.


    http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/07/nsa_surveillance_iphones_make_snooping_easy_for_spies_and_law_enforcement.html

    https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/10/23/240239062/five-things-to-know-about-the-nsas-surveillance-activities
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    Fascism
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • FascismFascism 331 Pts
    @someone234 I agree. That is why I don't think privacy is as important as safety. Even when it comes to the government. What the government is doing should be open to the public. 

    Unfortunately, even if this is achieved, the media can always choose which news to report and some vital information might purposefully be left out. 
    someone234Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    You really can't say the best way to obtain anarchy is with any type of government, it's a polar opposite (pun intended). It's like saying the best breed of dog is a cat! At any time, as with NASA, they fully create our reality and we accepted it as truth. Most people would never think to question What they show, with the illusion of transparency.


    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • Erfisflat said:
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    You really can't say the best way to obtain anarchy is with any type of government, it's a polar opposite (pun intended). It's like saying the best breed of dog is a cat! At any time, as with NASA, they fully create our reality and we accepted it as truth. Most people would never think to question What they show, with the illusion of transparency.


    If we had access to spy on NASA as they do with us, no such power could be maintained by them.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    Erfisflat said:
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    You really can't say the best way to obtain anarchy is with any type of government, it's a polar opposite (pun intended). It's like saying the best breed of dog is a cat! At any time, as with NASA, they fully create our reality and we accepted it as truth. Most people would never think to question What they show, with the illusion of transparency.


    If we had access to spy on NASA as they do with us, no such power could be maintained by them.
    This level of transparency would create vulnerability, due to "national security". 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    Erfisflat said:
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    You really can't say the best way to obtain anarchy is with any type of government, it's a polar opposite (pun intended). It's like saying the best breed of dog is a cat! At any time, as with NASA, they fully create our reality and we accepted it as truth. Most people would never think to question What they show, with the illusion of transparency.


    If we had access to spy on NASA as they do with us, no such power could be maintained by them.
    This level of transparency would create vulnerability, due to "national security". 
    someone234
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat If you think I don't know that their reply is a lie, you don't know me well enough then. You should know I know their reasoning is flawed for not letting us audit them at the top level with 'national security' as the defence.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    @someone234 It's not exactly that. With limitless transparency, there actually will be no national security. People are power hungry. It would only take a few moves to overthrow a completely transparent and defenseless state, crippling the military and using it for personal gain is eminent in such a predicament, and the government  (govern-control ment-mind) would not last very long in reality.
    someone234
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat Oh I know, unless the whole world and all governments agreed to it, it wouldn't work.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    @Erfisflat Oh I know, unless the whole world and all governments agreed to it, it wouldn't work.


    Sounds eerily familiar.
    someone234
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat A new world order where everyone is spying on everyone at all times is incorruptible anarchy and liberty for all. If you are going to say that Nixon used the same wording amongst others, then I do not care. I tell the truth and can back it up with reasoning.
    Erfisflat
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    Is that to say that anarchy will lead to a better society. If we don't have a government or any type of ruling order, then in what ways would we be restricted by social constraint if there are no laws to govern such?
    someone234
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • someone234someone234 609 Pts
    edited April 12
    @WilliamSchulz The majority would watch any depraved minority, be it pedophiles, terrorists and/or wannabe tyrants trying what they want to do... You name it, you plan a rape? Caught. You plan a framing of a crime? Filmed and heard doing it. :)
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • Can you then outline the social punishment for such an action? It seems like citizens would lose their privacy and personal rights that we cherish in the government. Sure, the government is heavily flawed and works against society all the time, but the constraints of the legal system at least function so that citizens have immunities from the government that can be taken against the government. 
    ErfisflatBaconToes
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • @WilliamSchulz You don't comprehend this: We would all become the government, we would all be the police of everyone else.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • Right, so wouldn't that lead to a lack of privacy and personal rights. My neighbor can convict me of a crime I didn't commit by being a judge himself in his own case. If we are to elect policemen, why can they enter my house without a warrant? What you seem to suggest is that we would have all of the original laws, but drop the governing officials. That doesn't seem like anarchy, that seems like a social uprising.  
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • @WilliamSchulz You were watched 24/7, you can't be framed and he was watched too, he can't frame you.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • @WilliamSchulz there is no such thing as anarchy without social uprising.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • Usually, social uprising replaces one form of government with another, and in your case, they are replacing a corrupt government with none at all, which is not usually the goals of a social uprising. Also, if he can't frame me since he himself is being watched, then who actually has the authority to convict people for crimes?
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • @WilliamSchulz Everyone has that authority over everyone in true anarchy.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • That doesn't answer the question and leads to a contradiction. If nobody can convict anybody because of constant surveillance but everyone had authority over everyone, then how does the conviction process work? What keeps me from stealing that TV? :P 
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • someone234someone234 609 Pts
    edited April 12
    @WilliamSchulz No one can frame anyone, everyone can punish everyone and as long as the majority of humanity is sane and justice-seeking the world will remain as such. At any time where the majority aren't, it's game over even in non-anarchy.
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • What measures would you use to define people as justice seeking and sane when in an anarchal world, it is every man for himself under a lack of laws? How would you define justice and sanity if you believe our government is clearly lacking such promises of such?
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • What measures would you use to define people as justice seeking and sane when in an anarchal world, it is every man for himself under a lack of laws? How would you define justice and sanity if you believe our government is clearly lacking such promises of such?
    We all would come up with one. Every case would be its own. 

    I know what your comeback will be so I'll repeat myself:
    As long as the majority of humanity is sane and justice-seeking the world will remain as such. At any time where the majority aren't, it's game over even in non-anarchy.

    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • So then what is game over, and what happens if it does occur. If every man creates his own laws, you are excluding rapers, con-artists, murderers, thieves, and other people who remain in prison on the basis that they are not justice seeking, no matter how sanely our current system judges them by. Point in hand, there must be laws other than "I said so, therefore, it is." There has to be some dominant ruling force that over arches our views on law, because nobody will accept our "laws" if their laws are different, which then reduces justice and increases violence. 
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 582 Pts
    edited May 7
    Based on his books and articles, my understanding of Orwell's point is that the gradual expansion of the state role in the life of individuals will eventually lead to the situation where not only does the state completely control what people think and believe, but where logic itself is de-platformed as the leading concept with regards to rational thinking, in order to make people unable to question the reality the government presents them ("doublethink" is a great example of what he was trying to say).

    I do not see much resemblance of the American society and lifestyle to that of people from 1984.The closest example to that from the modern world would be North Korea, where the official narrative changes by 180 degrees whenever convenient, and where almost every aspect of people's lives is controlled by the state. Personally, I only interact with the state once a year, when I file my tax return. This is less interaction than most people in the UK had at the time with their government - so, rather than rolling in his grave, I think Orwell would be genuinely surprised and happy to see his predictions turn out to be wrong.

    I think a better analogy for the processes you've described would be Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, than Orwell's 1984. Huxley's New Brave World also illustrates certain points (mainly prevalence of the demand for physical pleasure over the demand for intellectual pleasure), albeit falling short in predicting the governmental role in these processes.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1606 Pts
    MayCaesar said:
    Based on his books and articles, my understanding of Orwell's point is that the gradual expansion of the state role in the life of individuals will eventually lead to the situation where not only does the state completely control what people think and believe, but where logic itself is de-platformed as the leading concept with regards to rational thinking, in order to make people unable to question the reality the government presents them ("doublethink" is a great example of what he was trying to say).

    I do not see much resemblance of the American society and lifestyle to that of people from 1984.The closest example to that from the modern world would be North Korea, where the official narrative changes by 180 degrees whenever convenient, and where almost every aspect of people's lives is controlled by the state. Personally, I only interact with the state once a year, when I file my tax return. This is less interaction than most people in the UK had at the time with their government - so, rather than rolling in his grave, I think Orwell would be genuinely surprised and happy to see his predictions turn out to be wrong.

    I think a better analogy for the processes you've described would be Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, than Orwell's 1984. Huxley's New Brave World also illustrates certain points (mainly prevalence of the demand for physical pleasure over the demand for intellectual pleasure), albeit falling short in predicting the governmental role in these processes.
    In the novel, doublethink is described as:  "To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it." 

    If this doesn't describe the Donald Trump campaign, I don't know what does.

    What of the other similarities?

    Newspeak was created by the totalitarian state and involved the joining of two words or abbreviations to make more words. Pretty much how the world sends text messages, amirite? K....

    This may not have come about by the same ways and reasons. Newspeak was done to make a revolution impossible by scrubbing the words for it in the English vocabulary, wholeslang texting is done for convenience and time saving. Some would say the net results have some similarities though.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
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