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If the Christian God is good, why did he kill so many people? Does this make him evil?
in Religion

124»


Arguments

  • Joeseph said:
    @Evidence

    Yes indeed, the Bible  is a poorly written book of utter written by Bronze Age goat herds and used to indoctrinate sheeple into believing nonsense. 

    Why are you asking me about the Big Bang and what wiki says ? You do not even know what I believe or why I believe what I believe do you ? 
    @Joeseph your definition of the Bile as: "a poorly written book of utter written by Bronze Age goat herds and used to indoctrinate sheeple into believing nonsense." says it all as to what you believe.
    The Bible has been used in drug rehab, to prison rehab, to change people from suicidal thoughts and getting their lives back together again, from getting an abortion every few years after getting pregnant. So from; teaching the young children to read, to governing the greatest country on earth, this here once Great Country of ours the US of A.

    Ok, so let's see what atheism has done so far starting with the Nazi introduction of sex education (1960) which didn't go well with the prayers in school, so the next obvious "atheist" choice in 1962 was the removal of prayers in schools: Now I am NOT for Religions controlling the State, but am for a logical form of a "moral government" that works. The Bible proved itself for over 2,000 years.

    Results (too many to list) so just a few:
    Pregnancy of girls as young as 12 years old skyrocketed, which finally gave Planned Parenthood (established in NY 1916) the reason to rise from the grave, and to use MK-Ultra on these innocent girls to convince them to kill their babies. But this now brought another form of suicide, which with the full takeover of our Newspapers and TV News, was blamed on us parents, .. more specifically their reading of the Bible.

    Actually this too would be a good New Debate: "What positive moral values has the BB-Evolution Religion type of pseudoscience brought into our world?"
  • @Evidence

    You say ...... your definition of the Bile .....


    My reply .....Even you call it the “ bile “ ......well done you 


    You say ....as: "a poorly written book of utter written by Bronze Age goat herds and used to indoctrinate sheeple into believing nonsense." says it all as to what you believe.....


    My reply .... It sure does as in I’m not one of the indoctrinated sheep .... Even Jesus referred to yous as his “ flock “ 



    You say ....The Bible has been used in drug rehab, to prison rehab, to change people from suicidal thoughts and getting their lives back together again, from getting an abortion every few years after getting pregnant......


    My reply ..... Really? I doubt that very much it’s words have been used to slaughter , tyrannize, and ostracize millions  


    You say ....So from; teaching the young children to read, to governing the greatest country on earth, this here once Great Country of ours the US of A.


    My reply..... Teaching kids to be indoctrinated sheeple more like , your views regarding the USA are very patriotic I hold the same regarding my country 


    You say ....Ok, so let's see what atheism has done so far starting with the Nazi introduction of sex education (1960) which didn't go well with the prayers in school, so the next obvious "atheist" choice in 1962 was the removal of prayers in schools: .....


    My reply .... Atheism is a lack of belief in a god why you want to lump it in with communism  and fascism is beyond me and just demonstrates your ignorance , Hiltler was a Catholic and most of Germany were followers of Christ when Hitler was in power , you really ought to  keep mute on things you know nothing about which seems to be a lot of things really .


    Your “greatest “ little ole USA had Hitler as Time magazines man of the year 1938.......Ouch 


    You say.....Now I am NOT for Religions controlling the State, but am for a logical form of a "moral government" that works. The Bible proved itself for over 2,000 years.


    My reply ....It proved nothing except it’s a pile of nonsense 


    You say.....Results (too many to list) so just a few:

    Pregnancy of girls as young as 12 years old skyrocketed, which finally gave Planned Parenthood (established in NY 1916) the reason to rise from the grave, and to use MK-Ultra on these innocent girls to convince them to kill their babies. But this now brought another form of suicide, which with the full takeover of our Newspapers and TV News, was blamed on us parents, .. more specifically their reading of the Bible.


    My reply .....More nonsense 


    You say.....Actually this too would be a good New Debate: "What positive moral values has the BB-Evolution Religion type of pseudoscience brought into our world?"


    My reply .....Well the Bible fully supported slavery , the killing of homosexuals , the demonization of non Christians , the crusades , the looting and slaughter of millions all around the world all for the glory of the mafia boss god .


    Evolution is not a religion, Atheism is a lack of belief in a god just that,  nothing else 


  • Joeseph said:
    @with_all_humility

    You say ...  To do so, is to mock God, and in the times of Old Testament would bring about the wrath of God. .....

    My reply ....Yes ,and it seems gods moral god code became a bit more tolerant I;the New Testament, why’s that ? 

    Joeseph, apologies again for taking so long to get to your answer for God's moral code from the time of the OT to that of the NT times. 

    Is God of the Old Testament (OT) of different temperament in the New Testament (NT)?:

    I appreciate you asking such questions to allow for clarification of what you and others believe to be a confliction in the Bible.  First, let’s examine some verses that speak of God being eternal.  

     Jesus: 

     Mark 1:1-3 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way, the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight,’”

    • The beginning of Marks Gospel we can see that it was for told by OT prophets that Christ, the Son of God would be sent to man. 

     

    Joh 1:1-3:  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

    • The being of John’s Gospel tells us that the Word (Jesus) was with God at the beginning of creation and that all of creation was manifested through the Word
    • Note: Contrary to macroevolution theory the Bible does answer the quest of how things came into existence

     

    Joh 1:9 -11: The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.  He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.  He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.

    • Here John tells us of the prophecy of Jesus the Son of God coming into the physical world. Note: The world did not know and His people (Jews) rejected Him

    Heb 1:1-2:  Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

    • The book of Hebrews speaks of the Son of God is the creator of the world as well
    •  Hebrews is a great book to read to see how/why the NT came into being and the setting aside of the OT Law
    • The rest of chapter one speaks to the Lordship of Christ

     Heb 13:8:  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    • The verse here speaks the eternal existence of Jesus…If Jesus is eternal then we can infer that God the Father is eternal as well

    Heb 13:20-21:  Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

    • Here the author tells us that God is the God of peace.  Nowhere does the Bible does it ever refer to God as the God of war.  He is called the God of vengeance/recompense, hence the word vengeance, as well as recompense, carries the notion that someone had transgressed something or someone.

     

    It might benefit to show/explain the purpose of the OT and the OT law.

     Heb 10:1:  For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

    (and)

    Heb 10:9:  then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

    • The author here explains that the law (Law of Moses or OT law) was a shadow of the (good) things to come


    Heb 9:22-23:  Indeed, under the law, almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.  Thus, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    • The verse tells us that OT Israel was a physical representation of what “spiritual” Israel (Christians) would be with the establishment of the NT Law under Christ who was the NT Testator  
    • God has always required a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins
    •       Rom 6.23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    God does not sin
    • Jam 1.13:  Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

    Leviticus explains why blood is required 
    • Lev 17.11:  For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

    You may be asking yourself what any of this has to do with answering your question.  Well, we had lay foundation Bible reference to allow the Bible to speak for itself.  What we have established thus far is that God the Father, Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are eternal entities.  So, the God of the OT is the same God of the NT.  God is not a God of violence or of war.  But is the God of…

    • God of earth and heaven (Gen 24.3), of the Hebrews (Exo 3.18), of Israel (Exo 24.10), of gods and the Lord of lords (Deu 10.17), of truth and without injustice (Deu 32.4), of knowledge (1 Sam 2.3), and of mercy (Ps 59.7)

     

    God in the OT is viewed as merciful and gracious Who is slow to anger, long-suffering and abounding goodness. 

    • Ps 103.8:  The LORD is merciful and graciousSlow to anger, and abounding in mercy.
    • Exo 34.7-8:  And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty,visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

    We might illustrate how people can view the same God as having two different personalities we can illustrate using how people view fire. To some fire is warmth and security, while others view it as something that hurts them and destroys. Because of your bias, when you read the or search the Bible you are looking for verses that point out a God of destruction and of death.  All the while the Bible clearly says to those who study it and come to under what is being said in context.  They find God is good, merciful and the author of salvation.

    So, why all the death and destruction?  Again, the physical death and destruction of Israel and other nations represent God’s wrath towards evil and sinful debase behavior.  There are no degrees of sin, sin is sin.  God gave man a physical representation of what happens to those who transgress His laws. However, in the Christian age under the New Covent, those who do repent of their sins or those who are not in Christ (i.e. Christians) will experience a spiritual death on the day of judgment by being cast in the lake of fire (hell).  

    • Rev 20.14-15:  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire
    • Rom 6.23:  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

     

    Consider these passages:

    Rom 6.5-6:  But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.)  Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?

    • The apostle Paul points out in Romans that God is not unreasonable for inflicting wrath upon the world.  

    1 Thessalonians 1.9-10:  For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    • In Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians, he points out that Jesus delivers us (Christians) from the wrath to come.  As stated before, God’s wrath will be unleashed at the end of time.  Until then mankind has been given all they need to know in order to receive salvation on the day of judgment.  

    From the of time of the OT prophets to the birth of Christ, God became silent and no longer spoke to man.  Since the day of Moses, God has not spoken directly to man. From that period until the 400 years of silence he spoke through visions, dreams and through angels. 

    • Numbers 12.6-8: And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream.  Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house.  With him, I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”
    • Deu 34.10-12: And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, none like him for all the signs and the wonders that the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, and for all the mighty power and all the great deeds of terror that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

    I will stop here, I’ve shown that God is eternal, He is the same God of the same character throughout the OT and NT.  That the physical events in the OT represent the things in the spiritual realm and the judgment to come at the end of the Christian age.  That God wrath is His judgment for those who transgress His laws.  If anything is unclear or needs further explanation to let me know. 

     

    Respectfully…with all humility

    @with_all_humility Good argument, except your "Christian" interpretation of this:

    Heb 1:1-2:  Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

    • The book of Hebrews speaks of the Son of God is the creator of the world as well
    •  Hebrews is a great book to read to see how/why the NT came into being and the setting aside of the OT Law
    • The rest of chapter one speaks to the Lordship of Christ

     Heb 13:8:  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    • The verse here speaks the eternal existence of Jesus…If Jesus is eternal then we can infer that God the Father is eternal as well
     
    Tell me, is Adam eternal? Was Adam created to die in the Garden even if he didn't take of the forbidden fruit?
    Also, Jesus said that we will live forever with Him and the Father, so will we become eternal also? You know, where Angels could refer to With_all_humilities "eternal existence with the Father"?

    I would like to point to this comment you made: "If Jesus is eternal then we can infer that God the Father is eternal as well" .. You think? Do you actually think that the Godhead, .. or the God of gods the sun-god Jesus made the father-god eternal as well? I mean in Christianity Jesus-god is the Godhead, correct? He is "above all", so as a Christian you could use these Bible quotes:

    far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

    So do you understand this to mean every principalities and powers, and every name that is named, .. like Father God and Spirit God, that Jesus-god is above all of these?

    He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

    Who came from above? In Christianity, especially during Christmas time we know Jesus came from above, so this could be understood as Jesus is above all, even the father-god. Sorry Pope, but the sun-god is even grater than you! Now if a Catholic nun would see my say this, she would call it blasphemy against the holiest of fathers!

    He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

    So here we can say: "Well yeah, the Father is in Heaven, but he who descended, that is to say Jesus Christ, is also the One (notice the wrong capitalization) who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
    Doesn't the father-god fill all things in heaven? I guess not, so only the Godhead, the God of gods, this Christian sun-god can "fill all things", right?

    Yes, the son of God is creator as well, but not like you put it. There is a huge difference between two gods creating everything, and One Infinite and Eternal God creating "all things through his son Word".

    So who is this Christian Jesus called the son-God, the Godhead of the Christian Triune-gods taught in the Trinity Doctrine which is the very foundation of the Christian Religion?
    And here Apostle Paul reveals who that is:

    who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    And where is this "temple of God" that Lucifer sits as God?

    Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

    Wake up Christians, Jesus is coming soon, not this Christian sun-god Jesus, but the son of God, the created/begotten son Word who is only now called Jesus, but who will receive a New Name after God put all things under His feet!
  • Evidence said:

    @with_all_humility Good argument, except your "Christian" interpretation of this:

    Heb 1:1-2:  Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

    • The book of Hebrews speaks of the Son of God is the creator of the world as well
    •  Hebrews is a great book to read to see how/why the NT came into being and the setting aside of the OT Law
    • The rest of chapter one speaks to the Lordship of Christ

     Heb 13:8:  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    • The verse here speaks the eternal existence of Jesus…If Jesus is eternal then we can infer that God the Father is eternal as well
     
    Tell me, is Adam eternal? Was Adam created to die in the Garden even if he didn't take of the forbidden fruit?
    Also, Jesus said that we will live forever with Him and the Father, so will we become eternal also? You know, where Angels could refer to With_all_humilities "eternal existence with the Father"?

    I would like to point to this comment you made: "If Jesus is eternal then we can infer that God the Father is eternal as well" .. You think? Do you actually think that the Godhead, .. or the God of gods the sun-god Jesus made the father-god eternal as well? I mean in Christianity Jesus-god is the Godhead, correct? He is "above all", so as a Christian you could use these Bible quotes:

    far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

    So do you understand this to mean every principalities and powers, and every name that is named, .. like Father God and Spirit God, that Jesus-god is above all of these?

    He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

    Who came from above? In Christianity, especially during Christmas time we know Jesus came from above, so this could be understood as Jesus is above all, even the father-god. Sorry Pope, but the sun-god is even grater than you! Now if a Catholic nun would see my say this, she would call it blasphemy against the holiest of fathers!

    He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

    So here we can say: "Well yeah, the Father is in Heaven, but he who descended, that is to say Jesus Christ, is also the One (notice the wrong capitalization) who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
    Doesn't the father-god fill all things in heaven? I guess not, so only the Godhead, the God of gods, this Christian sun-god can "fill all things", right?

    Yes, the son of God is creator as well, but not like you put it. There is a huge difference between two gods creating everything, and One Infinite and Eternal God creating "all things through his son Word".

    So who is this Christian Jesus called the son-God, the Godhead of the Christian Triune-gods taught in the Trinity Doctrine which is the very foundation of the Christian Religion?
    And here Apostle Paul reveals who that is:

    who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    And where is this "temple of God" that Lucifer sits as God?

    Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

    Wake up Christians, Jesus is coming soon, not this Christian sun-god Jesus, but the son of God, the created/begotten son Word who is only now called Jesus, but who will receive a New Name after God put all things under His feet!
    @Evidence,

    I apologize if I have I've said something incorrectly...I understand you have an issue with the word "Christian" and the false doctrines that have been taught down through the centuries. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in showing God being eternal.  See below...

    "Tell me, is Adam eternal? Was Adam created to die in the Garden even if he didn't take of the forbidden fruit?
    Also, Jesus said that we will live forever with Him and the Father, so will we become eternal also? You know, where Angels could refer to With_all_humilities "eternal existence with the Father"?"

    • It is unclear if Adam and Eve would experience death while in the garden, but they were cast out for fear of eating from the tree of life.  Why is this? If Adam and Eve would have eaten of the tree of life then they would have been eternal and would have been in a sinful state for all of eternity.  This is why the God cast them out.  
    • Gen 3.22-23:  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
    • Not the Us (this is referring to the Godhead) the Word and the Holy Spirit


    God is eternal: 

    Deu 33:27  The eternal God is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you.  And will say, 'Destroy!' is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you.  And will say, 'Destroy!' 

    Exo 15:18  "The LORD shall reign forever and ever."


    Christ and the Godhead or His deity 

    Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

    Col 2:9  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

    Shares in the rulership with God:

    Before dying, Stephen testified seeing Jesus at the right hand of God. 

    Act 7.55-56:  But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

    Heb 10:12  But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

    Heb 12:2  looking unto Jesus, the author, and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Christ was active during the Old Testament times...

    1 Corinthians 10;.1-4, 9, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.”

    Begotten Son of God:
    Jn 3.16:  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    The word begotten means: (typically of a man) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.  The man deposits his seed, Jesus is from the Seed of God.

    Jesus called God:

    Heb 1:8 
     But to the Son He says: "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.
    (The He, 5th word in the verse is God speaking...and He says "Your Throne, O GOD...) This verse is speaking to Jesus's Lordship over His kingdom.)  

    1 Tim 3.16:  “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 

    Jesus is above angels.

    Heb 1.6-7: 
     But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." And of the angels, He says: "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS SPIRITS AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."

    Holy Spirit referred to as God

    Act 5.3-4: But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

    Note: First Peter says Ananias lied to the Spirit, and in the same breath he says "You have not lied to men but to God."


    As I've told you before, I don't prescribe to the doctrine of the Trinity that many teach especially that of the RCC, however, the scriptures do clearly put Christ at the right hand of God, the second highest position in Heaven and it testifies to Christ being part of the Godhead in Heaven.   
  • EvidenceEvidence 799 Pts
    edited August 2018
    Joeseph said:
    Evidence 


    @Joeseph - You say ...... your definition of the Bile .....

    My reply .....Even you call it the “ bile “ ......well done you 

    Yes, it does look like I did say that. This happens here all the time, sometimes i can type an entire sentence before the letters show up as they trail behind.

    Joeseph - My reply .... It sure does as in I’m not one of the indoctrinated sheep .... Even Jesus referred to yous as his “ flock “

    No, .. i guess you are not. As for me, I am honored to be referred to as a sheep in Jesus flock, and the wondering-sheep that I am, I am so glad that he is such a good Shepherd where he would leave the ninety and nine, and come and look for me, .. find me, .. and take me back into his fold again.

    What I like about you is that you are not one of those "Christian-sheep's in wolves clothing!"

    Joeseph - You say ....The Bible has been used in drug rehab, to prison rehab, to change people from suicidal thoughts and getting their lives back together again, from getting an abortion every few years after getting pregnant...…

    My reply ..... Really? I doubt that very much it’s words have been used to slaughter , tyrannize, and ostracize millions  

    Yes, even during reciting the Lords Prayer can be extremely painful, it's called "Self-flagellation", but that's not a Biblical requirement, so your reply is a fallacy. Try again, only please use quotes from the book you are blaspheming?
    Yes, the Christian Constantine and his un-holy church did use a perverted interpretation of the Bible to do what you said, but we can't blame the Bible for that now can we? Well, I guess if the Jews can make up blasphemous lies against Christ, you can also make the Bible your scapegoat for all the cruelty in this world.
    I do agree that the Bible, which are the Words of God does ostracize millions. But for us believers and followers of the Way, the Truth and the Life, we remember our Lords saying: "Let him without sin cast the first stone"
    If I quote the words of Christ, it is not I, but those words that will judge you on that Terrible Day of the Lord (for those found outside the gate)

    Joeseph - You say ....So from; teaching the young children to read, to governing the greatest country on earth, this here once Great Country of ours the US of A.

    My reply..... Teaching kids to be indoctrinated sheeple more like , your views regarding the USA are very patriotic I hold the same regarding my country

    Yes true, by adding perverted blasphemous lies to the Bible like making God out to be many-gods, the RCC created Christian Religion did use the Bible to do horrible things, and continue to do so.
    Where is "your country"?
    You did notice that I said "once great" Country of ours, right?

    Joeseph - You say ....Ok, so let's see what atheism has done so far starting with the Nazi introduction of sex education (1960) which didn't go well with the prayers in school, so the next obvious "atheist" choice in 1962 was the removal of prayers in schools: .....

    My reply .... Atheism is a lack of belief in a god why you want to lump it in with communism  and fascism is beyond me and just demonstrates your ignorance , Hiltler was a Catholic and most of Germany were followers of Christ when Hitler was in power , you really ought to  keep mute on things you know nothing about which seems to be a lot of things really .

     Would you call these two famous people atheists, or not? Because they call themselves atheists. 



    The "lack of believe in God" does not mean they are not Religious with other god-sorts beliefs, it's just referred to people who hate the Bible and  Infinite God, our Creator mentioned in the Bible, especially Jesus Christ. Like the two famous superstars, or gods in that video, Johnny Depp and Lawrence Krauss. See, they are having church.

    Joeseph - Your “greatest “ little ole USA had Hitler as Time magazines man of the year 1938.......Ouch  
    You say.....Now I am NOT for Religions controlling the State, but am for a logical form of a "moral government" that works. The Bible proved itself for over 2,000 years.

    My reply ....It proved nothing except it’s a pile of nonsense

    Yes, and Hitler is still the "man of the years" in this once great country of ours. There are many ways to worship these 'gods' like Hitler, same like worshipping Lady Gaga, Johnny Depp, Darwin, Professor Kraus, Richard Dawkins, .. etc.
    So the Bible is a pile of nonsense when it comes to "moral government' ?? Can you show some proof for this?

    Joeseph - My reply .....Well the Bible fully supported slavery , the killing of homosexuals , the demonization of non Christians , the crusades , the looting and slaughter of millions all around the world all for the glory of the mafia boss god .

    That's neither the Bible God, nor His son Jesus, nor what the Apostles taught. You are describing Christian gods. Get your story right, because it seems like you worship the Christian gods also, .. that's what I get from your confusion.
  • @Evidence



    You say ......What I like about you is that you are not one of those "Christian-sheep's in wolves clothing!"


    My reply ..... People talk about the threat Muslims pose worldwide as we live in a very volatile world ,I do not fear Muslims , my biggest fear are American Fundies like you and Erisflat who demonize and label  everyone who is different , debate sites now are full of people like you who refer to me as a facist , a Nazi and a Satanist I’ve never been any of what you say I am .


    I have never anywhere from any country experienced such hatred of Atheists as the from the American Christian community , there is one genuinely decent Christian on here as in with humility there are I’m sure more .


    Most Americans Christians believe it’s their right to carry a gun can you honestly see Jesus being happy with this ? 


    Most American Christians detest the notion of free healthcare for all , just like Jesus thought ?  


    Most American Christians abhor the idea of a basic minimum wage 


    Tell me this if as you say if America is a “ Christian “ nation built on Christian values how come 40 million odd Americans are in a state of need ? 


    How come all you so called devout Christians are not alleviating the suffering of your fellow Americans , most of yous claim to be Christians don’t you ?



    The reason I detest the Bible is because I know it back to front and have studied it for many years people like you and the possibly the insane Erisflat rely on the Bible to inform your worldview that the earth is flat and anyone who disagrees is more or less a Satanist , over here people like you and him would be rightly seen as mentally unbalanced but are possibly the norm over there , yous sound exactly the same as Muslims I debated last year who claim the earth was flat as a carpet .


    When believers use “ sacred “ works to dismiss basic science thats a problem for everyone else , you are doing and using the self same logic as ISIS as in “ well it’s in the Bible /Quran it must be right “ the tragedy is you cannot and don’t want to see this as it totally shatters your worldview .


    How come your lot have not got one shred of scientific evidence for your many claims ?   Not even one for a god  ? I guess it must be a big old conspiracy by nonbelievers to keep the “ real “ truth out ? 


    The truth is you are too terrified to challenge or question your worldview or else the indoctrination process was a complete sucesss and you’re too far gone .


    Reply if you wish or don’t , I care not as I’m sick and tired of pack dog rabid American fundies coming out with the same tired old nonsense.


    I do not hate anyone my wife and family are Catholic I’m surrounded by Christians and they accept me as I do them for the way they are , I volunteer for charities and me and my wife assist the homeless and try to be good people . 



    BTW you claim certain people who claim they are  Christians you say are not which is yet another of your many fallacies .......



    The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.

    If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:

    (1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.

    (2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

    Therefore:

    (3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.

    Therefore:

    (4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

    This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.



    I’m a former Catholic and a devout one what changed my mind about a belief in god is I could not find one shred of evidence to sustain my belief any longer , that’s me being true to myself but most American so called Christians see that as such a great sin that it deserves an eternity in Hell .


    Tell me honestly which I doubt you will what crime merits eternity in Hell ?


    I’m a mere human and as a judge I could  not consign someone to eternity in Hell no matter how bad the crime , how come my morality is superior to your gods ? 


    Do you never honestly ask yourself these questions ? 


    BTW I don’t mention where I’m from because anytime I do American Christians like you and Erisflat brand me a , Socialist,Nazi or a “ red “ it’s boring at this stage really 

  • @Joeseph

    Apologies for chiming in on your conversation with Evidence, but thought I might politely answer some of your excellent questions.

    "Most American Christians detest the notion of free healthcare for all, just like Jesus thought?"
    • I don't think "American Christians" detest free healthcare, the concern is who is paying for it.  There is nothing in Bible that says everything in life is to be freely given.  Granted from the parable of the good Samaritan we are to look out for our fellow man and according to Gal 6.10 "Therefore, as we have the opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."  The key here "as we have the opportunity", this is not every day nor is it a charge to the government. The how do we harmonize this with the Thessalonians letter where it says.
    • 2Th 3:6-10:  But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.  For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us, for we were not disorderly among you; nor did we eat anyone's bread free of charge, but worked with labor and toil night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, not because we do not have authority, but to make ourselves an example of how you should follow us.  For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.
    • Notice that Paul through the Holy Spirit spoke against people not working and providing for themselves, that he considered it a sin to be a freeloader if you will.  I believe this is main issue with health care.  Good health is not a protected right, while we as individuals should be willing to help those we come in contact with.  It is not the responsibility of the taxpayer to provide such things. 

    "Most American Christians abhor the idea of a basic minimum wage"

    • I have no issue with a minimum wage, there are some things that need to be regulated and the greed exhibited by corporate America is something that should be, unfortunately, I don't believe corporate America does a very good job in regulating itself. 

    "Tell me this if as you say if America is a “ Christian “ nation built on Christian values how come 40 million odd Americans are in a state of need?"

    • As stated by Christ in rebuking his disciples he pointed out Mat 26:11 "For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always."  While I'm pulling this verse out of context, I just making the point no matter what we do there will always be poor people.  Money never solves the issue, money cannot provide the proper motivation for people to seek a better life.  Even if there was a redistribution of wealth it would only move the poverty line higher, you would still have poor people. Again this does not alleviate the individual from helping others.  But it is not a government responsibility. 
    "How come all you so-called devout Christians are not alleviating the suffering of your fellow Americans"
    • Again this is not the mission of the Christian to alleviate all suffering in the world, we are to do good to others, and be good "Samaritans."  But the charge given to Christians is to spread the gospel to those who are lost in sin. This is the greatest gift anyone could ever give.
    I'm not going to comment on the "Flat Earth" issue...can't say I prescribe to such an idea.

    "Tell me honestly which I doubt you will what crime merits an eternity in Hell?"
    • Well, the only sin that is not forgiven is the sin not repented of. Now Paul speaks of many behaviors that lead to death (spiritual death) in Romans 1, 1 Cor 6, and Gal 5 to name a few
    • Rom 1:24-32  "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.  For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.  Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;  being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,  backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."
    • 1Co 6:9-10:  Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
    • Gal 5:19-21:  "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

    • Then there is blasphemy against the Spirit.  Mat 12:31  "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."
    "I’m a mere human and as a judge, I could  not consign someone to an eternity in Hell no matter how bad the crime, how come my morality is superior to your gods?"
    • Correct it is not our job to judge someone as to condemn them to hell, however,  we are to judge sinful behavior and to rebuke our fellow brethren. No to condemn them but in hopes to bring about repentance look to 1 Cor 5 about the man who was sleeping with his father's wife
    • However, we do not judge them, this is the role of Christ at the end of time on the day of judgment
    I don't believe you to be Nazi, misguided perhaps, but not a Nazi.  

    Blessings!
    Evidence
  • @with_all_humility


    You say .....

    Apologies for chiming in on your conversation with Evidence, but thought I might politely answer some of your excellent questions.


    My reply .....No apologies  necessary you’re welcome on here , I will treat you with respect and in fairness I hope to receive the same back as my experience with American Christians has been horrendous on here 



    I said ......”Most American Christians detest the notion of free healthcare for all, just like Jesus thought?"



    You say .... I don't think "American Christians" detest free healthcare, the concern is who is paying for it.  There is nothing in Bible that says everything in life is to be freely given.  Granted from the parable of the good Samaritan we are to look out for our fellow man and according to Gal 6.10 "Therefore, as we have the opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."  The key here "as we have the opportunity", this is not every day nor is it a charge to the government. The how do we harmonize this with the Thessalonians letter where it says.

    2Th 3:6-10:  But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.  For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us, for we were not disorderly among you; nor did we eat anyone's bread free of charge, but worked with labor and toil night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, not because we do not have authority, but to make ourselves an example of how you should follow us.  For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.

    Notice that Paul through the Holy Spirit spoke against people not working and providing for themselves, that he considered it a sin to be a freeloader if you will.  I believe this is main issue with health care.  Good health is not a protected right, while we as individuals should be willing to help those we come in contact with.  It is not the responsibility of the taxpayer to provide such things. .....


    My reply ..... Actually it’s incredible an Atheist can find verses that support my claim do you dispute what these verses make clear regards helping the needy ?



    Bible Verses about

    Helping The Needy


    Acts 20:35 ESV 

    In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

    Deuteronomy 15:11 ESV / 85 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

    For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

    1 John 3:17-18 ESV / 62 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

    But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

    Proverbs 19:17 ESV / 57 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

    Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

    Matthew 6:19-21 ESV / 45 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

    “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

    Luke 12:33-34 ESV / 42 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

    Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    1 John 3:17 ESV / 39 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

    But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

    Matthew 6:1-4 ESV / 

    “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

    Deuteronomy 15:7-8 ESV 

    “If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be.

    1 Timothy 6:17-19 ESV /

    As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

    1 Timothy 5:8 ESV / 

    But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

    Matthew 25:35 ESV / 

    For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

    Luke 14:12-14 ESV / 

    He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”

    James 1:27 ESV / 

    Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

    Proverbs 14:31 ESV / 

    Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

    Hebrews 13:16 ESV / 

    Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

    Isaiah 58:6-7 ESV / 

    “Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

    Ephesians 4:28 ESV / 

    Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.




    I said ....Most American Christians abhor the idea of a basic minimum wage"



    You say......I have no issue with a minimum wage, there are some things that need to be regulated and the greed exhibited by corporate America is something that should be, unfortunately, I don't believe corporate America does a very good job in regulating itself. 


    My reply ..... Most are more or less greedy to an extent everything is relative , what about your military spending billions (if not more ) yearly is that really necessary ?



    You say .... As stated by Christ in rebuking his disciples he pointed out Mat 26:11 "For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always."  While I'm pulling this verse out of context, I just making the point no matter what we do there will always be poor people.  Money never solves the issue, money cannot provide the proper motivation for people to seek a better life.  Even if there was a redistribution of wealth it would only move the poverty line higher, you would still have poor people. Again this does not alleviate the individual from helping others.  But it is not a government responsibility......


    My reply ..... Read the verses I posted , no one is talking about who’s responsibility it is , I’m talking about alleviating sufffering 



    You say ......

    Again this is not the mission of the Christian to alleviate all suffering in the world, we are to do good to others, and be good "Samaritans."  But the charge given to Christians is to spread the gospel to those who are lost in sin. This is the greatest gift anyone could ever give.


    My reply  ..... Proverbs 31:8-9 New International Version (NIV)

    Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,

        for the rights of all who are destitute.

    Speak up and judge fairly;

        defend the rights of the poor and needy.


    I presumed this was a duty for all Christians 


    You say.....I'm not going to comment on the "Flat Earth" issue...can't say I prescribe to such an idea.


    My reply ..... Yes indeed


    I said ......” Tell me honestly which I doubt you will what crime merits an eternity in Hell?"

    Well, the only sin that is not forgiven is the sin not repented of. Now Paul speaks of many behaviors that lead to death (spiritual death) in Romans 1, 1 Cor 6, and Gal 5 to name a few

    Rom 1:24-32  "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.  For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.  Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;  being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,  backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

    1Co 6:9-10:  Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Gal 5:19-21:  "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

    Then there is blasphemy against the Spirit.  Mat 12:31  "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."

    "I’m a mere human and as a judge, I could  not consign someone to an eternity in Hell no matter how bad the crime, how come my morality is superior to your gods?"



    Correct it is not our job to judge someone as to condemn them to hell, however,  we are to judge sinful behavior and to rebuke our fellow brethren



    My reply ....  But the Bible tells us not to judge yet you say we are too judge ? 


    You say ..... No to condemn them but in hopes to bring about repentance look to 1 Cor 5 about the man who was sleeping with his father's wife

    However, we do not judge them, this is the role of Christ at the end of time on the day of judgment


    My reply ....But you never answered why can a so called loving god consign someone to hell for eternity ?  Why can a loving god not forgive like he tells others to do ?

    How come my moral compass is superior to gods ? 



    You say.......


    I don't believe you to be Nazi, misguided perhaps, but not a Nazi.  


    Blessings!



    My reply. ..... misguided

    mɪsˈɡʌɪdɪd/

    adjective

    1. having or showing faulty judgement or reasoning."their misguided belief that they were defending the honour of their country"

    2 synonyms:

    3 erroneous, fallacious, unwarranted, unfounded, unsound, misplaced, misconceived, ill-advised, inadvisable, ill-considered, ill-judged, inappropriate, impolitic, unwise, injudicious, imprudent, rash, foolish More

    4




    Wow ! There’s that respect thing gone in one quick jab .  So as a former devout  Catholic and now an Atheist you think I didn’t go through a process of intense self examination and questioning to reach the position I’m in today ? 


    Do you equally call anyone who disagrees with your worldview on politics , literature , philosophy etc , etc “misguided “ ? 


    One last thing why do American Christians always have to get a jab in does it make one feel superior to something ? 


  • edited August 2018
    @Joeseph

    "My reply ..... Actually, it’s incredible an Atheist can find verses that support my claim do you dispute what these verses make clear regards helping the needy?"
    • I could have cited all of these verses as well, but again the context is to the individual to help, not as a whole nation.  I don't find it incredible that an atheist can find verses (you also claimed to be a former RCC member) and many atheists simply copy paste from one of their websites.  What I would find amazing is if you were using the verses that you cite in the correct context.  
    • Again from the verses I briefly reviewed the context is to the individual and not a whole nation.  So, you are miss applying these verses and taking them out of context and making a pretext.
    • The charge here is for the individual Christian to aid his fellow human beings
    • Even during the time of Moses, God did not charge the nation of Israel to care for the poor but instead charged each individual to look out for his fellow neighbor
    My reply ..... Most are more or less greedy to an extent everything is relative, what about your military spending billions (if not more ) yearly is that really necessary?
    • Given the role (world police) that the US has taken on, yes the military spending budget is needed in order to defend against communism and extremest across the Globe.  Who else is going to do it?  
    • Who else has a military big enough take on Russia or China?
    • Who provides most of the funding for NATO?
    My reply...But the Bible tells us not to judge yet you say we are too judge? 
    • We have to use our brains to discern good from evil....correct?  In doing so you are judging a situation to be of sin or not of sin. We judge things every day in the life, we judge which food tastes better.  The charge given by God not to judge is to not condemn our brothers...that's it.  We must judge other matters that affect our lives. So, therefore, we cannot use a blanket statement not to judge anything. This would be speaking where the Bible does not speak.  1 Cor 5: The man sleeping with his father wives...was this man not judged to be in sin?  Yes, but in 2 Corinthians we find that he repents of his sinful deeds and is welcomed back into the church.  

    My reply...But you never answered why can a so-called loving god consign someone to hell for eternity?  Why can a loving God not forgive like he tells others to do?

    • God is merciful and just and does not lie. So when one transgresses His law He must judge them and condemn them to hell.  Do you believe God should give the same reward to everyone regardless if they were obedient to him or not?  How would that be just?  If you get a 100% on a test to graduate a course, would you think it fair for the person who never studied to have their grade changed to 100% as well? So as to share in the glory and receive the same reward?

    How come my moral compass is superior to gods? 

    Wow, so your moral compass is superior to God"s...how might this be?  By what authority do you speak such things?

    Do you equally call anyone who disagrees with your worldview on politics, literature, philosophy etc, etc “misguided“? 

    • For these things no, these are matters of judgment and do not matter in the scheme of life, everyone is entitled to their opinion on these matters...However, Biblical doctrine and attacking the scriptures spoken by the holy spirit I do take an offense to.
    • Please do not get upset with my use of the word misguided, if it offends you, I apologize.  It was not my intent to offend you. Poor word selection on my part. But I do believe your understanding of the scriptures to not be accurate.  
    One last thing why do American Christians always have to get a jab in does it make one feel superior to something? 
    • Again, I apologize for offending you. Was not intentional I do not feel any need to Jab someone in the eye. Humble apologies!
    • If I have not addressed anything let me know, and I'll be sure to give an answer.


    Evidence
  • @with_all_humility

    Thank you for your post and now you explain it that’s fine ,apologies on my part as you do seem a genuinely decent person I would be glad to converse with .I realise now you didn’t mean it the way I took it up   I’m delighted to have found a decent Christian whos willing  to exchange views on these matters .

    I will address your excellent response in the coming days as I’m up to my eyes at the moment , Thanks , talk soon 
    Evidence
  • Evidence said:

    @with_all_humility Good argument, except your "Christian" interpretation of this:

    Heb 1:1-2:  Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

    • The book of Hebrews speaks of the Son of God is the creator of the world as well
    •  Hebrews is a great book to read to see how/why the NT came into being and the setting aside of the OT Law
    • The rest of chapter one speaks to the Lordship of Christ

     Heb 13:8:  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    • The verse here speaks the eternal existence of Jesus…If Jesus is eternal then we can infer that God the Father is eternal as well
     
    Tell me, is Adam eternal? Was Adam created to die in the Garden even if he didn't take of the forbidden fruit?
    Also, Jesus said that we will live forever with Him and the Father, so will we become eternal also? You know, where Angels could refer to With_all_humilities "eternal existence with the Father"?

    I would like to point to this comment you made: "If Jesus is eternal then we can infer that God the Father is eternal as well" .. You think? Do you actually think that the Godhead, .. or the God of gods the sun-god Jesus made the father-god eternal as well? I mean in Christianity Jesus-god is the Godhead, correct? He is "above all", so as a Christian you could use these Bible quotes:

    far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

    So do you understand this to mean every principalities and powers, and every name that is named, .. like Father God and Spirit God, that Jesus-god is above all of these?

    He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

    Who came from above? In Christianity, especially during Christmas time we know Jesus came from above, so this could be understood as Jesus is above all, even the father-god. Sorry Pope, but the sun-god is even grater than you! Now if a Catholic nun would see my say this, she would call it blasphemy against the holiest of fathers!

    He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

    So here we can say: "Well yeah, the Father is in Heaven, but he who descended, that is to say Jesus Christ, is also the One (notice the wrong capitalization) who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
    Doesn't the father-god fill all things in heaven? I guess not, so only the Godhead, the God of gods, this Christian sun-god can "fill all things", right?

    Yes, the son of God is creator as well, but not like you put it. There is a huge difference between two gods creating everything, and One Infinite and Eternal God creating "all things through his son Word".

    So who is this Christian Jesus called the son-God, the Godhead of the Christian Triune-gods taught in the Trinity Doctrine which is the very foundation of the Christian Religion?
    And here Apostle Paul reveals who that is:

    who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    And where is this "temple of God" that Lucifer sits as God?

    Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

    Wake up Christians, Jesus is coming soon, not this Christian sun-god Jesus, but the son of God, the created/begotten son Word who is only now called Jesus, but who will receive a New Name after God put all things under His feet!
      
    @with_all_humility
    to Evidence,
    I apologize if I have I've said something incorrectly...I understand you have an issue with the word "Christian" and the false doctrines that have been taught down through the centuries. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in showing God being eternal.  See below...

    No apologies needed my dear friend! Actually I would like to apologize for coming on so strong, but it is NOT at you, but this terrible misconception we, our parents and grandparents going back with our ancestors 1,700 years been living theirs, and now our lives in, that we are now stuck with associating God, His son Word aka Jesus Christ and the very words in the Bible with "Christian". yet NOTHING in the Bible is Christian, the word only appears three times, and is an obvious derogatory name calling of the early believers who identified themselves as the followers of the Way.
    The same as associating NASA space, the god-planets and astronomy with science. It may sound all sciency but it is NOT science, it's science fiction and pseudoscience, .. you know what I mean? So, back to our topic;

    Evidence said - "Tell me, is Adam eternal? Was Adam created to die in the Garden even if he didn't take of the forbidden fruit?
    Also, Jesus said that we will live forever with Him and the Father, so will we become eternal also? You know, where Angels could refer to With_all_humilities "eternal existence with the Father"?" 

    with_all_humility said -
    * It is unclear if Adam and Eve would experience death while in the garden, but they were cast out for fear of eating from the tree of life.

    This kind of explains it don't you think?   Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

    with_all_humility - Why is this? If Adam and Eve would have eaten of the tree of life then they would have been eternal and would have been in a sinful state for all of eternity.  This is why the God cast them out.

    Yes, that's how I been taught too, when I was a Christian. But if you read it outside our old indoctrination, we realize that the only forbidden fruit was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and not of the Tree of Life. So like we today take of Christ, or aka "Tree of Life" and live, Adam and Eve lived because: "In the cool of the day" came their food, where they talked with the Lord and had their fill..

    Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

    The same thing happens when the Lord is calling us today; "Where are you?" So we answer, “I heard you (read a debate, heard a preaching etc.) but I was afraid because I don't want to hear the truth; so I hide!"

    with_all_humility said- * Gen 3.22-23:  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

    This was for punishment, where God distanced Himself from us, and no longer did Gods son Word (Tree of Life) available for them for 4,000 years. Instead, God spoke to us through His Prophets.

    with_all_humility said- Not the Us (this is referring to the Godhead) the Word and the Holy Spirit
    God is eternal: Deu 33:27  The eternal God is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you.  And will say, 'Destroy!' is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you.  And will say, 'Destroy!' 
    Exo 15:18  "The LORD shall reign forever and ever.
    Christ and the Godhead or His deity 
    Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
    Col 2:9  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
    Shares in the rulership with God:
    Before dying, Stephen testified seeing Jesus at the right hand of God. 

    Act 7.55-56:  But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

    Heb 10:12  But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

    Heb 12:2  looking unto Jesus, the author, and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


    This "Godhead" is only for Christians, to raise their Jesus the sun-god above all that is called God!
    Stephen did not see two-gods, instead, it's as you quoted: "But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" Act 7.55-56 

    You see, Stephen didn't say he seen God, but only the Glory of God, because no one has seen God at any time. The Fiery Angel that appeared to Moses was not God himself, but the "glory of God" was present in the Angel of the Lord.

    - The Greek manuscript word should be rendered 'divinity' or 'deity'. Many Bible scholars and translators have realized that 'godhead' does not convey clear meaning. ... 'Godhead' in Colossians 2:9 of the KJV is a translation of the Greek theotees, which is "an abstract noun for theos," the usual Greek word translated 'God'. - Google

    Remember that Moses was also a Godhead, or "theotees", raised to that position by God Himself:

    Exodus 7:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country.

    Yes, the Lord Jesus will reign forever and ever, but he is NOT Eternal as God is. We disciples of Christ, who have rejected all Religions with their gods, shall also reign with him forever and ever (Heb 12:12) with Christ sitting on the right hand of "the unapproachable Light, .. God the Infinite and Eternal "I Am"!

    Remember how I keep saying that there is a night and day difference between Infinite and infinity, between Eternal and eternity. The son Word had a beginning, and he IS the end, or he is there when God creates the last thing He creates, .. because all things are created through the son, and for the son Word. (John 1:1 -)


    with_all_humility said - Christ was active during the Old Testament times...

    1 Corinthians 10;.1-4, 9, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.”

    Yes, true, that Rock was Christ's coming, or a foreshadow of things to come, .. but NOT God turning into flesh and then coming into the world. That's why I pray my dear friend that you get out of this mocking of Christ's Church called the; "Christian Religion" with all their gods! Keep the Bible, you seem to understand it really well, .. all you have to do is drop their Indoctrinations, specifically this Trinity-teaching.

    with_all_humility said - Begotten Son of God:
    Jn 3.16:  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    The word begotten means: (typically of a man) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.  The man deposits his seed, Jesus is from the Seed of God.

    Absolutely not.
    Only the RCC created Christian Religion could make God into flesh through deceit, so at least in the minds of men through deception they could KILL GOD, .. That's Satan's  (sorry to put it like this, but) "wet dream", ..  to kill God and to replace Him with himself, .. above all that is called God, .. look:
    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
    And we know where is the Temple of God, supposed to be in us, .. we are that Temple.

    with_all_humility said - Jesus called God:
    Heb 1:8  But to the Son He says: "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.
    (The He, 5th word in the verse is God speaking...and He says "Your Throne, O GOD...) This verse is speaking to Jesus's Lordship over His kingdom.)

    My dearest friend, Oh Lord, .. how could I put it without offending you, .. but if you can't see the error in your, .. umm, .. Christian interpretation here, then I will pray for you even harder. Show me ONE place in the Bible where God would honor another God besides Him?
    Look, it's not "God talking to the son", it should say "of the son" not "to the son" the Word aka Jesus Christ, and him coming down "manifested in the flesh" and showing us, revealing to us the Father, just as Moses and all the Prophets have. It is the son of God Jesus saying: "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM." and not God saying this. Read the entire chapter and you will see this.

    with_all_humility said - 1 Tim 3.16:  “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 

    Only the pagan, plural gods worshipping Romans, lead by the "ruler of demons the Devil" would want to turn God into flesh, then kill him, .. all the while keep Jesus as a baby in the arms of their; "queen of heaven". Please read what all you quoted with an open mind, and ask yourself:
    Can Infinite empty Himself and become finite?
    Can God die? To even suggest such a thing is blasphemy.
    Can God be told what to say, or follow orders like Jesus said he did "I say what my Father tells me to say, which is waht I hear of my Father" etc., and remained obedient even unto death?
    Does God needs to be "raised above all powers and principalities, and then be received up into glory"?
    Can God be tempted?
    I could go on and on to prove to you that Jesus is NOT God, but this would go against the doctrines of your Religion which is the very foundation of Christianity, .. this three-gods-in-one god idea.
    I know, it has been so long, and 1,700 years Is a Long Time to indoctrinate the gentile world to understand that when we say God, or Jesus or mention the Bible, everyone automatically thinks; "Christian".
    Just like when people say "Globe Earth", .. or the Big-Bang story, or the word "Evolution", everyone thinks= "science".
    This is how we been taught, so I understand how difficult it is to remove the very foundation of our Religion. It's like giving up everything, even family, .. "who can do that?" But remember what Jesus said: "With God, all things are possible!"

    with_all_humility - Jesus is above angels.
    Heb 1.6-7:  But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." And of the angels, He says: "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS SPIRITS AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."

    Yes, by the command of God Himself, not by Jesus Christ.
    While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!

    That's right, for the son of God Word has been raised above all principalities and powers, but not to be God, nor does he consider himself as God. "All knee shall bow to the son" is what God Himself ordained. This is just like Joseph, who was raised up by Pharaoh to be in second place only to him. What Joseph said, went.
    But Joseph was never Pharaoh, just as Jesus will never be God, .. but will forever remain the son, obedient to God!

    Holy Spirit referred to as God
    with_all-humility - Act 5.3-4: But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back
    part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

    Note: First Peter says Ananias lied to the Spirit, and in the same breath he says "You have not lied to men but to God."

    Yes, he lied to God, just like if anyone of the Children of Israel lied to Moses, or if anyone brought before the church lies to us, would be considered that they lied to God. But this doesn't make Moses, the Holy Spirit or us Ministers of Christ God, .. even though God did make Moses God over Pharaoh, .. right?

    with_all_humility - As I've told you before, I don't prescribe to the doctrine of the Trinity that many teach especially that of the RCC, however, the scriptures do clearly put Christ at the right hand of God, the second highest position in Heaven and it testifies to Christ being part of the Godhead in Heaven.   

    Actually Jesus now has the first highest position, "of the created beings". He that denies the son, denies the Father also, so obviously God loves the son, but God remains Infinite and Eternal, which no created being could become. We can only live throughout eternity, not become Eternal.

    God has a lot of Angels, like Michael, .. and Spirits like the Holy Spirit helping him run both Heaven and Earth, and Jesus the son of God has been "raised above all of them", but God remains the only possible Infinite and Eternal-One, the conscious Infinite known as God, the great "I Am".

     Did you notice how this phrase "I Am" is being used in the media, .. in magazines, in music!?

    Image result for I Am magazine coverImage result for I Am magazine cover


    Image result for I Am magazine cover


    God bless you with wisdom that comes from His Holy Spirit, not this lying "Christian spirit".
    Erfisflat
  • @Evidence

    "This kind of explains it don't you think?   Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"
    • I'm familar with this passage, Death is in the world because of sin. Rom 5.12 reveals that death came into this world because of Adam and Eve's transgression in the Garden of Eden.  The writer of Hebrews states we were appointed unto death.  Heb 9.27-28:  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
    • Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    • In Rom 5 Paul is speaking of redemption by illustating the the story of two men. The first man disobeyed God and led the entire human race in the wrong direction. The second man obeyed God and provides justification for all who will turn to him in faith. No matter how devastating the sin of the first, the redemptive work of the second reverses the consequences of that sin and restores people to the favor of God. Only by grasping the seriousness of the first is one able to appreciate the remarkable magnanimity of the second.
    As for my statement of "It is unclear if Adam and Eve would experience death while in the garden, but they were cast out for fear of eating from the tree of life."
    • I don't believe it to be a sticking point, when I was writing by repsonce I was examining the words of Gen 3 closely and that while it appears that Adam and Eve would not experice physical death while in the Garden of Eden in light of verse like Rom 5.12.  Fore we know they could eat of every tree except the tree of knowledge.  If they had already eaten of the tree of life while in the garden, why was God concerned about casting them out of the Garden before the could eat of the Tree of Life?  
    • Gen 3.22-23:  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

      It is believed that the reason God casted them out of Garden before they could eat the Tree of Life, was because the would have become eternal beings "live forever" and would have been in an eternal state of sin. Thus the reason for state it is unclear if they would have die while in the Garden.  With that being said, one of the curses put on mankind is that of a physical death. Gen 3.19:  In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."


    Evidence
  • edited August 2018
    @Evidence

    "Did you notice how this phrase "I Am" is being used in the media,...in magazines, in music!?"
    • Yes, I believe it to be a shameful thing to mock God in such a way.  It shows how debased the world has become. :(

    Evidence
  • @Evidence

    with_all_humility said - Begotten Son of God:
    Jn 3.16:  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    The word begotten means: (typically of a man) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.  The man deposits his seed, Jesus is from the Seed of God.

    "Absolutely not."???

    Are you saying the Gospel of John is wrong?  I'm a little confused by your objection here.

    Heb 5:5  So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU."

    Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    1Jn 4:9  In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

    1Jn 5:1  Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.


    Christ is the begotten Son of God, the scriptures are clear on this.  

    Evidence
  • @Evidence

    "That's right, for the son of God Word has been raised above all principalities and powers, but not to be God, nor does he consider himself as God." 
    • I've never said that Christ was above God, Christ has repeatedly told people to not exault him above the Father.
    • Luk 18.19:  So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
    • Jn 10.25-38: Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.  But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.  I and My Father are one.” 

              Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.  Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

              The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    • Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’?  If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you                     say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?  If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”  Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. [1]

    Note that when Jesus says "I and My Father are one". This is being spoken of as of one purpose, not that They are litterally one entity.


    "Spirits like the Holy Spirit"

    • I believe there is only one Holy Spirit, the Comforter please note Ephesians 4 
    • Eph 4.1-6:  I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [2]

    Lastly you stated...

    "I could go on and on to prove to you that Jesus is NOT God, but this would go against the doctrines of your Religion which is the very foundation of Christianity, .. this three-gods-in-one god idea."

    I have not said that Jesus is God, I have only quoted scriptures from the new testament, Can we agree that there is not contradticion in the inspired text? 

    • 2Ti 3.16-17:  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and isprofitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 
    Again, I DO NOT prescribe to the doctine of trinity as taught buy the RCC.  But the scriptures do speak of a Godhead or of a Devinity 
    • Col 2.9-10:  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
    Of the Godhead - Of the Divinity, the divine nature - Greek (theotēs). The word is one that properly denotes the divine nature and perfections

    “Divinity,” “Godhead,” in Plutarch, Lucian, Themistios etc., common in Hermas.

    It occurs only once in the NT, Col. 2:9: ἐν αὐτῷ (Christ) κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς, Cf. 1:19f. The Εἷς θεός of the OT has attracted to Himself all divine power in the cosmos, and on the early Christian view He has given this fulness of power to Christ as the Bearer of the divine office.[3]


    [1] The New King James Version. (1982). (Jn 10:25–39). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

    [2] The New King James Version. (1982). (Eph 4:1–6). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

    [3] Kleinknecht, H., Quell, G., Stauffer, E., & Kuhn, K. G. (1964–). θεός, θεότης, ἄθεος, θεοδίδακτος, θεῖος, θειότης. G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 3, p. 119). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.


  • @with_all_humility

    You say ..... I could have cited all of these verses as well, but again the context is to the individual to help, not as a whole nation.......


    My reply ....I’m as you know a former RC we were always thought the core of the Bible was Love as in all Gods creatures 


    You say ......I don't find it incredible that an atheist can find verses (you also claimed to be a former RCC member) and many atheists simply copy paste from one of their websites.......


    My reply .....Why would I need namely a RC website ? A sizable amount of American Christians seem to have a detestation for Catholics why’s that ? 


    Why would you assume I’m copy and pasting ? 


    You say ......What I would find amazing is if you were using the verses that you cite in the correct context.  


    My reply .....I’m actually complimenting the teachings which are fairly straightforward and you’re using the Bible to condem my usage of such verses and I don’t accept the much favoured out of “context “ tactic 


    You  say ....Again from the verses I briefly reviewed the context is to the individual and not a whole nation.  So, you are miss applying these verses and taking them out of context and making a pretext......


    My reply ..... Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that the verses I’m using are incorrect a reading of them individually makes their meaning fairly straightforward 


    You say .....


    The charge here is for the individual Christian to aid his fellow human beings

    Even during the time of Moses, God did not charge the nation of Israel to care for the poor but instead charged each individual to look out for his fellow neighbor


    My reply .... That is all Christians to aid the poor as in if you are a so called Christian nation collectively it’s not borne out by the old chestnut as in “ you shall know them by their deeds “ 



    I said ..... Most are more or less greedy to an extent everything is relative, what about your military spending billions (if not more ) yearly is that really necessary?


    My reply .....

    Given the role (world police) that the US has taken on, yes the military spending budget is needed in order to defend against communism and extremest across the Globe.  Who else is going to do it?  ....


    My reply ....I don’t but that at all as in “ world police “ 


    You say ....Who else has a military big enough take on Russia or China?

    Who provides most of the funding for NATO?


    My reply .....


    The spending by the U S doesn’t represent money spent on behalf of NATO nor for NATO , they’re the TOTAL defence budgets of NATO members. 


    You shouldn’t believe most of what Trump says 


    I said ...But the Bible tells us not to judge yet you say we are too judge? 

    Your reply .....We have to use our brains to discern good from evil....correct?  In doing so you are judging a situation to be of sin or not of sin. We judge things every day in the life, we judge which food tastes better.  The charge given by God not to judge is to not condemn our brothers...that's it.  We must judge other matters that affect our lives. So, therefore, we cannot use a blanket statement not to judge anything. This would be speaking where the Bible does not speak.  1 Cor 5: The man sleeping with his father wives...was this man not judged to be in sin?  Yes, but in 2 Corinthians we find that he repents of his sinful deeds and is welcomed back into the church.  


    My reply ..... So we should like God consign someone to eternity in Hell to be consistent then ? 


    My reply...But you never answered why can a so-called loving god consign someone to hell for eternity?  Why can a loving God not forgive like he tells others to do?


    You said ....God is merciful and just and does not lie. So when one transgresses His law He must judge them and condemn them to hell.  


    My reply ..... The opposite of justice is injustices an eternity in Hell is unjust , I take it you also think certain crimes warrant such punishment? 


    You say .....Do you believe God should give the same reward to everyone regardless if they were obedient to him or not?  How would that be just?  If you get a 100% on a test to graduate a course, would you think it fair for the person who never studied to have their grade changed to 100% as well? So as to share in the glory and receive the same reward?.....


    My reply .... I’m all for forgiveness , if there is another realm where a god resides why not wipe the slate clean and forgive and reward all ?


    I said .....How come my moral compass is superior to gods? 


    You said  ......Wow, so your moral compass is superior to God"s...how might this be?  By what authority do you speak such things?


    My reply .....The Christian God according to the Bible has wiped out in the millions of his creations by famine , plagues , pestilence , petulant outbursts of rage etc , etc , he has also commanded his “ servants “ to slaughter women and unborn children .....


    I’ve never harmed a living being so am vastly superior regards morality , you worship a tyrant 



    I said .....Do you equally call anyone who disagrees with your worldview on politics, literature, philosophy etc, etc “misguided“? 



    My reply......For these things no, these are matters of judgment and do not matter in the scheme of life, everyone is entitled to their opinion on these matters...However, Biblical doctrine and attacking the scriptures spoken by the holy spirit I do take an offense to.


    My reply ..... I find it offensive that anyone stands by the immorality of them” Christian “ god


    You say .....Please do not get upset with my use of the word misguided, if it offends you, I apologize.  It was not my intent to offend you. Poor word selection on my part. But I do believe your understanding of the scriptures to not be accurate.  

    One last thing why do American Christians always have to get a jab in does it make one feel superior to something? 

    Again, I apologize for offending you. Was not intentional I do not feel any need to Jab someone in the eye. Humble apologies!

    If I have not addressed anything let me know, and I'll be sure to give an answer.



    My reply .... It’s all good , you’re a decent person and I like the way you stand up and defend your beliefs as do I , it’s all only debate and hackles on both sides will arise at times but like good sportsmen it all forgotten with a handshake at the close of play 



  • @Joeseph

    "My reply ....I’m as you know a former RC we were always thought the core of the Bible was Love as in all Gods creatures"
    • The theme or the core of the Bible is the redemption fo mankind, while Love plays a large part in redemption (Jn 3.16) I don't believe it to be the core element.  Love alone does not redeem man for his sins.  Many false doctrines/beliefs have been created on this idea. So going as far as to say all of mankind will be redeemed in the end.  This obviously could not be true or what would the purpose of the hell and the lake of fire sever.  
    Why would you assume I copy and paste? 
    • I did not assume that "you" copied pasted your response.  The point I was making or trying to make was that many atheists that I have debated in past have given me responses with numerous verses tied to their argument.  Upon a little investigating I find their response on some atheist website.  My point was that giving me several verses does not prove anything, that many atheists do the same.  The one thing that would be amazing is if you use the verses you cited in their correct context.  That is all, I did not mean to imply you copied your response.  From your responses thus far you seem to be an honest person so I did not feel the need to check your argument against other atheist websites. 
    "That is all Christians to aid the poor as in if you are a so-called Christian nation collectively it’s not borne out by the old chestnut as in “ you shall know them by their deeds"
    • Yes, disciples of Christ are to do good unto all men Gal 6.10, however, nowhere is there a verse that charges a whole nation 
    • The quote "You shall know them by their deeds" is taken out of context as well.  It is from Mat 7:16 and it says "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?" again context is everything and the verse right before verse 15 says "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves." so you have made a pretextual argument out of a verse that serves as a warning about false teachers
    • Context, Context, Context...It is very critical
    "I’m actually complimenting the teachings which are fairly straightforward and you’re using the Bible to condemn my usage of such verses and I don’t accept the much favored out of “context “ tactic" 
    • It is not a tactic at all, just as I showed you with the verse you used above.  You pulled it out of context to make your argument. I'll give you another pretext argument in the next bullet
    • Context is everything, its way to easy for someone to make a pretextual argument and say something that the Bible never said. Example: Mat 6.4: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."  Many Calvinist us this verse for their doctrine of election and if we read the verse all by itself it appears that only those who God draws (to pull) towards Christ will be accepted by Christ.  But that is not what is being said here, in context Jesus is only talking to the Jews.  Later Christ says in Jn 12.32: "And I if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." The context of this verse is talking about His resurrection and that Christ will draw all peoples.  Here the context is not only to the Jews but to the Gentiles as well.  So the Calvinist has made a pretextual argument.  
    "Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that the verses I’m using are incorrect a reading of them individually makes their meaning fairly straightforward"
    • Again, if I've understood you correctly you are trying to apply from the scriptures that Christians are to take care of the poor and unfortunate (Lk 10.25-37, Jam 1.26-27, Gal 6.10) which is true, but it does not apply to a nation as a whole.  You are trying to make the argument that the US is a Christian nation and therefor should be taking care of all of its poor and unfortunate.  The charge is for the individual disciple and not to the nation as a whole.  There is also no such thing as a Christian nation, The US was founded on Biblical principles but it is a nation that separates church and state.  It also does not discriminate again other religious views

    "The spending by the US doesn’t represent money spent on behalf of NATO nor for NATO, they’re the TOTAL defense budgets of NATO members. You shouldn’t believe most of what Trump says"

    Here are some charts to illustrate the order of magnitude on NATO funding...easy to find charts on the web.  


    Notice when we look at the cost sharing in dollars...


    So the US funds what 70-75% of NATO, now do not take that a gloating, quite the contrary I wish it was not so onesided.  However, there is the treat out there and the US is normally the primary nation to stand up against those threats.  Again, this is not about bragging rights, you brought up the issue, I'm just sharing the information.

    "So we should like God consign someone to an eternity in Hell to be consistent then?"

    • I'm not saying you have like anything, I'm just telling you God is fair and just.  Its just like how Paul described the purpose of the OT law. Rom 7.11-13:  "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.  Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.  Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful."  
    • Notice in the verses above Paul is saying that because of the Law he came to know Sin, and Sin produced death to all who were under the law. Yet Paul says the Law was Holy, just and good, why because it was God's law.  So even though the Law condemned all of man, it is through God's grace that he sent His Son who would provide the sacrifice to bring about remission of sins.  
    • So, yes, while we may not like the thoughts of Hell, we should be thankful that God has provided us an avenue into Heaven through His Son Jesus Christ.  However, you have the free will to reject Him
    "I’m all for forgiveness if there is another realm where a god resides why not wipe the slate clean and forgive and reward all?"
    • So is God, forgiveness is through His Son Jesus, those who confess him and are baptized into His death shall become new creatures free of sin and begin life anew.  (Rom 6.11, Rom 6.3, Rom 10.9, Gal 3.27 and so on)

    "The Christian God according to the Bible has wiped out in the millions of his creations by famine, plagues, pestilence, petulant outbursts of rage etc, etc , he has also commanded his “ servants “ to slaughter women and unborn children...I’ve never harmed a living being so am vastly superior regards morality, you worship a tyrant" 

    • You are entitled to your opinion, but to believe it unjust when a murder is sentenced to death or put behind bars for the remainder of their life?  Would you expect retribution if someone killed a member of your family or stole all of your possessions?  
    • Is there a purpose to even have justice in this world?
    • Usually, only those who live outside of Christ are offended by Him, this was one of the leading causes of existentialism.  People did not like God's rules and did not want to be bound by them.  Therefore the created began to worship the creation (Rom 1.18-32)
    "I find it offensive that anyone stands by the immorality of the ”Christian“ God"
    • I'm sorry you feel this way, seems a little judgemental would you not agree.  To paint everyone with a broad brush and to prejudge them based upon their belief?  Sounds a little like a tyrant, do you agree?
    "It’s all good, you’re a decent person and I like the way you stand up and defend your beliefs as do I, it’s all only debate and hackles on both sides will arise at times but like good sportsmen, it all forgotten with a handshake at the close of play"
    • I thank you for the kind compliment, I'm not here to push my beliefs upon anyone.  I just like a good discussion and will point out any misconceptions I see.  In the end, its all about communication, and one can have effective communication by saying or posting offensive things that offend or put up barriers between each other.  I've enjoyed answering your responses.  
    Evidence
  • @Evidence

    "This kind of explains it don't you think?   Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—"
    • I'm familar with this passage, Death is in the world because of sin. Rom 5.12 reveals that death came into this world because of Adam and Eve's transgression in the Garden of Eden.  The writer of Hebrews states we were appointed unto death.  Heb 9.27-28:  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
    • Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    • In Rom 5 Paul is speaking of redemption by illustating the the story of two men. The first man disobeyed God and led the entire human race in the wrong direction. The second man obeyed God and provides justification for all who will turn to him in faith. No matter how devastating the sin of the first, the redemptive work of the second reverses the consequences of that sin and restores people to the favor of God. Only by grasping the seriousness of the first is one able to appreciate the remarkable magnanimity of the second.
    As for my statement of "It is unclear if Adam and Eve would experience death while in the garden, but they were cast out for fear of eating from the tree of life."
    • I don't believe it to be a sticking point, when I was writing by repsonce I was examining the words of Gen 3 closely and that while it appears that Adam and Eve would not experice physical death while in the Garden of Eden in light of verse like Rom 5.12.  Fore we know they could eat of every tree except the tree of knowledge.  If they had already eaten of the tree of life while in the garden, why was God concerned about casting them out of the Garden before the could eat of the Tree of Life?  
    • Gen 3.22-23:  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

      It is believed that the reason God casted them out of Garden before they could eat the Tree of Life, was because the would have become eternal beings "live forever" and would have been in an eternal state of sin. Thus the reason for state it is unclear if they would have die while in the Garden.  With that being said, one of the curses put on mankind is that of a physical death. Gen 3.19:  In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."


    @with_all_humility ; good points, only we are still stuck in Christianity. I know how that feels, it's been like 10 years, and their indoctrination still pops up in my head and I start interpreting the Bible from a Christian, pagan perspective.

     Remember Jesus made it clear: "I am that bread from heaven, he that eats of me shall never die!" (paraphrased) 
    So look how we are to "eat' of the Word aka Jesus Christ?
    1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
    So praying, reading the Bible, etc.
    Now; "praying without ceasing" is not like the Christian (and them other Religions) teach, bobbing our heads towards some wall, or praying at least 5 times a day facing Mecca, or holding a Rosary and saying hundreds of prayers a day. Instead, it's about always having the Word of God in our minds.
    Our "spiritual life" depends on Christ for our sustenance, eating them words he spoke, .. or what God spoke through him. This is what Jesus meant when he told the disciples to eat of him, which of course was shocking to them, and they even went away from him, left him, remember?

    Bread is for our body, and the Bread of Life (now Jesus words) is daily food for our soul that "whoever takes of me, shall NEVER die". The physical bread, like the manna the Children of Israel ate in the desert is temporary, like you said, because that just gives temporary life: "from the ground we were taken, to dust we shall return", but that Spiritual food which is what we get by taking from the Tree of Life aka Jesus Christ will keep us alive forever.
    We don't become Eternal like God Is, but will keep us throughout eternity.

    The way I understand is that in that New Heaven and that New Earth, being inside our New incorruptible bodies there will be no sun or moon, no need for air or the oxygen in the air, but only God's presence, living in and by (eating, breathing) His son Word (what God tells us through Him).

    Gen 3.22-23:  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.

    These verses simply shows Adam and Eve what it is to rebel against God. It's like God saying: "Fine, you want to see what 'eating only physical food' is like? You think wisdom will keep you alive?" So God distanced Himself from them/us, and they started to get old, felt pain and suffered and eventually a slow death. Their entire life for the next 4,000 years, all the way up to the "Tree of Life" (John 3:16, .. etc.) coming again to us, was about "works", so man could learn that by "works" no man can be saved, .. or gain eternal life and live forever. This is why "Christians" went on a search for the Holy Grail, to gain eternal life by 'other means'. This is why Christians like the Mormons, ..  JW's try to live by "works", so they can "Live outside of taking of the Tree of Life" forever on planet earth, where they created their own imaginary paradise.
    Today it's 666CERN,  hoping that their gods will help them open a gate to eternal life, all because of Christian Doctrines invented 1,700 years ago that were created by the twisting of Gods "Word", .. just as the serpent did to Eve in the Garden.

    Genesis 3:24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Now please think about, and ask yourself this; what, or actually who is that "cherubim" that God placed so man could not get to the "tree of Life"?

    Ezekiel 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you;

    So the first was the cherubim Lucifer, the devil, the serpent that God once again placed there to "to guard the way to the tree of life". It is Satan who has created ideas of all those Religions with all them gods to keep man from 'seeing God'.

    OK, so what is the: ".. flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life." ?

    Revelations 1:16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword.

     When we go against Gods command, His Word becomes a "flaming sword", so it was the breaking these following commands that kept man from the tree of life. God put those words as "flaming swords" pointing in all direction in the face, in the hearts of man! It is God saying: "Remember what I commanded you!?"

    Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    God bless you.
  • @Evidence

    with_all_humility said - Begotten Son of God:
    Jn 3.16:  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    The word begotten means: (typically of a man) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.  The man deposits his seed, Jesus is from the Seed of God.

    "Absolutely not."???

    Are you saying the Gospel of John is wrong?  I'm a little confused by your objection here.

    Heb 5:5  So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU."

    Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

    1Jn 4:9  In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

    1Jn 5:1  Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.


    Christ is the begotten Son of God, the scriptures are clear on this.  


    @with_all_humility no my friend, I never said the Bible/Gospels to be wrong, but your Christian Interpretation of it is. But that's OK, once God opens your eyes to the deception, and reveal who He Is through a proper interpretation of Scripture, you will become stronger, more armed with truth. You already know the Bible, now it's just the 'deprogramming' part, removing the idea that somehow "Christian" has Anything to do with the Bibles interpretation, or that the gods in Christianity have anything to do with our Creator and His son Word.

    This is why so many intelligent atheists can't except their Biblical Creator, because Christianity with their doctrines have so perverted who Biblical God is, that they don't want anything to do with Him, and then to make Jesus equal with, or a third of God makes no sense for them!?

    OK, let's go back to the word begotten, and hopefully you can see the huge difference between; 'begotten of God', .. 'begotten of Adam', and "begotten of the seed of Abraham'!?

    First, John 1:1-

    This explains clearly how God started to create, and what He created first, or; "what was the first of All Gods creation"?

    In the beginning was the Word, John 1:1-

    • Infinite has no beginning nor end, so this is about “a” beginning 'with God', not a beginning 'of' God

    • who is the “Word”? We know it's God's Only Begotten Son, correct?


    and the Word was with God,

    • just as Eve was with Adam


    and the Word was God.

    • just as “Eve was Adam”

    We don't say Adam was a duality, that Eve is a person that completes Adam, right?

    2 He was in the beginning with God.

    • God has no beginning nor end, but the Son is both the beginning AND the end of all creation

    • He the Word, was in the beginning of all creation with God, just as in the beginning of populating the earth, Eve was with Adam. So just as through the son Word God created everything, the same way through the image of the son; Eve, all human life came from, and through her.


    3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

    • God manifested, or beget himself a body which He named Word, and called him his Son, the only begotten son of God through whom God created all things, the Son being the first of all His creations.

    Colossians 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. .. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth


    As we can clearly see that God is Infinite Spirit, and you cannot duplicate Infinite. But, .. God can create something in His image, which He did, an exact likeness of Himself, only in a created form with free will. The created always has a beginning, but Infinite/God does not.
    Infinite doesn't have a 'seed', nor does the son 'Word' for there are no giving in marriage in Heaven. Everything and everyone in Heaven, God created beginning with His son Word.

    God's son Word was 'transplanted' by Gods Holy Spirit into a physical human virgin by God first creating a DNA of him that best described him in a physical body, and had the sons spirit enter that body, which through the usual 9 months gestation was born out of water like we were, but the spirit of him is the same one that was in Heaven with God, His son Word. This is why it says: And the Word became flesh.

    So you see, God didn't have sex with Mary (which is if we compare the word 'begotten' to Abraham, or like we have children, that is what it sounds like), but God transplanted a DNA data He created that best described His son Word, and this is how the Word became flesh.

    We have to consider the entire Bible, and us created in His image to understand this, not just go by the Christian interpretation selecting, or cherry-picking some verses here and there to create an idea, .. but using facts we have accumulated by observing the world around us, how we might do things, and what's described in the Bible.

    Acts 13:31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.
    33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:‘You are My Son,
    Today I have begotten You.’
    34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:
    ‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’

    BEGOTTEN, .. you don't think Jesus was begotten after he was baptized as the Christians falsely make it out to be? God didn't say "today I have begotten you" after Jesus was baptized, look:

    Luke 3:21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized;
    and while He prayed, the heaven was opened.
    22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him,
    and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

    Remember that the Son willingly gave up his high position, and a life of perfection and became lower than the Angels and became sin for us. So God reaffirms him as His son:
    Psalm 89:27
    I will indeed appoint him as My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

    The phrase: "Today I have begotten you" was referring to the prophesies, Gods reaffirmation, .. not that it set a time when Jesus becomes Gods son.

    Psalm 2:1 Why do the nations rage,
    And the people plot a vain thing?
    2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
    And the rulers take counsel together,
    Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
    3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
    And cast away Their cords from us.”

    4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
    The Lord shall hold them in derision.
    5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
    And distress them in His deep displeasure:
    6 “Yet I have set My King
    On My holy hill of Zion.”

    7 “I will declare the decree:
    The Lord has said to Me,
    ‘You are My Son,
    Today I have begotten You.
    8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
    The nations for Your inheritance,
    And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
    9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
    You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.'

    .. 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry and you perish in your rebellion, when His wrath ignites in an instant. Blessed are all who take refuge in Him.

    God bless you.
  • edited August 2018
    @Evidence

    Hey buddy, I'm not stuck in Christian denominationalism, but stuck on the Word of God.  You are correct the that Christ is the bread of life.  Joh 6:27  Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." and Joh 6:33  For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

    If we are in Christ we are of Christ and those who are in Christ will have ever lasting life.

    "We don't become Eternal like God Is, but will keep us throughout eternity."
    • Act 13:48  Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
    • Rom 2:7  eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    • Rom 5:21  so that as sin reigned in death, even so, grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    • Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    • 1Ti 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
    • 1Ti 6:19  storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
    • Tit 1:2  in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
    • Tit 3:7  that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    • 1Jn 1:2  the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us
    • 1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
    • 1Jn 5:11  And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    • 1Jn 5:13  These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
    • 1Jn 5:20  And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
    • Jud 1:21  keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
    I believe I see a recurring theme and that is that those who are in Christ will receive the gift of eternal life.  The question becomes what is it to be "in Christ" or "to put on Christ"

    "Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
    • Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    • And sin separates us from God consider Isa 59:1-2  Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear.  But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden His face from you So that He will not hear.\
    • Eph 2.1-2:  And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    • Rev 2.11:  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.' (Those who overcome sin or are faithful followers of Christ and the Holy Spirit will not be hurt by the second death.  The second Death is, of course, being cast in the Lake of Fire or one being cast down into hell.
    "This is why "Christians" went on a search for the Holy Grail, to gain eternal life by 'other means'. This is why Christians like the Mormons, ..  JW's try to live by "works", so they can "Live outside of taking of the Tree of Life" forever on planet earth, where they created their own imaginary paradise."
    • Well I would say that people claiming to "Christians" went on a search for the Holy Grail, the OT should have given them a clue that God puts no value in engraved images or any other earthly symbol like the "Golden Calf"
    • You are awful hard on Christians, but not all who claim to be disciples of Christ are faithful followers of Christ.  
    • I'm still researching the name "Christian" based upon what you've told me 

    "the cherubim Lucifer"

    • First, Lucifer is a star, a morning star to be exact (Isa 14:12  "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!) 
    • The Ultimate Scriptural Cross Reference Treasury states - Luciferor, day star. i.e. morning star, *Srongs# H1966, only here.  See 2Pe 1:19Rev 2:28Rev 22:16, Which properly is a bright and eminent star, which ushers in the sun and the morning; but is here metaphorically taken for the high and mighty king of Babylon. And it is a very usual thing, both in prophetical and profane writers, to describe the princes and potentates of the world under the title of the sun or stars of heaven. Some understand this place of the devil; to whom indeed it may be mystically applied; but as he is never called by this name in Scripture, so it cannot be literally meant of him, but of the king of Babylon, as is undeniably evident from the whole context, which certainly speaks of one and the same person, and describes him as plain as words can do it (Matthew Poole). Worshipped by the Assyrians as male at sunrise, female at sunset (CB). 1Pe 5:8. [1]
    • son of the morning. The title of son is given in Scripture not only to a person or thing begotten or produced by another but also in general to any thing which is any way related to another; in which sense we read of a son of stripesDeu 25:2; the son of a nightJon 4:10; a son of perditionJoh 17:12; and, which is more agreeable to the present case, the sons of ArcturusJob 38:32 (Matthew Poole). [1]
      Rev 22:16  "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.")
    • Second, how do you know the devil the serpent of old was a cherubim?  Rev 20:1-3:  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things, he must be released for a little while.
    • I don't know how much stock I would put into Ezekiel 28 as a proof text of Satan being the Gate Keeper of Eden.  One really has to be careful when interpreting prophets of old, sometimes we read into their prophetic language more than we ought to.  

      Below is an excerpt from the Word commentary on Ezekial 28.1-20 take it for what it is worth.  It is just another man's opinion.  Note the very last paragraph.  

      Ezekiel’s necessary task was to counter a mood of optimism among the Jewish exiles. Stunned as they were at Jerusalem’s fall, they were evidently clutching at a straw offered to them by their fellow exiles from Tyre. With a shift of confidence, they imagined that Tyre’s resistance to the besieging Babylonians might mean a turning of the tide for them. The prophet reacts to this chauvinist reading of current affairs with a divine no. Yahweh was working in a more radical way. The old order had to go completely before a new day of salvation and blessing could dawn. Vv 2–10 and 12–19, rhetorically addressed to one termed Tyre’s ruler and king, respectively, are two striking attempts to communicate this political and theological truth.

      The first puts Tyre firmly in its place as essentially a human, and therefore weak, an entity whose commercial affluence had gone to its head and whose efforts at resistance were perilously tantamount to pretensions of divine power. Such lay only with Yahweh and with those whom he chose as his agents. Tyre was guilty of hubris, and in reprisal had to be horribly struck down. The prophet’s coloring of the political map with these theological hues comes over with compelling persuasiveness. It is emotionally reinforced by wordplay, a technique that exerted much influence on the Hebrew ear. Tyre’s wealth (חיל) had in it the seeds of profanation, wounding and slaying (חלל). Tyre’s sense of security grounded in economic power and natural resources was to be rudely shattered by political events controlled by Yahweh himself.

      The second message is much more dramatic. Rather like the ship metaphor of chap. 27, it superimposes negative imagery of ruined grandeur on Tyre’s cultural success and self-confidence. Despite regrettable difficulties of interpretation in so many of its details, the general picture of Paradise lost shines through clearly. Tyre was not self-made, but as a created entity owed its prosperity and glory to a divine endowment. Yet privilege had not been matched with moral responsibility. “Violence,” ever a besetting sin in the prophetic vocabulary, had accompanied its rise to power. The tragic truth was that Tyre’s wrongdoing contained the seeds of its own destruction, which Yahweh’s intervention would encourage to germinate and grow into a baneful harvest. Three times it is stressed that moral failure must result in loss of fortune and in subjection to a terrible fate. Moreover, there is a religious theme that seems to run through the Oracle. The monarch in his role as priest-king is evidently accused of misrepresenting true religion, despite the strong religious basis of his rule.

      Ezekiel had two perceptions of reality, whereas his fellow exiles had only one. With prophetic insight and boldness, he was able to judge one perception by the standards of the other and to find it wanting. In a radical reinterpretation of current affairs, he was enabled to grasp that the most solid and settled expression of human power was ephemeral if it took issue with the moral and providential will of God. He was one with Paul the apostle: “We look not to the things that are seen, but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal” (2 Cor 4:18). Luke was aware of Ezekiel’s message: by coloring the narrative of Acts 12:20–23 with tints derived from the palette of Ezekiel 28:2–10, if not 2–19 (cf. Strom, NTS 32 [1986] 289–92), he used the death of Herod to affirm the triumph of God’s moral will in the interests of his covenant people. [2]

      Here is more of a breakdown of the words in Ezekial 1-20

      1–2 The target of the judgment oracle is the ruler of Tyre, Ethbaal II. His claims centered in the impregnability of his island city and the survival of his power. These claims were doubtless echoed by or attributed to him by Tyrian exiles known to Ezekiel and his Jewish compatriots in Babylonia (cf. Katzenstein, History of Tyre 307). For Ezekiel, they constituted a challenge to God and his ongoing purposes, which were bound up with the success of Babylonian interests. The self-confidence of the king, who functions also as a symbolic figure for the city-state of Tyre, was an attitude of proud defiance against Yahweh as well as against Nebuchadnezzar. The claim to divinity is a stronger expression of Isaiah’s characterization of Judah’s allies in an earlier confrontation between Mesopotamia and the west: “The Egyptians are men and not God” (Isa 31:3). Whether an ancient Near Eastern concept of divine kingship has contributed to the imagery (cf. Zimmerli 78; Eichrodt 390) is by no means certain.

      3–5 The note of excess is sounded now in a claim (הנה “behold” has an ironic force, “obviously”) to a wisdom greater than that of most men. Daniel, as in 14:14, 20, functions as a figure from remote antiquity, who appears in Ugaritic literature, in the Aqhat epic (esp. ANET 153–54a), as a ruler who practiced magical wisdom (see Day, VT 30 [1980] 174–84). The pride of the Tyrian king is now linked with his commercial wealth, which in his own eyes makes him more than a match for Nebuchadnezzar.

      6–10 The ruler has reckoned without Yahweh. His brazen challenge was to find a reprisal in Yahweh’s punishment, to be meted by cruel “aliens,” who for the reader, as for Ezekiel’s hearers, stand for the Babylonian army (cf. 26:7). It would patently disprove Ethbaal’s quasi-divine claims upon life and power by establishing his mere humanity—in death. Not only would the external evidences of human power be attacked, but its very heart, life itself, would pass away. The place where Tyre ruled the waves in commercial power would become the place of its downfall. This ironic reversal would be the final proof of the falsity of present claims. The event would overtake Tyre and its ruler with an unanswerable counter-argument. As to the reality of such a future event, Ezekiel pledges God’s own promise. In vv 8 and 10 an ignominious death is in view. Heb. חלל “slain” functions in the context as shorthand for חללי חרב “slain by the sword,” an idiom for violent death whose victims forfeited proper burial and a normal resting place in Sheol (cf. Eissfeldt, Studies in Prophecy 81 n. 22), as did those who died uncircumcised (see 31:17, 18 and Comment).

      11–14 On another occasion Ezekiel delivered a prophetic lament which with eloquent finality attested the reality of Tyre’s downfall by projecting it into the past. Unfortunately, the passage leaves the reader uncertain as to how to interpret some of its details. Basically, it makes use of a version of the garden of Eden story that appears in Gen 2–3. The description of the garden as “the garden of God” accords with 31:8–9 and is comparable with the phrase “garden of Yahweh” in Gen 13:10 and Isa 51:3. Yet this version knows nothing of the serpent or the first woman; it credits the first man with wisdom and adorns him in bejeweled clothing and apparently leaves him dead (cf. May, Israel’s Prophetic Heritage 168; McKenzie, JBL 75 [1956] 326). However, it does speak of the garden of Eden and expulsion from it, of moral perfection before a fall and of one cherub who is the agent of expulsion (cf. further Yaron, ASTI 3 [1964] 154). To what extent Ezekiel is retelling an oral tradition known to him we cannot know. He obviously adapts the tradition to the Tyrian situation (cf. Fohrer 162), but whether to this end he created other elements that do not belong to the Adam and Eve story in Genesis and/or whether he is fusing different creation myths known to him is tantalizingly uncertain (cf. Williams, BTB 6 [1976] 49–61, who seems, however, to go too far in seeing merely Ezekiel’s imagination at work).

      Does the first-man imagery begin with v 12b or with v 13? Is the seal or signet ring simply an object of artistic beauty or does it consciously have a royal reference, as in Jer 22:24; Hag 2:23? Does it characterize the king of Tyre as Yahweh’s vassal or instrument of authority? And is kingship already associated with the traditional story used by Ezekiel (cf. e.g., Ps 8:6[5]b)? The metal settings, if such they are, in v 13b seem to echo the beautiful seal (תכנית “intricate design,” v 12, כוננו “were prepared,” v 13). The reference to wisdom seems to allude to the king rather than to the seal: it is to be resumed in the perversion of his wisdom at v 17. A wisdom motif is part of the creation and first man traditions in the Old Testament, e.g., in Job 15:7–8 (Habel, Concordia Theological Monthly 38 [1967] 519).

      The role of the precious stones in v 13 is not clear. Are they worn by the king or do they feature in his topographical environment, as vv 14bβ and 16bβ more naturally suggest, if they are the equivalent of the fiery stones (אבני אש) mentioned there? Perhaps they are not meant to be the same, and we are to envisage a more complex picture involving stones of two kinds (cf. Yaron, ASTI 3 [1964] 38–39). The listing of nine jewels in a gold setting at v 13 is evidently borrowed from the catalog of twelve jewels mounted in gold which were attached to the high priest’s breast piece according to Exod 28:17–20; 39:10–12. The order is slightly different. The LXX reinforces the reference by listing all twelve stones. The list has been regarded as redactional (e.g., Zimmerli 82; Wevers 217), although, if so, it is valuable early evidence of interpretation of the message. However, the frequent use of the language of P by Ezekiel (cf. here the stem ברא “create” in vv 13, 15) may indicate that the prophet borrowed the list (Gowan, When Man Becomes God 83) in order to express the privilege of wealth with which the king was endowed as Yahweh’s creature and perhaps to indicate the role of the king of Tyre as priest-king, in line with the religious references elsewhere in the passage. The difference in the order and number of gems may indicate inexact reminiscence of a written text.

      A threefold chain of divinely given endowments commences with a reference to the cherub or attendant sphinx-like creature of mixed animal and human appearance. In the second link of the chain, the reference to the holy mountain of God (or the gods) complicates the picture. It sounds like Mount Zaphon in N. Syria, in Ugaritic mythology the abode of the gods, rather than a place for human habitation. It is likely that its polemical transfer to the sanctuary of Zion (cf. Ps 48:3[2]) was in Ezekiel’s mind, and that he projected it onto Tyre, where the king traditionally was also a priest (cf. v 18; cf. Bogaert, Homo Religiosus 9 [1983] 139, who, however, believes that an oracle originally relating to Jerusalem has been amplified and reapplied to Tyre). Widengren usefully compared בכל־הר קדשי “in all my holy mountain” at Isa 11:9 in a description of the return of Paradise (Ascension of the Apostle 97).

      The fiery stones have been compared with a divine garden in the Mesopotamian Gilgamesh epic, in which the fruit and leaves of the trees took the form of jewels (ANET 89), but other suggestions are not lacking (cf. Zimmerli 93).

      15–19 The narrative takes a sinister turn, with a willful moral decline. Vv 16–18 present an emphatic threefold account of human sin and divine punishment. In each case a double sin meets a double reprisal. In the reference to commerce (vv 16, 18) contemporary reality mingles with the tradition. Commerce gave rise to oppression and to the arrogance (cf. vv 2, 5) that is the stepchild of privilege, and to perverse use of the gift of wisdom. The religious allusion in v 18aβ is not clear: it may be a reference to the pagan religion of the priest-king.

      The punishment first keeps to the storyline, expulsion from the garden—the place of privilege—at the hands of Yahweh and the attendant cherub. The ensuing descriptions of retribution speak more generally of social humiliation and of Yahweh’s triggering the providential fate inherent in the human situation, although in the latter case the fiery stones appear to put their fire to new use (cf. v 14bβ), which may be linked with the “flaming sword” of Gen 3:24. In v 19a the motif of shock resumes a note struck in the two previous chapters (26:16; 27:35). As the refrain of v 19b implies, Tyre’s fate was sealed.

      The application of vv 11–19 to Satan by third and fourth-century a.d. Church Fathers, Tertullian, Origen, John Cassian, Cyril of Jerusalem and Jerome, and thence in some modern popular conservative expositions, is based on MT’s equation of the king and cherub and on comparison with Isa 14:12–15. It is a case of exegeting an element of Christian belief by means of Scripture and so endeavoring to provide it with an extrabiblical warrant and to fit the passage into the framework of the Christian faith. However, it is guilty of detaching the passage from its literary setting (Ellison 108–9). [3]

      The big take away is less if the imagery is of Satan but more about the fate to King 

      Many blessings!


      [1] Poole, Matthew. A Commentary on the Holy Bible. London: Banner of Truth Trust, 1962. Reprinted 1968. Originally published in 1683 and 1685. Three volumes.

      [2] Allen, L. C. (1998). Ezekiel 20–48 (Vol. 29, pp. 95–96). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

      [3] Allen, L. C. (1998). Ezekiel 20–48 (Vol. 29, pp. 93–95). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.
  • Joeseph said:
    @Joeseph ;

    Evidence - ......What I like about you is that you are not one of those "Christian-sheep's in wolves clothing!"

    My reply ..... People talk about the threat Muslims pose worldwide as we live in a very volatile world ,I do not fear Muslims , my biggest fear are American Fundies like you and Erisflat who demonize and label  everyone who is different , debate sites now are full of people like you who refer to me as a facist , a Nazi and a Satanist I’ve never been any of what you say I am .

    I grew up in Detroit Michigan in the late 60's through the 80's, as Muslim immigration was taking over my neighborhood. I went to school with Muslims, and out of 100, I found only a handful that had a moral compass that worked. This is not about being different, there were 40 kids in my "English my second language" class, half were from different countries. Most of my Muslim classmates believed that it was just to rape a girl (Muslim or not) who has been raped by other Muslims. But that was just one of the many unimaginable moral values they held unto, and held onto with your life, not theirs.

    I already explained the similarities of Satanist and Evolutionists, and religious atheists, .. so I'll just leave it at that, unless you have other questions?

    Joeseph - I have never anywhere from any country experienced such hatred of Atheists as the from the American Christian community , there is one genuinely decent Christian on here as in with humility there are I’m sure more .

    You said "American Christian Community", I am not a Christian, but even so, I haven't see this "hatred of atheists" from American Christians, can you show me where you seen or experienced this?

    You know in debate anyone can defend their beliefs, not just you, right?

    Joseph - Most Americans Christians believe it’s their right to carry a gun can you honestly see Jesus being happy with this ?

    Christians do believe in carrying their guns, but that's their "constitutional right", are you against that 'right'? Again, I don't believe in bearing arms, I believe in what Jesus taught, "turn the other cheek", maybe because I am not a 'Christian'!?

    Joeseph - Most American Christians detest the notion of free healthcare for all , just like Jesus thought ?

    Under our present Government, 'Free Healthcare" would be the finalization of Agenda 21, 2030, so yes, that would be a nightmare. But under Christ, free healthcare would be the norm.

    Joeseph - Most American Christians abhor the idea of a basic minimum wage 

    Care to elaborate on that?

    Joeseph - Tell me this if as you say if America is a “ Christian “ nation built on Christian values how come 40 million odd Americans are in a state of need ? 

    Because it was a Christian Nation with Christian values, not Christs values, which is why slavery lasted as long as it did in this country.

    Joeseph - How come all you so called devout Christians are not alleviating the suffering of your fellow Americans , most of yous claim to be Christians don’t you ?

    Again, I am not a Christian with "Christian values", me and my wife help as many people as we can, from teen girls kicked out of their homes by atheist parents, to a lot of poor in the Philippines and so on, and you would not believe how much help even my Social Security and my wife's minimum wage can afford!? 

    Any other "Christian" questions?", .. maybe you should direct them at a "Christian", don't you think? I follow "the Way", any questions, please look in the Bible in the New Testament part, and if you have any questions on 'that', I will be more than happy to answer. But you keep coming at me with Christian problems, and then when I answer, you accuse me of being cruel and mean, .. like your perverted idea of Bible God,  hey, we'll have misunderstandings, it's inevitable in an honest debate.

    Joseph - The reason I detest the Bible is because I know it back to front and have studied it for many years people like you and the possibly the insane Erisflat rely on the Bible to inform your worldview that the earth is flat and anyone who disagrees is more or less a Satanist , over here people like you and him would be rightly seen as mentally unbalanced but are possibly the norm over there , yous sound exactly the same as Muslims I debated last year who claim the earth was flat as a carpet .

    I only likened BB story and the Evolution story to Satanism, and I shown my reasons many times both by videos, pictures, pseudoscientific claims, experiments etc. and as far as the Flat Earth goes, my friend @Erfisflat does a great job of presenting a lot of evidence and good responses to any questions. Convinced me, so he's got to be good, right? But then I'm not in any Religion, so I am not tied down to any man made doctrines, it helps to see facts much easier without having Religion riding on your back.

    I'm with Jesus, his yoke is easy, and his burden light, unlike the Christian Jesus.

    Joeseph - When believers use “ sacred “ works to dismiss basic science thats a problem for everyone else , you are doing and using the self same logic as ISIS as in “ well it’s in the Bible /Quran it must be right “ the tragedy is you cannot and don’t want to see this as it totally shatters your worldview .

    I guess you don't know where these ideas of space, planets, Big Bangism and all the other pseudoscientific ideas like a Globe earth in the midst of pagan god-planets come from do you? Talking about "sacred works", wow, we're talking about ancient religions that go way back before Noah!

    See, this is the problem Joeseph, that people run into religions like Christianity, and then run around for years trying to find a Christian Denomination they can fit into without praying and reading the Bible first. Then when they do find a church they like, they end up being convinced to vote for Nazi presidents like the Bushes, who organize a Satanic sacrifice like in 9-11 for their gods, and then blame it on countries they want to rob, and offer more women and innocent children to their gods.

    You will never find God with the Religious ideologies that I've seen you harbor, never. But then, are you even looking for God, or just happy debasing Religions and their versions of gods? The problem there is that life becomes meaningless, and you end up suffering in either case, only you won't never know why? So you'll go back blaming the likes of me an Erfisflat, who are really and honestly trying to help you!

    Joeseph - How come your lot have not got one shred of scientific evidence for your many claims ?   Not even one for a god  ? I guess it must be a big old conspiracy by nonbelievers to keep the “ real “ truth out ? 

    This is exactly what I mean, .. do you honestly want to live in denial the rest of your life? I gave you evidence of God 'outside of Religion' or any of their doctrines, and Erfisflat gave you a plethora of evidence for a flat earth, but you go right back to pretending you didn't read any of it like you just did again above.

    Just remember, we're both here for you, we feel it is our God given duty to release people from the chains of ancient indoctrination and MK-ultra programming.

    Joeseph - The truth is you are too terrified to challenge or question your worldview or else the indoctrination process was a complete success and you’re too far gone .

    Well, OK then buddy, go ahead and say what you want, I hope it makes you happy? Here, let me turn you my other cheek.

    Joeseph - Reply if you wish or don’t , I care not as I’m sick and tired of pack dog rabid American fundies coming out with the same tired old nonsense.

    As always, we reply, not just out of curtesy, but like I said, out of duty to our fellow humans.

    Joeseph - I do not hate anyone my wife and family are Catholic I’m surrounded by Christians and they accept me as I do them for the way they are , I volunteer for charities and me and my wife assist the homeless and try to be good people .

    There you go, the Christian gods accept you, and NASA will not turn any extra donations, or globe-supporters down either. You may even look into 666CERN worship of the most modern sci-fi gods, I hear Shiva, and ISIS are popular this year, and you will be held as a "scientific minded, intelligent person".

    Joeseph - BTW you claim certain people who claim they are  Christians you say are not which is yet another of your many fallacies ...….

    OK, that's understandable, you are surrounded by RCC Christians, and so if anyone mentions the Bible, or God, or Trinity, it's all the same to you; "Christian". You live on this tiny planet, in the middle of nowhere for no reason, and it's all Christian. You do know that Islam was created by Christians, right?

    Joeseph - The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in fact it has.

    If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”, the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:

    (1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.

    (2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

    Therefore:

    (3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.

    Therefore:

    (4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

    This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable.

    Have you seen the movie:  "Truman Show" ? Imagine all you know is NASA space with imaginary planets, no God because, well, a Jesuit priest invented an expanding vacuum that came about with a Big-Bang all by itself from nothing, thus, like the "No True Scotsman fallacy" there is no true God, or Creator, things just evolve as they expand on this Spacetime Fabric because those who know, told you so!

    Joeseph - I’m a former Catholic and a devout one what changed my mind about a belief in god is I could not find one shred of evidence to sustain my belief any longer , that’s me being true to myself but most American so called Christians see that as such a great sin that it deserves an eternity in Hell .

    Yes, .. that is what Christian would say, .. but I say; you are on your way to finding God, the Only Possible One. The first thing anyone finding the One True and Only Possible Infinite/God is by leaving their Religion. Now you have to distance yourself from its indoctrinations, only that will take some time, because as far as I can see from your writing, all you know is RCC Christian. The universe with the globe etc. all Christian.

    Joeseph - Tell me honestly which I doubt you will what crime merits eternity in Hell ?

    Well, according to the Bible, it's coming to know God (like the Jews at the time Christ walked the earth, and the RCC created Christians who read and know the Bible backwards) and make God out to be Beelzebub, or the devil, just like what the Christian Trinity Doctrine does.

    You see it cannot be forgiven because it's an open lie, and they know deep inside them that it's a lie. So how could God forgive an open lie, choosing to live a lie, .. how? They won't repent of it, because they don't see anything to repent from!

    Like the Jews knew Jesus was the Messiah, they were waiting for the Messiah at that exact time, because they knew the OT Bible that he was to come at that time, yet when he came, they denied him even after all the miracles that he did, .. simply because they didn't like his teaching, or his "Goodie-two-shoes" attitude. This is why the Jews and the gentiles started to call his followers Christian, because it was the same like "Goodie-two-shoes", or sissy.   The Jews wanted a War-rior something like David, only far more powerful to take down the whole Roman army, and make the Jews, lead by their hypocritical Pharisees as Kings and rulers over the earth!

    Instead, here was a goodie-two-shoes, .. gentle speaking lamb, who not only took a slap in the face, but "turned the other cheek" for more!? If that wasn't bad enough, he told his disciples to do the same! And WHAT? Instead of an eye for an eye, they were to "love their enemies as they loved themselves"? Does he even know how the Jews love themselves?" Oh No, .. no way they were going to put up with this gentle soul, what kind of Earthly Rule they would have? And what was that, .. throw down your weapons and take up the armor of God: "having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God"!? No Weapons?

    You see, this is why after Jesus went back up to Heaven, 300 years later the Jews gave up all their books, or at least gave copies of them to the Romans, they waited some more for their desired Messiah but he didn't come, so they might as well let the Romans have it! And the Romans took it alright, and created the mock Christian Religion out of it, this is why the Christian armies are the most powerful, because their King is Not Jesus Christ, but the Jesus-god, or the sun-god they call Jesus they bear the sword and not the cross, they turn others cheeks and not their own, and best of all, instead of helping the widows and the orphans, they "rob the widows and rape and sacrifice the orphans"!

    Now do you see the difference between Christian and me, a follower of the Way!?

    Joeseph - I’m a mere human and as a judge I could  not consign someone to eternity in Hell no matter how bad the crime , how come my morality is superior to your gods ? 

    Like I said, the only sin that is not forgivable is "blasphemy against God, against His Holy Spirit", which searches the deepest wisdom of God. It's not some crime really, but an ongoing blasphemy against Gods very nature, that's what this Trinity Doctrine that makes God into a human, .. kills him, and lifts Him back up and puts Him on a Roman Cross bleeding and suffering for their pleasure!

    You see, reading the Bible and following Jesus teaching is good, but this Christian Religion is committing blasphemy for sure. It would of been better for them not to have read the Bible than knowing it even backwards, and accepting the blasphemous teaching/doctrines of this blasphemous Christin Religion.

    Joeseph - Do you never honestly ask yourself these questions ? 

    No, not anymore, because I don't adhere to any Religious doctrine and their twisted view of Scripture. I would really advise you to read the Bible away from this RCC Christian influence, as if for the first time. Pray, .. not to Mary or Jesus-sun-god, but to Infinite and Eternal God Himself through His son Word aka Jesus Christ.

    Joeseph - BTW I don’t mention where I’m from because anytime I do American Christians like you and Erfisflat brand me a , Socialist,Nazi or a “ red “ it’s boring at this stage really

    That's funny, reading your posts I see a lot of fight in you, calling God, .. the Bible, and even gentle-lamb of God Jesus Christ all kinds of blasphemous names and titles, so I don't buy this "you and Erfisflat will call me a Socialist Nazi" that this would even phase you!?

    If your posts sound Socialist Nazi-ish, then why can't we call a spade a spade? Look at your posts my friend, we're just defending the faith which we worked hard for! We seek evidence before we believe, .. and you even admit you don't go by faith, but just accept, especially from those who "claim to know bwtter".


    Erfisflat
  • @Evidence

    Hey buddy, I'm not stuck in Christian denominationalism, but stuck on the Word of God.  You are correct the that Christ is the bread of life.  Joh 6:27  Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." and Joh 6:33  For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

    If we are in Christ we are of Christ and those who are in Christ will have ever lasting life.

    "We don't become Eternal like God Is, but will keep us throughout eternity."
    • Act 13:48  Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
    • Rom 2:7  eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    • Rom 5:21  so that as sin reigned in death, even so, grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    • Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    • 1Ti 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
    • 1Ti 6:19  storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
    • Tit 1:2  in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
    • Tit 3:7  that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    • 1Jn 1:2  the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us
    • 1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
    • 1Jn 5:11  And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    • 1Jn 5:13  These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
    • 1Jn 5:20  And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
    • Jud 1:21  keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
    I believe I see a recurring theme and that is that those who are in Christ will receive the gift of eternal life.  The question becomes what is it to be "in Christ" or "to put on Christ"

    "Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
    • Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    • And sin separates us from God consider Isa 59:1-2  Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear.  But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden His face from you So that He will not hear.\
    • Eph 2.1-2:  And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    • Rev 2.11:  'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.' (Those who overcome sin or are faithful followers of Christ and the Holy Spirit will not be hurt by the second death.  The second Death is, of course, being cast in the Lake of Fire or one being cast down into hell.
    "This is why "Christians" went on a search for the Holy Grail, to gain eternal life by 'other means'. This is why Christians like the Mormons, ..  JW's try to live by "works", so they can "Live outside of taking of the Tree of Life" forever on planet earth, where they created their own imaginary paradise."
    • Well I would say that people claiming to "Christians" went on a search for the Holy Grail, the OT should have given them a clue that God puts no value in engraved images or any other earthly symbol like the "Golden Calf"
    • You are awful hard on Christians, but not all who claim to be disciples of Christ are faithful followers of Christ.  
    • I'm still researching the name "Christian" based upon what you've told me 

    "the cherubim Lucifer"

    • First, Lucifer is a star, a morning star to be exact (Isa 14:12  "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!) 
    • The Ultimate Scriptural Cross Reference Treasury states - Luciferor, day star. i.e. morning star, *Srongs# H1966, only here.  See 2Pe 1:19Rev 2:28Rev 22:16, Which properly is a bright and eminent star, which ushers in the sun and the morning; but is here metaphorically taken for the high and mighty king of Babylon. And it is a very usual thing, both in prophetical and profane writers, to describe the princes and potentates of the world under the title of the sun or stars of heaven. Some understand this place of the devil; to whom indeed it may be mystically applied; but as he is never called by this name in Scripture, so it cannot be literally meant of him, but of the king of Babylon, as is undeniably evident from the whole context, which certainly speaks of one and the same person, and describes him as plain as words can do it (Matthew Poole). Worshipped by the Assyrians as male at sunrise, female at sunset (CB). 1Pe 5:8. [1]
    • son of the morning. The title of son is given in Scripture not only to a person or thing begotten or produced by another but also in general to any thing which is any way related to another; in which sense we read of a son of stripesDeu 25:2; the son of a nightJon 4:10; a son of perditionJoh 17:12; and, which is more agreeable to the present case, the sons of ArcturusJob 38:32 (Matthew Poole). [1]
      Rev 22:16  "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.")
    • Second, how do you know the devil the serpent of old was a cherubim?  Rev 20:1-3:  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things, he must be released for a little while.
    • I don't know how much stock I would put into Ezekiel 28 as a proof text of Satan being the Gate Keeper of Eden.  One really has to be careful when interpreting prophets of old, sometimes we read into their prophetic language more than we ought to.  

      Below is an excerpt from the Word commentary on Ezekial 28.1-20 take it for what it is worth.  It is just another man's opinion.  Note the very last paragraph.  

      Ezekiel’s necessary task was to counter a mood of optimism among the Jewish exiles. Stunned as they were at Jerusalem’s fall, they were evidently clutching at a straw offered to them by their fellow exiles from Tyre. With a shift of confidence, they imagined that Tyre’s resistance to the besieging Babylonians might mean a turning of the tide for them. The prophet reacts to this chauvinist reading of current affairs with a divine no. Yahweh was working in a more radical way. The old order had to go completely before a new day of salvation and blessing could dawn. Vv 2–10 and 12–19, rhetorically addressed to one termed Tyre’s ruler and king, respectively, are two striking attempts to communicate this political and theological truth.

      The first puts Tyre firmly in its place as essentially a human, and therefore weak, an entity whose commercial affluence had gone to its head and whose efforts at resistance were perilously tantamount to pretensions of divine power. Such lay only with Yahweh and with those whom he chose as his agents. Tyre was guilty of hubris, and in reprisal had to be horribly struck down. The prophet’s coloring of the political map with these theological hues comes over with compelling persuasiveness. It is emotionally reinforced by wordplay, a technique that exerted much influence on the Hebrew ear. Tyre’s wealth (חיל) had in it the seeds of profanation, wounding and slaying (חלל). Tyre’s sense of security grounded in economic power and natural resources was to be rudely shattered by political events controlled by Yahweh himself.

      The second message is much more dramatic. Rather like the ship metaphor of chap. 27, it superimposes negative imagery of ruined grandeur on Tyre’s cultural success and self-confidence. Despite regrettable difficulties of interpretation in so many of its details, the general picture of Paradise lost shines through clearly. Tyre was not self-made, but as a created entity owed its prosperity and glory to a divine endowment. Yet privilege had not been matched with moral responsibility. “Violence,” ever a besetting sin in the prophetic vocabulary, had accompanied its rise to power. The tragic truth was that Tyre’s wrongdoing contained the seeds of its own destruction, which Yahweh’s intervention would encourage to germinate and grow into a baneful harvest. Three times it is stressed that moral failure must result in loss of fortune and in subjection to a terrible fate. Moreover, there is a religious theme that seems to run through the Oracle. The monarch in his role as priest-king is evidently accused of misrepresenting true religion, despite the strong religious basis of his rule.

      Ezekiel had two perceptions of reality, whereas his fellow exiles had only one. With prophetic insight and boldness, he was able to judge one perception by the standards of the other and to find it wanting. In a radical reinterpretation of current affairs, he was enabled to grasp that the most solid and settled expression of human power was ephemeral if it took issue with the moral and providential will of God. He was one with Paul the apostle: “We look not to the things that are seen, but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal” (2 Cor 4:18). Luke was aware of Ezekiel’s message: by coloring the narrative of Acts 12:20–23 with tints derived from the palette of Ezekiel 28:2–10, if not 2–19 (cf. Strom, NTS 32 [1986] 289–92), he used the death of Herod to affirm the triumph of God’s moral will in the interests of his covenant people. [2]

      Here is more of a breakdown of the words in Ezekial 1-20

      1–2 The target of the judgment oracle is the ruler of Tyre, Ethbaal II. His claims centered in the impregnability of his island city and the survival of his power. These claims were doubtless echoed by or attributed to him by Tyrian exiles known to Ezekiel and his Jewish compatriots in Babylonia (cf. Katzenstein, History of Tyre 307). For Ezekiel, they constituted a challenge to God and his ongoing purposes, which were bound up with the success of Babylonian interests. The self-confidence of the king, who functions also as a symbolic figure for the city-state of Tyre, was an attitude of proud defiance against Yahweh as well as against Nebuchadnezzar. The claim to divinity is a stronger expression of Isaiah’s characterization of Judah’s allies in an earlier confrontation between Mesopotamia and the west: “The Egyptians are men and not God” (Isa 31:3). Whether an ancient Near Eastern concept of divine kingship has contributed to the imagery (cf. Zimmerli 78; Eichrodt 390) is by no means certain.

      3–5 The note of excess is sounded now in a claim (הנה “behold” has an ironic force, “obviously”) to a wisdom greater than that of most men. Daniel, as in 14:14, 20, functions as a figure from remote antiquity, who appears in Ugaritic literature, in the Aqhat epic (esp. ANET 153–54a), as a ruler who practiced magical wisdom (see Day, VT 30 [1980] 174–84). The pride of the Tyrian king is now linked with his commercial wealth, which in his own eyes makes him more than a match for Nebuchadnezzar.

      6–10 The ruler has reckoned without Yahweh. His brazen challenge was to find a reprisal in Yahweh’s punishment, to be meted by cruel “aliens,” who for the reader, as for Ezekiel’s hearers, stand for the Babylonian army (cf. 26:7). It would patently disprove Ethbaal’s quasi-divine claims upon life and power by establishing his mere humanity—in death. Not only would the external evidences of human power be attacked, but its very heart, life itself, would pass away. The place where Tyre ruled the waves in commercial power would become the place of its downfall. This ironic reversal would be the final proof of the falsity of present claims. The event would overtake Tyre and its ruler with an unanswerable counter-argument. As to the reality of such a future event, Ezekiel pledges God’s own promise. In vv 8 and 10 an ignominious death is in view. Heb. חלל “slain” functions in the context as shorthand for חללי חרב “slain by the sword,” an idiom for violent death whose victims forfeited proper burial and a normal resting place in Sheol (cf. Eissfeldt, Studies in Prophecy 81 n. 22), as did those who died uncircumcised (see 31:17, 18 and Comment).

      11–14 On another occasion Ezekiel delivered a prophetic lament which with eloquent finality attested the reality of Tyre’s downfall by projecting it into the past. Unfortunately, the passage leaves the reader uncertain as to how to interpret some of its details. Basically, it makes use of a version of the garden of Eden story that appears in Gen 2–3. The description of the garden as “the garden of God” accords with 31:8–9 and is comparable with the phrase “garden of Yahweh” in Gen 13:10 and Isa 51:3. Yet this version knows nothing of the serpent or the first woman; it credits the first man with wisdom and adorns him in bejeweled clothing and apparently leaves him dead (cf. May, Israel’s Prophetic Heritage 168; McKenzie, JBL 75 [1956] 326). However, it does speak of the garden of Eden and expulsion from it, of moral perfection before a fall and of one cherub who is the agent of expulsion (cf. further Yaron, ASTI 3 [1964] 154). To what extent Ezekiel is retelling an oral tradition known to him we cannot know. He obviously adapts the tradition to the Tyrian situation (cf. Fohrer 162), but whether to this end he created other elements that do not belong to the Adam and Eve story in Genesis and/or whether he is fusing different creation myths known to him is tantalizingly uncertain (cf. Williams, BTB 6 [1976] 49–61, who seems, however, to go too far in seeing merely Ezekiel’s imagination at work).

      Does the first-man imagery begin with v 12b or with v 13? Is the seal or signet ring simply an object of artistic beauty or does it consciously have a royal reference, as in Jer 22:24; Hag 2:23? Does it characterize the king of Tyre as Yahweh’s vassal or instrument of authority? And is kingship already associated with the traditional story used by Ezekiel (cf. e.g., Ps 8:6[5]b)? The metal settings, if such they are, in v 13b seem to echo the beautiful seal (תכנית “intricate design,” v 12, כוננו “were prepared,” v 13). The reference to wisdom seems to allude to the king rather than to the seal: it is to be resumed in the perversion of his wisdom at v 17. A wisdom motif is part of the creation and first man traditions in the Old Testament, e.g., in Job 15:7–8 (Habel, Concordia Theological Monthly 38 [1967] 519).

      The role of the precious stones in v 13 is not clear. Are they worn by the king or do they feature in his topographical environment, as vv 14bβ and 16bβ more naturally suggest, if they are the equivalent of the fiery stones (אבני אש) mentioned there? Perhaps they are not meant to be the same, and we are to envisage a more complex picture involving stones of two kinds (cf. Yaron, ASTI 3 [1964] 38–39). The listing of nine jewels in a gold setting at v 13 is evidently borrowed from the catalog of twelve jewels mounted in gold which were attached to the high priest’s breast piece according to Exod 28:17–20; 39:10–12. The order is slightly different. The LXX reinforces the reference by listing all twelve stones. The list has been regarded as redactional (e.g., Zimmerli 82; Wevers 217), although, if so, it is valuable early evidence of interpretation of the message. However, the frequent use of the language of P by Ezekiel (cf. here the stem ברא “create” in vv 13, 15) may indicate that the prophet borrowed the list (Gowan, When Man Becomes God 83) in order to express the privilege of wealth with which the king was endowed as Yahweh’s creature and perhaps to indicate the role of the king of Tyre as priest-king, in line with the religious references elsewhere in the passage. The difference in the order and number of gems may indicate inexact reminiscence of a written text.

      A threefold chain of divinely given endowments commences with a reference to the cherub or attendant sphinx-like creature of mixed animal and human appearance. In the second link of the chain, the reference to the holy mountain of God (or the gods) complicates the picture. It sounds like Mount Zaphon in N. Syria, in Ugaritic mythology the abode of the gods, rather than a place for human habitation. It is likely that its polemical transfer to the sanctuary of Zion (cf. Ps 48:3[2]) was in Ezekiel’s mind, and that he projected it onto Tyre, where the king traditionally was also a priest (cf. v 18; cf. Bogaert, Homo Religiosus 9 [1983] 139, who, however, believes that an oracle originally relating to Jerusalem has been amplified and reapplied to Tyre). Widengren usefully compared בכל־הר קדשי “in all my holy mountain” at Isa 11:9 in a description of the return of Paradise (Ascension of the Apostle 97).

      The fiery stones have been compared with a divine garden in the Mesopotamian Gilgamesh epic, in which the fruit and leaves of the trees took the form of jewels (ANET 89), but other suggestions are not lacking (cf. Zimmerli 93).

      15–19 The narrative takes a sinister turn, with a willful moral decline. Vv 16–18 present an emphatic threefold account of human sin and divine punishment. In each case a double sin meets a double reprisal. In the reference to commerce (vv 16, 18) contemporary reality mingles with the tradition. Commerce gave rise to oppression and to the arrogance (cf. vv 2, 5) that is the stepchild of privilege, and to perverse use of the gift of wisdom. The religious allusion in v 18aβ is not clear: it may be a reference to the pagan religion of the priest-king.

      The punishment first keeps to the storyline, expulsion from the garden—the place of privilege—at the hands of Yahweh and the attendant cherub. The ensuing descriptions of retribution speak more generally of social humiliation and of Yahweh’s triggering the providential fate inherent in the human situation, although in the latter case the fiery stones appear to put their fire to new use (cf. v 14bβ), which may be linked with the “flaming sword” of Gen 3:24. In v 19a the motif of shock resumes a note struck in the two previous chapters (26:16; 27:35). As the refrain of v 19b implies, Tyre’s fate was sealed.

      The application of vv 11–19 to Satan by third and fourth-century a.d. Church Fathers, Tertullian, Origen, John Cassian, Cyril of Jerusalem and Jerome, and thence in some modern popular conservative expositions, is based on MT’s equation of the king and cherub and on comparison with Isa 14:12–15. It is a case of exegeting an element of Christian belief by means of Scripture and so endeavoring to provide it with an extrabiblical warrant and to fit the passage into the framework of the Christian faith. However, it is guilty of detaching the passage from its literary setting (Ellison 108–9). [3]

      The big take away is less if the imagery is of Satan but more about the fate to King 

      Many blessings!


      [1] Poole, Matthew. A Commentary on the Holy Bible. London: Banner of Truth Trust, 1962. Reprinted 1968. Originally published in 1683 and 1685. Three volumes.

      [2] Allen, L. C. (1998). Ezekiel 20–48 (Vol. 29, pp. 95–96). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

      [3] Allen, L. C. (1998). Ezekiel 20–48 (Vol. 29, pp. 93–95). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.
    @with_all_humility Thank you for your in-depth responses. You do realize that all the Commentaries were written by Trinitarians, right? I can't trust a Trinitarian explaining to me what the Bible says, could you? So if you're not a RCC trinitarian, than may I ask how you see the Godhead? Or baptism, like in the trinity they baptize once in the father, the son and the spirit, is that how you see this?

    What position does the Holy Spirit have?

    So Lucifer is just a star, right? How about Satan, does he exist? How about the devil, and hell?

    Thanks again. I will answer your above post tomorrow with, .. Gods help!?
    Erfisflat
  • Yes, Lucifer was mistranslated, it's meant to be Venus. There is no Devil, in the Christian sense.
    with_all_humility
  • @Evidence

    Concerning commentaries, I did tell you that they were just another man's opinion.  The commentator's notes I gave you was not RCC but from Leslie C. Allen, from Fuller University in England.  The Word commentary series is more on the use of the language and context and not a whole lot of doctrinal opinion.  Commentaries sometimes give you another perspective that may help you understand a passage.  But they should be your last source of study, and one need so always remember that it's only a man's opinion.  By the way, to the best of my knowledge, I never used any RCC material to make a doctrinal point.

    Concerning the Godhead, in my own words, I would describe it as three entities who are in total agreement with one another and each plays a pivotal but separate role in the redemption of mankind.  We see evidence of them be three separate entities at the baptism of Christ.
    • Mat 3:16-17:  When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.  And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
    • Eph 4:4-7  There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  But to each one of us, grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
    • So, from Ephesians four we have One Spirit, One Lord and One God and Father of all.  I don't know how much more clearly it can be described or told.
    What position does the Holy Spirit (HS) have?  The Holy Spirit provides a few things pertaining to the salvation of man.  The first I would point out the HS provides the divine revelation of God and Christ after the resurrection on the day of Pentecost. Note: Joh 14.25-26:  "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

    We also see mention of Gifts of the Holy Spirit:  The best place to examine what this amounted to is in Acts 8

    Act 8.13-24:  Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.  For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.  And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."  But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!  You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.  Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.  For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."  Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me."
    • What can we learn from Act 8, miracles, signs, and wonders were done by those who had received the Holy Spirit.  You can read 1 Corintians and discover not everyone received the same gift from the HS. Some could do signs and wonder, other could prophesy, along with many other gifts.  But the biggest gift that was imparted by the Spirit was the knowledge of the Law of Christ.  We have to remember that there was no New Testament Bible at this time.
    • Do these gifts exist today?  I believe the do not...this is revealed by Paul in 1 Cor 13.8:  Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
    • Today the Holy Spirit reveals itself in the written word of God, not by miraculous means.  This miraculous means could only be done by apostles, and a quick review of the NT you will not find anyone other than the apostles themselves performing the act of laying on hands to impart the Spirit.  Once the apostles died, so did the power of laying on hands.
    I Hope this covers the Godhead and the role of the Holy Spirit; if you need further evidence for my conclusions let me know.

    Baptism:

    There are three types of baptism in the NT.  Baptism of the HS and water baptism or what is sometimes referred to as John's baptism and there is Christ's baptism and we'll examine Act 19 to illustrate this.

    Act 19.2-5  he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."  And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."  Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    • So from this passage as well as Acts 8, we can see that just because one is baptized does not mean you received the HS or were baptized in the HS.  I cover what baptism symbolizes in a moment.  
    • Baptism of the Holy Spirit (HS) only occurred twice in the Bible, once on the Day of Pentecost (Act 2) when it fell upon the first Jews who were converted.  The second instance was in Act 10 with the conversion of the first Gentile the conversion of Cornelius.  These are the only two instance of divine pouring out of the HS as part of one's conversion.  Once to confirm to the Jews that the apostles were speaking by divine authority and the second time so that Jews in attendance at Cornelius's conversion would know and testify that Cornelius received the Spirit just as they did on the day of Pentecost.  (Remember the Gospel was to the Jew first and then to the Gentile)
    • Christ's Baptism or water baptism.  I believe it is essential (Mat 28.19) for those who confess Christ to be the son of God, and it symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Rom 6.3-4:  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so, we also should walk in newness of life.)  Christ commanded it in (Mk 16.16), and the apostles said it was for the remission of sins (Act 3.28).  
    • Peter tells us it saves us just as the Ark save eight souls in the time of Noah. (1Pe 3.18-22:  For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.  There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.)
    I believe you asked. How many times is one baptized? Once, you are baptized into Christ onetime.  Again it symbolizes His death, burial, and resurrection...how many times can one die in the flesh? One, not three.  

    I might mention that Christ commanded the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and HS.  (Mat 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,)  But this is still only one baptism, the baptism into Christ.

    So Lucifer is just a star, right? (Yes, the only occurrence of Lucifer in the Bible refers to a star)

    How about Satan/devil, does he exist?  Satan/devil, yes!  Read the book of Job and John tells us in Rev 12:9  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    How about hell?  Let's see...Mat 10:28  And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    What will hell be like?  
    • Mar 9:43-44  If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'  
    • When Jesus tells of the Rich Man and Lazarus he states in  Luk 16:22-24  So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.  And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.  "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
    If I missed something let me know, I'll do my best to give you an answer you.
  • Judaism said:
    Yes, Lucifer was mistranslated, it's meant to be Venus. There is no Devil, in the Christian sense.
    Yes, a lot of false teaching has been made on Lucifer.   Thanks for sharing.
  • @Evidence ;

    • If I missed something let me know, I'll do my best to give you an answer you.

    @with_all-humility - Concerning commentaries, I did tell you that they were just another man's opinion.  The commentator's notes I gave you was not RCC but from Leslie C. Allen, from Fuller University in England.  The Word commentary series is more on the use of the language and context and not a whole lot of doctrinal opinion.  Commentaries sometimes give you another perspective that may help you understand a passage.  But they should be your last source of study, and one need so always remember that it's only a man's opinion.  By the way, to the best of my knowledge, I never used any RCC material to make a doctrinal point.


    Why should commentaries be our "last source of study"? I say people who are searching for God, especially newbies should read them first, after all, we are commanded to "seek, and knock".

    What you fail to see my friend is that the mock word "Christian" was turned into a 'Religion' using the OT and NT writings taken from the Jews who, because they didn't like the Messiah that came for them, lost the value in its teachings.

    Ok, how about this? What if the Muslims took over the Bible, would you trust the Muslims interpretation of it, even if 90% of their teachings were Biblically correct, wouldn't you be skeptical about the 'spirit' behind their teaching?
     Now imagine that we are living 1,700 years 'after' the Muslims took over the Bible, .. which is just about what we have today with the RCC Christian. Please look who these so called "Biblical Scholars" like Leslie C. Allen are, and by whom they were taught:

    Fuller Theological Seminary is a multidenominational Christian evangelical seminary in Pasadena, California, with regional campuses in the western United States. The seminary has 2,897 students from 90 countries and 110 denominations

    You see, 90 Christian denominations learn from a Christian seminary, that from the beginning of the Christian Religion were built by Jesuits. Just like Free Masonry, the RCC Jesuit schools seemed 'heaven-sent', and the teaching as if an angel of light was teaching it.
    I am NOT saying we should not read these sources, .. like Google, or YouTube we have to remind ourselves what it is; information, .. all kinds of information, from different sources!

    Matter of fact after leaving the Christian Religion I dabbled in all kinds of different New Age teachings, and learned "spiritual discernment", .. I learned how the devil speaks, or what language he speaks in. I came to understand what was meant by the phrase; "Satan comes as an angel of light"!

    with_all_humility - Concerning the Godhead, in my own words, I would describe it as three entities who are in total agreement with one another and each plays a pivotal but separate role in the redemption of mankind.  We see evidence of them be three separate entities at the baptism of Christ.
    • Mat 3:16-17:  When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.  And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
    • Eph 4:4-7  There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  But to each one of us, grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
    • So, from Ephesians four we have One Spirit, One Lord and One God and Father of all.  I don't know how much more clearly it can be described or told.
    .. don't stop there; we have one Abraham, one Isaak, one Jacob, one Angel of Fire that appeared to Moses in the bush before whom Moses fell on his knees trembling, one Moses, one king David, one 'with_all-humility, one @Erfisflat, and so on. My question remains: "Yes, .. and?"
    We followers of the Way, the Truth and the Life (aka Jesus Christ) will have to come to total agreement with Christ teachings, or we will never enter that Eternal Kingdom of God.

    with_all-humility - What position does the Holy Spirit (HS) have?  The Holy Spirit provides a few things pertaining to the salvation of man.  The first I would point out the HS provides the divine revelation of God and Christ after the resurrection on the day of Pentecost. Note: Joh 14.25-26:  "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
    We also see mention of Gifts of the Holy Spirit:  The best place to examine what this amounted to is in Acts 8

    Have you studied Christian Denominations, .. like the Amish, the Quakers, .. how people left "father and mother, all siblings and friends, the worldly lifestyles and even abandoned sex, including the very thing Jesus asked the 'good' Rich Young Ruler: "Give all that you have, and come follow me!" and they did, they came following (supposedly) Jesus, and yes, as far as they believed; lead by the "Holy Spirit" as they daily worshipped with raised arms to heaven! Yet once you look deeper into these cults you realize that it is not Biblical God they worship, nor was it the Holy Spirit that was leading the Quakers, nor is it the Holy Spirit that leads Christians or any of its denominations.
    Like Billy Graham and his family, I mean Wow! .. what a representation of Gods message to mankind he portrayed, .. right?

    Related image Billy Graham Crusade Sydney

    .. but would you believe if I told you he was an Illuminati Free Mason Tranny, so was his wife, and so are his children? That Billy was one of the most powerful deceivers Satan had on his side? yes, and he was a good Christian.
    Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean that Christianity that was created by the RCC through Emperor Constantine is lead by him.


    with-all-humility - Act 8.13-24:  Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.  For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.  And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."  But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!  You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.  Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.  For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."  Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me."
    • What can we learn from Act 8, miracles, signs, and wonders were done by those who had received the Holy Spirit.  You can read 1 Corintians and discover not everyone received the same gift from the HS. Some could do signs and wonder, other could prophesy, along with many other gifts.  But the biggest gift that was imparted by the Spirit was the knowledge of the Law of Christ.  We have to remember that there was no New Testament Bible at this time.
    • Do these gifts exist today?  I believe the do not...this is revealed by Paul in 1 Cor 13.8:  Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
    • Today the Holy Spirit reveals itself in the written word of God, not by miraculous means.  This miraculous means could only be done by apostles, and a quick review of the NT you will not find anyone other than the apostles themselves performing the act of laying on hands to impart the Spirit.  Once the apostles died, so did the power of laying on hands.        I Hope this covers the Godhead and the role of the Holy Spirit; if you need further evidence for my conclusions let me know.

    Yes, beautifully put, and I agree with what you said, that is how I understand the workings of the Holy Spirit also.
    Even from my youth and up, God sent 'helpers' to save me from certain death imposed on me by my parents, my siblings, and after they didn't succeed, by Satan's army that continues to do harm to my body till this very day.
    Here is how I believe the Biblical version of the relation between God and His servants;

    God is Holy, and He is Spirit, and He has a spirit that works for Him that God calls His "Holy Spirit' that searches out both the Infinite Wisdom of God, and now also our hearts and minds. But the Holy Spirit here is not a part that makes up Who God Is, nor is His son Word, nor the Fiery Angel, nor Moses and so on, .. they are all in one accord, in one mind/spirit with God by their own free will, just as we must be. But none of this makes up "who" God Is.

    Baptism, .. we also agree there, except for:

    with_all_humility - I believe you asked. How many times is one baptized? Once, you are baptized into Christ onetime.  Again it symbolizes His death, burial, and resurrection...how many times can one die in the flesh? One, not three.  
    I might mention that Christ commanded the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and HS.  (Mat 28:19  Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,)  But this is still only one baptism, the baptism into Christ

    Warning! Trinity verse - Mathew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - was added by the RCC Christians.
    There is but One baptism, and it is "in Christ" but you list three 'as one', which should be obvious to you that this verse does not fit with the rest of the teachings, since even you agree that there is only one Baptism, which is in Christ. It is common for Christians to 'subconsciously' defend the Trinity even against their better judgement.

    with_all_humility -  
    Evidence said: So Lucifer is just a star, right
    Yes, the only occurrence of Lucifer in the Bible refers to a star

    So this:

    Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O
    Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    you say; is a star or planet that 'weakens the nations'? Can you elaborate on that a little more please?

    As on "hell", we agree.

    Thank you, and may God bless you.
  • Judaism said:
    Yes, Lucifer was mistranslated, it's meant to be Venus. There is no Devil, in the Christian sense.
    Yes, a lot of false teaching has been made on Lucifer.   Thanks for sharing.

    @Judaism, @with_all_humility One thing that the Romans knew well was Lucifer/Satan/Devil/that Serpent of old, for he's been worshipped by Angels even before man walked the earth, .. in other words, pre Genesis 1:2
    Besides, what's a Venus? There is no such star as "Venus" mentioned anywhere in the Bible, or that such a star fell and destroyed the nations. That's once again just a Zionist-RCC Jesuit taught lie to support their Globetard Big-Banged story.

    In order for the RCC to keep God out of His creation, and place their Big-Bang fairytale as truth, .. the ancients, and later on the Romans had to raise their gods up to heaven, .. gods like Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter etc. so that when people look up towards heaven and pray: "Oh god, .." everyone would be praying to all the gods created by man through Satan.

    Didn't you guys hear of the ecumenical movement;

    Related image Doesn't the guy standing on the left of the Pope look like this creature?

    Related image


     it is supported by the Zionists/Christian Religion that worship the sun-god and all the star-gods in "space" that NASATAN claimed the rights to, and the one the Jesuits watch with their "LUCIFER" telescope sitting here on Mt. Graham AZ.

    Image result for pic of the star of david on the Popes hat  Notice the hat representing the "fish" with its mouth open? Judaism, do you see the "EYE" -of the fish!? So don't knock Christianity, you worship the same symbol.

  • edited August 2018
    Evidence said:
    Judaism said:
    Yes, Lucifer was mistranslated, it's meant to be Venus. There is no Devil, in the Christian sense.
    Yes, a lot of false teaching has been made on Lucifer.   Thanks for sharing.


    "One thing that the Romans knew well was Lucifer/Satan/Devil/that Serpent of old, for he's been worshipped by Angels even before man walked the earth, .. in other words, pre Genesis 1:2"
    • I would like to see your material on this, I can't speak for the name of Venus.  But what I gave you was from Isa 14.12 and to the best of my knowledge the only reference of the name Lucifer in the Bible.
    • From my understanding, there are writings from various sects (Jewish and Christian) who wrote books elaborating on biblical characters or instances.  An example would be Gen 6.2:  that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful, and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
    • From this single verse; there have been some Jewish Rabbis who like I say elaborated on flood story and interpreted the sons of God to angles or specifically fallen angles.  In fact, the director, Darren Aronofsky used this storyline in his movie Noah.  This Midrash can be found with variations in a number of places in the Talmud and Midrash, including Talmud, Yoma 67b; Targum Yonatan ben Uziel to Genesis 6:4; Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer 22; Zohar 1:37a; and Yalkut Shimoni, Bereishit, remez 44. See also Torah SheleimahGenesis 6:1–4, for additional citations.
    • While other Rabbis have said:  Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai himself explains (ibid.) that benei elokim means judges. However, his cursing those who translate it as “sons of G‑d” is not meant in reference to the opinion that they are angels, for (a) this opinion is found in many places in the works of the sages, including the Talmud, so it does not seem probable that he would curse those who hold so widely accepted an opinion (see footnote 5); (b) the Zohar (1:37a) quotes this explanation without any negative comments. 
    • So one has to be careful of what he or she reads (especially commentary) and ask does this fit within the context of what is being said here in the scripture.  
    I don't believe the doctrine taught by the RCC and many other "religious leaders" to be true and what they teach is false.  I am not a Zionists or practice Christian Religion that worship the sun-god. (I've had to remind you of this several times).  I know nothing of the Jesuits practices or beliefs.
  • Evidence said:
    @Evidence ;

    • If I missed something let me know, I'll do my best to give you an answer you.



    Fuller Theological Seminary is a multi-denominational Christian evangelical seminary in Pasadena, California, with regional campuses in the western United States. The seminary has 2,897 students from 90 countries and 110 denominations
    • I'm aware of Fuller Seminary and what it represents, as with all commentary I look to historical context information, ancient language usage, but if they have a doctrinal slant to it I disregard 99% of their doctinal views.  Unfortunately, most commentaries are written by men with denominational backgrounds.  This does not make what they print wrong, and just about any denomination teaches some truth.  However, you have to take it for what it is and I would never make a doctrinal stand based on a commentary only

    "
    Why should commentaries be our "last source of study"? I say people who are searching for God, especially newbies should read them first, after all, we are commanded to "seek, and knock".
    • To each his own, there is nothing saying you can't go to a commentary first.  It was wisdom that was given to me by an old preacher.  His view was that going to a commentary first was a lazy way of learning the bible.  He advised me to first pray, then read the verse, then read it in its immediate context and then its remote context and see if you could come to an understanding of the scripture.  If you then fail to grasp the understanding of the verse, then go to a trusted commentary or preferably dictionary or lexicon.  I not saying it's the best way to study the Bible, but I have learned and come to understand so much more using this method.
    "The word Christian"
    • I understand that you view this as a mock word, and perhaps at one time it was?  I'm still praying and studying the issue.  I use the word, Christian, to denote a disciple of Christ's.  If the word is offensive to you, I will try my best not to use it in making my points known.  I'm using it because for over two millennia people have used it denotes the teachings of Christ and the apostles.  That is it, I've said many times that just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not make them a disciple of His.  To paraphrase Him "Many will come and say "Here I am thou good and faithful servant!" but I will turn away and say "Depart for I never knew you".   There are many people who sit in the pews every Sunday and are devout studies of the Bible that are in for a rude awakening on the day of judgment.  
    • I'm not claiming that my understanding of Bible is complete and the congregation I attend is "The Church", but from my personal study, and understanding I believe it to be the most accurate to the first century teaching found in the New Testament
    Baptism, .. we also agree there, except for:
    • Okay, to have a full understanding of the is verse we have to go back to the time of the first century.  The phrase "In the Name of" is to mean "by the authority of".  You have seen in the movies the knights would go and do things or deliver a message to the people.  They of say "In the name of King So and So".  This was to signify that they were operating under the authority of the king, and not of their own volition.  Well, that is what is meant by the words "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".   Christ was telling his disciple by what authority the command to baptize was coming from.  Again referring to Eph 4 the authority of God, of Christ and the Holy Spirit was all the same authority.  It was by the authority of heaven.  That's why I pointed out Mat 19, some people know of John's baptism and other Christ baptism, both were from the Father.  However, only one was superior and would suffice and that was Christ's baptism.
    • Do you see that in the text?  If the RCC interprets that as three baptisms then that is wrong.  Mat 28.19 is speaking of authority.
    Isaiah 14:12
    • I am saying that in the context of Isaiah Lucifer is referring to a star, according to the Lexham Dictionary it can refer to    
    • Look at the first part of the verse: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" it is clearly saying that Lucifer is a son of the morning.
    • Stong's dictionary says 1966.  הֵילֵל hêylêl, hay-lale´; from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:—lucifer. [1]
    • Lexham Bible Dictionary:  Lucifer (Latin derivation of הֵילֵ֣ל, heilel). The morning star; an epithet of Venus. A title given to the king of Babylon (Isa 14:12). The early church fathers began to apply the term to Satan, possibly due to the belief that he had fallen from heaven (Luke 10:18). [2]
    • I've attached a document that gives various myths down through the ages.  None that I saw referred to Lucifer as Satan, again that is given to what I believe to have been elaberation by the early priest in the history of the church.  The big take away is the text in Isaiah tells of a tyrant king who is overcome, not by the resistance of a god but by his own ambition to be as high as a god, to “ascend to heaven,” to reign above the stars, to sit in “the mountain assembly,” and to be “like the Most High.” 



    The Logos Bible sense lexicon:


    Concerning your statement:

    "Have you studied Christian Denominations, .. like the Amish, the Quakers, .. how people left "father and mother, all siblings and friends, the worldly lifestyles and even abandoned sex, including the very thing Jesus asked the 'good' Rich Young Ruler: "Give all that you have, and come follow me!" and they did, they came following (supposedly) Jesus, and yes, as far as they believed; lead by the "Holy Spirit" as they daily worshipped with raised arms to heaven! Yet once you look deeper into these cults you realize that it is not Biblical God they worship, nor was it the Holy Spirit that was leading the Quakers, nor is it the Holy Spirit that leads Christians or any of its denominations.
    Like Billy Graham and his family, I mean Wow! .. what a representation of Gods message to mankind he portrayed, .. right?"

    • Yes, I consider all that you have mentioned concerning the Amish, the Quakers, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen and the like to be false teachers.  All of them give a bad name to the doctrine of Christ.  
    ".. but would you believe if I told you he was an Illuminati Free Mason Tranny, so was his wife, and so are his children? That Billy was one of the most powerful deceivers Satan had on his side? yes, and he was a good Christian. (I believe it, nobody gets that popular and powerful and hold true to the Bible)

    Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean that Christianity that was created by the RCC through Emperor Constantine is lead by him."
    • I agree with your statement here as well.  


    [1] Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 2, p. 32). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

    [2] Major Contributors and Editors. (2016). Lucifer. In J. D. Barry, D. Bomar, D. R. Brown, R. Klippenstein, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair Wolcott, … W. Widder (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
  • with_all_humility, good response, you really understand your Judaism. If I may add my two cents to it:

    I don't know about Darren Aronofsky, he's an atheist, is he not?

    What about the whole Nephilim thing?

    Ooh, that's complicated now! Its all midrashic and may not be taken literally.  Anyway, this medrish which Rashi quotes discuses angels who ask if they can become human to illustrate that they can resist sin. G-d tells them they will fail, but relents. They in fact fail. The point is that angels are not created in the image of G-d, and never had a chance.  This is a metaphor.  You can take it literally, if you wish.  However, this is not the meaning of the text.  

    Rashba (Rav Shimon bar Yochai) said that those who called the B’nei Elohim angels were cursed. Yes, they were just men, i.e., judges. We're unsure if they were giants as in authority or not, but the term never appears in Hebrew.
    with_all_humility
  • Judaism said:
    with_all_humility, good response, you really understand your Judaism. If I may add my two cents to it:

    I don't know about Darren Aronofsky, he's an atheist, is he not?

    What about the whole Nephilim thing?

    Ooh, that's complicated now! Its all midrashic and may not be taken literally.  Anyway, this medrish which Rashi quotes discuses angels who ask if they can become human to illustrate that they can resist sin. G-d tells them they will fail, but relents. They in fact fail. The point is that angels are not created in the image of G-d, and never had a chance.  This is a metaphor.  You can take it literally, if you wish.  However, this is not the meaning of the text.  

    Rashba (Rav Shimon bar Yochai) said that those who called the B’nei Elohim angels were cursed. Yes, they were just men, i.e., judges. We're unsure if they were giants as in authority or not, but the term never appears in Hebrew.
    Judaism said:
    with_all_humility, good response, you really understand your Judaism. If I may add my two cents to it:

    I don't know about Darren Aronofsky, he's an atheist, is he not?

    What about the whole Nephilim thing?

    Ooh, that's complicated now! Its all midrashic and may not be taken literally.  Anyway, this medrish which Rashi quotes discuses angels who ask if they can become human to illustrate that they can resist sin. G-d tells them they will fail, but relents. They in fact fail. The point is that angels are not created in the image of G-d, and never had a chance.  This is a metaphor.  You can take it literally, if you wish.  However, this is not the meaning of the text.  

    Rashba (Rav Shimon bar Yochai) said that those who called the B’nei Elohim angels were cursed. Yes, they were just men, i.e., judges. We're unsure if they were giants as in authority or not, but the term never appears in Hebrew.

    @with_all_humility how could you agree with @Judaism who is a man who believes that God is an evolving ape, who created man in His image, .. as "evolving apes"!?
  • Evidence said:
    @Evidence ;

    • If I missed something let me know, I'll do my best to give you an answer you.




    "The word Christian"
    • I understand that you view this as a mock word, and perhaps at one time it was?  I'm still praying and studying the issue.  I use the word, Christian, to denote a disciple of Christ's.  If the word is offensive to you, I will try my best not to use it in making my points known.  I'm using it because for over two millennia people have used it denotes the teachings of Christ and the apostles.  That is it, I've said many times that just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not make them a disciple of His.  To paraphrase Him "Many will come and say "Here I am thou good and faithful servant!" but I will turn away and say "Depart for I never knew you".   There are many people who sit in the pews every Sunday and are devout studies of the Bible that are in for a rude awakening on the day of judgment.  
    • I'm not claiming that my understanding of Bible is complete and the congregation I attend is "The Church", but from my personal study, and understanding I believe it to be the most accurate to the first century teaching found in the New Testament
    Baptism, .. we also agree there, except for:
    • Okay, to have a full understanding of the is verse we have to go back to the time of the first century.  The phrase "In the Name of" is to mean "by the authority of".  You have seen in the movies the knights would go and do things or deliver a message to the people.  They of say "In the name of King So and So".  This was to signify that they were operating under the authority of the king, and not of their own volition.  Well, that is what is meant by the words "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".   Christ was telling his disciple by what authority the command to baptize was coming from.  Again referring to Eph 4 the authority of God, of Christ and the Holy Spirit was all the same authority.  It was by the authority of heaven.  That's why I pointed out Mat 19, some people know of John's baptism and other Christ baptism, both were from the Father.  However, only one was superior and would suffice and that was Christ's baptism.
    • Do you see that in the text?  If the RCC interprets that as three baptisms then that is wrong.  Mat 28.19 is speaking of authority.
    Isaiah 14:12
    • I am saying that in the context of Isaiah Lucifer is referring to a star, according to the Lexham Dictionary it can refer to    
    • Look at the first part of the verse: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" it is clearly saying that Lucifer is a son of the morning.
    • Stong's dictionary says 1966.  הֵילֵל hêylêl, hay-lale´; from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:—lucifer. [1]
    • Lexham Bible Dictionary:  Lucifer (Latin derivation of הֵילֵ֣ל, heilel). The morning star; an epithet of Venus. A title given to the king of Babylon (Isa 14:12). The early church fathers began to apply the term to Satan, possibly due to the belief that he had fallen from heaven (Luke 10:18). [2]
    • I've attached a document that gives various myths down through the ages.  None that I saw referred to Lucifer as Satan, again that is given to what I believe to have been elaberation by the early priest in the history of the church.  The big take away is the text in Isaiah tells of a tyrant king who is overcome, not by the resistance of a god but by his own ambition to be as high as a god, to “ascend to heaven,” to reign above the stars, to sit in “the mountain assembly,” and to be “like the Most High.” 


    The Logos Bible sense lexicon:

    Concerning your statement:

    "Have you studied Christian Denominations, .. like the Amish, the Quakers, .. how people left "father and mother, all siblings and friends, the worldly lifestyles and even abandoned sex, including the very thing Jesus asked the 'good' Rich Young Ruler: "Give all that you have, and come follow me!" and they did, they came following (supposedly) Jesus, and yes, as far as they believed; lead by the "Holy Spirit" as they daily worshipped with raised arms to heaven! Yet once you look deeper into these cults you realize that it is not Biblical God they worship, nor was it the Holy Spirit that was leading the Quakers, nor is it the Holy Spirit that leads Christians or any of its denominations.
    Like Billy Graham and his family, I mean Wow! .. what a representation of Gods message to mankind he portrayed, .. right?"

    • Yes, I consider all that you have mentioned concerning the Amish, the Quakers, Billy Graham, Joel Osteen and the like to be false teachers.  All of them give a bad name to the doctrine of Christ.  
    ".. but would you believe if I told you he was an Illuminati Free Mason Tranny, so was his wife, and so are his children? That Billy was one of the most powerful deceivers Satan had on his side? yes, and he was a good Christian. (I believe it, nobody gets that popular and powerful and hold true to the Bible)

    Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean that Christianity that was created by the RCC through Emperor Constantine is lead by him."
    • I agree with your statement here as well.  


    [1] Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 2, p. 32). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

    [2] Major Contributors and Editors. (2016). Lucifer. In J. D. Barry, D. Bomar, D. R. Brown, R. Klippenstein, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair Wolcott, … W. Widder (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

    @with_all_humility - Fuller Theological Seminary is a multi-denominational Christian evangelical seminary in Pasadena, California, with regional campuses in the western United States. The seminary has 2,897 students from 90 countries and 110 denominations
    • I'm aware of Fuller Seminary and what it represents, as with all commentary I look to historical context information, ancient language usage, but if they have a doctrinal slant to it I disregard 99% of their doctinal views.  Unfortunately, most commentaries are written by men with denominational backgrounds.  This does not make what they print wrong, and just about any denomination teaches some truth.  However, you have to take it for what it is and I would never make a doctrinal stand based on a commentary only
    Yes, I agree with you, as I do with about 85% of Christian Commentaries, .. only I did not see you respond with something other than Christian/Judaism ideology.

    with_all_humility - "Why should commentaries be our "last source of study"? I say people who are searching for God, especially newbies should read them first, after all, we are commanded to "seek, and knock".
    • To each his own, there is nothing saying you can't go to a commentary first.  It was wisdom that was given to me by an old preacher.  His view was that going to a commentary first was a lazy way of learning the bible.  He advised me to first pray, then read the verse, then read it in its immediate context and then its remote context and see if you could come to an understanding of the scripture.  If you then fail to grasp the understanding of the verse, then go to a trusted commentary or preferably dictionary or lexicon.  I not saying it's the best way to study the Bible, but I have learned and come to understand so much more using this method.
    I agree; to each his own, better than being lead by the ear by a Religion.

    Why I myself suggested a newbie who is seeking and knocking to truly find the One True and Only Possible Creator God to read up on the commentaries first is because this will lead them to a more, .. how should I say, a more scholarly and detailed understanding of the Bible. But first, I would make sure that they understand that these commentaries are Christian based, and that "Christian" is a powerful Religion invented by pagan god worshiping Gentiles whose very foundation is the Trinity Doctrine, which is no different than any other pagan multi god worshipping religion.
    This is my suggestion, but if they go into reading the commentaries with the false belief that the Bible is somehow "Christian", meaning that the Church that Jesus built by and through his Apostles were "Christian", reading these commentaries would only deepen their false belief that God is just an idea made up of at least three persons.

    This is my message from a torn down, beaten, poisoned often, with a plethora of enemies ready to kill me, and continue to try to kill me an unworthy nobody in my eyes. But this message is BIBLICAL, thus I believe it comes from God, which is the only thing that explains why God protects me, and saved me from all the harm! It sure wasn't because of my 'righteousness'!

    People from new seekers, to those who have grown up over many generations in Christianity, have to wake up to the truth that "Christian/Christianity" has nothing to do with Bible God, or His son Word aka Jesus Christ!

    Matter of fact, .. people have to understand that the very reason that this mock name "Christian" was given to this new religion created around 325AD was to
    * hide God,
    * take away His Creation, so they created the Big-bang story with Biological Evolution.
    * hide the "narrow path" including the "narrow gate/door" to eternal life with God!
    * and accept a WIDE Road traveled by all Religions with all their gods, .. which is fast coming to fruition!

    People, .. ALL people must wake up to the startling revelation that "Christianity" is a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, .. which so far you did not take seriously.

    This has NOTHING to do with 'what one calls his church', but about the name; "Christian" which is a 1,700 year old, well established antichrist Religion, so when anyone uses this name "Christian", they are making a statement of faith which includes about 35,000 denominations. 
    People have to understand the following, that:
    Christianity is founded on the Trinity, or triune, plural, multi-gods doctrine
    It has a very bloody past.
    it is involved in Luciferian/Satanic practices including idolatry, child rape, sodomy, the hate of women, and even child sacrifice, all hiding behind the Bible like a low-life used car salesman does.

    You might say: "Well I don't believe this part and that part of Christian teaching, nor do I practice this part or that part, .. but if you associate with this Religion, you are part of all of it.

    My dear friend, this is not about minor Bible interpretation differences, but about your/our foundation of faith.
    Like if I started a church today using the Bible, .. and claim to teach about Christ, and named it Islam, and I referred to myself as a Muslim, with all that we know of Islam, wouldn't you question my Biblical interpretation, the real truth behind the "Christ" in this Religion? Wouldn't you ask if God, and the Jesus I was teaching was the same as Bible God and His son Word or not?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Christian_Bible

    .. same with the Christian Religion, .. so I beg you, all of you Christians and those seeking the One True God the Only Possible Infinite and Eternal Creator "I Am" that you take whom you identify with very seriously, because the Bible makes it perfectly clear: There is only One Way, One Truth and One Eternal Life, and it is Christ, and through Christ, and no Trinitarian based Christian will be allowed in there, even if you are not a Trinitarian.

    Luke 13:26 Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out.…
  • @Evidence
    i could not agree with the notion that man came from ape. I believe Judaism was agreeing with what I said. 
    Evidence
  • Evidence
    i could not agree with the notion that man came from ape. I believe Judaism was agreeing with what I said. 
    with_all_humility 
    Judaism, just like the Father of Christianity the Pope, both support the Big Bang Evolution stories. He said Adam had a tail.
    By the way, what did you think of my last post to you, .. especially this:

    ******************

    People from new seekers, to those who have grown up over many generations in Christianity, have to wake up to the truth that "Christian/Christianity" has nothing to do with Bible God, or His son Word aka Jesus Christ!

    Matter of fact, .. people have to understand that the very reason that this mock name "Christian" was given to this new religion created around 325AD was to
    * hide God,
    * take away His Creation, so they created the Big-bang story with Biological Evolution.
    * hide the "narrow path" including the "narrow gate/door" to eternal life with God!
    * and accept a WIDE Road traveled by all Religions with all their gods, .. which is fast coming to fruition!

    People, .. ALL people must wake up to the startling revelation that "Christianity" is a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, .. which so far no Christian took seriously!?


    Erfisflat
  • Where did you get the silly idea that humans are morally innocent and where did you get the idea that it is wrong for God to do whatever He wants with you when He owns you?
  • Evidence said:
    Evidence
    i could not agree with the notion that man came from ape. I believe Judaism was agreeing with what I said. 
    with_all_humility 
    Judaism, just like the Father of Christianity the Pope, both support the Big Bang Evolution stories. He said Adam had a tail.
    By the way, what did you think of my last post to you, .. especially this:

    ******************

    People from new seekers, to those who have grown up over many generations in Christianity, have to wake up to the truth that "Christian/Christianity" has nothing to do with Bible God, or His son Word aka Jesus Christ!

    Matter of fact, .. people have to understand that the very reason that this mock name "Christian" was given to this new religion created around 325AD was to
    * hide God,
    * take away His Creation, so they created the Big-bang story with Biological Evolution.
    * hide the "narrow path" including the "narrow gate/door" to eternal life with God!
    * and accept a WIDE Road traveled by all Religions with all their gods, .. which is fast coming to fruition!

    People, .. ALL people must wake up to the startling revelation that "Christianity" is a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, .. which so far no Christian took seriously!?


    One only needs to abide by the Law of Christ and doctrine of apostles and he/she will receive the gift of everlasting life. 

    On the name of "Christian/Christianity" being created to hide God, take away His Creation...etcetera.  Do you have an literature, essays or thesis on the subject?  I've been looking and not been having much luck in finding supporting material.  

    Thanks, Evidence!
  • TTKDBTTKDB 260 Pts
    @Pogue

    Let me guess, you're anti religious oriented maybe? 

    Setting the Bible aside, because bullying a book is easy to do right?

    How do you feel about how humanity itself treats humanity on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis? 

    Assualt and battery, murder, hit and runs, car jackings, driver by shootings, arson, robberies, abductions, the 1.6 million innocent people who have been killed by the drunk drivers for 8 plus decades, the drugged drivers who get high on drugs, and then drive while drugged up on drugs? 

    Any thoughts on how humanity in general treats humanity? 

    Or just maybe stick to your anti religious rhetoric with your individual view of the Bible? 
  • Evidence said:
    Evidence
    i could not agree with the notion that man came from ape. I believe Judaism was agreeing with what I said. 
    with_all_humility 
    Judaism, just like the Father of Christianity the Pope, both support the Big Bang Evolution stories. He said Adam had a tail.
    By the way, what did you think of my last post to you, .. especially this:

    ******************

    People from new seekers, to those who have grown up over many generations in Christianity, have to wake up to the truth that "Christian/Christianity" has nothing to do with Bible God, or His son Word aka Jesus Christ!

    Matter of fact, .. people have to understand that the very reason that this mock name "Christian" was given to this new religion created around 325AD was to
    * hide God,
    * take away His Creation, so they created the Big-bang story with Biological Evolution.
    * hide the "narrow path" including the "narrow gate/door" to eternal life with God!
    * and accept a WIDE Road traveled by all Religions with all their gods, .. which is fast coming to fruition!

    People, .. ALL people must wake up to the startling revelation that "Christianity" is a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, .. which so far no Christian took seriously!?


    One only needs to abide by the Law of Christ and doctrine of apostles and he/she will receive the gift of everlasting life. 

    On the name of "Christian/Christianity" being created to hide God, take away His Creation...etcetera.  Do you have an literature, essays or thesis on the subject?  I've been looking and not been having much luck in finding supporting material.  

    Thanks, Evidence!
    @with_all_humility One only needs to abide by the Law of Christ and doctrine of apostles and he/she will receive the gift of everlasting life.

    Yes true, only Christianity and its tens of thousands of denominations have varied interpretations of the "law of Christ and the doctrines of the Apostles", one huge one, which makes Our Infinite and Eternal Creator a created-being, that's what all "beings" are, .. created. And not only 'a' being, but Christianity made God to be three beings with the man-made Trinity Doctrine.
    My dearest friend, please look deeper into this Trinity Doctrine, with this one single question on top of your mind as you search: "Why was there a need to create this Doctrine?"

    * Was the Bible insufficient in defining our Infinite and Eternal God to us?
    * Did Jesus NOT make himself perfectly clear as to who he was?
    * Did this doctrine clarify how these three individuals, with three individual free wills, define One God?


    What, oh, because he said "I, and the Father are one" justifies to go and create an un-Biblical confusing doctrine? The answer to what Jesus said, is everywhere throughout the N.T. the Apostles even made it clear that we all, those who follow Christ have to become One With God, one in heart, soul and mind, .. in complete agreement or we are none of His. So are we now God because we (with_all_humility and Evidence) become one with God!? You do agree that we have to become one as Disciples of Christ, right? Like a marriage, with Christ the husband and the Church as the bride.

    with_all_humility - On the name of "Christian/Christianity" being created to hide God, take away His Creation...etcetera.  Do you have an literature, essays or thesis on the subject?  I've been looking and not been having much luck in finding supporting material.

    No, if there is, I have not found any literature, essays, or thesis on the subject other than the Bible and the evidence in the history of this antichrist RCC-Religion called Christian with its tens of thousands of denominations, and what we see and hear of the sheeple proclaiming.

    Look friend, it's been 1,700 years of the RCC Christian dominating, interpreting the Bible, this include Luther and all the writers of 'otherwise' good Bible commentaries, but what stayed is that they remained Christian, and kept the Christian doctrines and the 'Christian gods'.
    So where are we now?
    This is where we are, and if you find what I say in error, by all means I am OPEN to correction to admonishment, to criticism, as long as you can back it up with Scripture.

    * When someone mentions the word 'Bible' meaning the Old and the New Testaments together, the first thing on peoples mind is "Christian", as if this is what Jesus taught his Apostles, or that is what they went by?

    In my search visiting all the different denominations, in all my years of debating, especially on Christian Forums, not one Christian could think outside that "Christian" box. Some even refer to Jesus as a Christian, to the Apostles, to the early Church, to everyone, .. in their mind, these were all "Christian", and with this false belief comes that Jesus is the sun-god. Now I know Christians will deny this, but all one has to do is look into the  history of the RCC.

    Here is a very good example of the confusion Satan caused in the world, here is a Muslim exposing the RCC, and even though it was the RCC that created Islam, this group thinks that somehow they are not associated. This is EXACTLY like the Protestant Christians, they don't "see" who created the Christian Religion!? Please take the time to look at this video?



    Then read the three places the word Christian is used in the Bible? Not One is a claim by the Apostles or the Early Church disciples, instead you will see that they referred to themselves as the "followers of The Way", which is simply 'followers of Christ" who is the Way, the Truth and the Light. Paul persecuted the Way, not Christians.

    It's just like the Globe earth, no one has even claimed to have seen the earth as a globe till what, till the '68 moon landing hoax where NASA produced one poor painting of earth called the Blue Marble and the whole world simply accepted it.
    Just as the words space, Big-Bang and Evolution  triggers the word "science", the word "Christian" is synonymous with the Bible, God, Jesus, his Church, and of course the Apostles, .. it's all Christian, yet Not One is associated with the derogatory word used to tease and mock the early Believers and disciples.

    We have been, and are continuously being brainwashed by Satan and his millions of followers, or minions on the News, TV shows from Disney to the Trans Gender TV adult shows, to Movies, commercials, sporting events, you name it, they continuously reinforce their agenda by using MK-ultra techniques. Look into this age-old Trans gender agenda, .. is it any wonder that the LGBT Religion is now accepted, and even welcomed in every country, .. especially where our Lord and King walked; in Jerusalem Israel.

    What more proof does anyone need than that which is in the Bible, and observing the world around us?
  • TTKDBTTKDB 260 Pts
    The internet, where some of the anti religious rhetoric pusher's come to express their anti religious mindsets, and do it to gain attention for themselves by using Religion to get their attention seeking needs met? 


  • TTKDBTTKDB 260 Pts
    @someone234

    Are you maybe anti religious? 
  • TTKDBTTKDB 260 Pts
    Some express that they don't understand Christianity?

    When you ask an anti religious individual what they have to support their anti religious points of view with?

    Apparently in some situations, their anti religious points of view are supported by their own anti religious opinion and attitude? 

    And their primary source for reference material is the Bible? 

    Whats easier to do, verbally bully a book because various individuals have a mentily beef with God, Jesus, and the book known as the Bible? 

    Or instead question some of humanity for how some of humanity treats the rest of humanity?

    Blame God for this or that reason, while at the same time, neglecting to question man for what man does to man? 

    The above is why I don't get or understand the anti religious mindset? 

    Hounding God or religion over what some of humanity does to humanity? 

    Can that disrepency be explained? 
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