Why do Christians defend the immorality of the Christian god as depicted in the Bible ?

Judaism

I won't be able to respond soon as Shabbat is fast approaching. Write to me know while you still have the chance. I'll be back Saturday night or Monday evening to see what's up.

Judaism

Also, he misunderstands the Quran. I once had a Muslim show me all those verses you people use as ammunition against their faith on request. He showed me them - in context - again, "Islamophobia. . . a word created by Fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons." - Chris Hitchens. So, according to your rising star - or shall I say dying star, since the guy is dead - dead - after all - you, Joeseph, who stated that the Quran is "filthy," and teaches us to "slay the infidels," are a moron.

Yes, you're just a "moron," who've been manipulated just like how you're also an anti-Semite and racist bigot. Nice. Mazel Tov! Good work! 

Chris Hitchens said you're a moron. I wouldn't disagree with him on that point. See, atheists and theists can agree every once in a blue moon, ha!

Judaism

Does G-d "kill kids," as this clown says? Come on, he clearly never read a word of Torah, nor the Oral Law - the Torah she-be-`al peh - to understand that its all metaphor to stone your children. He doesn't understand that by that negative mitzvot, stoning children was banished forever. He lies his way through life, this guy. He's a fool. He never read the full Torah in Hebrew, he uses a faulty translation and expects us to drop our faith?

What chutzpah!

Joeseph

@Judaism

A pretty pathetic attempt at a defence and yet again you defend a god that commands the murder of children but understandably attempt anotther lame defence .

Newton was a believer like everyone else during his time what a shocker ! Einstein you lied about then attempted another weak defence you do know he called the stories in the Bible infantile ...... you loose again 

Judaism

Tired yet? Just watch the video and try to debunk it, then I'll go away from this thread. But you can't even do that, it seems. You're like the husband who wants sex real badly from his wife but won't take the time to start a real relationship with her. 

Foolish little boy! How old are you? 

Joeseph

@Judaism

Oh yeah , that gives you time to bow and scrape to your child killing god give him my regards

Judaism

Did Joespeh somehow fail to miss that Einstein thought the Bible "honorable"? Also, what about his claims? There are hardly another famous atheist out there, save for Stalin. 

A bad defense? He says everything's a bad defense. Get real, bud! Debunk the film!

Judaism

Joeseph 

Doesn't understand the Shabbat, he thinks its downtime or something, like I'm suing for temporary cease fire or something. PATHETIC! GO AND LEARN LITTLE BOY! READ A POST OF CHABAD! LEARN SOMETHING IN YOUR PATHETIC LIFE FOR ONCE!

Judaism

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/258916/jewish/Shabbat-Is.htm

Joeseph

@Judaism

I destroyed your assertions about the Torah and you offered no defence just abuse ........Ah I get it your wife won’t let you screw here no wonder you’re in a rage you little girl 

Joeseph

@Judaism

Oh you sneaky Jew let me help you with the whole quote your dishonesty is appalling and so typical .

“The word 'God' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this.”

Ouch ! Einstein thought fools like you childish I agree ......You’re welcome 

Joeseph

@Judaism

e

“The word 'God' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this.”

Joeseph

@Judaism

I couldn’t care less about your primitive beliefs or practices 

Judaism

Joeseph 

How sad. I showed you the link to Rashi. I proved two accusations were utter hogwash. You declined to ever answer them. Okay, let's say you're correct, you still have to prove that Lincoln and Newton were anti-believers. Can you do it? What about Bill Maher? Did he one day wake up smart? What about Peter Hitchens? Just as smart as Chris. Point is, you people try to pain us as losers or something. What about Francis Collins? He's a scientist too, y'know. What are they worth in your blind eyes, eh?

Also, your wife wouldn't even think of screwing you, one look would be enough.

Joeseph

@Judaism

I thought you were going to -Out ?

Judaism

Joeseph 

Ya, I'll have to stop soon, it's only 3:47 pm.

Judaism

Joeseph 

Answer my earlier arguments: Francis Collins, Lincoln, Bill Maher, Pet Hitchens. Also, debunk the film.

Judaism

Joeseph said, "your dishonesty is appalling and so typical" you using stereotypes now?

Joeseph

@Judaism

Rashi was a peado .....Why are you not preparing for - Out with your dog of a wife ? Your family tree must be a cactus because everybody on it is a prick, If I had a face like yours, I'd sue my parents.

Judaism

Joeseph 

Prove that about Rashi. Cite sources. Anyone could look like an just as you and say bull.

Judaism

Ha, you can't prove about Rashi! Now who's dishonest?

Joeseph

@Judaism

Rashi was a peado ...... Bet your wife is a porker ......better not eat her 

Joeseph

@Judaism

Rashi was a clown with a big red nose 

Joeseph

@Judaism

You mean like you citing “ sources “ and lying about Einstein? 

Joeseph

@Judaism

You make allegations and accusations all the time and never back them up Rashi liked kids 

Judaism

@poco @YeshuaBought @with_all_humility @Evidence @Erfisflat

I wanted to share with you all what I wrote to Joeseph in another thread concerning evolution and the Jewish view of the age of the universe. I hope it's enlightening. 

To give context, I quickly wrote to him what the rabbis knew regarding these issues, and he called it "nonsense." So, here we go!

_________________________

Nonsense? I can prove it buddy! Why else would I be saying it!

In Jaffa, 1905, Rav Kook responded to a question concerning evolution and the geological age of the world. He put forth this letter: 

"Even to the ancients, it was well known that there were many periods that preceded our counting of nearly six thousand years for the current era. According to the Midrash (Bereishit Rabbah 3:7), 'G-d built worlds and destroyed them,' before He created the universe as we know it. Even more astonishing, the Zohar (Vayikra 10a) states that there existed other species of human beings besides the ‘Adam’ who is mentioned in the Torah [Bereshit]." [1]

Now, what does the Talmud Bavli have to say on evolution, centuries before Darwin? We read in Erubin 18a, that the Chazel taught us that “Man was first created with a tail like an animal.” Later, in Bereshit Rabbah (23:9), it states: “Up to the generation of Enoch the faces of people resembled those of monkeys.” We have already seen that there were generations before Adam and Chavah who were animals and not humans merely because they didn't possess the divine Neshamah (i.e., soul). As they slowly evolved, with G-d's help, everything became clearer, and man walked upright, as science has recently concluded in the last few centuries.

Again, Jews don't view the universe as being 6,000 years old, we're not Christian Creationists. Let me explain:

. . .What is the age of the universe? This has perhaps been the focal question of philosophy for centuries, and the rabbis were no different, especially with such an important kasha as this. The Torah, when counting all the 26 generations from Adam to Moshe, and then all the way to the present day, lends itself to a blundering cosmology of 6,000 years (approximately), as denoted by both the religious and scholarly community at large. It is a blunder because everything from radioactive carbon dating to the extensive fossil record at our display in any museum shows us that our universe is mere billions of years old. When one further considers the discoveries of further scientific study, such as ice core samples, geologic layering, the cosmic microwave background, red-shifting of stars, and the parallax of galaxies, it’s just one landslide after another, tumbling Judaism to the ground with a knockout blow to the divine status of the Torah. To those who accept this view, the Torah is no longer valid and Judaism has just died. 

But what if I told you that all this doesn't have to be the case? What if I told you that the scholars are wrong, and that Judaism does in fact agree with our most recent findings, and that these rabbinic writings are centuries old?

Well, how does that make sense with the account in Bereshit? Let me explain. G-d created everything 15 billion years ago, man evolved, and that it was all an act of G-d (as stated in Bereshit Aleph). But the Rambam (12th century sage) said that most all of Bereshit, especially the creation account, was metaphorical (or done in maaseh - G-d's thought, His planning stage). [2] Hence, HaShem first created the world with Midot HaDin (judgment), but then added Midot HaRachamim (mercy) after, hence, the world's birthday isn't what's celebrated on Rosh Hashanah, but Adam HaRishon in the last shemitah. The reason for adding mercy is stated in Rashi (11th century biblical commenter), he says that the world would have been too harsh a place of judgment otherwise. Thankfully, Yitzchak deMin Acco (14th century sage) calculated for us the age of the universe via the Sefer HaTemunah (penned by the Tanna Nehunya ben ha-Kanah, a kabbalistic text) and Tehillim (90:4); we know he further believed in the Zohar (the main kabbalistic work) because he wrote so in Otzar HaChaim 20 years after his investigation confirmed it - so it doesn't matter if the recent scholars suggest in his earlier work that he didn't believe in Zohar because of the mission conclusion, we already have confirmation here! 

Look, I'll break it down for you. Here's his calculation:

42,000 x 365,250 = 15.3 billion.

Keep in mind that the 42,000 years were considered divine years (known to use by the Sefer HaTemunah) [3], each lasting 1,000 years, as Tehillim suggests. This is why Judaism matches perfectly with both creation and evolution, and these things were discussed centuries ago, let's say about c. 1200 CE, so no apologetic here!

Modern science has concluded in the last two centuries that the universe is 15 billion years old, and while some scientists do claim its more like ~13 billion, some stars are obviously older than that! Hence, HaShem revealed to the rabbis the true age of the universe centuries ago, well before the first telescope was lifted to the heavens. Why would He want to do this? Because it is stated in Yeshayahu 45:18-19,

"For so said Adonai, the Creator of heaven, Who is G-d, Who formed the earth and made it, He established it; He did not create it for waste, He formed it to be inhabited, 'I am Adonai and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a place of a land of darkness; I did not say to the seed of Yaakov, Seek Me, in vain; I am Adonai, Who speaks righteousness, [and] declares things that are right.'"

What's the central point of this passage? 

"I did not say to the seed of Yaakov, Seek Me, in vain...."

G-d wants us to find Him, and the divine knowledge that the universe is actually billions of years old, is only part of that discovery. May we all praise HaShem! [4]
____________

Footnote:

1. Even though there is a source in Chagigah 13b-14a, B.T., disputing it, it would do us all well to recall that the Marches Elokus held a hashkafah which believed these generations actually existed in the last shemitah (cosmic cycle, 7 in total, like the Yovel), we can't discount that.

2. After having carefully studied this system in depth, I've come to the same conclusion as Rambam, that "the account of the beginning [Bereshit 1] is [in] natural science, but so profound that it is cloaked in parables." This actually makes perfect scientific sense, as the Zohar, relying to us what really happened, as opposed to the mythical Torah account of creation, speaks of plant life coming after the creation of the Sun.

3. Originally, The Sefer HaTemunah says that the universe will only exist for 42,000 years. That number jumps to 49,000 when one adds the Messianic age. Remember what I said earlier, that there are 7 cosmic cycles in total, each lasting for a 1,000 years? Well, Yitzchak deMin Acco had a revelation, in which those previous 42,000 years were divine years, and hence, a day on earth = a 1,000 on G-d's end. This, of course, was counted for in his calculation of the age of the universe.

4. The English rendered "firmament" was deceptively mistranslated from the original Hebrew. It's actually רָקִיעַ (raqiya`), and means "expanse." It doesn't mean "dome." 

_________________________________________

P.S., Joeseph, there's your proof! If you can debunk what I wrote (the above was from my blog), I'll leave Judaism for good. Why? Because it would no longer be sufficient and logical to believe in it. If not, then perhaps you'll turn? That must be a scary thought for you, I bet! Anyways, I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm here to show you the truth, so that when you face your trail with G-d (and no one will say kaddish by the way!), you'll be reminded f that one day of the Jew who was right.

Joeseph

@Judaism

Thats not proof , it’s utter nonsense based on a book of nonsense why not get a copy of Harry Potter and post some” proofs “ from that as it’s possibly more accurate 

Judaism

@poco @YeshuaBought @with_all_humility @Evidence @Erfisflat, and Joeseph 

Can we psak halacha from aggadah/hashkafa?

Many authorities have many opinions. Let's not forget the maaseh rav, nevertheless, to psak, one must know our entire mesorah, former Rishonim, Sugyas and passed Acharonim. Furthermore, he can't overturn a mara d'atra, nor the legal tradition of Judaism, and hence, must weigh his psak accordingly, even if a certain halachot is Minhag HaMakom. In short, he can't go against the d'oraita, d'rabbanan, and da'as Torah, he must follow Beit Hillel over Beit Shammai, Rabbi Yochanan over Rav. But that's halacha, what about hashkafa? Should we support religious Zionism? Should we reject Rav Kook's position that aliyah is in no way a atchalta d'geula, and argue for the Satmar Rebbe, who says it violates the Three Oaths? Rabbi Aharon Feldman said that halacha "applies" to hashkafa. He called it "practical halacha." Yitzchak Elchanan also wrote that his teacher, Rabbi Yosef Dov Halevi Soloveitchik, and his "forefathers," never separated the two. According to him, even one part of hashkafa is still halacha. "Just as there are halachot concerning what one is permitted to do, so too are there halachot concerning what one is permitted to think, what one if forbidden to think, and what one must think." Then, there's the other side, too. Rav Aryeh Kaplan says that while one may be a ke-neged halacha if he goes against the status quo, he does have a choice when it comes to hashkafa.

Let's take an example: There is a passage in the Gemara which speaks of Rabbi Hillel II, an Amora, on whether or not the Mashiach will really come. This rabbi believed no, because the Jewish people have already consumed it all in the days of King Chizkia. Rav Yosef rebuked him by saying, "May his master [HaShem] forgive Rabbi Hillel II! When did Chizkia [reign]? In the period of the first Beit HaMikdash. Yet [the prophet] Zechariah prophesied [later] during the Second HaMikdash period, and he states [in Zechariah 9:9]: 'Rejoice very much, O Daughter of Zion, trumpet, O Daughter of Yerusalem, behold your king will come to you, righteous and redeemed. . . ." Of course, Rabbi Hillel rejected the 12th Yigdal of Rambam, moreover, the Chatam Sofer says categorically that since the overwhelming majority of sages reject Rabbi Hillel's position, we cannot believe it; this is the same attitude of the Talmud, in Yevamot 14a, just like how Rabbi Eliezer ruled that we can perform machshirei milah on Shabbat. During his time, the sages followed his halacha, once he departed, however, they no longer did, even members of his own community dropped out! This was, again, because the majority rejected his position, after all, the Torah does not belong to G-d, but to us! Now, let's be careful here, because at first glance it seems as if the Chatam Sofer IS applying pask halacha to hashkafa, but this isn't so, for we're not allowed to discredit the Torah by discrediting the Tanakh, hence, we must apply psak halacha to matters of the coming of Mashiach!

But what about "pure" hashkafa? Ones that have no halachic ramifications whatsoever? A Baraita says that for two and a half years (a machlokes), the academy of Shammai and Hillel argued over matters of hashkafa. The former said that it would be a no'ach lo for man not to have been created at all, while the latter said otherwise. The Baraita then says "yefashfesh 'ma'asav." What does nimnu v'gamru mean? It indicates that this issue seems to meet the criteria for consideration as pure hashkafa, hence, the sages voted, then followed the majority. This is where they got their psak in hashkafa from, after all, the Bas Kol did say that the halacha agreed with Beit Hillel (and this is ultimately where the Rambam pulled his source from, being that psak doesn't apply to hashkafa). But this is just one means of interpretation. The Maharasha said that nimnu does not refer to a vote, but to a count. Hence, the tannaim counted the number of mitzvot aseh against the number of mitzvot lo ta'aseh; and this process took two and a half years to complete! Hence, since there are more mitzvot lo ta'aseh, man is more likely to receive punishment for breaking them than reward for keeping the mitzvot aseh, thus, the reason why it would have been better had man never been created. Even more intriguing is the fact that the Maharasha claimed that the entire debate (including the year and a half), was allegorical, therefore, he understood nimnu v'gamru as indicating that they reached a philosophical consensus, as opposed to a vote or psak (the Mahari Mintz says the Baraita did have halahic ramification, since it explains that the Chazal phrased the Birchot HaSachar in a negative connotation, being we're forced to battle with the never-ending yetzer hara).

Another example, the Rambam makes this point himself in Perush HaMishnayos on Shavuos, at the end of Makkos. He was basing it off the Gemara, that's his source, specifically to its illusion in Menachos, where it speaks of hilchasa le-meshicha - hence, the Gemara says we can't posken halacha for Mashiach. Case in point: The Gemara says that "These and these are the words of the living G-d," as in a dispute; the expression is found twice, for example, in the beginning of Gitten, where it says about the Pilegesh killed in Givah, by the tribe of Benjamin, and put into charem for a while until it was lifted. For this reason, Chamisha Asar B'Av was made a yom tov, so the Gemara seeks as to why her husband put her away, what was his right, and what did he have against her? According to one view, he found a fly, another says he found a hair. Rav Avyasar spoke with Eliagu what HaKadosh Baruch was dealing with. Eliahu's answer? The Pelgesh in Givah; so both opinions were right. Rav then asked him a question, "But how can there be a question in heaven?" What did Eliagu say? "Both are the words of HaShem." That was it, he offered him no other explanation.

Now, let's move into Rashi. He comments on Bereshit 33:3-4, that, "It is known halacha ("halacha b'yadu'a") that Esav hates Yaakov." By his expression, this halacha means hashkafa as well. This is based on Aruch, who wrote that the term "halacha" connotes a concept that goes on ("holeich") from beginning to end, or, alternatively, a matter by which the Jewish nation goes. Then again, we have other commentators, who noted that in Sifri, the language is antithetical to this interpretation, since, it is stated as a question: "Is it known ("halacha b'yadu'a") that Esav hates Yaakov?" Perhaps this is because that was Rashi's original intent, and that the copyist made a mistake? It is suggested that his original might have read more along the lines of הל בידוע, if so, then the abbreviation was erroneously understood to connote to halacha, whereas Rashi connoted to ha'lo (he wasn't talking about future groups of people, just the hatred between two brothers which was resolved). Moreover, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein posed the argument that halacha is relevant, therefore, Rashi meant to teach us, that, just as halacha never changes or departs, so too does Esav's hatred for Yaakov.

Okay, before we move on to Rambam, I want to cite the Bavli vs. Yerushalmi. According to Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak HaKohen Kook, there is a difference between the two at the beginning of Perek Eilu Hein HaNechnakim in Sanhedrin, therefore, there's a question as to whether or not psak applies to hashkafa, after all, it is the subject of dispute between two Talmuds! They both examine Devarim 17:8, don't they? It talks about a "matter of davar," doesn't it? No one, then, can rebel against the ruling of the judges, and the place HaShem has chosen for them (note that the Hebrew term "shofet" means "master/teacher," just as rabbi). Now, here's the crux: The Bavli says that davar refers to halacha, while the Yerushalmi says it refers to aggadah (or matters of hashkafa)! What was Rav Kook's answer: That while the Yerushalmi states that the court decides on both matters, the Bavli limits its jurisdiction to halacha only. He said that in Eretz Yisrael, the Torah was learned with prophetic stimulation, which diminished the distinction between halacha and aggadah, but in Chutz LaAretz, learning could only be attained by reason alone, since prophecy was no longer available, hence, the clarity of aggadah couldn't be assessed. But Rav Kook doesn't end there, he says that in the age of Mashiach, both will be accessible again. Now, one would think why not now? After all, many Jews have chosen aliyah over g'lut, right? Not so, says Rav Kook, while some may live in Eretz Yisrael, we're still in the time where Bavli is the operative, and hence, there is no psak hashkafa. Then, we run into other interpretations for the existing contradiction. Both the Pnei Moshe and Korban HaEdah, for example, say that the Yerushalmi's explanation of davar as being part of its definition of muflah she'b'beit din as being the one (with the majority's consensus) to make zaken mamrei applicable, is the correct understanding. They say its novelty position is that the requirement of the foremost member of the Great Court be not only an expert in halacha, but also in aggadah, too; therefore, by this approach, the Yerushalmi has nothing to say when it comes to the issue of psak hashkafa. 

Finally, we can move into the Rambam himself. Remember what I said earlier? In his Commentary of the Mishneh, he writes clearly about the issue, and his thoughts. Well, we'll just have to examine some more sources then. Are you ready?

1. Commentary on Sotah 3:3: "And I have already told you more than once that whenever the sages dispute a matter of perspective or opinion that has no bearing on any actual practice, one cannot say the law is in accordance with one of them."
2. Commentary on Shavuot 1:4: "And we have already explained that in regard to any logical position that does not pertain to any actual practice it cannot be said that the law is in accordance with so-and-so."
3. Commentary to Sanhedrin, Introduction to Chapter 10, when asked about if one has a place in Olam HaBa: "We have already mentioned to you several times that in regard to any dispute among Chazal that does not pertain to actual practice, but is solely in the realm of ideas, there is no room to render a psak in favor of one of them."

Does Rambam therefore reject the notion that one could apply psak to hashkafa? It seems so. Though it should be warned that some contemporary scholars think he might have contradicted himself, the example is found in Hilchot Teshuva (7:4).

The Gemara, in Berachot, says that once there was a dispute between Rabbi Yochanan and Rabbi Avahu as to whether or not a Baal Teshuva is on a higher plain than a Teshuva could be in a lifetime of righteousness. The Rambam seems to agree with the former, keep in mind now that this all deals with hashkafa alone, and therefore, he is committed to psak in this area. This seems to contradict what he wrote in Peirush HaMishnayot, right? In truth, however, there is no contradiction, this is because Yad Hazaka includes a long exhortation of advice on things not halachic! The encouragement for the Baal Teshuva only serves as an illustration of that, and to top that, Rambam writes, "the sages said that the place in which Baal Teshuva stands is one that complete Tzaddikim cannot attain." In other words, this is no halchaic ruling, but the hashkafa is certainly there! In fact, Rambam also said that if there was a dispute on emunah between the Tanaim, Amoraim, and Gedolim, which involved philosophical outlooks, he couldn't offer a psak, rather, we shouldn't be tide down to any one opinion other than that which we admire most; as long as there are no halachic ramifications.

In conclusion, we have seen many opinions as to whether or not there is any psak on hashkafa. After all, are there any definitive rulings when it comes to values, perspectives, and philosophical outlooks? Hence, if psak doesn't apply to hashkafa, then Jews need not worry about whether or not to take the majority opinion (just like they would on a decision of halacha). If this is the case, as it seems to be, then not only are there no halachic ramifications for any particular hashkafa, but we can delight in upholding the view of a da'at yachid, as the Rambam did in Peirush HaMishnayot. This is why no one could announce with absolute authority on whether or not Malachi and Ezra were the same people (Tosfos agrees with this, the Mahartz Chiyus, disagrees), since there is no psak on history either (see Radvaz 8:71 for details).

___________________________________________________

So what was my point with all this? To show you why we, as Jews, can follow the Sefer HaTemunah and claim with authority, the age of the universe. Unlike our Christian brothers and sisters, we're not tied down to the literal interpretation of the Bible. We don't have to believe the world is 6,000 years old because Bereshit actually contradicts it, and because when it comes to psaken halacha from hashkafa, you can take any view you want, it doesn't matter. You're not suppose to psak. We don't have to follow "the majority" on this one, we can choose for ourselves. Surely, the marvel of Judaism.

Judaism

@poco @YeshuaBought @with_all_humility @Evidence @Erfisflat

Joeseph said, "Bet your wife is a porker ......better no@Erfisflat

Guys, should I also train him on kashrut?

Judaism

Darn! He said, "better not eat her." Hope you get the joke now!

Judaism

Joeseph

I offered you proof. Y'know, you look weak when all you do is say I'm wrong. Have I ever done that, once? I've always offered proof. One time, I had a debate with a fellow Jew if Rambam was kosher, he was like you, proof after proof, and what in the end? He said I was crazy, even though 99% (I guess he's the 1%) follow the legal rulings of Rambam. What am I suppose to do, leave my Shul for this crazy guy? And we spent months on it, you can see my debate with him on the internet. 

Judaism

Joeseph

When I said "months," I meant more like have a year. Yes, we Jews are hard nuts to crack!

Joeseph

@Judaism

Thats what’s called sarcasm buddy I know you don’t eat pork so I guess your wife’s is “safe “ 

Joeseph

@Judaism

Wow ! You’re desperate now do you honestly think anyone is going to read that nonsense ..."
Are you drunk 

Judaism

Joeseph

I wouldn't use Harry Potter as my book of truth. Its meant to be fiction. The Torah was given to about a million or so people as a huge event, they all witnessed it. That's proves alone that it's divine. Do you want an example of that, too?

Joeseph

@Judaism

But you love Rashi who loved kids , good job 

Joeseph

@Judaism

Newsflash the Torah is .....fiction .......It burns well as kindling in fairness though 

Joeseph

@Judaism

Hmmm the Germans didn’t think so 

Judaism

Joeseph

The Germans couldn't destroy Talmud. I knew your silly post about kosher was sarcasm, that's why I mocked you back on lecturing you on Kosher halacha. It would do you good to read all that I wrote, if I took the time to write it out, guess what, you should read it.

The following post will be my last one for tonight....

Judaism

@poco @YeshuaBought @with_all_humility @Evidence @Erfisflat, and Joeseph 

Guys, have you ever been on an anti-Semite site before? They're real fun, a piece of work. I know some have obviously visited those sites in the past, including me, and they're horrendous. The things they say about us. . . you wouldn't believe them. One such grievance is to deny the Shoah (Holocaust). I don't know why, perhaps they'd - those Neo-Nazis - feel better when they tell themselves that Hitler was really just a good guy, that he was just misunderstood. That he never murdered a Jewish baby in his life. Fair, I'm not sure if Hitler himself ever committed such an atrocity, but he sure ordered it. Nevertheless, how do we protect our kids from being dupped into this mindset? How can we be sure that someday, in the third, or even fourth generation, they too won't go to school, and learn about these diners, and as a result, start to believe the lie? My family, those whom I know, those you LIVED the Holocaust, can never forget. I will never forget when I presented a gift to a Holocaust survivor when I was young. As long as I live, my eyes will remember his number, as well as his story.

Since those few times in which I've visited such sites, I've never gone back. How could I? How could I - out of all people - begin to believe the lie? The lie that the Jewish people are wrong, that we control the world? That we invented the Holocaust to gain world support for Israel. If I continued visiting those sites, I'm sure, I'd be a self-hating Jew too. Luckily, for my sake, that didn't happen. It was wise to quite, to re-examine the evidence. I always knew such slander to by pure myths, and no matter how good the arguments, they will never convince me for a second that the Holocaust never happened. It can't. If it does, I've failed as a Jew, and not only that, I've failed my family. I've failed as a person. 

But again, I may be fine, but not my children, and their children, and their children's children. How can we help? How can we make sure that their young minds won't be crushed into believing their ancestors to be nothing more than the stigma most present our people to be? How can we know they too won't fall into the trap set out by our enemies, those Holocaust diners? Those myth-makers? Their is an answer. I once read about it in a book, it was purposed by someone, but then quickly abandoned. I don't recall the book, nor the person who thought up this idea, but I will say this, it was surely ingenious. If it's not too much a hassle, I'd love to present it right here, right now. Thanks in advance, I'm sure you'll grow to appreciate it later.

The idea is that you preserve the memory of the Holocaust like this: remember the one story regarding the Baal Shem Tov? It goes like this: he always wanted to immigrate to Eretz Yisrael, but he never got there, he reached as far as the Greek Isles, and then he nearly met death, and never attempted it again. One day, he had reached Constantinople, it was the last day of Pesach, so he made thanksgiving to Adonai, and told his descendants to do the same, each year, forever. So what do some Jews do? At the end of Pesach, they sit together and recount the story of the Baal Shem Tov's rescue from the storm at sea, the storm which nearly killed him. This practice has now been going on for generations. Yes, it could be said that we Jews sure got good memory. After all, all of Bereshit and the First Book of Chronicles is about genealogical record (and no, they weren't kept in the Beit HaMikdash when they burnt it down). For centuries, now, Jews have kept track of an oral tradition, spanning as far back as the days of Moshe Rabbeinu. For instance, the Talmud Bavli, in Baba Batra 91a, states that Avraham's mother was Amathalia, the daughter of Karnebo. Now, I get it, most people would laugh at that. How could some rabbis, living generations later, know that? They clearly just made it up, its not in the Bible. Not so fast. It wasn't long for some serious archaeology to discover, in some old Babylonian records in Ebla - as expected - the very name. And it wasn't just any name, but a royal title. There! Bible critics are now the one's being laughed at, after all, we've got proof of Avraham's grandfather! 

Can we get side-tracked for just a minute? Look at the Christian Bible. There was a study done not long ago which opted that there are - at max - 150,000 variations. This is because there were so many copies, so many mistakes. When you do the math, you'll find that 400 of these variations affect the interpretation of the text, and 50 are the exact result of this! Now, compare this to the Jewish Bible. After more than double the centuries, in double the horrendous conditions (our persecutions by other nations as well as many communities being utterly isolated from one another), the same study found that there was only one Torah - from all over the world, literally, from Siberia to Yemen, and of course, this is not to mention that they were all hand-written, too! Between all these thousands upon thousands of copies, there were only nine variations. Nine! Contrasted to a mega 400,000! These resulted in some words being misspelled here and there. None of them affect to meaning of the text. How can this be possible? Perhaps its because, for generations, Jews have been told to copy these texts publicly, and then all of the people would learn it by heart, so if there was a mistake found, it could be corrected. It goes unsaid that this wasn't the case with the Catholic Church for a long time. Now also note that the New Testament isn't even a fraction of the whole Tanakh. That's the real miracle. 

See? We Jews are good with passing information down the line. Our transferal process has some credibility, it's by no means perfect, but it's as best as it can get. That's good to hear. It helps. But it's not enough. Our children may still end up denying that the Holocaust ever took place. I'm going to continue the idea now, please stay with me here.

So here's the idea, all of that above were just examples: man has two abilities to gather new information, primary and secondary sources. We can read documents, watch films, but all of these can be misleading, any dummy can learn Photoshop. . . or. . . we can hear it for ourselves, from those who witnesses such events. Primary knowledge. If we don't learn our lesson, if we can't preserve the memory of the Holocaust, our children's children will grow up thinking that those Nazis who smashed the skulls of children, and then went to listen to Mozart and commit other acts of atrocities, are nothing but myths. And each year, more survivors die. Our descends sadly won't be able to hear their voices first hand. Primary will become secondary, and that will be it. . . . Unless we do something about it. Unless we prove, once and for all, that their memory isn't lost. That There is integrity. This was the plan. . . .

Every year, all the surviving Holocaust members, and their decedents, travel to Yisrael. There, even though the logistic problems will be mounting, they recite to all what happened. It's an international convention, all are welcomed to come. Their accounts are then put on paper, and read aloud to the public in front of all the survivors to make sure it's right, than they all sign their names as proof of that. This document is then known as the Shoah Manifesto. The survivors, and their children's children, make an origination. A society to protect and defend the truth of the Holocaust. The society creates rules all are to follow, this will help keep it alive in their hearts for the coming generations. Each week, the members of the society meet to pay their respects to the victims and read sections of the Manifesto aloud. Three times a year, they commemorate that fateful day when all came to create the Manifesto by committing themselves to unique ceremonies. One such festival is called the Festival of Liberation, on that day, members eat crusts of bread the symbolize what their ancestors had for food at Auschwitz, Dachau, and Treblinka, as well as remember the liberation. Another festival is the Festival of Ships, on this day, all members leave their homes to live on ship-like dwellings to commemorate departure from Europe to the United States. Again, they also read the Manifesto publicly. On the Festival of the Formation of the Society, members gather together to read the entire Manifesto. For every child born into the Shoah Society, they're given a blue numbered tattoo on their right forearm, this is done so that they never forget what their ancestors witnessed. As they mature, they're to memorize the whole Manifesto, and on their thirteenth birthday, are expected to join the community of Shoah Witnesses. They are forbidden to marry outside of the Society, this is done so that they may maintain the integrity of their mission as witnesses. Of course, anyone can join the group, all they have to do is adopt all its rulings. 

Members of the Shoah Society are also demanded to wear on their outer garments, yellow Jude stars; they cannot accept any products manufactured in Germany; they wrap affix scrolls containing selected parts of the Manifesto, in tubes wrapped in barbed wire, and place these on their doorposts. Finally, each Shoah Witness must fulfill his or her mission in life by producing a hand-written scroll of the entire Manifesto, preferably once in their life. 

These rules cannot - under any condition - be violated. If a person so chooses to wear a pink star, he or she is excommunicated from the community. All of these rules, of course, were all written in the very first Manifesto, so there are no exceptions, no additions, no subtractions. It cannot be altered, ever. In the Manifesto itself, it demands its fellow Shoah Witnesses to distribute hundreds, if not thousands, of copies of itself to be passed along, around the world, for future verification. Each family is to personally own a scroll containing all its legalities and descriptions of the event. They're to read it daily. This serves as a living testimony to the memory of the Holocaust. Lastly, a huge marble slab is to have been recorded to have been presented to the original survivors that day when they visited Yisrael to draw up the Manifesto, it can, of course, still be seen today, in Yisrael. This was done so that future generations could match their scrolls perfectly with the marble slab, the heart of the Shoah Society's geographic location. This, again, is to preserve the integrity of the event.  

Over the next several hundred years, many members choose to leave the Soceity all together, still, many are true to their mission in life: to promote the truth and accuracy of the Holocaust. After a few generations, there are millions upon millions of Shoah Witnesses. They're are over a billion copies of the Manifesto, and the memory of the Holocaust survivors is not lost for the ages. These people need not only recognize each other based on their personal copies of the Manifesto, you can spot one just by the manner of their dress, or the customs to do at home and abroad. But it can all only work if it's a closed system, no room for rumors to spread. The integrity of the Holocaust must be kept pure if it is to survive. False stories cannot circulate while disregarding what's written in the scroll. The point is that it happened. The Holocaust was once a real world event. After all, who could have penetrated such a lie, where could it have been conceived? How could a whole society be tricked, at any point in time, to following its strange traditions if it weren't all true? It has to be true. So many people couldn't have been dupped in one day had the Holocaust never happen. The members of the Society not only testify that the Holocaust happened - as an event - they also testify to the authentic creation of the Manifesto itself, and from there on, it speaks for itself. After all, the whole Manifesto was deemed and approved by the original survivors, and its wide distribution confirms it. There are no altered copies of it in existence. The credentials of the Manifesto are that of a genuine testimony of the survivors who faced the ovens, rape, and torture at these camps, year after brutal year. Those who read the Manifesto cannot but help hear the courageous, yet pain-filled voices of its authors over the great chasms of time. 

What do you think? A creative idea, nonetheless, right? Pretty impressive, I think. Of course, none of the such will take place in our lifetime, nor our children's children. 

But did you get my point? It was all an analogy. Because something of this sort did happen once before, though it had nothing to do with the Holocaust. It had to deal with HaShem's revelation to the whole Jewish people; tradition tells us that there were millions of witnesses, it must have been a huge event. Today, as centuries before them, Jews, the world over, still follow the strict customs and traditions of our elders. . . those who witnessed the mountain burn with the passion of love.

Earlier, G-d had the Hebrews slaughter the lambs as a commemoration for Pesach - our deliverance from the land of Egypt. These lambs represented the false gods, and served to illustrate that fine point. G-d was pretty much saying that He could end the lives of the gods at a moment’s notice, and whereas the gods of Egypt couldn’t escape the flames the Israelites sent them too, G-d not only survived it, but thrived in it. It is through the fire at Mount Sinai that the Ein Sof declared to us the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments), the Torah - in full, in both its written and Oral form, and made in Hebrew what’s called a “ketubah,” or a marriage contract. Essentially, G-d was marrying the nation of Israel; and we were the bride. He proposed to us by giving us the Torah, and we accepted. It’s really a beautiful illustration at describing our relationship with Him. Here, take a look:

". . . Beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, and you shall make them known to your children and to your children's children, the day you stood before Adonai your G-d at Horeb, when Adonai said to me, ‘Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.’ And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness. Adonai spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice. And He told you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments, and He inscribed them on two stone tablets.” - Devarim 4:9-13

By this account, the whole nation of Israel experienced the revelation of Sinai en masse, and each one, individually, accepted the Torah as his or her life-guiding force into a personal and spiritual relationship with G-d. Hence, the Passover lamb symbolizes the fear and end of the pagan gods as well as it symbolizes our marriage with the one G-d, the one Who defeated the enemies of Israel, and married them with the passion of fire. And our G-d lives to this day, in all His glory.

Judaism

Note: when I write about pagan gods, I don't mean to ever connote their existence at one point in time.

dbox

@Joeseph

You assume the immorality before proving it is immoral. By what standard do you judge God's actions as immoral?

Evidence

Joeseph said:

 (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder.  They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived.  After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded.  “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

hey @Joeseph did you notice I marked the "Great Argument"   button, .. on your Bible quote, .. before you put any of your senselessness into it!?

Joeseph

@Evidence

Did you notice I don't care ? ,you're yet another who thinks a god that commands the murder of children is great , you would no doubt applaud such actions as you look on in glee

Joeseph

Ah right , so in your world the killing of kids is a moral act at least you're on the same page a son your fellow Christians on here ,my standards are that I am morally superior to a child killer , you on the other hand see yourself as morally inferior to a child killer 

Joeseph

@Judaism

Hilarious you reject the existence of other gods but believe your particular brand exists 

poco

@Joeseph

I said ..... Every one of you “ Christians “ are so predictable yous all leap to defend the immorality of a tyrant as in god , it’s excelent material for  me because I get to see first hand the appalling effect indoctrination has on the weak willed  

You replied .......None of my answers are in accordance with what you believe as depicted above.  I have defended what the bible's message is from knowing the interpretation & contextual meaning of additional verses that apply to the ones you have used to vent your obvious bias & hate.

you:  My reply ......Ah right your “interpretation”  and “ contextual “ meaning , absolute nonsense , so there  is a “ good “ context for slaughtering women and CHILDREN do tell please .......I’m using your book with your gods words so yes I hate child murderer tragically you and your buddies worship a .....child murderer that’s not bias it’s fact ?

me:  Sounding a bit repetitive aren't you?  No matter the answers given, you always say the same exact things.  Rather than staying stagnant re your knowledge of the bible, why not expand your horizons with some study of it?   Gotta wonder if you fought "new math" when it was introduced years ago ....... bc you didn't bother to explore the intricacies of it, & therefore you never learned anything other than what YOU considered worthwhile.  Oh well ........

You say .....

It's so funny that you & some others use only the literal words for your rants on them, rather than pursuing what is the overall teaching & message.

you:  My reply .....It’s so funny that previous generations accepted the Bible as written and now Christians are so embarrassed by it they cannot even stand by it

me:  So you are a historical expert on past interpretations of the bible also huh?  I gotta wonder why Martin Luther & others fought so hard re interpretations.  Methinks you better do some more historical research there bucko.  Wrong yet again.  Embarrassed by what pray tell? 

You say .......I bet when an instructor in school in your past asked you to give an analysis of a book that had a hidden message, like "Animal Farm" by Orwell, you wrote your report saying it was only about a bunch of disgruntled animals that were upset with the farmer/owner.  &, as in the case with your interpretation of the bible here, your instructor would have given you a failing grade bc you only read the story as far s the literal words led you. 

you:  My reply .....I bet when you were handed “Animal Farm “ you thought it was a book about space exploration because you set up a group of so called experts to re - define what Orwell was really saying

me:  You're kidding here.  You really don't know what "Animal Farm" was referring to do you?  Wowie!?!  Amazing.  Just gotta laugh .....

You say .....You have not/do not study the hidden message contained w/in.  One misses out so very much living in a literal only world.  So sad.

you:  My reply ..... Ah there’s hidden messages now which of course only you and your sect know ......so sad

me:  This pretty much tells everything re your biblical knowledge.  With your admitting you think "Animal Farm" is only what the literal words say re the disgruntled actual animals & their farmer, shows your literal ignorance re all of literature, not only the bible.  Are you really serious with these answers you have given today?  I may have thought you were seriously biased re God & the bible, but you now have shown that it all stems from the way you perceive ALL of literary works ....... literal word versions only. 

I surely hope you haven't taught your kids this method.  Any arguments you have made in the past are completely worthless bc of your refusal to pursue literal comprehension.  Ya know, you're not worth the time to have discourse with bc of your lack of education of ALL literature, not only the bible.  Good luck to you sir.  Geez.

Please no need to respond further.  You have dumbed down this site since your arrival ............ & now I can clearly see why. 

poco

@Judaism @Judaism @poco @YeshuaBought @with_all_humility

you:  Guys, there's a reason why I HATE to have to do all this. There's a reason. Because I have to wake up early in the morning and defend the religion - in fact, all religions, don't fall for Islamophobia - which preaches peace, love, and turn the other cheek (Judaism is similar to that), instead of kicking the other guy, the little atheist, in the crutch. 

me:  Don't waste your time any longer with joseph.  He's just baiting everyone here for his jollies.  He has proven time & time again, that he knows nothing but a word-only literal version of the bible with no contextual interpretation at all.  He's just attempting to get under your skin & laughing while he's doing it.  Trolls like him should be ignored bc they'll go away once they know that their arguments are worthless drivel & not given the time of day, they'll go onto some other topic to spend their days trying to upset others with nonsense.   Ignore him .......... he'll go away, tail tucked.

Joeseph

@poco

Glad you got that off your  chest , actually i've rarely come across a site with so many cretins (mostly "Christian " also ) on it and you're more or less top of the pile , no wonder you're in a rage as you and your fellow hypocrites attempt to justify child murder and failing in your case  because of your genetic stupidity ..............You've been schooled again son by your superior

Joeseph

@poco

You and your buddies still upset because you all say god was correct to slaughter children and no doubt would kill your own kids if he asked you do .so .,..,....P.S He asked this in the past 


Yous all got a good schooling and don't like it because its all there in black and white in the ......Bile........

Youre welcome