Is religious indoctrination child abuse?

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987:

"It was a result of the religion that led to the kid dying! How can you not see that!

Instead of going to a doctor, which they could've done until he died, they put oil and just PRAYED!

Did you actually read about the case?"

Where do you think this information came from Zombieguy1978? 

(Jeffrey and Marci Beagley were found guilty of criminally negligent homicide after a two-week trial.)

Religion itself wasn't found guilty along with them was it?

I didn't see anywhere where religion was found guilty of criminally negligent homicide along with the individuals did you? 

Did you read anywhere were Religion was found guilty along with Jeffrey and Marci Beagley? 

Do you maybe view the law differently when it maybe comes to an atheist individual committing a crime verses a religious individual? 

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987:

Do you have a counter argument? 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

 Christianity is a cult your failure to understand definitions continues to give you problems , your other argument about drunk drivers is mere deflection and makes sense to no one on here , you’re obsessed with Christian  drunk drivers are you one of them? 

TTKDB

@Joeseph:

If an atheist individual commits a crime, who might the atheist offender maybe blame their offense on? 

Might they blame their offense on their own actions, or blame it on their atheist thought process?  

TTKDB

@Joeseph

Care to comment? 

What about the atheist drunk drivers Joe? 

Being that drunk drivers have killed 1.6 million people, do you not have an issue with that?  

TTKDB

@Joeseph:

An Atheist Goes Through Alcoholics Anonymous

BY HEMANT MEHTA 

TTKDB

@Joeseph:

What are your thoughts on the below? 

"Atheism and state indoctrination

See also: Atheist indoctrination and State atheism and Causes of atheism and Atheism and communism"

TTKDB

@Joeseph;

What are your thoughts on the below? 

"Atheism and state indoctrination

See also: Atheist indoctrination and State atheism and Causes of atheism and Atheism and communism 

TTKDB

@Joeseph;

What are your thoughts on the below? 

"Atheism and state indoctrination

See also: Atheist indoctrination and State atheism and Causes of atheism and Atheism and communism 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Care to comment? 

What about the Christian drunk drivers Joe? 

Being that drunk drivers have killed 1.6 million people, do you not have an issue with that?  

Joeseph

@TTKDB

I don’t read  

Joeseph

@TTKDB

More rubbish from your Indoctrinated Christian drunkards website , your parents put you onto this site? 

Orthodox_Christian

@Zombieguy1987
Religious people not even understanding their own religion isn't a case for being anti-religion in general. If they were theologically literate at all, they'd know they while you should also trust and pray to God, you can't just totally depend on God and be some lazy bum. You have to do your part too. One of the Evangelists was a physician. 

Nathaniel_B

I wouldn't say its child abuse, but that religious indoctrination is completely wrong. Religion belongs in religious schools, and has no place in education. 

TTKDB

@Joeseph:

Being that drunk drivers have killed 1.6 million people, do you not have an issue with that?  

Why would you repeat my question back to me Joeseph?

Do you have a counter argument! 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Being that Christian drunk drivers have killed 1.6 million people, do you not have an issue with that?  

Why would you repeat my question back to me Joeseph?

Do you have a counter argument! 


Maybe you Christians ought not to drink and drive ?

Zombieguy1987

TTKDB said:

@Joeseph;

What are your thoughts on the below? 

"Atheism and state indoctrination

See also: Atheist indoctrination and State atheism and Causes of atheism and Atheism and communism 

Conservapedia?

Seriously...

ZeusAres42

Any form indoctrination imposed upon children is child abuse and that includes Religious indoctrination too.

Sand

Since the definition of indoctrination is:

the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

Wouldn't that include evolution?

Since evolution is not falsifiable.

So religious teachings has been removed from secular education.

Evolution teachings need to be removed also.

ZeusAres42

Sand said:

Since the definition of indoctrination is:

the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

Wouldn't that include evolution?

Since evolution is not falsifiable.

So religious teachings has been removed from secular education.

Evolution teachings need to be removed also.

I just did a debate about what evolution is. It's a scientific study with multiple subsections that encompasses a multitude of facts, theories, hypothesis, and so forth. So, no, Evolution is not indoctrination, and it's like me saying Geography is indoctrination. In short, this is nonsensical scientific vocabulary.

Sand

The same could be said of religion.
It's a study with multiple subsections that encompasses a multitude of facts, theories, hypothesis, and so forth. Religious people look at the same information and form a different conclusion.

So if evolution is not indoctrination, then religion is not indoctrination.

Nevertheless, teaching children one conclusion (theory - idea to explain something, hypothesis - proposed explaination with limited info) over another with a lack of criticism or consideration of whether something is right or wrong is exactly the defintion of indoctrination. The fact that evolution is offered without  religious conclusion is indoctrination.
Both ideas have to be taught.

ZeusAres42

Sand said:

The same could be said of religion.
It's a study with multiple subsections that encompasses a multitude of facts, theories, hypothesis, and so forth. Religious people look at the same information and form a different conclusion.

So if evolution is not indoctrination, then religion is not indoctrination.

Nevertheless, teaching children one conclusion (theory - idea to explain something, hypothesis - proposed explaination with limited info) over another with a lack of criticism or consideration of whether something is right or wrong is exactly the defintion of indoctrination. The fact that evolution is offered without  religious conclusion is indoctrination.
Both ideas have to be taught.

Firstly, let us not forget what this debate is about and that is whether religious indoctrination is child abuse; not about if religion is indoctrination. Religion and religious indoctrination are two different things. Furthermore, learning about something such as religion or evolution is not indoctrination; I also remember this from my own experience having learned about science and religion in school. During those years I don't remember being dictated to as to what to believe and what not to.

Also, just because something does not entail a religious conclusion does not mean its indoctrination.

Hereafter, I will contend that "religious indoctrination" imposed upon child is indeed child abuse. Not only, that but religious indoctrination is also synonymous with radicalization which does and has lead to extremism and ultimately, horrible acts terrorism.

all4actt

@Joeseph

You said>>>Religious children are far less able to distinguish fantasy from reality

Where is the evidence to support this argument.

Whether the "indoctrination" of a child into a religion is psychologically abusive or physically abusive to a child depends on the religion.  You can't group all religious beliefs as being abusive.

Some of our greatest thinkers in history were raised and continued to practice the religion they were "indoctrinated " in.  Some of our current great thinkers still do.

It is a parents responsibility to teach their children.  If religion and religious values are important to them then they are not abusing them they are just teaching them what they know in their hearts to be true.  Whether others believe the way do or not.

I don't undrestand athiest who have such a problem with religion.  What are athiest so afraid of?

ZeusAres42

all4actt said:

@Joeseph

You said>>>Religious children are far less able to distinguish fantasy from reality

Where is the evidence to support this argument.

I have to say that I somewhat agree with you here. It's not that Religious Children are far less able to distinguish fantasy from reality. It is in fact that all little children are less likely able to distinguish fantasy from reality. And the evidence here I think is pretty self-evident. I am sure most of us can appreciate how as young children that we thought the actors on T.V. were real people in real situations.

Whether the "indoctrination" of a child into a religion is psychologically abusive or physically abusive to a child depends on the religion.  You can't group all religious beliefs as being abusive.

This is an interesting statement you made here that has just got me thinking more deeply haha. If a child is being labelled and told what to believe is gospel right from the get-go, then aren't they being deprived of the right to be able grow up learning to think critically, for themselves, and decide what or what not to believe?

Some of our greatest thinkers in history were raised and continued to practice the religion they were "indoctrinated " in.  Some of our current great thinkers still do.

I can't really comment on this as I have no idea who these great thinkers are, whether they were indoctrinated, what religions they practice, what makes them great thinkers, etc. With that being said, I will grant that some religious indoctrination is less harmful than others. And there's a plethora of other things to explore here, but I will leave that being a discussion to have another day.

It is a parents responsibility to teach their children.  If religion and religious values are important to them then they are not abusing them they are just teaching them what they know in their hearts to be true.  Whether others believe the way do or not.

Another good point. However, the ignorance of the harm caused by someone does not excuse the harm being done by that someone. Also, I would prefer a child learn how to think for themselves, and make their own minds up as to what to believe or not.

I don't undrestand athiest who have such a problem with religion.  What are athiest so afraid of?

A great many people who call themselves Atheists are not true Atheists in the true sense of the word "Atheist."  Some people who call themselves Atheists do actually have some kind of antipathy towards theism, and some will deny with great certainty that God doesn't exist. However, that's not Atheism as Atheism is not denialism; it's a healthy form of scepticism. Likewise, a great many people who call themselves religious are not truly religious. For example, in the US there's about more than 80% of people that are Christians and less than 40% of them have actually read the Bible, and still an even lesser percentage that is knowledgeable about the historical story of the Bible.

JohnSmith

@Joeseph

My reply .... Children are not given the choice regards religion most are introduced to it from infancy and its re-forced daily by churches , schools and their particular societies which are mostly made up of likewise individuals 

Children who are Atheists..who are raised Atheists..are they given a choice...or are they forced to be Atheists until at least age 18???

JohnSmith

@Joeseph

It’s also most amusing to me to hear most religious people recoil at the idea that I use the term abuse , tell me is it not mental abuse to tell a child he/she will roast in Hell for disobeying gods word ? Is it abuse to tell a child that gays , lesbians and others are evil ? Or that worship of another god demands a fiery eternity in Hell ? 

There is no evidence that children are going to roast in Hell for not believing in God's Word. So any parent who tells their child that they will roast in Hell for not believing in God's words is lying to them. 

https://carm.org/what-happens-to-babies-or-infants-who-die

"While the Bible does not explicitly say where young children go when they die in infancy, it seems to imply that they go to heaven."

"First, there is no verse in Scripture which states that those unbelievers will go to hell because they were not old enough to believe.  Since God is just, it would appear that He would allow these infants to go to Heaven."

"Is it abuse to tell a child that gays, lesbians and others are evil?"

There is nothing to suggest that we think Gays and Lesbians are evil. In reality, we disagree with their chosen lifestyle and like or not, we are allowed to disagree, and that isn't being Homophobic or practicing Discrimination. Also, it is a lie to say that God hates you if you are Gay. That is what the Movie "Boy Erased" said based off of the Trailer. God does not hate you if you are Gay. He hates the Sin. "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin". 

https://carm.org/discrimation-homosexual-wrong

https://carm.org/homosexuality-normal

https://carm.org/homosexuals-are-born-way-therefore-it-natural-and-good

https://carm.org/god-created-me-as-a-homosexual-therefore-it-is-okay

https://carm.org/why-did-god-make-me-gay

https://carm.org/sin-homophobia

https://carm.org/why-are-christians-homophobic

The one's in bold are the one's that I definitely think you should look at out of all of them.

https://www.gotquestions.org/LGBTQ-persecution.html

"The most insidious temptation related to seeing others being persecuted is apathy. As Christians, when we see members of the LGBTQ+ community being persecuted, we have a responsibility to act. Jesus said, “Love your neighbor” (Luke 10:27). It doesn’t matter what our neighbor’s opinion is on moral or sexual ethics, the command applies. Loving those in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) community means, in part, we do not condone acts of persecution against them—we do not excuse violence, injustice, or any behavior that brings harm. Doing good to those in the LGBTQ community means we are proactive in aiding them in times of trouble."

https://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-homophobic.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-hate-gays.html

JohnSmith

@Joeseph

" He teaches undergraduate- and graduate-level courses on statistics, family, and religion,I would take his words with a large pinch of salt"

Of course you would. Because your Bias against anything that has to do with religion it seems.

Dee

@JohnSmith ****There is no evidence that children are going to roast in Hell for not believing in God's Word. 

Yet the religious have stated this for 100s of years or are you denying that?


****So any parent who tells their child that they will roast in Hell for not believing in God's words is lying to them.

Read above , what your really saying is believers are liars as they were the ones saying it on this I agree 

***While the Bible does not explicitly say where young children go when they die in infancy, it seems to imply that they go to heaven

."Yet your preachers , pastors and priests have said different traditionally .....”

Hold most firmly and never doubt that, not only adults with the use of reason but also children who either begin to live in the womb of their mothers and who die there or, already born from their mothers, pass from this world without the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, which is given in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, must be punished with the endless penalty of eternal fire. Even if they have no sin from their own actions, still, by their carnal conception and birth, they have contracted the damnation of Original Sin."—Bishop St. Fulgentius[6*


***”First, there is no verse in Scripture which states that those unbelievers will go to hell because they were not old enough to believe.  Since God is just, it would appear that He would allow these infants to go to Heaven

”Your god is just? Ok which is why he approves of owning and beating slaves as they are your property

***There is nothing to suggest that we think Gays and Lesbians are evil. In reality, we disagree with their chosen lifestyle and like or not, we are allowed to disagree, and that isn't being Homophobic or practicing Discrimination. Also, it is a lie to say that God hates you if you are Gay. That is what the Movie "Boy Erased" said based off of the Trailer. God does not hate you if you are Gay. He hates the Sin. "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin".

 The only one lying here is you .....Leviticus 18 and 20"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22. "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

***Jesus said, “Love your neighbor” (Luke 10:27). It doesn’t matter what our neighbor’s opinion is on moral or sexual ethics, the command applies. 

Then you are going against your gods wishes homosexuality, lesbianism and divorce are all forbidden by the Bible , that is of course different if one is American where American Christians seen to think god would approve of carrying a gun , denying fellow Americans universal health care and shunning social welfare and housing

 ***Loving those in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ) community means, in part, we do not condone acts of persecution against them—we do not excuse violence, injustice, or any behavior that brings harm. Doing good to those in the LGBTQ community means we are proactive in aiding them in times of trouble."

Well you’re going against your gods wishes as he hates homosexuality according to the Bible just the he hated certain humans and allowed others to beat and enslave them @JohnSmith

Dee

@JohnSmith

Of course you would. Because your Bias against anything that has to do with religion it seems

You don’t like the fact you’re indoctrinated and deep down you know it so of course you unintelligently accuse me of your faults as in bias 

Dee

@JohnSmith

Children who are Atheists..who are raised Atheists..are they given a choice...or are they forced to be Atheists until at least age 18???

I know two atheist families and the difference is they have let their children make their own minds up on the question , totally different to the religious model which rarely gives them a choice 

ZeusAres42

Dee said:

@JohnSmith

Children who are Atheists..who are raised Atheists..are they given a choice...or are they forced to be Atheists until at least age 18???

I know two atheist families and the difference is they have let their children make their own minds up on the question , totally different to the religious model which rarely gives them a choice 

Given the true meaning of Atheism I can't see how it's possible to force a mind devoid of certain beliefs onto another human being anyway.

Dee

@ZeusAres42

Given the true meaning of Atheism I can't see how it's possible to force a mind devoid of certain beliefs onto another human being anyway. 

Atheism to me is a lack of belief in a god or gods. The mind of a child will accept mostly anything a parental figure as in one in authority says , indoctrination works successfully in the majority of cases as it’s aimed specifically at getting them young 

ZeusAres42

Dee said:

@ZeusAres42

Given the true meaning of Atheism I can't see how it's possible to force a mind devoid of certain beliefs onto another human being anyway. 

Atheism to me is a lack of belief in a god or gods. The mind of a child will accept mostly anything a parental figure as in one in authority says , indoctrination works successfully in the majority of cases as it’s aimed specifically at getting them young 

And that is the true meaning of Atheism - a lack of belief in a God or Gods.

MayCaesar

@JohnSmith

Nobody has ever "forced" me to be Atheist. The topic wasn't really a thing in my family at all; none of us cared about religions. I first heard the world "religion" at the age of 6, and the whole thing seemed bizarre to me even then, so I did not take it seriously. I was not even aware until the age of 10-11 that there was someone on this planet who believed in these things. I personally paid them no heed, and they were not even on the spectrum of my thoughts.

My parents always taught me to question everything. With religion, I did not even have to question it much, beyond, "So, where is the evidence?" Since the answer was "nowhere", this is where my questioning ended.

People who grow up in religious families seem to project their beliefs on everyone else. They do not realise that a lot of people in this world simply do not even think about religious categories. Nobody needs to actively promote Atheism for people to not follow religions; it is quite the opposite, in fact: it is the religions that need to be promoted for people to follow them.

noah06

@ZeusAres42 I am a 13 year old teen. I don't think parents in general try to coach or push the idea of religion at least my experience with mine and my friends.  The point of religion that people that dont believe in it seem to dont understand is that christianity is to try to be a better person or a moral person example it says in the bible in short terms you shouldn't steal or kill that's moral to most people but you always don't go to hell if you do these things in short terms also the bible says that as long as you believe in god your sins will perish or be forgiven by hm

noah06

noah06 said:

@ZeusAres42 I am a 13 year old teen. I don't think parents in general try to coach or push the idea of religion at least my experience with mine and my friends.  The point of religion that people that dont believe in it seem to dont understand is that christianity is to try to be a better person or a moral person example it says in the bible in short terms you shouldn't steal or kill that's moral to most people but you always don't go to hell if you do these things in short terms also the bible says that as long as you believe in god your sins will perish or be forgiven by him. And it's not really bad that parents teach their religion. Example If you dont believe in any god your most likely going to be a little bias to your children and try to explain to them that there is no god. And if you are a Christian and you don't tell you children about your religion they're gonna wonder why you leave every or sometimes morning for 2 hours.

AlofRI

"Is religious indoctrination "Child abuse"? That would be hard to prove, but, it IS "mind abuse".

RickeyD

@Joeseph ; Atheism is a religion as is Evolution and any child raised in a home of godless atheists-evolutionists is child destined for failure in both Time and Eternity. Raising a child to love and honor Jesus Christ as Lord and love and honor the Holy Bible and apply its edicts to their lives is the only hope for our children's successful future and the success of America's Constitutional Republic. 

Happy_Killbot

I would like to provide @RickeyD as prof that religious indoctrination is in fact child abuse. There is just no way that someone would act and think like that unless they were made institutionally afraid of hell and the teachings of religion.

Obviously, there is no correlation between success and belief ( unless you live in a country that makes it a point to harass and/or kill non-believers in the state sponsored religion )

Nor is there correlation between the moral acts of a person and religious beliefs.
https://www.livescience.com/47799-morality-religion-political-beliefs.html

Religion is it's own purpose, it's own life-form. It exists only to serve itself, and doesn't care about us except as a means to an end.

Dee

@RickeyD

**** Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby. Evolution is fact.

If you’re an example of a “trained up Christian “ one would be better off leaving their kids in a crack house as they would grow up with a superior moral compass to you who seems to detest anyone who isn’t a narrow minded rage filled bigot like yourself 

RickeyD

@Dee ; Atheism is the religion of fools, sexual perverts, narcissists, those seeking a life of servitude to Satan. Evolution is the progenitor of modern-day atheism and evolution is a religion based on inferences, assumptions, guesses, not evidence. You are a most avid representative of Satan in Time and lest you repent and turn to Jesus Christ, you will suffer a most horrible judgment in Eternity for your alliance with God's nemesis, Satan.

Dee

@RickeyD

Wow!!!!! A threat from the Bible it must be true ..........

RickeyD

@Dee ; You are free to call our Creator, Jesus Christ-Yeshua, a and serve the father of lies, Satan, in your atheism...but again, the Judgment that awaits you in Eternity is unconscionable as an ally of Satan. Jesus spoke of Noah and used that generation as an example of your wicked mindset and the wrath that would come upon members of this generation who think and purse the lies of atheism just like you!  Jesus warned...

Dee

@RickeyD

RickeyD

@Dee ; It is the fool that denies evidence that confronts them daily. You are free to call the God, the God who gave Himself for you so that you can live, a , but you're only accumulating wrath against yourself for the Day of Wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. Without Jesus as your Lord for the mediation of your sin, you have no hope! Jesus has warned you...

ZeusAres42

@RickeyD

So why is that you agree religious indoctrination is child abuse then?

Dee

@RickeyD