So Religion in general is apparently more responsible

MayCaesar

Religion affects one's world view, moral system, decision-making process, etc. There is no "or" here, it is more of a "chicken or egg" question. Religion affects the individual, individual's traits affect how the individual interprets religion.

For someone inclined for violence, for example, a specific interpretation of religion can become an excuse to unleash their nature on everyone. On the other hand, that same person can be saved from his violent traits by a different interpretation of religion.

Bottom line is: it is complicated. Religion can affect the individual positively or negatively. Whether the religion is responsible for the actions of that individual afterwards is more of a rhetorical question. Religion affects them. Does something affecting something else imply its responsibility for something else? I think it depends on the context and on the degree of affect.

TTKDB

@MayCaesar:

Where is the scientific evidence to support this statement? 

"Religion affects the individual, individual's traits affect how the individual interprets religion.

For someone inclined for violence, for example, a specific interpretation of religion can become an excuse to unleash their nature on everyone. On the other hand, that same person can be saved from his violent traits by a different interpretation of religion."

Religion can direct an individual to commit assualt and battery? 

Religion can direct an individual to commit a hit and run incident?  

Religion can direct an individual to commit a carjacking incident? 

Religion can direct an individual to commit a robbery? 

Religion can direct an individual to engage in a domestic abuse incidents? 

Religion can direct an individual to commit crimes involving the illegal uses of a firearm? 

"Bottom line is: it is complicated. Religion can affect the individual positively or negatively. Whether the religion is responsible for the actions of that individual afterwards is more of a rhetorical question. Religion affects them. Does something affecting something else imply its responsibility for something else? I think it depends on the context and on the degree of affect."

I believe that individuals go about complicating their own lives, and I believe as well that the individuals committing crimes, are solely responsible for their own individual actions and religion has nothing to do with the offenders illegal actions.

TTKDB

Google: FBI.org and see if there is a section mentioning religious based crimes? 

TTKDB

@MayCaesar

Google, FBI.org and see if there is a section mentioning religious based crimes? 

TTKDB

@MayCaesar

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-21

I've looked at the information, and from as far as I can tell, there isn't a section mentioning religious based crimes, along with the other incidences that are mentioned. 

TTKDB

Reiterating:

There is no evidence to support the stance by some that Religion is the reason why some commit crimes.

So the stance by some that Religion is the reason why some commit crimes have no credible grounds for their claims or statement's. 

MayCaesar

Every experience or belief in every individual's life has potential to increase or decrease the probability of them committing crime. Religion is no exception. While I do not think religion is solely responsible for most crimes committed on religious grounds, it would be extremely dishonest to suggest that all the crimes that are currently committed, would still be committed in the absence of religion.

Without religion, crusades or Arabic conquests would look differently. Without religion, such organizations as ISIS or KKK would not exist (or, at least, they would function very differently). Without religion, the Boston terrorist attack of 2013 would not have happened.

I doubt there has been a single major ideology in human history that has not inspired anyone to commit an act of violence.

TTKDB

@MayCaesar: 

Did you look at the FBI.org website?

Table 21 A?

Religion is an exception, because it's not on that webpage along with the other crimes that thousand upon thousands of offenders have committed.

If people take Religion and manipulate or corrupt it for their own individaul gains, then that (individaul or groups of individauls) are solely responsible for their corruption and or  manipulation of religion.

Did you see religion mentioned?

I've reread over that table a dozen plus times, and religion is not mentioned.

So your view of religion being a reason behind modern day crime is unfounded. 

Do you know of one legal court case where religion and the offender or offenders were found guilty of a crime along with the offender or offenders? 

I've looked for that information, and so far no such legal court case exists.

So in that instance, linking religion to a crime and finding religion guilty of a crime along with an offender does not exist.

And in that stance as well, is found to be unfounded. 

The evidence not linking religion to the crimes that the offenders have committed, clearly speaks for itself. 

MayCaesar

Crimes are legally classified based on what actions they involve and what consequences they have, not based on what beliefs led the person to a crime. It does not seem like you are interested in getting to the bottom of your own question, otherwise you would have known it by now.

TTKDB

@MayCaesar:

"It does not seem like you are interested in getting to the bottom of your own question, otherwise you would have known it by now.

I know the answer:

Again,  Did you look at the FBI.org website?

Table 21 A?

Religion is an exception, because it's not on that webpage along with the other crimes that thousand upon thousands of offenders have committed.

If people take Religion and manipulate or corrupt it for their own individaul gains, then that (individaul or groups of individauls) are solely responsible for their corruption and or  manipulation of religion.

Did you see religion mentioned?

I've reread over that table a dozen plus times, and religion is not mentioned.

So your view of religion being a reason behind modern day crime is unfounded. 

Do you know of one legal court case where religion and the offender or offenders were found guilty of a crime along with the offender or offenders? 

I've looked for that information, and so far no such legal court case exists.

So in that instance, linking religion to a crime and finding religion guilty of a crime along with an offender does not exist.

And in that stance as well, is found to be unfounded. 

The evidence not linking religion to the crimes that the offenders have committed, clearly speaks for itself.  

MayCaeser: Can you please answer the question?

Did you go to the fbi.org webpage and read the information? 

Or did you balk at the information, and you're sticking to your stance? 

TTKDB

@MayCaesar

What (Law enforcement) websites provided how crimes are classified based on what actions they involve and what consequences based upon your statement below? 

"Crimes are legally classified based on what actions they involve and what consequences they have"

Can you please provide those specific websites? 

MayCaesar

@TTKDB ;

Look at the FBI list. Take any crime from there. Let us take Arson as an example. The definition of Arson from the Common Law is:
"At Common Law, the malicious burning or exploding of the dwelling house of another, or the burning of a building within the curtilage, the immediate surrounding space, of the dwelling of another."
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/arson 

In simplified terms, arson is setting a building on fire. The act of setting a building on fire is what is called arson: the action (setting it on fire) and the consequence (the building suffering damage due to fire. What led to this arson does not matter as far as the legal definition goes.

An arson can happen for any reason. Maybe someone was just bored and decided to have some fun. Maybe the person was drunk and could not control their actions. Maybe the person was a fundamentalist Christian and set a synagogue on fire because he believed his god prescribed him to do so. It will still be called "arson", regardless of whether religion or any other ideology is responsible for it or not.

As for your notion that religion has never been found legally responsible for anything - I addressed it in another thread: religion is not an entity that can be put on trial or held accountable by the modern system of justice. Only individuals can.

I am not sure what here can be confusing.

TTKDB

@MayCaesar:

"An arson can happen for any reason. Maybe someone was just bored and decided to have some fun. Maybe the person was drunk and could not control their actions. Maybe the person was a fundamentalist Christian and set a synagogue on fire because he believed his god prescribed him to do so. It will still be called "arson", regardless of whether religion or any other ideology is responsible for it or not."

The above is your opinion. 

"Maybe the person was a fundamentalist Christian and set a synagogue on fire because he believed his god prescribed him to do so."

Can show me one legal case that can cooberate your opinion?

For example: John Smith verses the state of California for the crime of arson.

And some TV station news media coverage that stated that your (fictional person was a fundamentalist Christian) and set a synagogue on fire because he believed his god prescribed him to do so.

And that same news media coverage stating that your fictionak person had a mental evaluation because his God prescribed him to do so? 

Can you cooberate any of the above with real life facts? 

"I am not sure what here can be confusing."

In the light of your question, (did God destroy the twin towers?)

Because there is real life evidence as to who destroyed the twin towers.

So why can't you provide real life evidence to support your statements from you instead of your opinion in how you view things? 

Zombieguy1987

How many times do I need to use this link to prove that religion is responsible?
https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=awreer6lzsdbv2saqckpxqt.;_ylu=x3odmtb0n2noc21lbgnvbg8dymyxbhbvcwmxbhz0awqdbhnlywnwaxzz?p=victims+of+religion&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-arh-001&hspart=arh&hsimp=yhs-001&vm=r

Dee

@TTKDB

The guy is a troll he gets off on it  , ’ve reported him several times and his various debates.

His tactic is to ask several questions yet never answer any himself , ask him why he’s a Christian and he flees. Report or ignore the troll

Joeseph

@Dee

Glad to see someone else is reporting him as he’s obviously just trolling 

TTKDB

@Joeseph:

How am I trolling?

I created this forum, so how can I be trolling on myself?

TTKDB

@Dee

Is this really Wowsil? 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Wonder why you’ve had several debates withdrawn ..... for trolling that’s why 

TTKDB

@Joeseph

Can you please read and address the questions in regards this forum?  

TTKDB

@Joeseph

Can you please address the below? 

So Religion in general is apparently more responsible
for how some mistreat society as a whole? 

Is that how some apparently view religion? 

It's religions fault for what some individuals do, rather then it being the individuals fault instead? 
(The various crimes that some commit year after year, and for decades?)

If some view religion in that manner, then where is the cooberative evidence to support the stance that religion is maybe more responsible for how some mistreat society as a whole, than the individual does?  

TTKDB

@Dee

Can you please address the below? 

So Religion in general is apparently more responsible
in for how some mistreat society as a whole? 

Is that how some apparently view religion? 

It's religions fault for what some individuals do, rather then it being the individuals fault instead? 
(The various crimes that some commit year after year, and for decades?)

If some view religion in that manner, then where is the cooberative evidence to support the stance that religion is maybe more responsible for how some mistreat society as a whole, than the individual does?  

TTKDB

@Zombieguy1987

Can you please address the below? 

So Religion in general is apparently more responsible
in for how some mistreat society as a whole? 

Is that how some apparently view religion? 

It's religions fault for what some individuals do, rather then it being the individuals fault instead? 
(The various crimes that some commit year after year, and for decades?)

If some view religion in that manner, then where is the cooberative evidence to support the stance that religion is maybe more responsible for how some mistreat society as a whole, than the individual does?  

Joeseph

@TTKDB

I’m not interested in your forum it’s uninteresting 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Sill not interested in this totally boring topic .....have fun trolling 

TTKDB

@Joeseph

There's no proof that links religion as being a reason for why some individauls commit their crimes.

I even shared a webpage from from fbi.org

Table 21 A 

And no where on that webpage is religion mentioned as reason for why some have committed their crimes? 

Do you find that fact an uninteresting as well? 

So do you maybe view the truth as uninteresting?

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Boring , you finished trolling yet?

TTKDB

@Joeseph

But the parents who hurt their kids and are in jail, for their crimes, but religion had nothing with their crimes.

You find that interesting though right? 

The parents who hurt their kids and were religious, thats interesting to you?

And grouping those offending parents, you like to group them up with the religious parents who are innocent and haven't committed any crimes against their kids?

You find that interesting as well right? 

There are millions of religious individuals and parents who haven't committed any crimes against anyone, and you find this fact boring? 

Did you find the FBI.org webpage as boring to?

Did you even read the webpage? 

The above is what you call trolling? 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

You need to get out more man , you’re boring as hell 

MayCaesar

@TTKDB ;

It is not "my opinion", it is how our legal system works. It does not produce judgments because someone followed their religion, it produces judgments because someone committed an unlawful act, regardless of what beliefs led them there. You will never find "religion" in any crime list, because being religious is not a crime. Committing arson is, and you can commit arson both for religious reasons or not - arson is arson.

I do not know if someone has ever actually committed arson in the name of religion, although I would be surprised if the answer was "no". All I am saying is that if someone commits arson for religious reasons, it will still be called "arson" and not "religion".

I cannot make it any clearer than this.

TTKDB

@Joeseph

However you feel, engaging in the forum is why it was created.

If you can't or refuse to engage productively with the forum, then you're unnecessarily wasting this forums time. 

So I wish you a good day.

And look I look forward to having a productive dialogue with those who are open minded in regards to this forum. 

TTKDB

@MayCaesar:

I respectfully disagree with you.

I watch the news each day.

And because of the anti religious, I've learned to watch for any  individauls being mentioned in the news for committing crimes based on religious orientation and non religious orientation.

But for some curious reason it seems to be irrelevant if an offender is religious or non religious while various individual's across the country commit their common place crimes on a daily, weekly, monthly, or yearly basis? 

But an individual can come to the internet and be educated and see how some verbally link an offender to a religion, to apparently make their points of view with? 

Maybe that's a difference between how the news media presents its newscasts and how statistics are compiled and provided to the public via a website and webpage, verses how some present their views via their statements? 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Well yippee for you enjoy your trolling 

MayCaesar

@TTKDB ;

Indeed, it is irrelevant as far as the crime classification goes whether the offender is religious or not. 

However, religion is a pretty large part of the individual's world view. It obviously shapes what they believe in and, as a result, how they act. Sometimes one's religion can prevent them from committing crimes they would otherwise commit. Other times, it gets them to commit crimes they would otherwise not commit.

That was my initial argument: religion is connected to one's behavior. It can have both positive and negative effects on it, depending on the individual, on the religion, on the interpretation of the religion and many other factors.

Nick Vujicic and Joan of Arc are examples of people's greatness as a consequence of being religious. Ivan the Terrible and Bin Laden are examples of people's wickedness as a consequence of being religious. Both extremes happen, as well as many shades in between.

Now, you could say that the ones using religion to justify their crimes misinterpret their religion. Perhaps; and that would be a topic for another discussion entirely. However, religion by its very design is prone to a variety of interpretations. If you want to take it out of the equation and, along with how the system of justice works, hold the individual as the core source of the crime - then you have to do the same with the positive outcomes of following religion, in order to be consistent. Namely, if Bin Laden's behavior cannot be connected to Islam, then Nick Vujicic's behavior cannot be connected to Christianity.
Such a position strikes me as somewhat forced, but, nonetheless, it is, at least, self-consistent. It nonetheless misses the fact that everything in this world is interdependent, and such a global system of beliefs as religion followed by hundreds millions people has to have both significant positive and negative impacts on the world, including the extremes leading to crime.

WordsMatter

@TTKDB can you ascribe any positive actions individuals have done in society to religion?

TTKDB

@WordsMatter:

"can you ascribe any positive actions individuals have done in society to religion?"

Sure religious parents and kids who go to church or talk about religion at home and aren't causing any harm to anyone.

Religious scientist's, religious police officers, religious firefighters, some religious doctors in general, along with religious nurses. 

Some coaches in various sports programs.

Religious individauls who volunteer to help the homeless in homeless shelters. 

Or help to feed the homeless. 

Religious crisis, grief, or school counselor's.

Religious veterans who have served in the United States military. 

TTKDB

@Joeseph:

Same response

However you feel, engaging in the forum is why it was created.

If you can't or refuse to engage productively with the forum, then you're unnecessarily wasting this forums time. 

I look forward to having a productive dialogue with those who are open minded in regards to this forum.  

So what version of (pro society open minded are you?) 

Anti religious open minded? 

Or overall pro society open minded? 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

I actually think you’re insane as you make no sense at all

TTKDB

@Joeseph

"I actually think you’re insane as you make no sense at all"

So what version of (pro society open minded are you?) 

Anti religious open minded? 

Or overall pro society open minded?

How do the above questions make no sense? 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Yep , that statement has just confirmed your insanity 

TTKDB

@Joeseph:

So you don't know if you're:
 
Anti religious open minded? 

Or overall pro society open minded?

WordsMatter

@TTKDB but you see that has nothing to do with religion because the actions of doctors and firefighters are carried out on a personal level. I think I get it now. Religion isn't responsible for anything good or bad.

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Why have you never attempted to answer @Zombieguy1987 when he stated ?......

How many times do I need to use this link to prove that religion is responsible?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=awreer6lzsdbv2saqckpxqt.;_ylu=x3odmtb0n2noc21lbgnvbg8dymyxbhbvcwmxbhz0awqdbhnlywnwaxzz?p=victims+of+religion&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-arh-001&hspart=arh&hsimp=yhs-001&vm=r

You say ..........

So I  don't know why I'm
 
Anti Atheist and close minded?

My reply .....That's because you're an indoctrinated sheep

You say .......Im overall anti society and close minded?

My reply ......You're stating the obvious now

TTKDB

@Joeseph

So you went back to the indoctrinated sheeple line?

You're not pro society minded. 

And those kids who were hurt by their parents?

Was Religion found guilty along with the parents for their crimes?

No it wasn't.

According to the FBI.org page

Religion isn't on the page along with the crimes that the offenders committed. 

TTKDB

I'm pro society minded.

Referring to pictures from Yahoo to make an anti religious point of view isn't pro society.

That's poking the religious parents who haven't harmed their kids with an unfounded meanness. 

How do you go about judging innocent people who haven't hurt their kids along with the parents who did? 

How does that logic make sense in a court of law? 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Why have you never attempted to answer @Zombieguy1987 when he stated ?......

How many times do I need to use this link to prove that religion is responsible?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=awreer6lzsdbv2saqckpxqt.;_ylu=x3odmtb0n2noc21lbgnvbg8dymyxbhbvcwmxbhz0awqdbhnlywnwaxzz?p=victims+of+religion&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-arh-001&hspart=arh&hsimp=yhs-001&vm=r

You say ..........

So I  don't know why I'm
 
Anti Atheist and close minded?

My reply .....That's because you're an indoctrinated sheep

You say .......Im overall anti society and close minded?

My reply ......You're stating the obvious now 

   

TTKDB

@Joeseph

Same questions here:

Reality check:

Who was responsible for 9/11?

Was God responsible for destroying the twin towers? 

Or were 19 hijackers responsible for 9/11?  

TTKDB

And my previous responses got deleted huh? 

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Why have you never attempted to answer @Zombieguy1987 when he stated ?......

How many times do I need to use this link to prove that religion is responsible?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=awreer6lzsdbv2saqckpxqt.;_ylu=x3odmtb0n2noc21lbgnvbg8dymyxbhbvcwmxbhz0awqdbhnlywnwaxzz?p=victims+of+religion&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-arh-001&hspart=arh&hsimp=yhs-001&vm=r

You say ..........

So I  don't know why I'm
 
Anti Atheist and close minded?

My reply .....That's because you're an indoctrinated sheep

You say .......Im overall anti society and close minded?

My reply ......You're stating the obvious now 

   

Joeseph

@TTKDB

Why have you never attempted to answer @Zombieguy1987 when he stated ?......

How many times do I need to use this link to prove that religion is responsible?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=awreer6lzsdbv2saqckpxqt.;_ylu=x3odmtb0n2noc21lbgnvbg8dymyxbhbvcwmxbhz0awqdbhnlywnwaxzz?p=victims+of+religion&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-arh-001&hspart=arh&hsimp=yhs-001&vm=r

You say ..........

So I  don't know why I'm
 
Anti Atheist and close minded?

My reply .....That's because you're an indoctrinated sheep

You say .......Im overall anti society and close minded?

My reply ......You're stating the obvious now