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#AllLivesMatter vs. #BlackLivesMatter?
in Politics

By YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 195 Pts edited December 1
It is racist to elevate skin color like a religion when we are all one human race. #AllLivesMatter
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  • Yes, all lives matter equally. But the AllLivesMatter movement as a whole has dismissed problems faced by African-Americans, which is unfair.
    Zombieguy1987piloteerGeorge_HorseMcSlothNathaniel_B
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    Society matters.

    When crimes are committed via one citizen against another.

    Then the offender regardless of any race is placing themselves above society, above family, and against being (humane, respectful, self respectful towards others and themselves.

    And it's a societal shame that society is treated as it is, year in and year out via the millions of crimes committed against it year after year.

    It's sad that in a sense, that basically society as a whole, doesn't get much of a voice, but that various individuals and various individual groups do?

    And its unfair when the various crimes commit by the various offenders are changing the courses of an individuals life, or the lives of the millions of families lives across the country forever. 

    Hit and runs, robberies, abductions, carjackings, domestic violence and abuse, gun violence, assualt and battery, and bullying and so on? 
    Zombieguy1987
  • @Polaris95 Black lives matter is a leftist race baiting movement. It is racist and wrong to judge by skin color, when we are all one human race. Stop playing the race card.
    Zombieguy1987piloteerJackNewtonNathaniel_B
  • @TTKDB I so agree. I support racial unity which means we are all one human race. I don't understand judging by skin color. I am not saying you are, but some people do judge by skin color. My father was racist, and I used to be, until I had a crush on that drill sergent.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @YeshuaBought yet here you are trying to stoke a debate that revolves around race
    Zombieguy1987piloteerYeshuaBoughtPolaris95
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    What are your thoughts on my points of view? 
  • @TTKDB lacks any sort of depth.

    All I read is "crime = bad. Crime affects people"
    Zombieguy1987
  • piloteerpiloteer 105 Pts
    edited November 19
    The goal of the #BlackLivesMatter movement is a call to action and response against the state-sanctioned violence against black people, as well as the virulent anti-black racism that permeates our society today! If you're for state-sanctioned violence or racism, you're against black people! If you can't recognize their struggle to be free, YOU can't be free!
  • @WordsMatter The fact remains that all lives matter and it is racist to judge by skin color.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @WordsMatter The fact remains that all lives matter and it is racist to judge by skin color.
    Black Lives Matters is the only movement that supports the idea that all lives matter and that it is racist to judge by skin colour.

    Let me give you an analogy

    Situation 1)

    The Rohingya people are being ethnically cleansed by the government of Myanmar. Someone creates an anti-ethnic cleansing group called "Justice for Myanmar" aimed at stopping the ethnic cleansing.

    Which of these views is reasonable:

    a) "I hate discrimination and needless death, this Justice for Myanmar movement is good and based on the fundamental principle that all people are deserving of respect and life"

    b) "How dare you try and start a Justice for Myanmar movement. Everyone deserves justice and protection from ethnic cleansing so it's racist to try and focus on the ethnic cleansing of the Rohingya. What about middle-class Americans? don't we deserve equal protection from ethnic cleansing? How dare you denigrate us by giving us less focus even though we are under no actual threat of ethnic cleansing!"

    It's view a. Black Lives Matters is founded on the basis that all people are deserving of equality and Black people are being discriminated against and hence are unequal. It's not that all lives don't matter, it's that there's no realistic point to focusing on people who aren't being discriminated against except to try and draw attention away from actual victims and continue the discrimination/
    piloteerMcSloth
  • @Ampersand No it isn't. That movement is racist just like #WhiteLivesMatter for judging by skin color.
    piloteer
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    "lacks any sort of depth.

    All I read is "crime = bad. Crime affects people"

    Crime is bad when regardless of race people kill innocent people
     
    How is talking about people who hurt or killed innocent people expressing a lack of depth? 
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 223 Pts
    edited November 19
    @TTKDB because that's already a given. A kindergartener could tell you that. It does nothing to try and address any issues anywhere.

    Black lives matter uses race because police brutality is a serious issue that the whole group at large feels is important enough to fight for. Yes every race is subject to police brutality not no racial, cultural, economic, or religious groups have ever felt they should take action on it, probably because it wasn't a common enough occurrence within those groups. You can pull statistics that show all races suffer from police brutality but that doesn't lessen blm message or goals. Many Christians are fighting for religious liberties in this country, they feel it's a common enough occurrence that their religious rights are violated to band together and take action. They don't go searching for cases where Hindus, Muslims, or Jews have their religious rights violated and why should they? It doesn't change what they are fighting for or why.

    Blm has brought tangible positive reform to the system. Thanks to that movement you now have more and more cops wearing body cams across the country, not just when they interact with black people. This holds police more accountable for their actions when interacting with people of any race. Yes that change was driven by a racial group, but they fought for something that helps all races. That's why all lives matter is inferior, that "group" doesn't actually fight for any changes, it just aknowledges that all lives are important, presumably in the context of interacting with police, without offering any types of reform to try and better the system.

    That's great that you think crime is bad and hurts innocent people, now what can you DO to lessen crime? I don't care how you approach that in your life, you can champion for any group you are a part of as long as you actually DO something.
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    Police brutality?

    What about the other side of the (crime coin?)

    Like race on race, and non race on race crimes/ violence that are totally void of any police interaction? 


  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 223 Pts
    edited November 19
    @TTKDB black lives matter was started to address police brutality. There are other groups that focus on that other side of the coin. If you try to raise money for breast cancer is it a legitimate criticism that lowers the value of what you are trying to accomplish by asking why you aren't raising money for other types of cancer? Is it wrong for a man to lead a campaign on fighting breast cancer because he is statistically more likely to get prostate cancer? If I spend my time working in a campaign that is trying to combat meth addiction does that inherently mean that I don't think other types of addictions are also problems?

    I see you concede that your original post lacked any substance.
  • @Ampersand No it isn't. That movement is racist just like #WhiteLivesMatter for judging by skin color.
    They're not judging by skin colour though, they're a movement that is specifically trying to end judgement based on skin colour. If your argument doesn't go any further then "It has a skin colour in the name!!!!" then you have no argument and might as well concede.
  • I would like organizations and movements to have less pretentious names. "All lives matter"? I can point at a random person from a random country you have never met, and his/her life will be of zero significance to you. If they die, you will not even know it happened, and you will not even be aware they have ever existed. And if I tell you that they existed and died, you will say, at most, "Eh, okay... Who was that about again?"

    So please spare me this pretentious compassion. The reasons we advocate for human rights is because we know: guaranteeing everyone's rights guarantees our rights. If human rights, on the other hand, are not guaranteed for every single person, and groups of people can arbitrarily be an exempt from it - then tomorrow we might become a member of one of such groups. There is nothing more to it than selfish desire to live in a free society, and there is nothing wrong with it either.

    "Black Lives Matter" should really be called "No to Police Brutality", and "All Lives Matter" should be called "I Support the Police". Because this in essence is what these movements are about.
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter;

    Society matters,

    families matter,

    Nationwide roadway safety matters, but if an alcoholic is maybe prone to driving while drunk, or a weed user is also prone to driving while high on weed, it would appear that those two types of drivers may just balk at the laws making their choices illegal, and entitle themselves to break the law placing their drunk driving and drugged driving choices above the roadway safety of others? 

    And when individuals regardless of race go about committing robberies, domestic violence and abuse, assualt and battery, race on race, and non race on race shootings, and the police aren't a part of those crimes, who might those offenders blame their crimes on?

    Does BLM address maybe address those above mentioned issues? 
  • @TTKDB I don't understand why you think blm has to address every single crime ever committed anywhere in our society. The organization was formed to cut down on the illegal actions of police officers and that organization has lowered your chances of being a victim of police brutality. If you hold any group that tries to fight crime of a specific kind to the same standard you would have significantly less people working to better society.
    YeshuaBought
  • @WordsMatter Strawman fallacy. That is not what he said.
    McSloth
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter:

    When an offender regardless of any race refrains from committing any of the million plus crimes tthat get committed in the United States, year after year, you know what likely happens? 

    There's no need to have a police officer in any county or city in this country from having to address an offender breaking a law and then requiring a police officer to have to be called to show up and address the offenders illegal actions? 

    Then guess what else happens?

    This or that "blank lives matters" group or organization doesn't have to be created to address police brutality, or the offenders brutality against their various victims? 

    Imagine that? 

    This way society gets to be left alone, and society gets to be as it's supposed to be? 

    Or might that notion be more than some are willing to live with? 

    In the given day and age that we are apparently living through, the rest of society is putting up and living with, while some of the laws are and have been changed to suit or accomate some regardless of how the rest of society may feel about it? 

    Think about that?

    The thousands of shootings that occur in the various cities across the country, the race on race, and non race on race based, don't get to occur because the millions of citizens in the country are appreciating each other and showing self respect, and respect towards themselves and others? 

    Imagine that, a non need for "BLM or ALM" to have to exist at all? 







  • @TTKDB holy hell I'm not even going to finish reading that post. The shear amount of mental gymnastics you are trying to do to have any semblence of an argument is astounding. A society without crime is impossible so your entire post falls apart there.

    I see convincing you of anything is impossible but thank you for engaging with my as others looking on can see how weak your arguments are in comparison to mine and I have a better chance of convincing them.
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter:

    "holy hell I'm not even going to finish reading that post. The shear amount of mental gymnastics you are trying to do to have any semblence of an argument is astounding. A society without crime is impossible so your entire post falls apart there."

    "Mental gymnastics?"

    Society every single day, deals with crime being pushed in it's face day in and day out, and it's sickinly sad.

    The numbers of how many offenders took the lives of how many people this year already alone? 

    How many of those families that won't get to experience the upcoming holidays with their lost loved ones?

    (How might you view these two specific questions, maybe as fair or unfair?

    Are you a maybe a BLM supporter?

    Or are you maybe a society supporter?)

    Why can't an offender refrain from committing any crime, thus needing a police officer or officer's being required to address the offenders actions? 

    Why is it maybe/ apparently difficult for any offender to not commit a crime?

    Commit a hit and run, and then run from the scene? 

    Or go home, and mistreat their spouse/ girlfriend or boyfriend, via domestic abuse or violence? 

    It maybe doesn't make you wonder about how many of the kids who are maybe growing up with those domestic abuse or violence going on around them at the same time? 

    The curious use of your term, "mental gymnastics?"

    The various local news media outlets across the country, talk about those various crimes on a yearly basis, I'm guessing in a sense to inform and educate the public on how some of the citizens regardless of race are treating the others around them? 

    Might you view the news coverage of those crimes being mentioned to the viewing public as a form of "mental gymnastics" to them? 

    "I see convincing you of anything is impossible but thank you for engaging with my as others looking on can see how weak your arguments are in comparison to mine and I have a better chance of convincing them."

    What is it that you were trying to convince me of? 








  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter:

    "as others looking on can see how weak your arguments are in comparison to mine and I have a better chance of convincing them."

    Are you maybe trying to speak for how the others might view your arguments? 

    Or did you maybe interview any of the others, prior to you making your above statement, to see how they maybe view your arguments? 


  • @TTKDB you started out saying crime hurts society and now you've gotten so the way to the point of dismissing all my points with a pretend world where crime doesn't exist.
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    "you started out saying crime hurts society and now you've gotten so the way to the point of dismissing all my points with a pretend world where crime doesn't exist."

    Can you please address these questions?

    (How might you view these two specific questions, maybe as fair or unfair?

    Are you a maybe a BLM supporter?

    Or are you maybe a society supporter?) 

    And crime exists because regardless of race, the offenders keep committing their crimes regardless of who they are hurting, year after year.

    What are your thoughts on prison reform? 

    Why can't some just treat themselves without an offenders mindset, and enjoy society like the rest of the public does? 

    How many people get to live in a world, where their loved ones are gone because an individual offender wrongfully took their lives? 

    What's a more fair version of society? 

    A world where the various offenders committ their crimes, regardless of how they change a families life forever? 

    Do you maybe view the above version of the world as fair? 

    Or do you maybe view a world without crime as being fair? 

    Crime does hurt society;

    There was a shooting in a Chicago hospital this evening, 4 people lost their lives.
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    "Blm has brought tangible positive reform to the system. Thanks to that movement you now have more and more cops wearing body cams across the country, not just when they interact with black people. This holds police more accountable for their actions when interacting with people of any race."

    An example of a pretend world;

    Where hypothetically speaking, everyone above the age of 18 wore a bodycam, this way everyone could be held accountable for their individual actions?

    But my guess is this, that many of the citizens would balk at that hypothetical idea, and would protest the idea with their "individual privacy arguments" wouldn't they?

    Here's the hypothetical clincher, and why might some of the citizens in the country want to (protest the civilian bodycams, with their privacy arguments) and  hold themselves to the same accountability actions just as the police officers do? 

    The above I believe might be viewed as a fair example of a pretend world?

    Verses a world, where the police wear their bodycams only and are held accountable for their actions, while the rest of society gets to living with, and put up with the various offenders who commit their crimes and maybe have a different version of what "accountability for their actions" means to the offender? 


  • @TTKDB ;

    We do not pay our money to fund people's crimes. We do pay our money to fund the law enforcement agencies, and we expect to get a return from our payment. When I pay a few hundred dollars a month worth in taxes, I expect my employees to do the work I pay them for - and to make all the preparations necessary to be able to monitor their work. Them wearing bodycams in the 21st century should be the bare minimum in terms of monitoring I perform on them.

    When you start paying ME hundreds dollars a month to do a job I voluntarily applied for, then you get to set the terms and put all the bodycams you want on me. But as of now, I have not signed any job contracts with you, hence you trying to put a bodycam on me would be a violation of my rights.

    That is not to say that "BLM" has done anything of substance, other than cultivate martyrdom and victim complex among many black people. If anything, it antagonized the police and made it much harder for the officers to do their job due to the amount of hotheads around who see all police officer as the worst people on Earth.

    However, your argument misses the very essence of what a public employee is. A public employee is my and your employee, and unless you are okay with throwing your money away and getting nothing in return, you should expect higher standards from those you invest in, than from random people on the street.
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 223 Pts
    edited November 20
    MayCaesar said:

    That is not to say that "BLM" has done anything of substance, other than cultivate martyrdom and victim complex among many black people. If anything, it antagonized the police and made it much harder for the officers to do their job due to the amount of hotheads around who see all police officer as the worst people on Earth.

    You're right and wrong here. It certainly antagonized the police and made it harder to do their jobs with some people, both black and of other races. However that is precisely what got the push for bodycams going. It was the response from the police to protect themselves from the claims of police brutality that they, and many others, saw as a victim complex, or an orchestrated hit to dirty the name of police.

    Malcolm X was a morally wrong person. He believed in achieving civil rights through any force necessary. He preached that the only way to get real rights was to fight for it in that current moment. He went so far as to say that black people needed to create their own nation state to truly get freedom.

    He was instrumental in securing civil rights in America. He made MLK look like a moderate in those times. Those in power were more willing to work with MLK and pass civil rights. It was better to, what they would see as giving up, those tiny concessions to prevent anymore support going to the black Panthers or Muslim brotherhood.

    Blm is playing the role of Malcolm X. They are seen as extreme to many people, so to try and show just how far out there they are, Police departments across the country are taking steps to be more transparent to hold public support on their side and minimize support for movements like blm, and hostility towards police in general.

    Is blm a morally right or just organization? No. Are they necessarily telling the truth all the time? No. Do they take the best approach to making cooperative changes? No. But you said it yourself, it's ridiculous that our police have so little oversight by us, their employees, and bodycams should be the bare minimum. The presence of blm has brought that for all of us when previously the groups that pushed for such things were unsuccessful and were the previous extreme on the barometer. Blm set a new standard for the extreme so everyone else moved a little closer to the center and reasonable.
  • @Ampersand Saying black lives matter IS judging by skin color. It is racist and wrong.
    Zombieguy1987
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    I'm sorry, I asked you these questions before, and you're still non verbally walking around them? 

    So I'll pose them to you again;

    How might you view these two specific questions, maybe as fair or unfair?

    Are you a maybe a BLM supporter?

    Or are you maybe a society supporter? 
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @MayCaesar:

    So if you were asked to wear a bodycam, (and this way your actions hold you personally accountable for what do), are you saying that you would maybe balk at the idea, hypothetically speaking? 

    If the police wear them, wouldn't the wearing of a bodycam pretty much have a citizen in a sense  maintaining the same standards? 

    Keeping the peace, and being respectful towards others, yourself, and society itself? 








  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    Same questions;

    If you were asked to wear a bodycam, (and this way your actions hold you personally accountable for what do), would you maybe balk at the idea, hpothetically speaking? 

    If the police wear them, wouldn't the wearing of a bodycam pretty much have a citizen in a sense  maintaining the same standards? 

    Keeping the peace, and being respectful towards others, yourself, and society itself?  
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 223 Pts
    edited November 20
    @TTKDB depends what job im doing and how much I'm getting paid for it. I support neither society nor blm.
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter;

    @MayCaesar;

    If I was asked to wear a bodycam, I'd volunteer for it. 

    Because in the current day and age, there is a bodycam of sorts that already exists.

    It's called the cellphone, but the glaring problem with some who have used their cellphones to record police interactions with some of the offenders, is that the cellphone being used by some only records half of the incidents that sometimes involve an offender and a police officer.

    And it's sad when an individual goes about committing a crime, and the individuals who witness what the offender was doing failed to record the offender committing a crime?

    But when the police are called to investigate the offender, then an individual who was present before the police showed up, and started to investigate the offender after a crime or an incident was committed, then that individual starts to record the offender and the police interaction, and the individuals cellphone footage, gets some apparent credibility for not telling the whole story, but only half of the story involving an offender and a police interaction? 

    But if most of society were to wear an actual bodycam, I wonder how many of the crimes across the board could maybe be cut in half, or maybe even down to a third of any given crime, regardless of  race? 

    And if most of society were to wear a bodycam, do you know what that equates to, equal and fair accountability. 

    Because if an individual goes about committing a crime, they incriminate themselves on the spot, and they don't have any excuses to cover up their offense with? 

    And if there are others with thrth bodycams who saw an offender committing a crimes, the others with their witnessing bodycams only incriminate the offender even more? 

    A simple bodycam verses the cellphone in telling the whole story, Instead of half of the story. 
  • @TTKDB move to China, enjoy your 1984 world with no privacy ever
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter:

    "move to China, enjoy your 1984 world with no privacy ever'

    Are you maybe pro offender then? 

    Why should society have to live with the various crimes committed against millions of innocent people? 

    Against the youth, the elderly, the parents, and families in general? 

    Whats wrong, wearing a bodycam would place an offender on the same equal and fair grounds along with the rest of society? 

    So what side of the aisle are on?

    Are you on the side for a fair and equal society?

    Or on the side of the crime committing offender? 


  • @TTKDB I'm on the side of the right to privacy. I take it you support the Patriot act then?
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    I'm on societies side.

    When offenders hurt people via their rights to privacy, then it looks like the offenders abused their rights to privacy doesn't it? 

    I support families being able to go home without an offender privately being abusive to their families via domestic violence or abuse. 

    I'm not discounting ones right to privacy, but when offenders commit crimes, their choices become public knowledge via the news media outlets, talking about their offenses on the local news. 




    YeshuaBought
  • @TTKDB I have no clue what your point is. First you are talking about putting body cams on everyone to preemptively catch a crime. Now you are talking about making the crime public knowledge after it's committed. Get a straight argument here.
  • @WordsMatter Liar. He never said that.
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    Do you support a society free of crime? 

    Or are you maybe a pro offender supporter?  





    YeshuaBought
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 223 Pts
    edited November 20
    @TTKDB that depends on what the laws of that society are. Up until this year in Saudi Arabia it was a crime for women to drive. With laws like that I'd rather every woman in the country be a criminal rather than have it free of that crime.

    In terms of things like murder and rape I'd prefer society to be free of those crimes.

    What I really want is a just society.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 471 Pts
    edited November 20
    @Ampersand Saying black lives matter IS judging by skin color. It is racist and wrong.
    On what basis is it wrong or racist? Do you think black lives don't matter?
    YeshuaBought
  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @Ampersand

    Society matters. 

    "On what basis is it wrong or racist? Do you think black lives don't matter?"

    If hypothetically speaking, an offender hurts an individual of the same race, does that offenders life maybe mean more than the victims life does?

    Or if hypothetically speaking an offender who is of a different race hurts an individual, does that offenders life as well, maybe mean more than the victims life does? 

    Because, shouldn't the lives that make up society as a whole, matter together overall regardless of race? 




  • TTKDBTTKDB 200 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    "that depends on what the laws of that society are."

    I'm referring to the society that makes up the United States.
  • @TTKDB well then still no I don't want this society free of all crime. I don't see the personal use or sale of drugs as something that can be justly prosecuted. I don't believe it should be a crime to sell a loose cigarette. I'm ok with people who break those laws
  • @WordsMatter Martin Luther King is the one who contributed a lot to ended institutional racism in America. Malcolm X did the opposite, he contributed to the racial tensions by separating "black people" into a separate group and advocating for that group's self-reliance. All this racial self-segregation we see nowadays, where black people tend to hang out with black people and white people tend to hang out with white people, is a result of people like Malcolm X pushing their malicious narratives. Black Lives Matter movement does the same, and it will lead to the same outcome: people living in their racial bubbles and not trusting anyone else.

    That wrong actions can lead to right outcome is something I stopped believing realistic and possible long ago.


    @TTKDB I would absolutely be willing to wear a body cam. All you need to do is to pay me the typical police officer's salary for doing it. I can sign the contract at any moment. Feel free to send the offer.

    People who I fund are subjected to different standards than people who have no relation to me. I do not care if some drug dealer operates in Detroit; I do care if my money goes towards funding others' incompetence, instead of towards funding my personal financial endeavors.
  • TTKDB said:
    @Ampersand

    Society matters. 

    "On what basis is it wrong or racist? Do you think black lives don't matter?"

    If hypothetically speaking, an offender hurts an individual of the same race, does that offenders life maybe mean more than the victims life does?

    Or if hypothetically speaking an offender who is of a different race hurts an individual, does that offenders life as well, maybe mean more than the victims life does? 

    Because, shouldn't the lives that make up society as a whole, matter together overall regardless of race? 




    Are any of your hypotheticals ones where black lives don't matter? It doesn't seem so to me and therefore whatever point you are trying to make seems irrelevant. There is nothing wrong with declaring that black lives matter unless you believe that they don't.
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