Is salvation the free gift Christians can't lose? I have evidence, this time.

MayCaesar

If being "saved" means washing away my sins, then I would rather not. I like my sins! I am greedy, selfish, reckless and bad at keeping promises. Getting rid of any of these would make my life far less enjoyable.

As I said many times, I only need salvation from my debts. Does Jesus provide that? That would be sweet, and I would readily convert into the religion that brings such a financial boon to its followers.

But if all I get are some promises of "afterlife" which, for all I know, does not even exist... well, it would be a bad investment, would it not? It would be like buying an invisible coat. Ever read The Emperor's New Clothes? Organized religion resembles that tale quite a bit.

YeshuaBought

@MayCaesar Correcy, that is very selfish.

MayCaesar

@YeshuaBought

Yes, but so is Christianity; I am simply being open about it, and I do not see selfishness as something inherently bad. Christianity is also all about serving oneself: "If you do good deeds, then you will be saved and ascend to heaven". Notice how the focus is on what the believer gets in the end - this is what justifies all the sacrifices, and not the claim that those sacrifices are good in themselves.
Giving a penny to a homeless is not a good deed in itself according to the Bible; it is simply a means to the end, which is salvation. Essentially you are buying your future with your deeds.

Now, if a religion championed doing good deeds with no promise of a reward, then it would not be selfish. But I do not think such a religion can exist: after all, if the religion gives one no benefit, then nobody will follow it, no?

YeshuaBought

@MayCaesar Christianity is a relationship with Jesus, and is not selfish. Blocked for lying.

Zombieguy1987

YeshuaBought said:

@MayCaesar Christianity is a relationship with Jesus, and is not selfish. Blocked for lying.

No wonder people ignore your debates. When people criticize Christianity, you block them

 

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 Do you have anything to contribute to my debate, or would you like to troll some more. I am not here for the drama, just to actually debate stuff. Did you review the evidence I provided?

Zombieguy1987

YeshuaBought said:

@Zombieguy1987 Do you have anything to contribute to my debate, or would you like to troll some more. I am not here for the drama, just to actually debate stuff. Did you review the evidence I provided

I'm not trolling. I'm just pointing out that your actions to people who criticize Christianity mean A. you're a hypocrite because in multiple political debates you say you support free speech, but then block @MayCaesar because he called your religion selfish... 

He has the right to do that and yet you think it's offensive!

As for the evidence?

Well, it doesn't make sense because wwwweeeeellllllll....

The idea that you are once saved sounds ridiculous 


According to the verses. All sins will be washed away...

Let's put this idea into reality.

Someone murders a group of people. But gets salvation, their sins are washed away, basically meaning that their crime is not bad according to God.

See why that's ridiculous?  

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 I don't have anyone on my blocked list, I just said that. Anywhoo, why is my Christian faith so ridiculous? May I ask you a question?

YeshuaBought

@MayCaesar I am sorry if I come off wrong, sweetheart. I just feel like people hate me for being a Christian. You are not blocked, and I am sorry. Stay awesome. 

Zombieguy1987

YeshuaBought said:

@Zombieguy1987 I don't have anyone on my blocked list, I just said that. Anywhoo, why is my Christian faith so ridiculous? May I ask you a question?

Why is your Chrisitan faith so ridiculous?

Oh, I can think of so many answers

A. The Bible is contradictory and supports many immoral ideas, like slavery, sexism, homophobia, racism, extortion etc.

B. There is no proof NONE that has proven that God exists. You're using blind faith, which is just a waste of time IMHO

C. The Ark... Yeah because people 2,000 years ago could build a giant wooden ark without cranes, power tools trucks etc AND have it hold 2 of EVERY animal and handle a worldwide flood for 40 days and nights. I'm sure most cargo ships TODAY couldn't handle that!

You're to expect anyone to think that THIS is seaworthy!? 

D. Speaking of the flood... If a flood of the size in the bible did happen. Fossils in the ground would be all over the place, and scientists would never be able to accurately match the bones of different organisms  

E. Brainwashing people to do heinous things. https://www.google.com/search?q=victims+of+religion&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=x&ved=0ahukewihu9jugorfahwkmeakhbtib00q_auidigb&biw=1920&bih=963&safe=active ;

F. Turns people into ignorant fools. https://www.google.com/search?q=john+allen+chau&safe=active&source=lnms&sa=x&ved=0ahukewir8i7u25nfahwfl-akheknbgkq_auicsga&biw=1920&bih=963&dpr=1&safe=active (I have no sympathy for his death. Survival of the fittest at it's finest! apart of evolution! Speaking of which)

G. EVOLUTION! Evolution is a fact! Proven hundreds of times since Charles Darwin came up with it in the 1850s. In fact, apart of evolution, adaptation, due to global warming, will be in full swing since future generations will need to adapt to the hotter climates. Meanwhile, there is no proof of Creationism. (I think I'm seeing a pattern here...)

H. Age of the Earth. The Bible claims that the Earth is 6,000 years old. But of all things to prove that it's false... It's tied to John Allen Chau. The tribespeople who killed him have ancestors that can be traced to the original humans 60,000 years ago!

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 ; Please allow me the time to adress every claim. I am not asking you to watch this entire video unless you want to, but please take a look through it and tell me what you think. As always, stay awesome.

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 says: H. Age of the Earth. The Bible claims that the Earth is 6,000 years old. But of all things to prove that it's false... It's tied to John Allen Chau. The tribespeople who killed him have ancestors that can be traced to the original humans 60,000 years ago!
My response: Please show me, and one day is as a thousand years in the sight of the Lord. I am not aware of any cripture which demands my allegiance to the young earth theory. Thank you for bringing that up so other readers can see this.

Zombieguy1987

YeshuaBought said:

@Zombieguy1987 says: H. Age of the Earth. The Bible claims that the Earth is 6,000 years old. But of all things to prove that it's false... It's tied to John Allen Chau. The tribespeople who killed him have ancestors that can be traced to the original humans 60,000 years ago!
My response: Please show me, and one day is as a thousand years in the sight of the Lord. I am not aware of any cripture which demands my allegiance to the young earth theory. Thank you for bringing that up so other readers can see this.

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 ; The preceeding is my contradictory evidence proving God exists. His name is Yahweh but He also goes by Yeshua Jesus. I am really enjoying our debate, and would love to keep it going.

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 BRB on the flood, hold me to it.

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 I am trying to adress your claims.

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 ;

Zombieguy1987

YeshuaLovesYou said:

@Zombieguy1987 ;

Quoting the Bible doesn't help you at all

THat's like quoting Trump on why the wall should be built...

It's a very bad source for your argument

ethang5

@MayCaesar

-If being "saved" means washing away my sins, then I would rather not. I like my sins! 

Tell us something the Bible hasn't already told us.

Luckily for you, Jesus won't force you to let go of your sins. You can hold on to them for as long as you're alive.

ethang5

@Zombieguy1987

- A. The Bible is contradictory and supports many immoral ideas, like slavery, sexism, homophobia, racism, extortion etc.

The Bible supports none of those ideas. In fact, it condemns them.

- B. There is no proof NONE that has proven that God exists. You're using blind faith, which is just a waste of time IMHO

Your opinion does not trump reality. There is proof, but just like a racist would have to do with proof of evidence of black equality, you will have to let yourself see it.

- C. The Ark... Yeah because people 2,000 years ago could build a giant wooden ark without cranes, power tools trucks etc....

And yet 2,000 years BEFORE the Ark, they built the great stone pyramids. Hauling all those huge stones all the way to the top without cranes, power tools, or trucks.

- AND have it hold 2 of EVERY animal and handle a worldwide flood for 40 days and nights.

The Bible did not say the Ark would hold 2 of every animal, or that the flood would be worldwide.

-You're to expect anyone to think that THIS is seaworthy!?
 
No. But the Ark was. What was that?

- D. Speaking of the flood... If a flood of the size in the bible did happen. Fossils in the ground would be all over the place, and scientists would never be able to accurately match the bones of different organisms

Incorrect. Do you have any evidence that your claim here is true?

- E. Brainwashing people to do heinous things.

Subjective opinion. There was no Christianity in Stalin's atheist Russia, or Mao's atheist China, and heinous things was the order of the day.

- F. Turns people into ignorant fools.

And yet many of the world's greatest scientists were Christians. The world's greatest artworks and architecture was by Christians, and the Bible is considered one of the greatest works of literature, even by nonbelievers.

- G. EVOLUTION! Evolution is a fact!

The only people who say this online are non-scientists who only know evolution as laymen.

- Proven hundreds of times since Charles Darwin came up with it in the 1850s.

The "evolution" we have today, is nothing like what Darwin came up with. Darwin's ideas have since  been ditched.

- H. Age of the Earth. The Bible claims that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

Untrue. The Bible gives no age for the Earth. It doesn't even imply an age of the Earth.

Perhaps you aren't as familiar with Christianity or the Bible as much as you think you are?

Zombieguy1987

ethang5 said:

@Zombieguy1987

- A. The Bible is contradictory and supports many immoral ideas, like slavery, sexism, homophobia, racism, extortion etc.

The Bible supports none of those ideas. In fact, it condemns them. 

Have you actually read the Bible? Front and back?

- B. There is no proof NONE that has proven that God exists. You're using blind faith, which is just a waste of time IMHO

Your opinion does not trump reality. There is proof, but just like a racist would have to do with proof of evidence of black equality, you will have to let yourself see it.

Alright, give the proof then? Because i can't seem to find proof that he exists.

- C. The Ark... Yeah because people 2,000 years ago could build a giant wooden ark without cranes, power tools trucks etc....

And yet 2,000 years BEFORE the Ark, they built the great stone pyramids. Hauling all those huge stones all the way to the top without cranes, power tools, or trucks.

How are the pyramids relevant?

- AND have it hold 2 of EVERY animal and handle a worldwide flood for 40 days and nights.

The Bible did not say the Ark would hold 2 of every animal, or that the flood would be worldwide. Once again, have you read the bible page for page?

-You're to expect anyone to think that THIS is seaworthy!?
 
No. But the Ark was. What was that? 

Um, no. There is no way an Ark, half the size of the Titanic, could survive a flood of the size the Bible claims it is. It would be either destroyed compelety, or capsize and sink.

- D. Speaking of the flood... If a flood of the size in the bible did happen. Fossils in the ground would be all over the place, and scientists would never be able to accurately match the bones of different organisms

Incorrect. Do you have any evidence that your claim here is true?

Yeah, go look at an a dig, and tell me that it's just a concidence that the fossils match up correctly, yet if a massive flood, which would mess up the ground underneath it doesn't mess with the fossils

- E. Brainwashing people to do heinous things.

Subjective opinion. There was no Christianity in Stalin's atheist Russia, or Mao's atheist China, and heinous things was the order of the day.

mmmmmmm.... Say that to the countless people who were killed by people who died or were injuried by people brainwashed by religous people. Also you know nothing about the history of Mao and Stalin. Their genocides had nothing to do with atheism, it had to with COMMUNISM!

- F. Turns people into ignorant fools.

And yet many of the world's greatest scientists were Christians. The world's greatest artworks and architecture was by Christians, and the Bible is considered one of the greatest works of literature, even by nonbelievers.

Once again, how is the relevant?

- G. EVOLUTION! Evolution is a fact!

The only people who say this online are non-scientists who only know evolution as laymen.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... Where's your evidence

- Proven hundreds of times since Charles Darwin came up with it in the 1850s.

The "evolution" we have today, is nothing like what Darwin came up with. Darwin's ideas have since  been ditched.

- H. Age of the Earth. The Bible claims that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

Untrue. The Bible gives no age for the Earth. It doesn't even imply an age of the Earth. Just like A and C, have you read the bible front and back, page by page?

Perhaps you aren't as familiar with Christianity or the Bible as much as you think you are?

As someone who was Chrisitan for 15 of my 17 years alive, and forced to read the bible page by page and then take a small quiz by my (now also agnostic/atheist parents. who are sort of extreme) I know quite a lot

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 Yes sir or maam, it does. We are discussing a Biblical topic, so the Bible is relevant to this subect.

Zombieguy1987

YeshuaLovesYou said:

@Zombieguy1987 Yes sir or maam, it does. We are discussing a Biblical topic, so the Bible is relevant to this subect.

I said it was untrustworthy

YeshuaBought

@Zombieguy1987 I don't care. The Bible is relevant to the christian faith.

ethang5

@Zombieguy1987

>Have you actually read the Bible? Front and back?

Several times. That is why I'm asking you for more than a bald claim. Ever heard of evidence?

>Alright, give the proof then? Because i can't seem to find proof that he exists.

Then just say you can't find any, it is a lie to claim there isn't any simply because you can't find any. Illogical too.

>How are the pyramids relevant?

You brought up what people could not do in ancient times. If they could not build an Ark 2,000 years ago, how were they able to build the Pyramids 2,000 years before that? Without electricity, cranes, or trucks? 

>Once again, have you read the bible page for page?

Bibles are free. If you are correct, you should be able to post support for your claim. Can you?

>-You're to expect anyone to think that THIS is seaworthy!?

Coconuts are seaworthy. Other than your incredulity, do you have anything that supports your claim?

>There is no way an Ark.... [snip] ....could survive a flood of the size the Bible claims it is.

What size does the bible claim it is?

>It would be either destroyed compelety, or capsize and sink.

And we are to take this on faith? Any can make claims on the board. Do you have anything other than personal opinion?

>....yet if a massive flood, which would mess up the ground underneath it doesn't mess with the fossils...

You seem to be ignorant of recent scientific discoveries. First, may I ask, is there enough water on earth to account for Noah's flood?

>....people brainwashed by religous people.

People are brainwashed by atheism too. 

>Also you know nothing about the history of Mao and Stalin. Their genocides had nothing to do with atheism, it had to with COMMUNISM!

That is the line they feed the brainwashed. But the fact is, every atheist state on history has resulted in a genocidal bloodbath. Every one. Do you think that's coincidence?

>Once again, how is this relevant?

How could ignorant, brainwashed fools be the world's greatest scientists? Have conceived and built the world's greatest architectural wonders? Written the world's greatest timeless literature? How?

Perhaps you are wrong about religion turning people into ignorant fools.

>Where's your evidence

All of a sudden, you know what evidence is, or that it's needed here? When you submit evidence for the naked claims cluttering your post, I'll give some too.

>Just like A and C, have you read the bible front and back, page by page?

Sure. Can you post where the bible gives the age of the Earth? You aren't posting from knowledge, but from nonsense you've read on an atheist website. So, can you post where the bible states the age of the Earth?

>As someone who was Chrisitan for 15 of my 17 years alive, and forced to read the bible page by page and then take a small quiz by my (now also agnostic/atheist parents. who are sort of extreme) I know quite a lot.

I don't doubt that you know a lot. But you obviously aren't as familiar with Christianity or the Bible as much as you think you are.

You certainly aren't ready to be challenging real Christians on the  bible or Christian doctrine.

You're 17? Nice. Have a good day.

Zombieguy1987

ethang5 said:

@Zombieguy1987

>Have you actually read the Bible? Front and back?

Several times. That is why I'm asking you for more than a bald claim. Ever heard of evidence?

>Alright, give the proof then? Because i can't seem to find proof that he exists.

Then just say you can't find any, it is a lie to claim there isn't any simply because you can't find any. Illogical too.

>How are the pyramids relevant?

You brought up what people could not do in ancient times. If they could not build an Ark 2,000 years ago, how were they able to build the Pyramids 2,000 years before that? Without electricity, cranes, or trucks? 

>Once again, have you read the bible page for page?

Bibles are free. If you are correct, you should be able to post support for your claim. Can you?

>-You're to expect anyone to think that THIS is seaworthy!?

Coconuts are seaworthy. Other than your incredulity, do you have anything that supports your claim?

>There is no way an Ark.... [snip] ....could survive a flood of the size the Bible claims it is.

What size does the bible claim it is?

World wide flood, and there is no realistic way a ship from 2,000 years ago wouldn't be torn to shreds. Hell, some of the largest wooden ships from the 1500's couldn't survive in rough waters, so how can a giant wooden ship surivive in what is basically a world wide flood with hurricanes.

>It would be either destroyed compelety, or capsize and sink.

And we are to take this on faith? Any can make claims on the board. Do you have anything other than personal opinion?

Not personal opinion, it's a fact if a wooden ship the size of the Ark, also hold 2 of each animal, wouldn't be stable enough to survive in a world wide flood. It would be a miracle if large animals like elephants and hippos for example didn't cause it to sink due to it being unstable  

>....yet if a massive flood, which would mess up the ground underneath it doesn't mess with the fossils...

You seem to be ignorant of recent scientific discoveries. First, may I ask, is there enough water on earth to account for Noah's flood?

>....people brainwashed by religous people.

People are brainwashed by atheism too. 

But, do you have religious people knock on people's door?

Do you get advertisements about going to a local church?

Comparing the amount of brainwashing between religious people and atheism is like comparing the size of Bhutan and America. Atheist brainwashing is small, while religious brainwashing is MASSIVE 

>Also you know nothing about the history of Mao and Stalin. Their genocides had nothing to do with atheism, it had to with COMMUNISM!

That is the line they feed the brainwashed. But the fact is, every atheist state on history has resulted in a genocidal bloodbath. Every one. Do you think that's coincidence?

No... 
Stalin did the Great Purge because he was paranoid that his followers would turn on him. Not because of religion. It was because he wanted to stay in power

Mao's Great Leap Forward was bad reforms to help China that resulted in people, but nothing to with religion.

But according to your logic, I could say  But the fact is, every religious state on history has resulted in a genocidal bloodbath. Every one. Do you think that's coincidence?

Hitler (A Catholic) committed the Holocaust and WW2

Ottoman Empire (Muslim) killed 1.5 Armenians (Christians) during WW1

United States (Christian) killed tribes of Native Americans during Manifest Destiney

Empire of Japan (State Shinto) like Nazi Germany genocided people during WW2.

Do you want to go on?

>Once again, how is this relevant?

How could ignorant, brainwashed fools be the world's greatest scientists? Have conceived and built the world's greatest architectural wonders? Written the world's greatest timeless literature? How?

When I mean ignorant fools, I mean misled people who will believe everything that is said from their book (Which in turn makes them ignorant fools, because you're not suppose to believe everything that is said. That's some life advice)

Perhaps you are wrong about religion turning people into ignorant fools.

>Where's your evidence

All of a sudden, you know what evidence is, or that it's needed here? When you submit evidence for the naked claims cluttering your post, I'll give some too.

>Just like A and C, have you read the bible front and back, page by page?

Sure. Can you post where the bible gives the age of the Earth? You aren't posting from knowledge, but from nonsense you've read on an atheist website. So, can you post where the bible states the age of the Earth?

It's not nonsense when you realize the founder of Atheist Republic is a former religious person. Why don't you just stop making assumptions about things 

>As someone who was Chrisitan for 15 of my 17 years alive, and forced to read the bible page by page and then take a small quiz by my (now also agnostic/atheist parents. who are sort of extreme) I know quite a lot.

I don't doubt that you know a lot. But you obviously aren't as familiar with Christianity or the Bible as much as you think you are.

You certainly aren't ready to be challenging real Christians on the  bible or Christian doctrine.

You're 17? Nice. Have a good day.