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God is tough, but fair. Change my mind.
in Religion

AlofRIZombieguy1987anonymousdebater
  1. Live Poll

    Is God tough but fair?

    9 votes
    1. Yes.
      33.33%
    2. No.
      66.67%



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Arguments

  • Several people are in a "House of God", a guy walks in, is welcomed, and a few minutes later pulls a gun and kills most of them. I say NO FAIR!
    A hurricane or tornado or fire roars through a town filled with worshippers and kills dozens that worship "Him", and financially ruins many others while destroying several "Houses of Worship" built with the money of those HE killed or ruined. I say a bit TOO tough as well as NO FAIR!
    Hundreds of refugees of a highly religious race, running from "hell" on Earth, ask for "sanctuary" in what is considered to be a "nation of God" (by a certain religion), and are refused. I say NO FAIR! Isn't "sanctuary" a protection by GOD??
    Another religion, of the same "god" lives by a different set of "god given rules". The two religions kill millions over centuries and STILL this "loving god" doesn't show up, correct the problems, and allows the killing and suffering of women and children in those "religions" to continue unabated, and in "the name of God" on BOTH sides. "Tough?? Fair??
    I call all of the above "insanity".
    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When MANY suffer from a delusion, it's called religion". Robert Persig..
    "During 15 centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been the fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indulgence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity. In both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." James Madison  
    Zombieguy1987anonymousdebater
  • TTKDBTTKDB 261 Pts
    edited December 2018
    @AlofRI

    Man has been putting humanity (or himself) on trial, since the notion of picking up a club, an bludgeoning another with it, first took place.

    In other words, man has been putting humanity (or himself) on trial long before any religion, was ever around.
    AlofRIZombieguy1987
  • @AlofRI What evidence can you provide that God is to blame for every bad thing that happens?
    Zombieguy1987
  • @YeshuaLovesYou ; What evidence can YOU provide that says "God" is responsible for anything GOOD that happens? For the "creation" of the universe? For the "creation" of man?? That "God" shows ANY love to ANYONE? That "heaven and "hell" exist? That the Christian "God" is different than the Islamic "God"?? That the Bible is "The Word of God", and that the Qur'an is not??
    You can't. I cannot either, PROVE what I believe. Every year, though, man comes closer to learning the answers. They do not lean toward ancient myths, like, "The Sun and all the planets revolve around the Earth.", as the "church" once demanded.
  • TTKDBTTKDB 261 Pts
    edited December 2018
    @AlofRI

    Why do you view the below as irrelevant? 

    Man has been putting humanity (or himself) on trial, since the notion of picking up a club, an bludgeoning another with it, first took place.

    In other words, man has been  putting humanity (or himself) on trial long before any religion, was ever around.

    Is it not the truth? 


    Zombieguy1987
  • This is just my opinion, but I don't think that God really does much. He guided us through our beginnings, then became less and less seen, until now we might even say, like Nietzsche, that "God Is Dead". It seems more likely though, that like a parent He eventually stepped back, and sent us off to grow and mature without His constant interference. 
    Why do good people suffer? Why do wars continue, and bad people roam the streets? It's because God gave us freewill, and a world to do with as we choose. The gamble was, that in the end we will prove ourselves to be generally a rather decent sort, and that's been proven out pretty much. 
    We have free will to hate God, or not believe in Him at all. We have free will to lie and cheat, steal and bully others - but the greater majority of us don't. 
    God may have His hand in the mix here and there, but the gift of free will is weakened if He is constantly there guiding our hands, as some would like to believe He does. 
    God is not tough or fair, anymore then your parents watching you from a distance. 
    IMHO
  • @AlofRI ; Please answer my question. If God does exist, what evidence can you provide to blame Him? He has been so faithful to me.
  • @AlofRI ; He saved my life when He forgave my sins and other time too.
  • @Zombieguy1987

    Why do you view the below as irrelevant? 

    Man has been putting humanity (or himself) on trial, since the notion of picking up a club, an bludgeoning another with it, first took place.

    In other words, man has been  putting humanity (or himself) on trial long before any religion, was ever around.

    Is it not the truth?  
  • @Gian_Greene Are you a deist? 
  • @YeshuaLovesYou
    Deism - 1. Belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism). 2. Belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.

    I subscribe to definition #1, but not #2. To paraphrase Neil Tyson; The supernatural is just things we haven't explained yet, and we're explaining more and more everyday. 
    I believe that God set things in motion, with a very particular refined set of physical laws, and that he doesn't use 'God Magic' in violation of these laws. 
    God's existence though, is outside of this physical realm, and so by definition, is not constrained by those laws. 
    Despite my views, there are many gray areas on this topic, and that's why we are here debating ;) 

  • @Gian_Greene Thank you. I am loving this debate. I hope I don't offend, just sharing what I believe, and bringing up material for debate. Peace to you. :)
  • "There is an invisible man, living up in the sky that watches everything you do all the time. Every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things. And if you any of these 10 things he has a place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish he will send you till the end of time. But he loves you." George Carlin
    Zombieguy1987
  • @midopreal Hello. I am mostly debating monotheists. I will make a debate on the existance of God.
  • @AlofRI ; He saved my life when He forgave my sins and other time too.

    Can you stop using videos as evidence...

    It's kind of lazy

    https://www.google.com/search?q=victims+of+religion&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=x&ved=0ahukewihu9jugorfahwkmeakhbtib00q_auidigb&biw=1920&bih=963&safe=active

    Socialism/Communism are great on paper, but all you need to do is look at Venezuela or North Korea see why these economic systems fail

    Repealing the Second Amendment is the first step to Totalitarianism, and it needs to be prevented to protect our freedom 

    http://www.atheistrepublic.com/
  •  I really don't think you can justify burning someone for eternity just because they didn't believe in your existence. No matter what you say, people like; Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Einstein do not deserve to suffer in hell while child molesters and murderers are eating fruits in heaven.
    Polaris95
  • TTKDBTTKDB 261 Pts


    This video offers some compelling points of view. 
  • TTKDBTTKDB 261 Pts
    @AlexOland

    What legitimate evidence, do you have, to support your below statements, other than your individual perception or perspective? 

    "No matter what you say, people like; Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Einstein do not deserve to suffer in hell while child molesters and murderers are eating fruits in heaven."
  • TTKDB said:
    @AlexOland

    What legitimate evidence, do you have, to support your below statements, other than your individual perception or perspective? 

    "No matter what you say, people like; Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Einstein do not deserve to suffer in hell while child molesters and murderers are eating fruits in heaven."

    What he means is God (Despite all caring and loving), would allow child molesters and murderers to go to heaven for forgiving their sins, but Hawking, Dawkins, Hitchens and Einstein, all being atheists, are sent to hell



    https://www.google.com/search?q=victims+of+religion&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=x&ved=0ahukewihu9jugorfahwkmeakhbtib00q_auidigb&biw=1920&bih=963&safe=active

    Socialism/Communism are great on paper, but all you need to do is look at Venezuela or North Korea see why these economic systems fail

    Repealing the Second Amendment is the first step to Totalitarianism, and it needs to be prevented to protect our freedom 

    http://www.atheistrepublic.com/
  • TTKDBTTKDB 261 Pts
    @Zombieguy1987

    Where is your legitimate evidence to support this point of view from you? 

    "What he means is God (Despite all caring and loving), would allow child molesters and murderers to go to heaven for forgiving their sins, but Hawking, Dawkins, Hitchens and Einstein, all being atheists, are sent to hell."

  • TTKDB said:
    @Zombieguy1987

    Where is your legitimate evidence to support this point of view from you? 

    "What he means is God (Despite all caring and loving), would allow child molesters and murderers to go to heaven for forgiving their sins, but Hawking, Dawkins, Hitchens and Einstein, all being atheists, are sent to hell."

    Well gee... According to one of @YeshuaLovesYou debates, forgiving your sins=Going to heaven

    https://debateisland.com/discussion/3142/is-salvation-the-free-gift-christians-cant-lose-i-have-evidence-this-time

    https://www.google.com/search?q=victims+of+religion&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=x&ved=0ahukewihu9jugorfahwkmeakhbtib00q_auidigb&biw=1920&bih=963&safe=active

    Socialism/Communism are great on paper, but all you need to do is look at Venezuela or North Korea see why these economic systems fail

    Repealing the Second Amendment is the first step to Totalitarianism, and it needs to be prevented to protect our freedom 

    http://www.atheistrepublic.com/
  • TTKDBTTKDB 261 Pts
    @Zombieguy1987

    And if an individual is anti religious, and there's no religion of any type, being voluntarily Incorporated into an anti religious individuals life, then how is there any issue to be had with any religion of any type then? 

    Unless an anti religious individual voluntarily chooses to develop an issue over any religion to begin with? 

    I'm pro community, but I don't have any issues with an individual being anti religious or religious.


    Zombieguy1987
  • Is it fair that all non-believers be sent to hell, even if they did good deeds during their lifetime? Is it fair that millions die from natural disasters? I think not.
    Zombieguy1987
  • TTKDBTTKDB 261 Pts
    @midopreal

    "There is an invisible man, living up in the sky that watches everything you do all the time. Every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things. And if you any of these 10 things he has a place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish he will send you till the end of time. But he loves you." George Carlin"

    Do you have any non anti religious material, from Mr. George Carlin, to present an equal and fair argument with? 
    Zombieguy1987
  • TTKDBTTKDB 261 Pts
    @Polaris95

    "Is it fair that all non-believers be sent to hell, even if they did good deeds during their lifetime? Is it fair that millions die from natural disasters? I think not."

    Same counter argument, for you also:

    And if an individual is anti religious, and there's no religion of any type, being voluntarily Incorporated into an anti religious individuals life, then how is there any issue to be had with any religion of any type then? 

    Unless an anti religious individual voluntarily chooses to develop an issue over any religion to begin with? 

    I'm pro community, but I don't have any issues with an individual being anti religious or religious. 
    Zombieguy1987SkeletalSkeptic
  • @AlexOland I don't fully understand that either, but considering the fact that Yeshua as a freewill sacrifice allowed Himself to be tortured to death to pay for our sins when He did not have to, He has the right to be angry. How would you feel if you offered to save someone from something tragic, and that person refused your free gift? Would ou feel good or bad? Say your neighbor's house was on fire, and you offered to save his or her life, but they cursed you? Would you feel good or bad?
  • @Polaris95 Yeshua has the right to be angry at unrepentant sinners for refusing His free gift of eternal security. He died for you, yet you revile Him. Why is that? Did you consider my evidence. If you knew what Yeshua has done for me, you would understand. I used to hate Him until I was in my teens, then when He presented His offer, I repented of all of my sins, received Him as my God, Lord, and Savior, and fell in love with Him. Not in a weird way, but I am so in awe of Yeshua. Before I was saved, I thought I had to kill myself to be close to Yeshua, but if I had gone through with it and refused the free gift, I too would deserve Hell. When people break a promise they make to you, how do you feel about it?
  • @YeshuaBought
    is it possible for you to give an example of something Yeshua has done for you?
    Zombieguy1987
  • @SkeletalSkeptic He saved my life. I was almost murdered, and when I prayed to Him, He provided a way of escape.
  • @YeshuaBought

    "Yeshua has the right to be angry at unrepentant sinners for refusing His free gift of eternal security."

    Okay, that has so many things wrong with it so I don't even know where to start. 

     Firstly, I am not refusing anybody's gift. I just simply do not believe in some old textbook. If god made it clear to me that he was giving me a gift, I would gladly accept it. But this is just not the case. Just because some old book says something, that doesn't mean it's true. God has to prove to me that this book is his, which he didn't. So it is unjust for him to just expect us to believe him without any proper reason.

     Secondly, his actions make no sense at all. "How dare you not accept my gift of kindness! You will burn in hell for this!" This makes no sense. If somebody is pointing a gun at your head and telling you to eat some of his delicious cookies that he made for you, the cookies are not a gift of "kindness" anymore are they? If god really was kind, and what he presented really was a gift, he would not throw us in hell just because we did not accept the gift. And I am assuming that there is a gift to accept here.

     
    Zombieguy1987
  • @AlexOland

    The initial reaction, that the Bible is just some musty old 'textbook' may feel right, but it doesn't stand against the scrutiny of the best scholars of the last two thousand years - many who dearly wanted to discredit the Bible.

    If you were to study the history of the Bible, you'd find that it wasn't written by just a few guys way back when, but that it was written by over 40 people, spanning 1,500 years. These people came from Asia, Africa, and Europe and wrote in places ranging from the wilderness of Mount Sinai to the prison walls of Paul. They included kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, scholars, prophets, ... etc. Despite this, there is an overwhelming consistency between these authors.

    With that said, it rivals any other spiritual book for consistency and historical accuracy. Based upon this, one is tempted to believe that, if the underlying structure stands up to the test of time, then the details of their stories are probably not too far from the truth.

    This doesn't prove that the Bible was the inspired word of God, but everyday in the news, we accept stories that are much less supported.

    If then, we were to at least give a nod to the Bible, as possibly being a statement of fact, then the message that it is trying to get across, becomes easier to listen to.

    2) "How dare you not accept my gift of kindness! You will burn in Hell for this!"

    This argument, is faulty at it's heart.

    God is love. All discussions need to start with that premise, or you're not talking about the God of the Bible.

    If God is love, then his stance is not ‘love me or screw you’, it's more ‘love me or you're missing the point’. You don't go to Hell for not loving God, you go to Hell because you didn't allow for the true love within you to blossom.

    The Bible shows throughout, that God gives us every chance to repent, and see that love is the way, not selfishness. Much like you and your unruly child, you love them so much, but you know that if they continue in their ways, they will grow up to live a very limited, unsatisfying life. You may even use that as a threat of sorts; ‘listen to me or else’. You are not threatening to make their lives hell, you are showing them that they willingly walking into Hell without realizing it, unless they change their ways.

    God didn't create Hell as a place of punishment. Hell is merely the place separate from God. If you choose to live this life without God's love, you then are choosing to live without God's love for the rest of eternity - not His punishment, your choice. Every opportunity is given to you to change your ways, but in the end, God gave us free will, and it's your choice. You do not have to accept His gift of kindness, go ahead and stay in your burning house, while He stands outside and mourns the loss.

    Yes, God’s gift requires you to do your part. This is not a democracy where you can hate the establishment, while reaping all of the rewards. This is not socialism where you don’t have to contribute, but can scream about not getting your ‘fair share’. If you don’t accept God’s love, God will still fervently love you, but despite leading you to the water, He can not make you drink.

    IMHO

  • AlecAlec 69 Pts
    edited January 6
    The bible says most of humanity will burn in hell forever.  A God that burns people in hell over things as trivial as sins does not deserve my worship or respect whatsoever.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @Alec I can't do the Holy Spirit's job got Him, but I can debate you and present the information. What happens between Yeshua and you is your choice.
  • @AlexOland You have failed to change my mind. I would be even more angry than Yeshua if I had the choice. Yeshua is mild compared toi some people. He paid for your sins, and you atheists or whatever you are curse Him. If someonme cursed and slandered you, I KNOW you would curse them back. I stand by my original statement that Yeshua has the legal right in His court of Law to be angry about all of the abuse He suffered. He conversly is much more even tempered than I would be. I would not die on the cross for someone who was my enemy. Yeshua has more patience than me, if you want someone faithful, turn to Yeshua. No way are you as kind as Yeshua either. I would destroy my creation if I were God, so spare the victim card.
  • Love is not about feelings, love is a choice. I of my own freewill choose to love Yeshua and His rights as God in Human flesh. He did not force me. I consented to receive his gift. If you don't love Yeshua, that is truely your issue, but I have the right to choose who I love.
  • @YeshuaBought
     Yes. If somebody cursed me or refused my gift that I made specifically for them, I would be angry.

     BUT I WOULD NOT SEND THEM TO A PLACE OF ETERNAL AGONY.

     This is what you are missing. What you say we will experience is not a small insignificant thing, you are claiming that not believing in god will result in us suffering until the end of time. Do you really think we deserve that? I would understand if we got some punishment but... this is just ridiculous. 

     I am not cursing god. I simply do not believe he exists because he did not give me any reason to do so. If I knew that a god existed and I still did not respect him after everything he had done, you would be right. But I do not know if a god exists or not. There is no evidence that whatever is said in the book is true.

     If I told you that I saved all of humanity and everyone should respect and worship me, would you do it? Would you start worshipping me just because I am claiming that I saved your life? 

     Let's suppose that I am the saviour of mankind and you, even though you read my text, did not respect me or believe in what I said. Am I justified to punish you in this scenario? No, I am not. Because what you did was not disrespecting me. You simply did not know what I did for you, so you could not thank me for it. Yes, I informed you that I was your saviour but you had no way of knowing whether that information was true or false.

     EVEN IF I was cursing god and disrespecting him although I knew he existed, how could that possibly justify eternal suffering? How can any mistake you make justify eternal suffering? Even Hitler or Stalin doesn't deserve eternal suffering. Even child molesters don't deserve eternal suffering. Neither do serial killers, dictators, or any other person that is considered bad.

     You just can not justify it. 

     
    Zombieguy1987
  • @AlexOland You don't have the right to go to Heaven unless you repent of all your sins and receive Yeshua as your God, Lord, and Savior. Don't be so selfish after what Yeshua did for you.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @YeshuaBought That was not an argument.
    Zombieguy1987
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 410 Pts
    edited January 7
    @yeshuabought God is the father right? If you have a child at what point do you completely disown them, or even worse, punish them for as long and as bad as you can? Does anything justify you doing that to your child?

    Humans are inherently flawed beings, yet even we have the standard that a parent should have unconditional love for their child. There are mothers out there that will still love their child even if they are a serial murderer, they don't have to approve of their actions but they still love them and want the best for them going forward. 

    If God is willing to send his children to eternal damnation, the absolute worst punishment he could inflict on you, then he is a worse parent than many humans, and we are flawed beings. God shouldn't be worse than even the best, kindest, most unconditional loving parent, right, because he is perfect and we are not? Yet humans are capable of unconditional loving someone, even when they spend their whole life hurting them or other people, and even after death can continue to love them. These parents may be rare, but their existence is still a standard that God should supposedly be better than.
    Zombieguy1987
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