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Why is the Gospel so offensive?
in Religion

I don't understand. Yeshua Jesus is offering the free gift of salvation to respentant sinners who know Him as God, Lord, and Savior. I just don't get it.
K_MichaelZombieguy1987



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  • Not understanding doesn't make it offensive.
    Zombieguy1987AlofRIIdolRocks
    "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." 
  • @K_Michael I agree. I don't remember infering otherwise.
    IdolRocks
  • Salvation is an illogical concept. What you have done is done, and nothing can erase it from history. You can, however, through your action (and not through some divine benevolence) fix the consequences of what you did before, or redeem yourself by making up for it.

    "Oh, I sinned, I am so bad... I repent." - saying this means nothing. You just created some sound waves in the air, which will be extinguished in a few milliseconds.

    "Damn, I screwed up... Okay, let us move on, learn from this mistake and do a better job later." - now this I can respect; this has real world consequences.

    So, Gospel is not "offensive" in this regard. It is just senseless.
  • You are not redeemed or saved just by "repenting" vocally.
    You must have an actual sorrow for the things you did wrong, try to fix it and prevent similar mistakes by you and others.
    You have to have the right intent, or it won't count for anything.
    "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1878 Pts
    edited January 20
    @K_Michael

    I do not care what the intent is. Intent means nothing, it exists only in the head of the person. I care about the action.

    Okay, you are sorry, you genuinely want to repent. Now what? What are you going to do about your failures?

    If you take action and fix those failures, then you do not need to repent: you redeemed yourself already.

    If you just repent, but it leads nowhere practically - then your repenting is meaningless.

    ---

    Christianity promotes this strange concept of "I feel sorrow = I gain some points". This is not how the real world works, however. If you have failed to pay off your loan, you will not go to the bank saying, "I feel sorry", and get an indulgence - you will either find a way to get the money to pay off the loan, or you will go to the courtroom and explain to the judge how sorry you are, and the judge will explain to you how fun your finances are going to be in the upcoming years.
    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
  • God isn't like that judge. While your actions are important, they aren't the only part. Let's say you got hit by a bus and died after stealing a candy bar, before you could take any actions to redeem yourself. However, you had the intent to return to that store, apologise, and pay for the candy bar. Are you forgiven for that sin or not? you try to separate intent and action, but intent is the thought and planning to accomplish something.
    Besides, if only actions redeemed you, that would be the easy way out. Punched a guy and left without paying my bill? I'll go do some humanitarian work and donate some old clothes. All better. Now, to go drinking and paint the town red with my friends. See? If you think that good actions will make up for your bad actions, then you'll just repeat this cycle. The intent and sorrow are added so that you can try and break the cycle.
    "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1878 Pts
    edited January 20
    Why would you be forgiven for any "sin" at all? If you kill someone's dog, then nothing you can possibly do will bring that dog back. Instead of wallowing in regret and pity, you can try to do something for the dog's owners or its canine mates - but whatever you do, what is done is done: the dog is gone.

    People should learn to focus more on their present and future, instead of agonizing over the past. The latter never did anyone any good.

    Want to redeem yourself for your mistakes? Then get your life straight and lead by example. I do not see the value in feeling sorrow and apologizing, but I do see the value in moving further and making the mistakes irrelevant next to your achievements.

    If someone murdered someone, proceeded to learn a few sciences while in prison, and led on to becoming a Nobel Prize winner in physics - then, in my eyes, they have demonstrated that they are no longer that person. Instead, if they had spent the whole time in prison wailing in regret - and came out with nothing but sorrow... Then they have learned nothing. Even if they have done a lot of community service at the same time, fundamentally they are stuck on their past, and that past has defined them and barred their progress as an individual.

  • You can progress as an individual by focusing on your past. If you look back on your worst moment, and think, "I will never be that person again," then you can go far. Moving on is important, and I didn't say to just mope around and feel sorry for doing something bad. But you should have regrets, a lesson learned. 
    I think you're making a larger effort to estrange our views from each other than is necessary. 
    "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." 
  • @MayCaesar Jesus is the God who loves His creation. Please debate me.
  • MayCaesar said:
    Salvation is an illogical concept. What you have done is done, and nothing can erase it from history. You can, however, through your action (and not through some divine benevolence) fix the consequences of what you did before, or redeem yourself by making up for it.

    "Oh, I sinned, I am so bad... I repent." - saying this means nothing. You just created some sound waves in the air, which will be extinguished in a few milliseconds.

    "Damn, I screwed up... Okay, let us move on, learn from this mistake and do a better job later." - now this I can respect; this has real world consequences.

    So, Gospel is not "offensive" in this regard. It is just senseless.
    MayCaesar said:
    Salvation is an illogical concept. What you have done is done, and nothing can erase it from history. You can, however, through your action (and not through some divine benevolence) fix the consequences of what you did before, or redeem yourself by making up for it.

    "Oh, I sinned, I am so bad... I repent." - saying this means nothing. You just created some sound waves in the air, which will be extinguished in a few milliseconds.

    "Damn, I screwed up... Okay, let us move on, learn from this mistake and do a better job later." - now this I can respect; this has real world consequences.

    So, Gospel is not "offensive" in this regard. It is just senseless.
    I disagree. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death. But Jesus saves those who repent of past, present, and future sins, and receive Him as their God, Lord, and Savior.
  • I don't think it's the Gospel per se that some may find offensive, it's the concept of an eternal all encompassing god, which you must revere or thank for whatever reason... Salvation? Christopher Hitchens once said something like this: The desire to subject yourself (and worst, others) to an invisible eternal dictator who thinks he deserves a complete dominion over your essence is absolutely abject and loathsome...
    Zombieguy1987AlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen Jesus is God, and deserves to be worshipped.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @YeshuaBought

    Why would any god deserve worship? I find that longing for worship is petty, more so when it come from a supposedly omniscient & omnipotent being... 
    Zombieguy1987
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen Maybe this is just me, but if God became flesh to be tortured to death to pay for my sins which really are many, I personally believe He is entitled to my worship. Jesus is the love of my life. I don't deserve Him, but I have Him anyway. He loves you, and if you were the only person who needed Him, He still would suffer and die for you. He is worth it. Jesus saved my physical life when He saved my soul. I was going to kill myself when I was 15, and being saved by Jesus gave me a reason to live. What basically is stopping you from loving Jesus? :)
    IdolRocks
  • @YeshuaBought

    What is stopping me from loving Jesus? First and foremost my rejection of the very concept of divinity I guess, then there's the fact that I don't think he actually existed... I do think the basic message is a good one but it's basically the Golden Rule blended with some unnecessary supernatural nonsense... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen What typ of evidence do you need, and I might be able to help you. :)
    IdolRocks
  • I don't understand. Yeshua Jesus is offering the free gift of salvation to respentant sinners who know Him as God, Lord, and Savior. I just don't get it.
    I find this pretty offensive.

    “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.” Dt.13:6-10

    The bible is a manual for bigotry. It's handy for those times when you need to hate somebody that is the same color as you are.

    Plaffelvohfen
  • @Dr_Maybe You must be a leftist.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @Dr_Maybe This is NOT over. Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". You have been debunked.
    Zombieguy1987
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 685 Pts
    edited February 5
    @Plaffelvohfen What typ of evidence do you need, and I might be able to help you. :)
    How about empirical evidence?

    I've been raised a catholic, Sunday school and all. and I have come across all possible arguments and none was in the least convincing. I can understand a deistic view of Existence, although I've some reserves too, but I outright reject theism not only as nonsense but also as detrimental to human flourishing.
    Zombieguy1987
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Dr_Maybe You must be a leftist.
    Nope, I'm a rightest.
    Zombieguy1987
  • AlofRIAlofRI 268 Pts
    I don't think MOST of "the Gospel" is at all offensive. Much of it is just common sense, much of it is accepted by the majority of people as just that.
    Mostly because the alleged "author" never shows up to quiet the radicals that USE it as a control tool, many, (more all the time), can only see it as mythology. If a true "god" is "out there", he's like a CEO that's never seen by his workers. He loses respect and many begin to think he doesn't exist. S/HE/IT is guilty of poor management. Sometimes I have to see to believe, it's all I ask.
  • @Dr_Maybe This is NOT over. Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". You have been debunked.
    This is NOT over? What do you mean by that?
  • IdolRocks
  • @AlofRI Prove that the Gospel is a myth.
  • @Dr_Maybe Liar. You are speaking like a bigoted Christian hating liberal. 
    Zombieguy1987
  • @Dr_Maybe Liar. You are speaking like a bigoted Christian hating liberal. 
    But I learned that trick from you guys so why is that a problem?


  • @YeshuaBought - Prove that Jesus was the Son of God and I'll prove that the Gospels are a myth.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • IdolRocksIdolRocks 54 Pts
    @YeshuaRedeemed What do you not understand?
  • IdolRocksIdolRocks 54 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen Well that is sad that you don't think He actually exsted, considering all the wealth of evidence that proves without a doubt that He walked on this earth. Whether or not He was the Son of God, that is another conversation, but there is no doubt that He walked this earth. 

    https://carm.org/why-is-evidence-of-jesus-found-only-in-the-bible

    https://carm.org/proof-that-jesus-existed

    https://carm.org/jesus-exist

    https://carm.org/was-jesus-just-myth


  • IdolRocksIdolRocks 54 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen ;The bible is a manual for bigotry. It's handy for those times when you need to hate somebody that is the same color as you are.Why is "Bigotry" wrong? What basis or standard are you using to decide that bigotry is wrong?
     @Dr_Maybe
    Perhaps you should try searching for this "Deuteronomy 13:6-10  explained".
    Did you ever do that?

    http://bbfohio.com/how-do-you-defend-deuteronomy-1313/

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/guzik_david/StudyGuide2017-Deu/Deu-13.cfm

    http://www.biblequery.org/dt.html

    Q: In Dt 13:1-16 and Dt 18:10-12, today should we kill enchanters, necromancers, and all those the Old Testament says to kill? 
    A: No. Three points to consider in the answer. 
    1. Government investigation: Even back then, you could not just take it in your own hands to personally kill someone you suspected of that. Deuteronomy 13:14 said the town was to make a thorough (and presumably official) investigation first. 
    2. Only under theocracy: The Israelites lived under a "theocracy" where those who lived in the land had covenanted with God the Torah was the legal code. When godly Jews, such as Daniel, Jonah, Ezekiel, and Nehemiah, lived and traveled outside of Israel, where they were not under a theocracy, they made no effort to harm enchanters, idolators, or others. 
    3. Today, we do not live under a "theocracy". While some people such as the Puritans, attempted to set up a theocracy, the New Testament gives no such indication that we should attempt to do so. Thus, Christians today should not harm immoral heterosexuals, practicing homosexuals, idolators, cultists, and so forth. While murder, theft, and other crimes still should be punished today, that is a government function; there should be no Christian vigilantes. However, even today we should not do those things ourselves. 
     
  • TKDBTKDB 266 Pts
    edited May 12
    People went to church last Sunday, and they'll go to church this Sunday as well.
  • @AlofRI You haven't answered my question, please do. 
  • Dr_Maybe said:
    @Dr_Maybe Liar. You are speaking like a bigoted Christian hating liberal. 
    But I learned that trick from you guys so why is that a problem?


    I have done nothing wrong. It is not hate to disagree with your opinion.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1878 Pts
    @AlofRI Prove that the Gospel is a myth.
    The burden of proof is on those who claim otherwise. By default, any book is a fiction, unless someone has managed to demonstrate that it is not.

    And especially if you know history and have an idea of how Gospel came to be and what folklore elements were used there, you will have a really hard time seeing it as anything other than fiction. Unless, that is, you believe folklore to describe real historical events as well...
    YeshuaBought
  • AlofRIAlofRI 268 Pts
    @YeshuaRedeemed: But I did answer your question, if you are talking about your original one, in my first comment. I'm not one that thinks it's offensive. It was cobbled together out of ancient writings hundreds of years after the "fact". Had to be filled in and interpreted FROM ancient languages by the Emperor Constantine and his monks (or whatever they were called), who, I'm sure, WANTED it to say what they wanted it to say. Much of the written version, I would think, was, frankly, myths FROM those years. Writing (and word chiseling into stone), was an art practiced by a few at that time. more was done by storytelling and the "writers" were not, for the most part, those that observed the actual happenings … so, hearsay.

    I think much of it is just good common sense. I try to live by "good, common sense", ( i.e. most of that "Gospel"). I simply don't have confidence in its origin or its author (s).
    YeshuaBought
  • MayCaesar said:
    @AlofRI Prove that the Gospel is a myth.
    The burden of proof is on those who claim otherwise. By default, any book is a fiction, unless someone has managed to demonstrate that it is not.

    And especially if you know history and have an idea of how Gospel came to be and what folklore elements were used there, you will have a really hard time seeing it as anything other than fiction. Unless, that is, you believe folklore to describe real historical events as well...
    You have the right to your opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts. If you are going to make a claim that the Bible is false, or fiction, you will have to prove it, or i will have to ignore everything you say.
  • IdolRocks said:
    @Plaffelvohfen ;The bible is a manual for bigotry. It's handy for those times when you need to hate somebody that is the same color as you are.Why is "Bigotry" wrong? What basis or standard are you using to decide that bigotry is wrong?
     @Dr_Maybe
    Perhaps you should try searching for this "Deuteronomy 13:6-10  explained".
    Did you ever do that?

    http://bbfohio.com/how-do-you-defend-deuteronomy-1313/

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/guzik_david/StudyGuide2017-Deu/Deu-13.cfm

    http://www.biblequery.org/dt.html

    Q: In Dt 13:1-16 and Dt 18:10-12, today should we kill enchanters, necromancers, and all those the Old Testament says to kill? 
    A: No. Three points to consider in the answer. 
    1. Government investigation: Even back then, you could not just take it in your own hands to personally kill someone you suspected of that. Deuteronomy 13:14 said the town was to make a thorough (and presumably official) investigation first. 
    2. Only under theocracy: The Israelites lived under a "theocracy" where those who lived in the land had covenanted with God the Torah was the legal code. When godly Jews, such as Daniel, Jonah, Ezekiel, and Nehemiah, lived and traveled outside of Israel, where they were not under a theocracy, they made no effort to harm enchanters, idolators, or others. 
    3. Today, we do not live under a "theocracy". While some people such as the Puritans, attempted to set up a theocracy, the New Testament gives no such indication that we should attempt to do so. Thus, Christians today should not harm immoral heterosexuals, practicing homosexuals, idolators, cultists, and so forth. While murder, theft, and other crimes still should be punished today, that is a government function; there should be no Christian vigilantes. However, even today we should not do those things ourselves. 
     
    That doesn't answer my question.
  • IdolRocksIdolRocks 54 Pts
     @YeshuaRedeemed Why not?
  • IdolRocksIdolRocks 54 Pts
    @MayCaesar "And especially if you know history and have an idea of how Gospel came to be and what folklore elements were used there, you will have a really hard time seeing it as anything other than fiction. Unless, that is, you believe folklore to describe real historical events as well..."

    Wow!! You really do not know what you are talking about? You know how the Gospels came to be, and deep down it makes perfect sense, and you know that it is true, but because you cannot admit that you are wrong, you instead are making up a story to explain where they came from. Wow!!
    Plaffelvohfen
  • IdolRocksIdolRocks 54 Pts
    @MayCaesar "By default, any book is a fiction, unless someone has managed to demonstrate that it is not."

    Actually, it should be the exact opposite. Whenever I watch the show "Cops, it always says something like "criminal is innocnt until proven guilty". So in the same way, it is true, until it proven to be false. 

    It's called "benefit of the doubt". 

    From something that is right out of one of my books, which also happens to be online.

    https://www.josh.org/resources/apologetics/answering-skeptics/

    Isn’t the Bible Full of Contradictions?

    "One of the things for which we appeal with regard to possible contradictions is fairness. We should not minimize or exaggerate the problem, and we must always begin by giving the author the benefit of the doubt. This is the rule in other literature, and we ask that it also be the rule here. We find so often that people want to employ a different set of rules when it comes to examining the Bible, and to this we immediately object."
  • @IdolRocks I really messed up. I am so sorry. I apologize to everyone here. Please give me a chance to prove how sorry I am.
  • IdolRocksIdolRocks 54 Pts
    @YeshuaRedeemed Am, okay, sure. No problem at all. 
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