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Is A Wall On The U.S. Southern Border A Good Idea?
in Politics

By brntnfbrntnf 2 Pts edited January 22
Many people argue that Trump’s wall is a ridiculous idea. I’d like to understand why.
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  • TKDBTKDB 102 Pts
    Yes it is.
    Before Trump became the POTUS, many were onboard with the idea, of there being a border wall, and border security.
    But once Trump became the POTUS, they, who were on board, decided against it, I guess apparently as a probable protest to the current POTUS?
    Do those who are opposed to the POTUS, and the Border wall, do they speak for the entirety of the country?
    No, they don't, they speak for 48% of the public, while 52% of the public agrees with the border wall.
    It's basically, a public political chess match.
    Zombieguy1987Applesauce
  • No, it’s not. 

    A fence is a direct act of greed as it serves such a limited purpose the general welfare. We build a canal for others but not ourselves. What happened to make America first again?

    A very big canal is a good idea a very long, deep, and wide canal. Largest manmade structure in existence. One ocean to the other. A method of transportation, a source of water, a way to desalinate added pollution of salts and chemical deicers in the oceans, a way to displace lots of water to effect water levels that rise, under ideal condition an effective way to redirect energy from storm surge.

    A wall fence keeps some things either in or out on both sides of the wall/fence. A canal is just so much more than that.
    Applesauce
  • Seeing as how 300+ migrants just tunneled under a wall down in Phoenix last week, I would say it's a fairly poor investment. Rates of illegal immigration have dropped significantly over the past decade. The demographics of illegal immigrants has also shifted dramatically where now we see mostly families and unaccompanied minors crossing the border. A change in immigration laws, which should have been revamped 50 years ago, could give a better channel of legal immigration to those families and minors and cut down on illegal crossings even more.

    Steel fencing can be easily cut. Concrete can be easily tunneled under or destroyed. Maintenance costs will be large. The goal of the wall is to make sure no one steps a single foot into the US as they can then stay while their asylum claim is processed, so you have to have the entire border manned at all times at small physical distances between manned stations.

    If the wall gets money and begins construction and Democrats retake the White House in 2020 or 2024 construction will cease before it is finished leaving portions with no wall, which according to the pro wall rhetoric would leave whatever wall their is entirely useless as that's where we are now with the walls that we have. If Democrats maintain control of the house or the Senate will we just suffer a shutdown Everytime a new budget needs to be passed over a single minor issue?

    Reforming the laws is the answer and vastly cheaper. Hardly any "bad guys" are crossing the border illegally, it's overwhelmingly families and children. The "bad guys" that are crossing the border would be the cartels who are very well funded and powerful and would have no trouble bypassing the wall as they already do.

    The cartels rarely cross the border by walking over the line as that's the easiest way to get caught. We've already found tunnels that stretch for miles into US soil so that they can smuggle drugs in by getting behind border patrol. The drugs they do smuggle in are weed meth and heroin. Their weed market is dying with legalization, meth hardly contributes to ODs and fetanyl, primarily from China entering via airports, and prescription opiates, produced right here,  account for ~70% of opiate overdoses without addressing either of those addicts will just shift their source, which they already are moving more and more towards fetanyl as it's significantly stronger at the same price. The real winners of a border wall would be those that make a business out of facilitating illegal crossings.
    Zombieguy1987CYDdhartaPolaris95piloteer
  • Sure, why not? 
  • We lost the Towers………

    We gained a moat……..


    Zombieguy1987
  • It’s not about cost a canal will pay for itself in many ways………………..

    It’s all about the commitment of achievement. The challenge, rise above or we fall behind.

  • TKDBTKDB 102 Pts
    @John_C_87

    "A fence is a direct act of greed as it serves such a limited purpose the general welfare. We build a canal for others but not ourselves. What happened to make America first again?"

    Isn't there a fence around the White House?

    Does that fence stand in the face of your statement?

    How many US military installations acros the country have fences around them? 

    Do those fences stand in the face of your statement? 

    How many prisons and or jails have a fence around them?

    Do those fences as well stand in the face of your statement as well? 
  • TKDBTKDB 102 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    And stating this again, put a guard detail, or a guard force along the border wall, pulling guard duty along the very perimeter of that wall, along with gound penetrating radar as an anti tunnel device.

    This way, the border wall, and the grounds below the border wall, and the perimeter along the border wall, are being secured by the border wall security, guard duty detail? 

    The above, could be a whole new job market?

    A guard duty detail made up of say, 10,000-12,000 people? I wonder how many ex- military citizens, or US citizens in general, wouldn't go for that new job market? 
    Applesauce
  • Here is a very cheap solution, that would work with 100% effectiveness. You do not need any walls for it. You need but a line of professional-grade seismic detectors along the border. Each detector is around $10,000, and only a few dozen thousands of them are needed for full and complete coverage.

    Couple these detectors to a modern super-computer cluster (you can lease one from a private organization for barely any costs), on which a neural network trained on human footsteps is running. Then, every time somewhere human steps are detected, and there is no record in the database indicating that someone should be there - you know someone is trying to pass the border, and can apprehend them summarily.

    The cost of such a solution is about 1% of what Trump has requested for the wall; it is much more reliable (you cannot trick those detectors, or pass them without detecting you - unless you use a vehicle, which is tricky to do in the desert, especially if you are a broke Mexican runaway, or dig a tunnel, in which case a wall would not help either), does not require as much maintenance (these detectors run for hundreds years before breaking), does not look as barbaric (there are no Great Chinese Seismic Detector Walls), and frees up a lot of personnel from having to patrol barren areas.

    ---

    I can think of thousands high technological solutions that are much cheaper and more effective than any walls. Instead of seismic detectors, you can also use heat detectors, hidden cameras, etc. You can even just patrol the border with a few hundred helicopters constantly - that will be far cheaper than any walls, and it is hard to miss a group of people running through a desert when you have such a huge view.

    A wall is a sign of a very limited and outdated mind, someone who only sees the most direct solutions and cannot think even a few cm away from the edge of the box. Which does not describe Trump, so I do not think he himself seriously believes in the wall. He is a merchant to the bone, and he knows that the idea of the wall sells to a certain subgroup of people - but he surely is smart enough to realize that it is a waste of money that does not solve anything. He is much smarter than most of his followers, and do not mistake him for a simpleton based on his ramblings: he is a seller, and what he says is very different from what he thinks. He has been in a very hardcore business for decades, beating his competitors at most steps. He has a brain, and he knows what sells and what does not.
    CYDdhartaZombieguy1987Polaris95SuperSith89
  • @TKDB so why not just skip the construction time and hire a guard detail to stand along the border? It could be a bigger job market and still cheaper.
    Zombieguy1987Polaris95
  • MayCaesar said:
    Here is a very cheap solution, that would work with 100% effectiveness. You do not need any walls for it. You need but a line of professional-grade seismic detectors along the border. Each detector is around $10,000, and only a few dozen thousands of them are needed for full and complete coverage.

    Couple these detectors to a modern super-computer cluster (you can lease one from a private organization for barely any costs), on which a neural network trained on human footsteps is running. Then, every time somewhere human steps are detected, and there is no record in the database indicating that someone should be there - you know someone is trying to pass the border, and can apprehend them summarily.

    The cost of such a solution is about 1% of what Trump has requested for the wall; it is much more reliable (you cannot trick those detectors, or pass them without detecting you - unless you use a vehicle, which is tricky to do in the desert, especially if you are a broke Mexican runaway, or dig a tunnel, in which case a wall would not help either), does not require as much maintenance (these detectors run for hundreds years before breaking), does not look as barbaric (there are no Great Chinese Seismic Detector Walls), and frees up a lot of personnel from having to patrol barren areas.

    So you pick up people sneaking into the US, then what?  They claim asylum and disappear into a sanctuary city while awaiting a hearing, start a family and have some anchor babies, and march for amnesty while sending money to family members in central and south America so they can do the same.

    I can think of thousands high technological solutions that are much cheaper and more effective than any walls. Instead of seismic detectors, you can also use heat detectors, hidden cameras, etc. You can even just patrol the border with a few hundred helicopters constantly - that will be far cheaper than any walls, and it is hard to miss a group of people running through a desert when you have such a huge view.

    Can you come up with anything viable that will keep illegals physically outside of the US?
    Zombieguy1987Applesauce
  • @CYDdharta sounds like your issue is with how the legislation dictates how we deal with illegals when they are here, which reform could change and be implemented within a year.
    Zombieguy1987Applesauce
  • @CYDdharta sounds like your issue is with how the legislation dictates how we deal with illegals when they are here, which reform could change and be implemented within a year.
    That too
    Applesauce
  • TKDBTKDB 102 Pts
    edited January 22
    @WordsMatter

    @Zombieguy1987

    "so why not just skip the construction time and hire a guard detail to stand along the border? It could be a bigger job market and still cheaper."

    How familiar are you with real life guard duty infrastructures?

    Explain in detail, how I should trust my life in your managerial hands, while working along a 2,000 plus mile border, with no barrier, and you're going to manage 10,000 plus people, with your managerial knowhow?

    Include in detail, just how cheap, cheaper is? 

    @CYDdharta

    Why not get into this conversation as well? 

    Zombieguy1987
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 446 Pts
    edited January 22
    @TKDB when did Trump appoint my as head of border patrol? Did I miss something?
    ApplesauceZombieguy1987
  • TKDBTKDB 102 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    "when did Trump appoint my as head of border patrol? Did I miss something?"

    I've no idea.

    But these are your words, right? 

    "so why not just skip the construction time and hire a guard detail to stand along the border? It could be a bigger job market and still cheaper."

    So, what is your plan? 


    Zombieguy1987
  • I would say it is. If it can be managed like the Berlin wall, though costly, it may work. Otherwise, I cannot see how to solve the problem with the illegals crossing into our country.
    Zombieguy1987
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • @CYDdharta

    I fail to see the point of preventing physical entrance, when the goal really is to reduce the (alleged) negative effects illegal immigrants inflict on the country. An illegal immigrant stepping on the American foot and getting deported a couple of hours later has not inflicted any damage, aside from a few hundred bucks needed to apprehend and deport him/her - the wall costs a couple of orders of magnitude more per attempt of illegal entry. And given that we already pay the governmental employee by hour in any case, make it 3-4 orders of magnitude.

    It seems to me that to you, Trump fans, it is now more of a matter of defending your dear leader's ego, than of actually solving any real problems. From pretty much any more-or-less logical perspective, the wall would be an incredible waste of taxpayers' money. You would do better to spend $10,000 on putting fake "Danger! Toxic Waste!" signs along the border - those would deter far more arrivals, than your wall, and save $15 billions, that can be used to buy a nice Hawaiian pizza for every American in celebration.
    Zombieguy1987
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1061 Pts
    edited January 23
    MayCaesar said:
    @CYDdharta

    I fail to see the point of preventing physical entrance, when the goal really is to reduce the (alleged) negative effects illegal immigrants inflict on the country. An illegal immigrant stepping on the American foot and getting deported a couple of hours later has not inflicted any damage, aside from a few hundred bucks needed to apprehend and deport him/her - the wall costs a couple of orders of magnitude more per attempt of illegal entry. And given that we already pay the governmental employee by hour in any case, make it 3-4 orders of magnitude.

    It seems to me that to you, Trump fans, it is now more of a matter of defending your dear leader's ego, than of actually solving any real problems. From pretty much any more-or-less logical perspective, the wall would be an incredible waste of taxpayers' money. You would do better to spend $10,000 on putting fake "Danger! Toxic Waste!" signs along the border - those would deter far more arrivals, than your wall, and save $15 billions, that can be used to buy a nice Hawaiian pizza for every American in celebration.

    That's because you're not paying attention to what's actually happening. Illegals are NOT being deported hours later, they're claiming asylum as soon as they're caught.  At that point they can NOT be deported until their case is adjudicated.  The adjudication process take month or longer.  The illegals are allowed to roam free inside the US during that time.  Then, more often than not, they skip their court date, and just stay as illegals.  In addition, by-and-large, Hispanics settle near the US-Mexican border, creating a border land of divided loyalties like Kashmir and Gaza.  This is a very bad thing.

    You really need to pay more attention to the issues before you post.  Comments like this just make you look like a dullard.
    Zombieguy1987Applesauce
  • @CYDdharta

    I know very well what is happening. I am talking about how it could be dealt with in a more efficient way, than any walls.
    Zombieguy1987
  • MayCaesar said:
    @CYDdharta

    I know very well what is happening. I am talking about how it could be dealt with in a more efficient way, than any walls.


    Oh, you do!?  Then enlighten us.  How do you propose to keep the illegals physically out of the US without a wall? 
  • I would say it is. If it can be managed like the Berlin wall, though costly, it may work. Otherwise, I cannot see how to solve the problem with the illegals crossing into our country.

    Reform how people get in legally... 

    The current process is to get in legally takes way too long, so people like to cut in line, and if it was reformed so it wasn't so long, them illegal border crossing (Which are already declining by the way) would become rare

    https://www.google.com/search?q=victims+of+religion&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=x&ved=0ahukewihu9jugorfahwkmeakhbtib00q_auidigb&biw=1920&bih=963&safe=active

    For the first time since 2009, the Carolina Hurricanes will be playing for the Stanley Cup! 

    Repealing the Second Amendment is the first step to Totalitarianism, and it needs to be prevented to protect our freedom 

    http://www.atheistrepublic.com/

  • The current process is to get in legally takes way too long, so people like to cut in line, and if it was reformed so it wasn't so long, them illegal border crossing (Which are already declining by the way) would become rare

    The rate isn't declining.  It was in 2017, but it's back up, and that doesn't include the caravans.


  • @CYDdharta

    1. A wall will not keep the illegals physically out of the US.
    2. According to physics, there are no means existing to keep any object physically out of any area - aside from sinking it in a black hole. We do not have the funding to accomplish the latter.
    3. Keeping the illegals physically out of the US is not necessary, if the problems posed by those immigrants are solved by other means.

    Step outside your narrow box where the only solution to any problem is to take a hammer and go at it.
    Zombieguy1987
  • MayCaesar said:
    @CYDdharta

    1. A wall will not keep the illegals physically out of the US.
    2. According to physics, there are no means existing to keep any object physically out of any area - aside from sinking it in a black hole. We do not have the funding to accomplish the latter.
    3. Keeping the illegals physically out of the US is not necessary, if the problems posed by those immigrants are solved by other means.

    Step outside your narrow box where the only solution to any problem is to take a hammer and go at it.

    1. A wall will keep illegals from just walking across the border whenever they feel like it, which is a good start.
    2. Silly and irrelevant
    3. If there isn't the political will to build a wall, there isn't the will to impose the drastic means that would keep illegals from wanting to come to the US.

    Try dealing will issues realistically, you'll have better results.
    Zombieguy1987Applesauce
  • @CYDdharta

    It is not about "will", it is about using a logical approach. The illegal immigrants already cannot "just walk across the border whenever they feel like it", they need to prepare very well, and the wall will just add one more expense of approximately $4 to their inventory.

    This ain't Hollywood, my friend. This ain't Aladdin with a genie lamp. In this real world simply willing something does not make it happen.
    Zombieguy1987CYDdharta
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 446 Pts
    edited January 23
    @CYDdharta " In addition, by-and-large, Hispanics settle near the US-Mexican border, creating a border land of divided loyalties like Kashmir and Gaza"

    Also @CYDdharta "They claim asylum and disappear into a sanctuary city "

    So which one is it? Or does it change based on what narrative you want to tell?
    Zombieguy1987CYDdharta
  • Although I think there are better options than the wall, whatever design is maybe.  A physical barrier is useful and important.  As the news has shown, what is there in many places is a joke or totally broken.  People can support the idea of Trump's wall/border security or wait for a new administration to do nothing as they always have.  No Democrat has offered any real and honest negotiations or ideas on border security, no real plan, because they don't want it.
    The clips of Obama and the dumazz Schumer show they want security etc but did what exactly to make that happen?  What plans did they put forth?  People as sick of the same b.s. of all talk and no action.  This is one of many reasons we have Trump.  For good or bad he's doing or trying to do what he said he would.  What other president has actually done that to the extent he has?  So we are left with this wall idea.  Some of it has been built and he's talking about other ways to get it done.  Fmpov it's either this or nothing.  What other options are there for border security?  Wait and see if a new president will do something?  How's that worked out before Trump?
    This is the previous administration's (all of them) fault, though many can't see it.  If they had dealt with border security and immigration when they had the chance to, pushed it like he does, we wouldn't be talking about this.  When you pass the buck this is what happens and what you get, enjoy.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • @CYDdharta " In addition, by-and-large, Hispanics settle near the US-Mexican border, creating a border land of divided loyalties like Kashmir and Gaza"

    Also @CYDdharta "They claim asylum and disappear into a sanctuary city "

    So which one is it? Or does it change based on what narrative you want to tell?

    There is no difference.  You do realize that most of the sanctuary cities are down by the border, right?
  • MayCaesar said:
    @CYDdharta

    It is not about "will", it is about using a logical approach. The illegal immigrants already cannot "just walk across the border whenever they feel like it", they need to prepare very well, and the wall will just add one more expense of approximately $4 to their inventory.

    This ain't Hollywood, my friend. This ain't Aladdin with a genie lamp. In this real world simply willing something does not make it happen.

    Digging a miles-long tunnel is a $4 expense?  You really DO want to eliminate the minimum wage.  Point out ANYONE in Congress that is trying to make the changes you want.
  • @CYDdharta

    You have a potato soup in your head, unable to parse simple concepts.

    Your wall will not help with stopping tunneling in any way. Its aim is to help with the on-the-surface passage, and that, indeed, demonstrably can be overcome by investing $4 into it.

    I do not care about the Congress; most of the people there are after votes, not solutions.
    Zombieguy1987
  • CYDdharta said:
    @CYDdharta " In addition, by-and-large, Hispanics settle near the US-Mexican border, creating a border land of divided loyalties like Kashmir and Gaza"

    Also @CYDdharta "They claim asylum and disappear into a sanctuary city "

    So which one is it? Or does it change based on what narrative you want to tell?

    There is no difference.  You do realize that most of the sanctuary cities are down by the border, right?
    Are you serious? There isn't a single sanctuary City, county, or state law in all of Texas or Arizona.

    New Mexico won't use county jails to house illegals. Bernalillo county, NM, will not use it's prisons to hold illegal immigrants and if one is in jail there it won't continue to hold them after their sentence is served. San Miguel New Mexico will not detain illegals. They don't interfere with ice, they just don't want to spend their taxpayer money to house the illegals.

    Four counties south of Vegas' latitude in California won't honor ICE detainers, so there's your closest sanctuaries.

    There are 141 various county state and city laws from refusal to use jails to house illegals to refusal to honor ICE detainers in non border states. The vast majority being in Oregon, Washington, Colorado and the Northeast excluding Maine and Delaware. 

    Sanctuary cities list

    States

    California
    Colorado
    Illinois
    Massachusetts
    New Mexico
    Oregon
    Vermont

    Cities and Counties

    California

    Alameda County
    Berkley
    Contra Costa County
    Los Angeles County
    Los Angeles
    Monterey County
    Napa County
    Oakland
    Riverside County
    Sacramento County
    San Bernardino County
    San Diego County

    San Francisco
    San Francisco County
    San Mateo County
    Santa Ana
    Santa Clara County
    Santa Cruz County
    Sonoma County
    Watsonville

    Colorado

    Arapahoe County
    Aurora
    Boulder County
    Denver
    Denver County
    Garfield County
    Grand County
    Jefferson County
    Larimer County
    Mesa County
    Pitkin County
    Pueblo County
    Routt County
    San Miguel County
    Weld County

    Connecticut

    East Haven
    Hartford

    Florida

    Alachua County
    Clay County

    Georgia

    Clayton County
    DeKalb County

    Iowa

    Benton County
    Cass County
    Franklin County
    Fremont County
    Greene County
    Ida County
    Iowa City
    Iowa City, Johnson County
    Jefferson County
    Marion County
    Monona County
    Montgomery County
    Pottawattamie County
    Sioux County

    Illinois

    Chicago
    Cook County

    Kansas

    Butler County
    Harvey County

    Louisiana

    New Orleans

    Massachusetts

    Amherst
    Boston
    Cambridge
    Concord
    Lawrence
    Newton
    Northhampton
    Somerville

    Maryland

    Baltimore
    Montgomery County
    Prince George's County

    Minnesota

    Hennepin County

    Mississippi

    Jackson

    Nebraska

    Hall County
    Sarpy County

    New Jersey

    Middlesex County
    Newark
    Ocean County
    Union County

    New Mexico

    Bernalillo County
    New Mexico County Jails
    San Miguel

    Nevada

    Washoe County

    New York

    Albany
    Franklin County
    Ithaca
    Nassau County
    New York City
    Omondaga County
    St. Lawrence County
    Wayne County

    Oregon

    Baker County
    Clackamas County
    Clatsop County
    Coos County
    Crook County
    Curry County
    Deschutes County
    Douglas County
    Gilliam County
    Grant County
    Hood River County
    Jackson County
    Jefferson County
    Josephine County
    Lane Countyn
    Lincoln County
    Linn County
    Malheur County
    Marion County
    Marlon County
    Multnomah County
    Polk County
    Sherman County
    Springfield
    Tillamok County
    Umatilla County
    Union County
    Wallowa County
    Wasco County
    Washington County
    Wheeler County
    Yamhill County

    Pennsylvania

    Bradford County
    Bucks County
    Butler County
    Chester County
    Clarion County
    Delaware County
    Eerie County
    Franklin County
    Lebanon County
    Lehigh County
    Lycoming County
    Montgomery County
    Montour County
    Perry County
    Philadelphia
    Pike County
    Westmoreland County

    Rhode Island

    Providence, Rhode Island
    Rhode Island Department of Corrections

    Virginia

    Arlington County
    Chesterfield County
    Fairfax County

    Vermont

    Burlington
    Montpelier
    Winooski

    Washington

    Chelan County
    Clallam County
    Clark County
    Cowlitz County
    Franklin County
    Jefferson County
    King County
    Kitsap County
    Pierce County
    San Juan County
    Skagit County
    Snohomish County
    Spokane County
    Seattle
    Thurston County
    Walla Walla County
    Wallowa County
    Whatcom County
    Yakima County

    Zombieguy1987CYDdharta
  • MayCaesar said:
    @CYDdharta

    You have a potato soup in your head, unable to parse simple concepts.

    Your wall will not help with stopping tunneling in any way. Its aim is to help with the on-the-surface passage, and that, indeed, demonstrably can be overcome by investing $4 into it.

    I do not care about the Congress; most of the people there are after votes, not solutions.

    No .  But since that's about the only argument about how the wall would be "defeated' in this discussion, that must be what you're talking about.  If not, then you should say what you mean.
    Zombieguy1987
  • I would say it is. If it can be managed like the Berlin wall, though costly, it may work.

    Here’s the problem though. Comparing the Berlin Wall to US-Mexico Wall is a bad comparison 

    One wall was meant for a single city

    Another is for 1,950 miles of land

    Otherwise, I cannot see how to solve the problem with the illegals crossing into our country.

    Reform how they come in legally... Make it so it's not very long, so they don't have a good reason to come in illegally

    https://www.google.com/search?q=victims+of+religion&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=x&ved=0ahukewihu9jugorfahwkmeakhbtib00q_auidigb&biw=1920&bih=963&safe=active

    For the first time since 2009, the Carolina Hurricanes will be playing for the Stanley Cup! 

    Repealing the Second Amendment is the first step to Totalitarianism, and it needs to be prevented to protect our freedom 

    http://www.atheistrepublic.com/
  • CYDdharta said:
    @CYDdharta " In addition, by-and-large, Hispanics settle near the US-Mexican border, creating a border land of divided loyalties like Kashmir and Gaza"

    Also @CYDdharta "They claim asylum and disappear into a sanctuary city "

    So which one is it? Or does it change based on what narrative you want to tell?

    There is no difference.  You do realize that most of the sanctuary cities are down by the border, right?
    Are you serious? There isn't a single sanctuary City, county, or state law in all of Texas or Arizona.


    So what's your point?  Even using your source, half of the STATES along the border are sanctuary STATES.

    And you're still wrong about the other states.

    • Arizona

    • Chandler, AZ               (Added 5/30/07, Congressional Research Service Report, 2006. The city disputes its listing. )

    • Mesa, AZ                    (Added 10-18-09, Sources: Judicial Watch; East Valley Tribune article,1-4-2008)*

    • Prescott Valley, AZ     Added 4-5-17, Source:  Immigration status will be ignored, local police say, by Scott Orr, The Daily Courier, 4-2-17. 8-1-18 Town Manager disputes listing via email. To date the town manager has not responded to my 8-2-18 email request for a copy of the Town's illegal alien policy evidencing its cooperation with DHS.
    • Phoenix, AZ
    • South Tucson, AZ        (Added 10-13-15, Source: 10-8-14 DHS DDO Report)
    • Tucson, A Z                (Added 11-12-07, Source: 11-11-07 story by Brady McCombs, Arizona Daily Star. See note below.)

        Texas
    • Austin, TX                Added 2007, Sources: CRS report; 'Freedom city'? Going beyond 'sanctuary,' Austin, Texas, vows to curtail arrestss, By Jaweek Kaleem, LA Times, 6-19-18
    • Baytown, TX            (6-13-07 Local reader observation;  12-9-15 Note: The City of Baytown disputes it's listing as a sanctuary. Status is currently under review.)
    • Brownsville, TX
    • Channelview, TX      (6-13-07 Local reader observation)
    • Denton, TX
    • Dallas, TX
    • Dallas Co., TX         Added 8-2-16, Source: 10-8-14 DHS DDO Report; Dallas County passes resolution welcoming unauthorized immigrants, Dallas News, 2-7-17.
    • El Cenizo, TX          (6-13-07 Congressional Research Service)
    • Ft. Worth, TX
    • Houston, TX            (Congressional Research Service)
    • Katy, TX                 (Congressional Research Service)
    • Laredo, TX             (Entry added in 2007. Source added 7-25-15   Breitbart.com article by Brandon Darby, 7-6-15, regarding Laredo PD critical of officers calling Border Patrol. )
    • Mcallen, TX
    • Port Arthur, TX       Added 6-13-07 Reader/resident observation.
    • Rockwell, TX          Added 8-22-18, Source: Victim family member testimony as to local enforcement policy.
    • Travis Co., TX        Added 10-13-15, Source: 10-8-14 DHS DDO Report; and Houston Chronicle article by Mike Ward, 1-23-17
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 446 Pts
    edited January 23
    @CYDdharta ; https://cis.org/Map-Sanctuary-Cities-Counties-and-States

    Massive difference between a state preventing ice from taking illegals at all, and just deciding not to use it's state jails as a place where Ice can put their detainees. That is state property paid via state taxes and the federal government doesn't have the jurisdiction to use them without consent, as in the case with new Mexico.

    Your original point is still vastly wrong as most sanctuary cities are not on the border, not even 10% are. So do migrants by-and-large settle on the border of disappear into sanctuary cities?
    CYDdhartaZombieguy1987
  • @CYDdharta ; https://cis.org/Map-Sanctuary-Cities-Counties-and-States

    Massive difference between a state preventing ice from taking illegals at all, and just deciding not to use it's state jails as a place where Ice can put their detainees. That is state property paid via state taxes and the federal government doesn't have the jurisdiction to use them without consent, as in the case with new Mexico.

    Your original point is still vastly wrong as most sanctuary cities are not on the border, not even 10% are. So do migrants by-and-large settle on the border of disappear into sanctuary cities?

    Those may be the only cities (states, counties, etc...) that have official sanctuary policies, but there are many, many areas that have implemented unofficial policies that are just as bad as those official policies. 

      An informal sanctuary policy is an 'unwritten' policy that exists but is not formally documented on paper. An informal sanctuary policy might be by oral, handshake, or even unspoken understandings or agreements.

      None-the-less, an informal sanctuary policy is sanctioned by a local government authority and implemented by its public employees (administrative, service, and or safety forces).  Informal sanctuary policies are more difficult to document since no public record exists.  Informal sanctuary policies however can be evidenced in other ways.  

         A local government's (e.g., township, village, city, or county) interaction with illegal aliens can evidence an unwritten sanctuary policy.  For example, does a police department contact Immigration and Customs enforcement (ICE) if they encounter illegal aliens after a traffic stop or criminal arrest? Are illegal aliens simply released after the traffic stop or time spent in the local jail? Are criminal charges dropped to help the illegal alien from being taken into custody by ICE?     Statements and actions by public official can indicate a community's unwritten policy too.  Did a mayor of a town hire illegal alien day laborers for a city project?  Does a mayor, city administrator, or other city official complain to the press that illegal aliens in their community should not be subject to raids or arrests by ICE?  Does a city council adopt a resolution in opposition to the enforcement of U.S. immigration laws? Does the city have a day-labor hiring center for the benefit of non-citizens? These actions and statements are indicators that an informal (unwritten) sanctuary policy may exist in a community.   

    And, even ignoring that, you're still wrong even according to YOUR OWN SOURCE.  Half of the STATES on the border are sanctuary STATES.  Obviously every CITY in those STATES are SANCTUARY CITIES.

    Applesauce
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 446 Pts
    edited January 23
    @CYDdharta again look at new Mexico's state law that qualifies them as a sanctuary state. Do you think the federal government should override states rights and use their prisons for federal affairs? 

    Nobody is disappearing in New Mexico. The federal government is allowed to take any illegal immigrants they want into custody there. ICE can do literally everything except put detainees in state prisons. So disappearing can only happen in 1/4 states. Even then Texas and Arizona make up more than 2/3 of the border and they aren't sanctuaries. Since New Mexico doesn't do anything to protect illegals are you trying to tell me that by-and-large all immigrants are living on the California border? Or maybe they are spreading into the Northeast and Northeast?

    You see the word sanctuary and get instantly triggered. I guess you believe anything that is sanctuary is trying to kill ICE and putting illegals in mansions with armed guards. You clearly have no clue how many different laws can label a place as sanctuary. I would think you would support new Mexico's state rights not to have the federal government tell them how to spend their money. I guess you only care about states rights when it benefits you. Click on the bubbles in my source. Read the laws. Educate yourself.

    Even if illegals were all living in sanctuary cities on the border then why do you care? Aren't the sanctuary cities formed by the libtards so only they are getting murdered and raped and losing their jobs. Here's another chance for you to stick it to those libtards. Or maybe you realize that illegals actually spread out through a lot of the country.
    Zombieguy1987
  • It has always seemed weird to me that the immigration laws at large are a product of the federal government, and not the state governments. Or, better yet, individual populated points, as (to some extent) it works in Switzerland.

    El Paso wants a wall? Feel free to surround yourself with a wall. Chicago does not want a wall? Then go away, budget leeches, and waste your own money on your own territory.

    Let us introduce strict border control in each city. This way we will certainly make sure that illegal immigrants will not get far. Too inconvenient? Oh, I am sorry, I thought convenience was secondary to safety. 
    Zombieguy1987WordsMatterCYDdharta
  • @TKDB ;


     I have to apologize I somehow feel I crushed your cookies in your lunch box by saying a border fence is an act of greed.

    The fence at the White house is ornamental part of the White House décor and has a visual eye pleasing quality. Yes it is a parameter identification, but….. it is hardly security in any way, shape, or form in whole truth.

    Military Fencing, what military there is only Congressional/Presidential Armed Force and that fence is more to keep recruits inside a confided space as they tend to get restless at night. Again it is a parameter marker, I feel confident it is the fire pisser kept inside the fence that are being held and not the fools who wonder in. Speaking as just another fool who has been asked to wonder in from time to time. A past recipient of low bit work.  


    As for prisons, detention centers for the short term, most I have seen have many fences not one fence, and they keep people inside not outside. I’m not sure but I think it’s is the convicts inside the fence that keeps the people out of prison, and not the fencing around them. So isn't that one kind of agreeing with me?

    Build fences around all states it is the result of use of Eminent domain that dictates the action of the United States here, and its used to acquire legal permission that screws with the open abuse.

    So now we are back to the question why are legislators amending constitutional united state, with states of legislation that are not united, and are meant to be set on independence not constitution? It has been going on for a long time and it is simply ineffective. Really we are delving into plea bargain weight which is a different state of the union.



  • Another big win for walls this week. Last week we had 300+ tunnel under wall in what you could hardly describe as a tunnel. This week we have 100+ climb over the wall (18ft) with a ladder. Just 3 miles away from a legal port of entry, and to put the Cherry on the cake, a border patrol agent just sat in his car and watched the whole thing.

    https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/border-issues/2019/01/23/us-mexico-border-migrants-use-ladder-scale-wall-near-yuma-san-luis-cbp-asylum-seekers/2659930002/

    How can a wall possibly be effective when backup would presumably be near by, at most about 6 minutes away, and when the ladder is on the wall they just have to sit there and watch.
    Zombieguy1987ApplesauceMayCaesarCYDdharta
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 196 Pts
    edited January 24
    Another big win for walls this week. Last week we had 300+ tunnel under wall in what you could hardly describe as a tunnel. This week we have 100+ climb over the wall (18ft) with a ladder. Just 3 miles away from a legal port of entry, and to put the Cherry on the cake, a border patrol agent just sat in his car and watched the whole thing.

    https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/border-issues/2019/01/23/us-mexico-border-migrants-use-ladder-scale-wall-near-yuma-san-luis-cbp-asylum-seekers/2659930002/

    How can a wall possibly be effective when backup would presumably be near by, at most about 6 minutes away, and when the ladder is on the wall they just have to sit there and watch.
    all you are saying is that walls/fences that are already in place don't work, and given what I have seen of some of them there's no wonder why.  How much do you know about the prototypes for the new wall?  How far underground will they go?  Isn't that the whole reason Trump wants new walls because the old ones don't work?  Isn't it common to replace old out dated things that no longer work with a modern version that is better?  One bad agent means they all are?
    You obviously didn't give your post much thought, you may wish to in the future. "WordsMatter"
    Zombieguy1987CYDdharta
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 446 Pts
    edited January 24
    @Applesauce the only difference a new wall would have made here is if a ladder physically could not stand against it. How do you know he's a bad agent? Maybe one man shouldn't try to take on a hundred immigrants at once? Maybe their weren't people to spare at the legal port of entry? Smugglers learned a lesson that you put enough illegals in at the same spot at the same time and the agents can't do much. There isn't even a design for the wall. Trump looked at options sure, but even during the shutdown he's said it will be different things. You want me to buy a product when I can't know what it is? Or is comparing the effectiveness of two walls apples and oranges? So maybe it's not prudent to use the Berlin and Israeli walls as proof that a border wall will be effective.
    CYDdhartaZombieguy1987
  • @WordsMatter ;

    Part of the issue is not to make entry illegal by require specifications of registration. Without proper registration specification authorities at a border can simple place unauthorized admission from Mexico back. We are dealing with independent people who are not braking a united states law, yet. By disobeying a rule which can lead to a more serious crime of longer detentions and full background investigation. The safety of legal entries from Mexico can be granted a common defense to their general welfare. Constitutional separation is a common defense to promote judicial efficacies, not create inefficient congestion by use of law.    


    A wall/fence is nothing but a way to ignore an unconstitutional use of law by lack of understanding. A wall/fence is an obstacle to slow not stop people. Rivers and canals are a translation made on a law of nature set against the same basic principle.  
    WordsMatterZombieguy1987CYDdharta
  • TKDBTKDB 102 Pts
    The real issue isn't with the border wall, or the border security.

    The issue is with those immigrants who decide to come into the United States of America.

    The other issues, are the 300 sanctuary cities, thar give sanctuary to those illegal immigrants, along with the various businesses that utilize those illegal immigrants to do work for them.

    How do those 300 sanctuary cities get to legally give the 11-22 illegal immigrants sanctuary in the very face of the a country based on laws? 

    So what does the rest of the country do to react to those two situations?

    Trying to get funding for the border wall, and to better the security for the border wall?

    So in a sense, the entire country is dealing with a second "Cold War" starring, the 11-22 illegal immigrants already in tne United States, those 300 sanctuary cities, the business utilizing those illegal immigrants, the Border wall, border wall security, ICE, and the continuing influx of the illegal immigrants who came into the United States yesterday, and today, and the crimes that have been committed by the illegal immigrants, and the families who deal with those tragedies? 

    Why are some in country purposefully hurting the rest of the country, by apparently placing those millions of illegal immigrants above the rest of the country? 

    Hence the (second Cold War) reference?

    We are a country of immigrants, but immigrants who all went through the proper legal channels to become citizens of the United States.

    And to disregard that process is the flaw that has and is being exposed by those 11-22 illegal immigrants who are already in the country illegally, and who continue to come into the United States illegally. 

    The laws in our country are in trouble, and I dont get why some are harassing those laws, for the sake of the illegal immigrants, at a cost to the rest of the citizens themselves, day in, and day out, crime after crime?

    The crimes that have been committed by those illegal immigrants, their committed crimes, are worth it, to they, being in, the United States illegally? 

    Because if some want to protest the Border Wall, why then, aren't the sanctuary city creators, taking to the streets, and protesting the crimes committed by the illegal immigrants, that have been given sanctuary within the very cities that they are living in themselves? 

    A guess, that's not how it works? The sanctuary city creators aren't maybe going to protest the crimes committed by those illegal immigrants, right?

    Giving sanctuary to an illegal immigrant, is maybe or apparently, more important than the crimes, that they have maybe committed, right? 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1451 Pts
    edited January 24
    @Applesauce

    I do not think Trump even remotely realizes what a wall he actually wants would cost. In human history before, walls have never been used to prevent a physical entry into a country; not a single time. Even Berlin Wall worked in conjunction with multiple layers of protection, the most essential ones being a line of sniper outposts.
    The purpose of most walls in human history was to make the location more defensible in case of a military conflict. They had nothing to do with stopping random people from coming in.

    Walls have been used to discourage less intent trespassers, but you can bet that people that abandon everything they own and walk towards another country with a sack on their back are intent enough to get some basic equipment in order to pass this pitiful obstacle.

    A wall that would stop everyone who wants to cross it across the entire border... Why, I am not sure if this engineering challenge is even solvable with our current level of technology, in a way that will make the wall affordable to even the wealthiest nation in the world.

    The wall Trump is trying to fund now is laughable. I passed harder obstacles when I was a naughty 8 years old kid, constantly getting in trouble.
    CYDdhartaZombieguy1987
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1061 Pts
    edited January 24
    MayCaesar said:
    @Applesauce

    I do not think Trump even remotely realizes what a wall he actually wants would cost. In human history before, walls have never been used to prevent a physical entry into a country; not a single time. Even Berlin Wall worked in conjunction with multiple layers of protection, the most essential ones being a line of sniper outposts.
    The purpose of most walls in human history was to make the location more defensible in case of a military conflict. They had nothing to do with stopping random people from coming in.

    Walls have been used to discourage less intent trespassers, but you can bet that people that abandon everything they own and walk towards another country with a sack on their back are intent enough to get some basic equipment in order to pass this pitiful obstacle.

    A wall that would stop everyone who wants to cross it across the entire border... Why, I am not sure if this engineering challenge is even solvable with our current level of technology, in a way that will make the wall affordable to even the wealthiest nation in the world.

    The wall Trump is trying to fund now is laughable. I passed harder obstacles when I was a naughty 8 years old kid, constantly getting in trouble.

    Hmmm, lets see just what Trump is asking for



    The current walls, such as they are, have been quite effective in the areas where they have already been built.  And, of course, that isn't the only security measure being implemented. 
  • TKDBTKDB 102 Pts
    @MayCaesar

    @CYDdharta

    @Zombieguy1987

    @Applesauce

    @WordsMatter

    Have any comments for the below?

    The real issue isn't with the border wall, or the border security.

    The issue is with those immigrants who decide to come into the United States of America.

    The other issues, are the 300 sanctuary cities, thar give sanctuary to those illegal immigrants, along with the various businesses that utilize those illegal immigrants to do work for them.

    How do those 300 sanctuary cities get to legally give the 11-22 illegal immigrants sanctuary in the very face of the a country based on laws? 

    So what does the rest of the country do to react to those two situations?

    Trying to get funding for the border wall, and to better the security for the border wall?

    So in a sense, the entire country is dealing with a second "Cold War" starring, the 11-22 illegal immigrants already in tne United States, those 300 sanctuary cities, the business utilizing those illegal immigrants, the Border wall, border wall security, ICE, and the continuing influx of the illegal immigrants who came into the United States yesterday, and today, and the crimes that have been committed by the illegal immigrants, and the families who deal with those tragedies? 

    Why are some in country purposefully hurting the rest of the country, by apparently placing those millions of illegal immigrants above the rest of the country? 

    Hence the (second Cold War) reference?

    We are a country of immigrants, but immigrants who all went through the proper legal channels to become citizens of the United States.

    And to disregard that process is the flaw that has and is being exposed by those 11-22 illegal immigrants who are already in the country illegally, and who continue to come into the United States illegally. 

    The laws in our country are in trouble, and I dont get why some are harassing those laws, for the sake of the illegal immigrants, at a cost to the rest of the citizens themselves, day in, and day out, crime after crime?

    The crimes that have been committed by those illegal immigrants, their committed crimes, are worth it, to they, being in, the United States illegally? 

    Because if some want to protest the Border Wall, why then, aren't the sanctuary city creators, taking to the streets, and protesting the crimes committed by the illegal immigrants, that have been given sanctuary within the very cities that they are living in themselves? 

    A guess, that's not how it works? The sanctuary city creators aren't maybe going to protest the crimes committed by those illegal immigrants, right?

    Giving sanctuary to an illegal immigrant, is maybe or apparently, more important than the crimes, that they have maybe committed, right?  
    Zombieguy1987
  • Zombieguy1987CYDdharta
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 196 Pts
    edited January 24
    @Applesauce the only difference a new wall would have made here is if a ladder physically could not stand against it. How do you know he's a bad agent? Maybe one man shouldn't try to take on a hundred immigrants at once? Maybe their weren't people to spare at the legal port of entry? Smugglers learned a lesson that you put enough illegals in at the same spot at the same time and the agents can't do much. There isn't even a design for the wall. Trump looked at options sure, but even during the shutdown he's said it will be different things. You want me to buy a product when I can't know what it is? Or is comparing the effectiveness of two walls apples and oranges? So maybe it's not prudent to use the Berlin and Israeli walls as proof that a border wall will be effective.
    have you looked at the tests who did them on the prototypes?
    if he just sat there and watched does that sound like a good agent to you?  you didn't say he reported it, filmed it, called for assistance etc, did you?  do you think this wall wouldn't be manned, patrolled, have sensors etc?
    You want me to buy a product when I can't know what it is?
    it worked for Obama care.....

    So you admit you don't know what the wall would be but yet you know it won't work, even though you don't know what it is or what it could be you just know it wouldn't work, gotcha.
    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
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