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On the supremacy of Nordic countries

Debate Information

It is very common nowadays to hear, especially from proponents of statism and interventionism, that the higher the taxes and the heavier the social spending in the country, the better off the people are.

It is especially common to hear the mention of the so-called "Nordic model", featured in such countries as Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Iceland. In this model, the state heavily controls the resource redistribution, imposes harsh limitations on exchange of goods and services, gives a lot of bargaining power to labor unions and to individual employees, and partially or entirely nationalizes a few economical sectors, namely healthcare and education.



Now, do not get me wrong: these are great countries to live in, very prosperous, very stable, very safe. People at large enjoy pretty care-free lives, have a lot of social freedoms, get the benefit of being able to freely travel around the European Union and having a visa-free entry to nearly all developed countries - and those who do want to get more out of life and earn a lot of money, still can do that, even if not as easily as in freer-market economies.

I have a problem, however, with the widespread notion that people in those nations are happier than in other First World countries. This notion is constantly perpetrated by so-called "happiness indexes", which stably put these countries at the top of the ranking. Let's take, for example, the 2018 Happiness Index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2018_report):
  1. Finland
  2. Norway
  3. Denmark
  4. Iceland
  5. Switzerland
  6. Netherlands
  7. Canada
  8. New Zealand
  9. Sweden
  10. Australia
  11. Israel
  12. Austria
  13. Costa Rica
  14. Ireland
  15. Germany
  16. Belgium
  17. Luxembourg
  18. United States
  19. United Kingdom
  20. United Arab Emirates
After a very brief glance, many questions arise. For example, is Israel, with its ethnic and religious tensions and constant terrorist attacks and wars, really among the happiest nations? Is poor Costa Rica really so happy? Does happiness of people living in UAE only apply to men, or to everyone?

Let's not dwell on these questions and get to the crux of the topic. All 5 of the Nordic countries are among the top-10, 4 of them leading in the ranking. Finland in particular is considered the happiest nation on Earth.



Is this really true? Let us compare Finland against the US, simply because the related data is much easier to find. We will consider a few unrelated statistics.



GDP per capita, $:
Source: Google
Finland: 45,703
USA: 59,532
Winner: USA

Homicide rate (per 100,000):
Source: Google
Finland: 1.1
USA: 4.9
Winner: Finland

Number of universities in top-200 worldwide (per 10,000,000 people):
Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/page/local/us-news-global-top-500-universities/1409/
Finland: 1.82
USA: 2.27
Winner: USA

Average life expectancy (years):
Source: Google
Finland: 81.78
USA: 78.69
Winner: Finland

Number of mass shooting victims (per 1,000,000 people, 2000-2014):
Source: Google
Finland: 3.4
USA: 1.5
Winner: USA

Infant mortality rate (per 1,000 births):
Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
Finland: 2.5
USA: 5.8
Winner: Finland

External debt as % of GDP:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
Finland: 196
USA: 115
Winner: USA

Prevalence of opiates use, %:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_prevalence_of_opiates_use
Finland: 0.1
USA: 1.6
Winner: Finland

Unemployment rate, %:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate
Finland: 7.2
USA: 3.9
Winner: USA

Healthcare spending per country, % of GDP:
Source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries
Finland: 8.9
USA: 17.6
Winner: Finland

We can clearly see that it is impossible to pick a single winner based on the statistics alone, and each country has a lot of ones and zeros in this match-up.



Here is where it gets interesting. Let us move on from abstract statistics and ask a real life question:
Which country do people prefer?
I cannot think of a better way to measure this than to compare immigration flows in between these countries. Simply speaking, if people overall prefer Finland over the US, then a larger fraction of Americans will want to move to Finland, than the fraction of Finnish who want to move to the US. And vice versa. Which of these two is actually the case? Let us look here:

http://www.fulbright.fi/sites/default/files/Liitetiedostot/Suomeen-opiskelemaan/americans-in-finland-article.pdf
http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/files/pdf/artikkelit/finns_abroad_-_a_short_history_of_finnish_emigration.pdf

From the first link, we find that in 2009, 3,907 US-born people lived in Finland.
From the second link, we find that in 2003, 45,000 Finland-born people lived in the US

Now, absolute numbers do not say much, so let us look at this numbers relative to the population. 

Population (millions):
Source: Google
Finland: 5.503
USA: 325.7

Total number of first generation immigrants (per million):
Source: see above
Finland->USA: 8,177
USA->Finland: 12

What we see here is a staggering difference:

A Finnish person is 681 times as likely to move to the US, as an American person to Finland.


It is pretty hard to fully comprehend this number. Let's visualise it the following way.
Suppose you have one flight ticket from the US to Finland, and another from Finland to the US. You are willing to sell them to anyone who wants to move permanently (let's forget about tourism and business trips for simplicity's sake). You are just walking around, giving the offer to different people. And let's assume that it is your full-time job, that is you are doing it 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Let's assume you find the buyer in Finland in 1 hour. At the same rate, in the US you will only find a buyer in 17 weeks and 2 days. In Finland you will be able to sell over 2,000 such tickets in a year; in the US, only 3.

As we can see, compared to the reverse flow, Finnish people are literally fleeing the country in favor of the US.



The question I want to ask in conclusion is this: if Finland is the happiest nation on Earth, while the US barely makes it into top-20 - then why is it that, when it comes to the choice between the two, people prefer the US by a factor of many hundreds?



Zombieguy1987Oppolzer
  1. Live Poll

    Is Finland the happiest nation on Earth?

    5 votes
    1. Yes!
      20.00%
    2. No!
        0.00%
    3. Maybe.
      80.00%
    4. Finland doesn't exist.
        0.00%
  2. Live Poll

    Is Finland happier than the US?

    5 votes
    1. Yes!
      40.00%
    2. No!
        0.00%
    3. Maybe.
      60.00%
    4. Finland doesn't exist.
        0.00%
    5. US doesn't exist.
        0.00%
    6. Neither US nor Finland exists.
        0.00%
  3. Live Poll

    Assuming Finland is happier than the US - why do immigrants overwhelmingly prefer the US?

    5 votes
    1. Because they are stupid.
      60.00%
    2. Because they are masochists.
        0.00%
    3. They do not; your statistics is fake.
        0.00%
    4. Because the US has brainwashed them.
      40.00%
  4. Live Poll

    But seriously - why do immigrants prefer the US to Finland?

    5 votes
    1. The US offers better opportunities for growth.
      20.00%
    2. The US is more prosperous.
        0.00%
    3. The US is more welcoming towards immigrants.
        0.00%
    4. The US is more fun.
        0.00%
    5. None of the above.
      40.00%
    6. Some of the above.
      20.00%
    7. All of the above.
      20.00%
  5. Live Poll

    If you were to pick either the US or Finland to live, which one would you choose?

    5 votes
    1. Definitely the US!
      20.00%
    2. Definitely Finland!
      40.00%
    3. Probably the US.
      20.00%
    4. Probably Finland.
        0.00%
    5. Uncertain.
      20.00%
    6. Finland doesn't exist, so I don't have much choice.
        0.00%
    7. The US doesn't exist, so I don't have much choice.
        0.00%
    8. Neither exists. What are you smoking, dude? I want some of that.
        0.00%



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    Arguments


  • OppolzerOppolzer 191 Pts   -  
    It’s surprising to hear that Finland is the “happiest” nation on Earth, considering how they determined that conclusion.

    “Happiness” is a concept, and it’s different for the individual, depending on how you interpret things. You cannot survey happiness and expect it to be completely ingenuous. Therefore, the UN report calculated “happiness” on five premises: GDP per capita, freedom, trust and generosity, healthy life expectancy, and perception of corruption.

    It’s manifest that these premises are relatively arbitrary. I find that these determining measurements are biased and particularly subjective. The underlying problem is that the bases they determined “happiness” on is abstract and cannot be objectively measured. It’s misleading to call it the “World Happiness Report.”

    In all things, I feel that the World Happiness Report is immaterial. It’s evident that some countries are more developed than others, but it seems unrealistic to pinpoint each country with a ranking number. It essentially establishes which countries are “better” than others, which is biased in itself.
    Zombieguy1987MayCaesarpiloteer
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5971 Pts   -  
    @Oppolzer

    I would say that one can develop a certain metric of the overall happiness nonetheless. For example, it is clear that as a whole North Korea is much less happy a country than South Korea.

    Of course, such a metric would not apply to every single individual, nor would it be objective. For one, "happiness" itself is a somewhat subjective concept, as different people have different thresholds for emotional states that separate happiness from simply being content.

    I think, rather than "Happiness Index", something more concrete should be measured when evaluating the predominant emotional state in different societies. I indirectly proposed comparison of immigration flows between two country as a practical measure of which country people themselves would rather choose, but that still is prone to many side effects skewing the result. For example, immigration flows into Japan are relatively small, while Japan itself is one of the most prosperous and developed countries on Earth - Japanese immigration policies, coupled with the isolation of their society, and a very high-context collectivist culture, make it very difficult for immigrants to integrate into the society.

    I would propose a survey with questions such as:

    "What goals do you have for 2019?"
    "What major accomplishments have you had in the last 10 years of your life?"
    "If you could move to any country permanently right now, would you? If so, where?"
    "If you could implement 5 major policy changes in your country, what would they be?"
    "How many times a month do you consciously think about the possibility of being robbed?"

    This way we could gain a pretty deep insight into people's feelings and thoughts. We could say, "Okay, in Russia people have to constantly think about being robbed by their fellow countrymates. That can't contribute to their happiness". Or, "Aha, in the UK people set very ambitious goals for themselves. This means that they are confident in their future success, and that contributes to happiness". Perhaps it would not lead to a proper numerical ranking, but certain verbal characterization of the general level of happiness in a given society would be possible.
    Zombieguy1987Oppolzer
  • OppolzerOppolzer 191 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    I agree with you, and I may have exaggerated my argument. But in a general sense, the report seemed to imply that you have to be from a culture that’s economically developed, democratic, selfless, long-living, and materialistic. Therefore, countries following Eastern cultures aren’t high in the ranking. A comparison would be Bhutan and Saudi Arabia. Bhutan claims to be the only country in the world that considers Gross National Happiness over GDP. This implies that Bhutan measures prosperity by gauging their happiness levels, not the GDP. Bhutan figures #97 in the World Happiness Report. South Arabia, on the other hand, is rich and developed but has lack of freedom, significant income inequality, public executions, and the devoid rule of law. Saudi Arabia figures #33 in the World Happiness Report.

    The World Happiness Report isn’t completely useless, but I don’t understand the purpose. We all know which countries are considered “better” in a general sense, but that doesn’t justify the need for an assigned ranking. As you mentioned, it’s clear that South Korea would be happier than North Korea, but that’s generally based on their living conditions.

    I agree with your survey questions because you can evaluate one’s own opinions, experiences, and personal goals. They’re specific questions. Therefore you will most likely receive specific answers, as opposed to something ambiguous and difficult to pinpoint.
    MayCaesarZombieguy1987
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 493 Pts   -   edited January 2019
    One thing you fail to mention is cultural influences. These Nordic countries have extremely entrenched cultural traditions. You accurately point out that people aren't moving to these countries, that only further contributes to their happiness. The population is very homogenous, there are few outsiders and little diversity within the population. The population shares a lot of values and behaviors.

    Compare that to the US and the cultural differences are Stark. Here there are comparatively huge populations that differ in citizenship status, race, ethnicity, religion, education. The rural vs City divide is quite large. Our politics have become insanely partisan in comparison and with the rise of the tea party movement and the Democratic socialists it's only getting more tension. Even the geography has an impact on differing views across the US. With greater physical distances can come with greater differences in values and practices in populations. All of Europe, including the Nordic countries can fit in the lower 48 almost twice. 

    All of these factors can increase tension within the population in the US. It's a very diverse country, probably the most diverse country on the planet, which creates a lot of opportunities for tension and disagreements. Whereas the Nordic countries are much smaller with less people, most people have very old ties to the country and are more homogenous in ethnicity, religion, in politics relative to the US, and overall culture.

    I would think it's something similar in UAE case but I don't know much about that country. Happiness is dependent on so many things, even Africans without electricity that break stones into the gravel for a living can be very happy people.

    There have been many psychology studies on happiness. One has found that a year after the major event, a quadriplegic and a lottery winner report similar levels of happiness. When you have less choices vs more you tend to be happier with the decision you made i.e. 3 flavors of ice cream to pick from versus 23, because it's more difficult to worry if you made the wrong choice and that you would have been happier with something else.

    Happiness with get 'artificially' synthesized by the brain. A study was done where people would rank the aesthetic quality of paintings. Afterwards they were given the choice of getting to keep either painting 3 or 4. Some time later they were asked to rerank the photos. Whichever one they chose got ranked slightly higher while while the one they passed up got ranked significantly lower. The craziest part of the study to eliminate bias, was they found the same results in amnesia patients who had absolutely no recollection of passing up on a painting at all.

    Freedom is the friends of natural happiness because it allows people to make choices. However freedom is the enemy of synthetic happiness because our psychological immune system works best when we are stuck and have no options or choices.

    This could be another factor why UAE is ranked so high. In the US we have tons of freedom but that creates a large number of people who can constantly fret over making the wrong choice somewhere and wondering "what if" or be paralyzed with fear and unable to commit to something because they want to keep their options open and not make the wrong choice in the future.

    I find happiness extremely difficult to measure on anything the scale of an entire country. However from studies on small scales there are very surprising and counterintuitive results like the quadriplegic vs lottery winner. So I can believe Finland is happier than the US not because of any hard measurable statistics but for cultural reasons and unconscious psychological tricks. But if I were to make a bet I would say the difference in happiness wouldn't actually differ much between natives or long time residents of any two countries.

    Another potential cultural factor I just thought of would be the way people are raised in those cultures to express their feelings. I know in Pakistan many many of the mental illnesses that exist in America do not exist their. They have no concept of them. Also these happiness studies are surveys where participants have to self report. Self reported data is in the lower half of data you want for a study. People lie all the time in self reported studies. Maybe in Finland the culture ingrains into people the idea that they always need to say they are happier than they really are. No clue if that's the case just spit balling. But it's interesting that in America when someone asks how you are doing it's considered polite to give a neutral or positive response even if you are really upset. That can have an effect on the way you would reply to a happiness question on a survey.
    MayCaesarZombieguy1987
  • AmericanFurryBoyAmericanFurryBoy 531 Pts   -   edited January 2019
    It works in these countries because 1) these countries are all small and aren’t global players with a powerful reputation to maintain so their military’s are smaller, and 2) the people that populate these counties seem to be a lot more civil than the citizens of the US.
    Zombieguy1987
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • Zombieguy1987Zombieguy1987 471 Pts   -  
    It works in these countries because 1) these countries are all small and aren’t global players with a powerful reputation to maintain so their military’s are smaller, and 2) the people that populate these counties seem to be a lot more civil than the citizens of the US.

    And they don't have to deal politicians like Trump or Clintion

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5971 Pts   -   edited February 2019
    @WordsMatter

    This is a very solid argument, and I see your point. However, I would challenge it by questioning whether having little diversity of values and behaviors leads to happiness.

    In general, I like to make a distinction between the terms "happiness" and "satisfaction". Roughly I would define them as:
    Happiness: a state of elevated psychology and energetic optimism.
    Satisfaction: a state of psychological stability and being at peace.
    In a way, these terms are somewhat incompatible. When you are happy, you cannot be satisfied, as you are constantly looking forward; you are not satisfied with what you have right now, and you are ecstatic about the expectation that tomorrow you will have a better life than today. When you are satisfied, on the other hand, you are not looking forward to tomorrow: you do not expect tomorrow to be better than today, and, instead, you are relaxed and maybe somewhat apathic, quietly and peacefully enjoying the stability in your life.

    I would characterise myself as a very happy, and a very unsatisfied person. I love this life, I always look forward to tomorrow, and almost every second I am having a blast in my life. However, I always need new experiences, new information, new intellectual and sensational food. I am never content with just sitting around, quietly enjoying life: I want more out of it.

    So perhaps it would be more reasonable to say that the level of satisfaction is very high in countries with low diversity, such as Nordic countries, Japan, etc. People just go about their business, they conform with the society without getting restless.
    While countries with higher diversity, such as the US, Canada, Australia, the UK or Switzerland, feature a high level of happiness. When the individual is not bound by societal expectations and limitations, they have the opportunity to truly pursue their most daring dreams. 

    As such, I would argue that, for example, to the average American the Nordic lifestyle could seem incredibly boring. The person would get restless. People here are not wired in a way that lets them be content with a stable, consistent lifestyle.
    On the other hand, to the average Nordic person the American lifestyle could seem very hectic. The person would get tired. There, people do not want the environment to change rapidly, to constantly face new situations and encounters. They want stability, routine.

    I think this reasoning can be extended to your notion about the dual nature of freedom of choice. People in Japan or, say, Sweden are satisfied with having little choice, as that frees them from worry. On the other hand, people in the US or, say, Switzerland need to have a lot of choices, to be able to better fulfill their individual needs.

    Something I would also want to note is that these terms - happiness and satisfaction - require a certain frame of reference to be measurable. It is hard to say "I am happy" without providing a reference point. I could say, "I am happier than if X was the case". I can say, "I am happier than if I lived in North Korea". But can I say "I am happy" in some abstract way? I usually do, but I am not sure if it has any real meaning. What if I were given a time travel round trip to some alien civilization, that would be so much better than the society I am living in right now, that upon return I could not stand living here any more? Would it mean that I never were happy to begin with and was deceiving myself? Or does it mean that my standards have changed in a way that redefined what I see as "happiness"? I think it is a bit of the both.

    Finally, your last notion is a spot on. Something I noticed after moving to the US from Russia is that some seemingly minor things can have very noticeable major effects. Take a very simple thing: on the street I say, "Hi, how are you?", to a random stranger and smile - and the stranger says, "I'm fine, what about you?", with a smile as well. Sure, we might not really mean what we say, the smile might be fake, and we might forget about the encounter a few seconds later - however, doing this routinely rewires your brain. When you say "I am fine" a thousand times, even when you are not fine, your brain starts believing that, indeed, you are fine. And that affects how you really feel long-term.
    In Russia, smiling at a stranger is seen as creepy at best, or threatening/mocking at most. And this matter of affairs deeply affects people's psychology. People stop trusting each other, they see each other as a threat. As a consequence, as a whole, people are much more negative and pessimistic in their lives, than in the US.
    There is a joke about Finland, that Finnish people themselves like to tell.
    "What is the difference between an introvert, and an extrovert in Finland?".
    "In a conversation, the introvert looks at their own shoes, while the extrovert looks at their partner's shoes".
    Obviously such a drastic cultural difference can have long-term psychological effects that are hard to measure. People are so used to this behavior, that they take it for granted and do not even think about it - yet it strongly affect how people feel about their lives long-term.
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