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Does the doctrine of "Born Into Sin" make sense?
in Religion

Please convince me. Because I'm looking for the explanation regarding to this.



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  • I don't understand this either, and I am a Christian. I feel bad for not understanding. As salaam u alikum.
  • JawadiahmadJawadiahmad 25 Pts
    edited January 31
    @YeshuaBought Waalaikum ya akhi
  • @Jawadiahmad Yesua ehebek, ana eheb Yesua! :)
  • AlofRIAlofRI 153 Pts
    OH, YEAH! You can tell just looking at the little critters that they can't be trusted! They deal in Paregoric and other drugs and paraphernalia right from the start! You can tell, they come out as little slime-balls! Yep, can't trust'em!
    Ridiculous. ;-) 
  • Well, as we are all in sin, it does make sense.  We aren't born into salvation because salvation is a choice, and there are multiple verses supporting this.  So, while infants aren't immediately sinning, they are born un-saved and must make that choice to come out of a path that lead to condemnation and a path that leads to redemption.  Free will.  
    piloteer
  • I have never accepted the concept of responsibility by default. For example, where I grew up, everybody was talking about my responsibility before the nation that raised me. I always asked the same question: "Why should I be responsible for something I had no choice in?" I did not ask to be born there and be raised by that nation, did I? Nobody could ever give a satisfactory answer to this question.

    Same here. I am a sinner just because I was born? Well, okay, show me the contract I signed which states that I choose to be born in exchange for some sins I will have to wash myself of. If there is no such contract, then I do not owe anyone anything.
    JawadiahmadpiloteerPlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • @MayCaesar ; I can see where it makes sense when it comes to responsibility to your nation, but when it comes to sin it's more complex than being born with a ledger.  We are just born with a propensity to sin, and then the minute you sin, that's where you become wrong.  You are born into a life where you can sin, rather than, at creation, there was no way to sin.  
  • @SuperSith89

    But that works both ways. People make good and bad choices. Sometimes I make bad decisions (sin), sometimes I make good decisions. Sometimes I make a bad decision, thinking it is good at the time, and later realizing my mistake. Or sometimes I do something that feels wrong, but that makes sense from some perspective - and later it turns out that it was the best decision one could make in that situation.

    Why bad decisions should be assumed by default, while good decisions are expected to make up for them, and not the other way around, is not very clear to me.
  • @MayCaesar That's the part there, that second paragraph there.  The idea that you atone for sin by doing good deeds couldn't be more false, at least from a Protestant view.  Catholics and Mormons are two of the only denominations that believe otherwise.  Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast."  Now, the way to atone for sins is simply by asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus as your savior.  No amount of works get you to heaven now.   
  • @SuperSith89 ;So when you're not a believer than you're a sinner even when you're born? the definition of a sin is "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.". So what divine law and rules that exist when we have no faith and only basic human instinct?
    AlofRI
  • I think one reason the bible says we're born of sin is to drive home the message that we are all Gods children and we shouldn't judge others because of their supposed sins. The bible also says that if you're guilty of one sin, you're guilty of them all, but that doesn't mean you can't be forgiven for your sins. I think the real message here is, we are all equally guilty in Gods eyes, but if we embrace Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior, we will be forgiven and welcome into the kingdom of heaven. The concept of "being born of, or into sin" is really a concept of equality under God. That's my interpretation anyway. 
  • @SuperSith89

    Fair notion. But my point was that the interpretation of "born into sin" is inherently biased towards the negative view on people. Why not state the opposite? Why not say that people, rather, are born into virtue, but due to their flaws sometimes resort to sins? Why assume that people are inherently bad, but sometimes do good deeds - instead of assuming that people are inherently good, but sometimes do bad deeds?

    I am not religious, but I have always seen humans as fundamentally good. Every time someone commits a horrible act, you can always find some pain or unsatisfied need within them that manifested in them acting in this way. A person that is happy and has everything they need will never resort to actions that hurt themselves or others.

    Children tend to be very happy. Look at any child - they are always curious, always having fun, always trying different things. It is the pain we accumulate during growing up that makes us into individuals who perceive the world around them as hostile and dangerous.

    As such, I disagree with the premise that people are fundamentally sinners.
    AlofRI
  • Well, it makes sense if you are a follower of a religion that offers sin as part of its curriculum... It certainly makes sense if you're a priest/imam/rabbi, sin is your leverage. If you sell soap, you better tell your customer that they're dirty, right? 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • searsear 103 Pts
    The customary sequence in formal debate is to review the resolve and then define terms.

    The resolve:

    Does the doctrine of "Born Into Sin" make sense?

    What is "sin"?
    My Biblical consultant informs me "sin" means to fall short of divine perfection.
    If so, we are all sinners, IF our beliefs in divinity are accurate or relevant.

     BUT !!

    If not, if there is no divine, then there can be nothing divine we fall short of.

     BUT !!

    It is not necessary for there to be a god to conceptualize perfection.

      AND !!

    If / when we set the perfection bar high enough (superlative) it is not something to be achieved, but something merely to strive for.

    We needn't believe in a talking serpent, or a pregnant virgin for that.

    In broader context:
    the overall error here is to conflate religion with either god or reality. Religion is a belief system, a story, and in the case of Islam among others, a lifestyle. Not only is it not reality. It can't POSSIBLY be. The proof is the number of CONFLICTING religions on Earth. They can't possibly all be true.
  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    >The bible also says that if you're guilty of one sin, you're guilty of them all, but that doesn't mean you can't be forgiven for your sins.

    The Koran has the same idea when it says if you kill one person, you are guilty of killing all persons.

    The bible says explicitly that children are born sinless and do not inherit the sin of their parents.

    But since Adam, we are born into a sinful world, and born of sinful parents. In that sense, we are all born into sin. Sin being in this sense being, a sinful condition.

    My experience has been that atheist just don't want to consider the verses saying that newborns are innocent, and that guilt and sin are not transferred from parent to child.

    They emotionally prefer to be able to call Christianity unfair, even if doing so is untrue.
    Dee
  • DeeDee 251 Pts
    @ethang5


    Ethang says .........They emotionally prefer to be able to call Christianity unfair, even if doing so is untrue

    How could Atheists think such a thing?



  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    @Dee

    Ethang says .........They emotionally prefer to be able to call Christianity unfair, even if doing so is untrue

    >How could Atheists think such a thing?

    Only the stupid ones like you do.

    No one goes to Hell for not loving Jesus back. That is just your cynical atheist spin so as to avoid the truth.

    I don't have to spin your position. Know why? Because my argument is true, so I don't need fake mimes to pretend to be arguments for me.

    The smart atheists know Christian doctrine, even if they don't believe it. The Douchy ones like you post stupidity on subjects you are ignorant about.

    But why you mad bro? I didn't make you stupid. I only pointed it out.
    Dee
  • DeeDee 251 Pts
    edited March 4
    @ethang5

    Ethang loves Jesus, I’m happy for Ethang 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    Just like a liberal.

    All progressive tolerance for homosexuals, but get him angry and the worst insult he has is to call you gay.

    But there is nothing wrong with being gay the hypocrite will croak.

    Just posting insults doesn't move me. I know you are doing it because you're hurt, and like a spoiled child, you want to hurt me back.

    I'm not hurt and I don't care. Be as stupid as your atheism leads you.

    Now, just like the troll I called you, you're now following me around threads headlining your stupidity.

    But you will find out something about me. I'm not the theist you're used to insulting. With me, you get slapped back. You're shocked and angry. You will live.

    Stop talking about morality till you know something about it moron. This is a debate site. You are supposed to know why for the claims you make.

    But if you only want to be an idiot. I'll play with you. And I'll win, because all you have is childish taunts. I know my subject, and my education was real, not google mining.

    You are used to being an idiot here without resistance. Well bubba, those days are over.

    But unlike you, I will have substance too. Address the question moron. If you squint, you might be able to spark two of your brain cells.

    Why is murder immoral?
    Why is depriving someone of their right to live immoral?

    They are the same question you idiot.

    You are a douchebag troll, but that shouldn't stop you from addressing your claim.

    Why, Mr. More moral than God, is murder immoral?
    Dee
  • AlofRIAlofRI 153 Pts
    I'm gonna take my sins and go home. ;-)
  • DeeDee 251 Pts
    edited March 4

    @ethang5

    Reported yet again for trolling enjoy your upcoming ban ☺️
  • DeeDee 251 Pts
    @ethang5

    Thats 7 reports now asking for a total ban on you  , any more insults to throw?
  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    Yes.

    You are petty. You don't know how to debate. And when your vulgarism gets given back to you, you run whining to the mods like the loser you are.

    How is that?

    Get your sock puppet to report too. That always helps.

    Loser.
    Dee
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1449 Pts
    @ethang5

    You sound very angry in all of your posts. Lots of insults and toxic sarcasm. Are you not afraid that your god will send you to hell for treating others this way?

    Me, I am not. My goddess is Lolth, and she will whip me after death pretty much no matter what I do. The only difference is whether it will be done in a playful, or a serious manner - but I am fine either way, honestly! Maybe you should convert to our Drow religion. We have cookies and sexy dominant ladies!


  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    @MayCaesar

    >You sound very angry in all of your posts.

    Do dee, Joseph, and zombieguy "sound" angry to you too? Or is it only a theist's "anger" you can see?

    >Lots of insults and toxic sarcasm.

    As opposed to your non-toxic sarcasm?

    >Are you not afraid that your god will send you to hell for treating others this way?

    My God doesn't use how you feel as His measuring stick.

    >Me, I am not. My goddess is Lolth, and she will whip me after death pretty much no matter what I do.

    Lol. Must be some of your non-toxic sarcasm. I guess for you non-toxic means non-logical.

    >The only difference is whether it will be done in a playful, or a serious manner - but I am fine either way, honestly!

    And you think I care because...?

    >Maybe you should convert to our Drow religion. We have cookies and sexy dominant ladies!

    No thanks. I have a soft spot in my heart for good sense. But if you want to help someone, tell your pal Dee why murder is immoral, and help him report me.

    Or was that your intent all along?

    Lol. Transparent atheists.
    Dee
  • DeeDee 251 Pts


    THE FURIOUS VICIOUS CHRISTIAN TROLL ETHANG HAS ASKED THE SAME QUESTION REPEATEDLY NOW 53 TIMES I’VE EXPLAINED PATIENTLY 53 TIMES 


    HERE IS THE FURIOUS VICIOUS TROLL ETHANG BEING TOLD YET AGAIN .....WATCH HIS STUNNED INCOMPREHENSION AS HE ASKS YET AGAIN .........”BUH ,BUH WHY IS MURDER WRONG “



    My reply (54th ) Children as young as 4 understand this concept where I’m from why can’t you?

    Atheists mostly follow the Golden Rule 

    Murder is wrong because as an atheist I treat  others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. 

    Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.  

    Murder deprives another of the life they are entitled too.

    This explanation totally stuns ETHANG as he wishes to know how an atheist can reach these decisions without praying or consulting a Bible 


    ETHANGS REFUSES TO ANSWER QUESTIONS HE SAID “I’M NOT HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS PLACE IS “? 


    Ethang said god “invented “the Golden Rule he refuses to explain this merely answering “ because I said so “


    Ethang doesn’t know what objective morality as he refuses to define it


    Ethang says he doesn’t know what morality is without praying to god or reading the Bible for guidance , he refuses to define it 


    Ethang said there is a god because he said so he refuses to explain why


    Ethang said there are no other gods that’s stoopid  Ethang refuses to says why 


    Ethang said “ slavery, rape and infanticide were not in the Bible anyone that thinks so is stoopid  “ a real Christian dbox disagrees with Ethangs “assessment “ 


    Ethang said nothing is in the Bible unless he says so 


    Ethang said Atheists cannot be moral because they don’t pray or consult the Bible Ethang said this is because he says so









    Plaffelvohfen
  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    @Dee

    Hey Mr. More moral than God, you run out of gifs?

    You think posts in all caps makes you look less a loony?

    You can't debate me so you lie and invent quotes for me?

    Maybe lying is ok in your "golden rule" morality eh?

    You are empty dude. There is nothing to you. Beating you is so easy. Watching you lie and smarm up to other atheists is delicious.

    You thought you would have an easy walk through this theist, posting vulgar gifs and grade school jokes.

    Surprise!
    Dee
  • DeeDee 251 Pts
    @ethang5

    THE FURIOUS VICIOUS CHRISTIAN TROLL ETHANG HAS ASKED THE SAME QUESTION REPEATEDLY NOW 58 TIMES I’VE EXPLAINED PATIENTLY 58

    TIMES 


    HERE IS THE FURIOUS VICIOUS TROLL ETHANG BEING TOLD YET AGAIN .....WATCH HIS STUNNED INCOMPREHENSION AS HE ASKS YET AGAIN .........”BUH ,BUH WHY IS MURDER WRONG “


    My reply (54th ) Children as young as 4 understand this concept where I’m from why can’t you?

    Atheists mostly follow the Golden Rule 

    Murder is wrong because as an atheist I treat  others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. 

    Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.  

    Murder deprives another of the life they are entitled too.

    This explanation totally stuns ETHANG as he wishes to know how an atheist can reach these decisions without praying or consulting a Bible 


    ETHANGS REFUSES TO ANSWER QUESTIONS HE SAID “I’M NOT HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS PLACE IS “?


    Ethang said god “invented “the Golden Rule he refuses to explain this merely answering “ because I said so “


    Ethang doesn’t know what objective morality as he refuses to define it


    Ethang says he doesn’t know what morality is without praying to god or reading the Bible for guidance , he refuses to define it 


    Ethang said there is a god because he said so he refuses to explain why


    Ethang said there are no other gods that’s stoopid  Ethang refuses to says why 


    Ethang said “ slavery, rape and infanticide were not in the Bible anyone that thinks so is stoopid  “ a real Christian dbox disagrees with Ethangs “assessment “ 


    Ethang said nothing is in the Bible unless he says so 


    Ethang said Atheists cannot be moral because they don’t pray or consult the Bible Ethang said this is because he says so










  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    58 times you used a stupid circular argument.

    If it takes you a thousand times to sink into your thick skull, I'll be here for you.

    Why is murder immoral?

    This is a debate, I am not asking you for directions.

    Murder is not immoral because your moral code is the golden rule. The morality of murder has nothing to do with what your personal code is.

    Murder is not immoral because it deprives a person of the right to live. Murder IS depriving a person of the right to live. So saying murder is immoral because it is depriving someone of their right to live is the same as saying that, 

    Murder (Depriving a person of the right to live) is immoral because it is depriving a person of the right to live (murder)

    That is stupid. That is circular. That is dumb.

    Throw your tantrums. Go ahead an lie quotes for me. That question will wait for you. And you will see and acknowledge the circularity of your "answer".

    I was trained for trolls. I can wait.
  • DeeDee 251 Pts
    @ethang5



    THE FURIOUS AND DELUSIONAL VICIOUS “CHRISTIAN “TROLL ETHANG HAS ASKED THE SAME QUESTION REPEATEDLY NOW 58 TIMES I’VE EXPLAINED PATIENTLY 58

    TIMES 


    HERE IS THE FURIOUS VICIOUS TROLL ETHANG BEING TOLD YET AGAIN .....WATCH HIS STUNNED INCOMPREHENSION AS HE ASKS YET AGAIN .........”BUH ,BUH WHY IS MURDER WRONG , YOUR ANSWER CANNOT BE RIGHT CAUSE I SAID SO “




    My reply (54th ) Children as young as 4 understand this concept where I’m from why can’t you?

    Atheists mostly follow the Golden Rule 

    Murder is wrong because as an atheist I treat  others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. 

    Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.  

    Murder deprives another of the life they are entitled too.

    This explanation totally stuns ETHANG as he wishes to know how an atheist can reach these decisions without praying or consulting a Bible 


    ETHANGS REFUSES TO ANSWER QUESTIONS HE SAID “I’M NOT HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS PLACE IS “?


    Ethang said god “invented “the Golden Rule he refuses to explain this merely answering “ because I said so “


    Ethang doesn’t know what objective morality as he refuses to define it


    Ethang says he doesn’t know what morality is without praying to god or reading the Bible for guidance , he refuses to define it 


    Ethang said there is a god because he said so he refuses to explain why


    Ethang said there are no other gods that’s stoopid  Ethang refuses to says why 


    Ethang said “ slavery, rape and infanticide were not in the Bible anyone that thinks so is stoopid  “ a real Christian dbox disagrees with Ethangs “assessment “ 


    Ethang said nothing is in the Bible unless he says so 


    Ethang said Atheists cannot be moral because they don’t pray or consult the Bible Ethang said this is because

  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    Hey liar.

    Still spamming and lying about what I said?

    Has that helped you yet?

    I have faith in you. I will practise no idiot left behind. We will assist you till you get it.

    Murder is not immoral because you follow the golden rule. It isn't immoral based on how you act or what you believe.

    The morality of murder has nothing to do with you. 

    Keep spamming and lying. Even your fellow loonies seem to have left you. But never fear, I will stay with you till you get it. 

    The one thing I know about stupidity, is that it isn't forever. You will come to your senses or run away. Till then, you can lie as much as you like, but the question you are running from will be here waiting for you.
  • DeeDee 251 Pts
    @ethang5



    THE FURIOUS AND DELUSIONAL VICIOUS “CHRISTIAN “TROLL ETHANG HAS ASKED THE SAME QUESTION REPEATEDLY NOW 58 TIMES I’VE EXPLAINED PATIENTLY 58

    TIMES 


    HERE IS THE FURIOUS VICIOUS TROLL ETHANG BEING TOLD YET AGAIN .....WATCH HIS STUNNED INCOMPREHENSION AS HE ASKS YET AGAIN .........”BUH ,BUH WHY IS MURDER WRONG , YOUR ANSWER CANNOT BE RIGHT CAUSE I SAID SO “




    My reply (54th ) Children as young as 4 understand this concept where I’m from why can’t you?

    Atheists mostly follow the Golden Rule 

    Murder is wrong because as an atheist I treat  others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. 

    Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.  

    Murder deprives another of the life they are entitled too.

    This explanation totally stuns ETHANG as he wishes to know how an atheist can reach these decisions without praying or consulting a Bible 


    ETHANGS REFUSES TO ANSWER QUESTIONS HE SAID “I’M NOT HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS PLACE IS “?


    Ethang said god “invented “the Golden Rule he refuses to explain this merely answering “ because I said so “


    Ethang doesn’t know what objective morality as he refuses to define it


    Ethang says he doesn’t know what morality is without praying to god or reading the Bible for guidance , he refuses to define it 


    Ethang said there is a god because he said so he refuses to explain why


    Ethang said there are no other gods that’s stoopid  Ethang refuses to says why 


    Ethang said “ slavery, rape and infanticide were not in the Bible anyone that thinks so is stoopid  “ a real Christian dbox disagrees with Ethangs “assessment “ 


    Ethang said nothing is in the Bible unless he says so 


    Ethang said Atheists cannot be moral because they don’t pray or consult the Bible Ethang said this is because he says so











    THE FURIOUS AND DELUSIONAL VICIOUS “CHRISTIAN “TROLL ETHANG HAS ASKED THE SAME QUESTION REPEATEDLY NOW 58 TIMES I’VE EXPLAINED PATIENTLY 58

    TIMES 


    HERE IS THE FURIOUS VICIOUS TROLL ETHANG BEING TOLD YET AGAIN .....WATCH HIS STUNNED INCOMPREHENSION AS HE ASKS YET AGAIN .........”BUH ,BUH WHY IS MURDER WRONG , YOUR ANSWER CANNOT BE RIGHT CAUSE I SAID SO “




    My reply (54th ) Children as young as 4 understand this concept where I’m from why can’t you?

    Atheists mostly follow the Golden Rule 

    Murder is wrong because as an atheist I treat  others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. 

    Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.  

    Murder deprives another of the life they are entitled too.

    This explanation totally stuns ETHANG as he wishes to know how an atheist can reach these decisions without praying or consulting a Bible 


    ETHANGS REFUSES TO ANSWER QUESTIONS HE SAID “I’M NOT HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS PLACE IS “?


    Ethang said god “invented “the Golden Rule he refuses to explain this merely answering “ because I said so “


    Ethang doesn’t know what objective morality as he refuses to define it


    Ethang says he doesn’t know what morality is without praying to god or reading the Bible for guidance , he refuses to define it 


    Ethang said there is a god because he said so he refuses to explain why


    Ethang said there are no other gods that’s stoopid  Ethang refuses to says why 


    Ethang said “ slavery, rape and infanticide were not in the Bible anyone that thinks so is stoopid  “ a real Christian dbox disagrees with Ethangs “assessment “ 


    Ethang said nothing is in the Bible unless he says so 


    Ethang said Atheists cannot be moral because they don’t pray or consult the Bible Ethang said this is because he says so










  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    @Dee

    Hi deedee.

    Sorry. I remain unmoved. You are just a run the mill troll.

    Faking quotes, posting my posts, mindless repetition, all are games of the typical idiot atheist troll.

    Ho hum.

    I bet you thought all that silliness was new and inventive huh? Ah youth.

    I will be with you through it all though. As I said, you first posted to me. Now you've got me.

    Get all your youthful stupidity out. I'll wait.

    Where is Joseph by the way? If he helped you it could be like a tag team. You and your sock puppet, fighting for justice and the atheist way. Cool huh?

    Lol. What a homer.
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    WOW I hardly knows you yet i have caught you lying already.      I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Exodus 20:5 , Deuteronomy 5:9@ethang5 @ethang5
  • ethang5ethang5 89 Pts
    @mickyg

    Of all the things you don't know, I should be the least of your worries.

  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    Here is what i know.The gospels are anonymous and don't appear in history until 160ad.You can run all you want but i am still here.@ethang5
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    Lets look at luke.Who was luke?@ethang5
  • SandSand 31 Pts
    It doesn't have to make sense, the one who gave life outlined the way to survive death. Adam and Eve chose death, as their offspring we did not have a choice, so Jesus came to replace Adam to give us a choice.
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