Are Americans Ok With Illegal Immigrants Coming Into Their Country?

MayCaesar

@TKDB ;

If you read your article carefully, you will see that it mentions "aliens" in some parts, and "illegal aliens" in other parts. "Aliens" and "illegal aliens" are different groups of people.

Now, the title says this:

"Illegal Alien Crime Wave in Texas: 611,234 Crimes, 2,993 Murders"

But the actual sentence from the body of the article is:

"The criminal aliens identified by the Texas Department of Public Safety have been responsible for the most heinous types of crimes -- and in astonishing numbers. From the Texas DPS report:

A review of these 177,588 defendants shows that they are responsible for at least 611,234 individual criminal charges over their criminal careers, including 2,993 homicides and 7,695 sexual assaults."

The "criminal aliens" are aliens who have committed crimes, not illegal aliens who have committed crimes.

In other words, the author of your article in the title misrepresented the actual statement of the Texas Department of Public Safety. The claim in the title is a lie.

I do not know about you, but I personally deal with multiple research papers every day in my line of work. The title or the abstract making claims that are not supported by the presented evidence in the body of the article is a red flag enough that I would discard the paper immediately, and possibly contact the journal that agreed to publish such work and point out that it does follow the scientific method.
Yet you seem to be okay with it, and even after someone has pointed it out to you, you still stand by the article.

Which makes me think that you are not really interested in the truth. You are interested in whatever seemingly supports your narrative, even if it contradicts itself.

whiteflame

@TKDB

First, thanks for proving me right immediately by posting the rancher video again.

Second, if you actually read what you quoted (insane, I know), you might have noticed that I specified which points fit the characterizations I was giving. That “mess” is called words. Words have meaning, but only if you read them and take the time to understand them, neither of which you are apparently willing to do.

Oh, and I’ve now responded to that article a couple of times, not that that matters to you. You don’t like to read, so hey, I’ll do you a favor and stop giving you things to read. Sound good?

TKDB

@whiteflame

If you have an issue, take it up with aarong.

TKDB

@whiteflame

"In other words, the author of your article in the title misrepresented the actual statement of the Texas Department of Public Safety. The claim in the title is a lie."

Again, if you have an issue, email the author of the article, and tell them how whiteflame views it. 

TKDB

What a sad mess looks like, some of the immigrants coming into the United States each day illegaly, is a sad mess.

By one of the ranchers account, up to 300 illegal immigrants a day, are tresspassing through his property, and illegally as well tresspassing into the US as well.

The sexual assaults, the home invasions, the ranchers properties getting stolen by the illegal immigrants, is a sad mess.

The businesses utilizing the illegal immigrants to do work for them, for their cheap labor is a sad mess.

And the 300 sanctuary cities in the country, giving some of the illegal immigrants sanctuary, is a sad mess as well.

The IRCA law made into a law, by former President Reagan, is getting treated like trash, and that is egregious and sad.

I'm guessing that those businesses, maybe don't care about the IRCA law, the cheap labor outweighs the very words written in the IRCA law. it would seem? 

Is anyone in the forum, besides me familiar with the IRCA law?

TKDB

@whiteflame

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986

The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), Pub.L. 99–603, 100 Stat. 3445, enacted November 6, 1986, also known as the Simpson–Mazzoli Act or the Reagan Amnesty,[1] signed into law by Ronald Reagan on November 6, 1986, is an Act of Congress which reformed United Statesimmigration law. The Act[2]

• required employers to attest to their employees' immigration status;
• made it illegal to hire or recruit illegal immigrantsknowingly;
• legalized certain seasonal agricultural undocumented immigrants, and;
• legalized undocumented immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously with the penalty of a fine, back taxes due, and admission of guilt; candidates were required to prove that they were not guilty of crimes, that they were in the country before January 1, 1982, and that they possessed at least a minimal knowledge about U.S. history, government, and the English language. 

TKDB

@whiteflame

Why do you view the IRCA law as irrelevant? 


@whiteflame

And why do you view the below as irrelevant?

What a sad mess looks like, some of the immigrants coming into the United States each day illegaly, is a sad mess.

By one of the ranchers account, up to 300 illegal immigrants a day, are tresspassing through his property, and illegally as well tresspassing into the US as well.

The sexual assaults, the home invasions, the ranchers properties getting stolen by the illegal immigrants, is a sad mess.

The businesses utilizing the illegal immigrants to do work for them, for their cheap labor is a sad mess.

And the 300 sanctuary cities in the country, giving some of the illegal immigrants sanctuary, is a sad mess as well.

The IRCA law made into a law, by former President Reagan, is getting treated like trash, and that is egregious and sad.

I'm guessing that those businesses, maybe don't care about the IRCA law, the cheap labor outweighs the very words written in the IRCA law. it would seem?  

whiteflame

@TKDB

What’s irrelevant about both these posts, not to mention so much of your posts in general, is that they’re not responsive to any of the points we’re making. They’re relevant to the topic of immigration, but not to anything we’ve said. That irrelevance is compounded by the fact that what you’ve been presenting over and over is largely conceded as true. The IRCA is not functioning as it should - I made that argument on our previous forum discussion. People at the border are being harmed by some aspects of illegal immigration. Again, these points are conceded...

And yet...

You keep on...

Revisiting them...

Over and over and over again...

Irrelevant doesn’t begin to describe what you’re doing here. I wish there was a button for “just stop already” or “WHY?!” because I feel like I’m giving you too much credit for only saying these things are irrelevant. They’re not just irrelevant, they confound the discussion. Your posts are like the Birdemic: Shock and Terror of debate: a whole lot of repetitive screeching pasted over a script that had nothing meaningful or interesting to say. Much like that movie, you have one point you’re going to make that you’ll beat us over the head with, ignoring the fact that it has nothing to do with the title. But hey, you’ve got one thing over Birdemic: your arguments are infinitely more forgettable.

TKDB

@whiteflame

You're maybe referring to these points of view as this?

"Your posts are like the Birdemic: Shock and Terror of debate: a whole lot of repetitive screeching pasted over a script that had nothing meaningful or interesting to say."

Educating the public on the crimes committed by the illegal immigrants, you view them as shock and terror debating?

Sexual assaults being committed by the illegal immigrants, and you're viewing them as a shock and terror debating?

Do you view the home invasions and the breaking into the ranchers home, as shock and terror debating?

One of the ranchers expressed that 6 illegal immigrants had died on his property, so do you as well view the mentioning of his account, as shock and terror debating? 

The illegal immigrants, are driving trucks filled with illegal drugs through the ranchers properties as well, along with human trafficking, do you view the mentioning of those accounts ad shock and terror debating as well? 

Would you rather that those ranchers, have just lived with those crimes, and sat in silence, and not tell anyone? 

And just continue to live with those illegal immigrants, tresspassing on their properties, stealing their property, and breaking into their homes, and be victimized by the illegal immigrants, day after day, month after month, year after year? 

(What a sad mess looks like, some of the immigrants coming into the United States each day illegaly, is a sad mess.

By one of the ranchers account, up to 300 illegal immigrants a day, are tresspassing through his property, and illegally as well tresspassing into the US as well.

The sexual assaults, the home invasions, the ranchers properties getting stolen by the illegal immigrants, is a sad mess.

The businesses utilizing the illegal immigrants to do work for them, for their cheap labor is a sad mess.

And the 300 sanctuary cities in the country, giving some of the illegal immigrants sanctuary, is a sad mess as well.)
 

John_C_87

Immigration is not the issue, the issue is National security, and the national security answer to any solution will have little to do with the actions of people who are simply branded criminal due to accusations of immigration and job acquisition period. It is un-congress definition of basic principle meaning a lack of any wisdom brought by age, as a state of the Union. Immigration law is much like passing rules that make it a crime for people to walk in your front yard. These disputes clog the process of separation way before they create meaningful outcome.

Simply put the rancher has come to address the United States Constitution, asking for a fence to direct people like cattle. The people with little regard to United States constitutional representation translate the request back as wrong, and retaliate by offering safe harbor picking sides over other left in harm’s way. This too lacks possibly equal understanding and constitutional truth. Don’t not look at this like the reasoning brought is ignored, the warning here is the monster we created as fence, is just not manageable by past experience, while the attempt opens a door more suited to a monster which is more suitable to the task enquired.

TKDB

@John_C_87

Are you familiar with the below law?

Because some of the businesses in the United States are in violation of that law, if they aren't abiding by the letter of that law.

Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986

The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), Pub.L. 99–603, 100 Stat. 3445, enacted November 6, 1986, also known as the Simpson–Mazzoli Act or the Reagan Amnesty,[1] signed into law by Ronald Reagan on November 6, 1986, is an Act of Congress which reformed United Statesimmigration law. The Act[2]

• required employers to attest to their employees' immigration status;
• made it illegal to hire or recruit illegal immigrantsknowingly;
• legalized certain seasonal agricultural undocumented immigrants, and;
• legalized undocumented immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously with the penalty of a fine, back taxes due, and admission of guilt; candidates were required to prove that they were not guilty of crimes, that they were in the country before January 1, 1982, and that they possessed at least a minimal knowledge about U.S. history, government, and the English language.  

TKDB

@whiteflame

"The IRCA is not functioning as it should"

That's because some of the individuals in the United States are breaking that law.

Just as any law, isn't functioning as it should when it gets broken as well?

The laws against sexual assaults.

The laws against coming into the United States illegally.

The laws against theft

The laws against murder.

The laws against human trafficking.

The laws against drug smuggling. 

@John_C_879

Care to comment on the above? 

TKDB

@Zombieguy1987

Why do you view the IRCA law as irrelevant? 

TKDB

@whiteflame

https://fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

"The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers,"

"Introduction

A continually growing population of illegal aliens, along with the federal government’s ineffective efforts to secure our borders, present significant national security and public safety threats to the United States. They also have a severely negative impact on the nation’s taxpayers at the local, state, and national levels. Illegal immigration costs Americans billions of dollars each year. Illegal aliens are net consumers of taxpayer-funded services and the limited taxes paid by some segments of the illegal alien population are, in no way, significant enough to offset the growing financial burdens imposed on U.S. taxpayers by massive numbers of uninvited guests. This study examines the fiscal impact of illegal aliens as reflected in both federal and state budgets.

The Number of Illegal Immigrants in the US

Estimating the fiscal burden of illegal immigration on the U.S. taxpayer depends on the size and characteristics of the illegal alien population. FAIR defines “illegal alien” as anyone who entered the United States without authorization and anyone who unlawfully remains once his/her authorization has expired. Unfortunately, the U.S. government has no central database containing information on the citizenship status of everyone lawfully present in the United States. The overall problem of estimating the illegal alien population is further complicated by the fact that the majority of available sources on immigration status rely on self-reported data. Given that illegal aliens have a motive to lie about their immigration status, in order to avoid discovery, the accuracy of these statistics is dubious, at best. All of the foregoing issues make it very difficult to assess the current illegal alien population of the United States.

However, FAIR now estimates that there are approximately 12.5 million illegal alien residents. This number uses FAIR’s previous estimates but adjusts for suspected changes in levels of unlawful migration, based on information available from the Department of Homeland Security, data available from other federal and state government agencies, and other research studies completed by reliable think tanks, universities, and other research organizations."

 "The Cost of Illegal Immigration to the United States"

"At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens, and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. 

That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. 

The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion. 

This is a disturbing and unsustainable trend. The sections below will break down and further explain these numbers at the federal, state, and local levels."

"Total Governmental Expenditures on Illegal Aliens

Total Tax Contributions by Illegal Aliens

Total Economic Impact of Illegal Immigration 

"

"Federal

The Federal government spends a net amount of $45.8 billion on illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children. This amount includes expenditures for public education, medical care, justice enforcement initiatives, welfare programs and other miscellaneous costs. It also factors in the meager amount illegal aliens pay to the federal government in income, social security, Medicare and excise taxes.

 

FEDERAL SPENDING

The approximately $46 billion in federal expenditures attributable to illegal aliens is staggering. Assuming an illegal alien population of approximately 12.5 million illegal aliens and 4.2 million U.S.-born children of illegal aliens, that amounts to roughly $2,746 per illegal alien, per year. For the sake of comparison, the average American college student receives only $4,800 in federal student loans each year.

FAIR maintains that every concerned American citizen should be asking our government why, in a time of increasing costs and shrinking resources, is it spending such large amounts of money on individuals who have no right, nor authorization, to be in the United States? This is an especially important question in view of the fact that the illegal alien beneficiaries of American taxpayer largess offset very little of the enormous costs of their presence by the payment of taxes. Meanwhile, average Americans pay approximately 30% of their income in taxes.

Federal Education - $1.6 Billion

Federal Medical Costs - $17.1 Billion

Federal Justice Expenditures - $13.1 Billion

Federal Welfare Programs - $5.8 Billion

Total Federal Expenditures - $45.8 Billion

FEDERAL TAXES

Taxes collected from illegal aliens offset fiscal outlays and, therefore must be included in any examination of the cost of illegal immigration. However, illegal alien apologists frequently cite the allegedly large tax payments made by illegal aliens as a justification for their unlawful presence, and as a basis for offering them permanent legal status through a new amnesty, similar to the one enacted in 1986. That argument is nothing more than a red herring.

FAIR believes that most studies grossly overestimate both the taxes actually collected from illegal aliens and, more importantly, the amount of taxes actually paid by illegal aliens (i.e., the amount of money collected from illegal aliens and actually kept by the federal government). This belief is based on a number of factors: Since the 1990’s, the United States has focused on apprehending and removing criminal aliens. The majority of illegal aliens seeking employment in the United States have lived in an environment where they have little fear of deportation, even if discovered. This has created an environment where most illegal aliens are both able and willing to file tax returns. Because the vast majority of illegal aliens hold low-paying jobs, those who are subject to wage deductions actually wind up receiving a complete refund of all taxes paid, plus net payments made on the basis of tax credits.

As a result, illegal aliens actually profit from filing a tax return and, therefore, have a strong interest in doing so.

Federal Tax Receipts from Illegal Aliens - $22.1 Billion

TOTAL FEDERAL ECONOMIC IMPACT OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

Net Federal Impact of Illegal Aliens - $30.4 Billion

State and Local

Even though the costs of illegal immigration borne by taxpayers at the federal level are staggering, they only pale in comparison to the fiscal burden shouldered by taxpayers at the state level. Most government taxes and fees remitted to government by Americans are paid in forms other than income taxes submitted to the IRS on April 15th. There are city and state income taxes, fuel surcharges, sales and property taxes, etc…. States and localities also bear the main burden for costs associated with public education, city and county infrastructure, and local courts and jails.

A further complication is the fact that, while barred from many federal benefits, state laws allow illegal aliens to access many state-funded social welfare programs. Because so little data is collected on the immigration status of individuals collecting benefits, it is difficult to determine the rate at which illegal aliens use welfare programs. However, based on the average income of illegal alien households, it appears they use these programs at a rate higher than lawfully present aliens or citizens.

 

STATE AND LOCAL SPENDING

The combined total of state and local government general expenditures on illegal aliens is $18,571,428,571 billion. The services referenced in this section are supported directly by the payment of city and state taxes and related fees. At the state level, examples of general expenditures would be the costs of general governance, fire departments, garbage collection, street cleaning and maintenance, etc. The state, county or municipality — or even a special taxing district in some situations — may provide some of these services. In most cases, localities offer more services than the state. By FAIR’s estimate, there is approximately a 65 percent to 35 percent cost share between local and state governments.

The estimate of general expenditure services received by illegal alien households, beyond the specific outlays mentioned in the sections above, excludes capital expenditures and debt servicing. The calculation for each state is based on the state’s annual operating budget, reduced by the amount covered by the federal government. That expenditure is then reduced further based on the relative size of the estimated population of illegal aliens and their U.S.-born minor children. As noted in our population estimate, this means states like California, Texas, Florida, New York, etc., with larger illegal alien cohorts, will bear larger shares of these costs."

TKDB

http://fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens

"Examples of Serious Crimes By Illegal Aliens

Lennox Lake

On May 6th 2017 on the way back from DisneyLand, Ingrid Lake's car was struck by a drunk driver. The accident severely injured her 6 year old son Lennox. The driver of the vehicle Constantino Banda Acosta, was previously deported over 15 times before the accident. This accident has forever altered the Lake family.

Ronald Da Silva

On April 27, 2002, Ronald da Silva was standing with a friend in his driveway when he was shot and killed by an illegal alien who had been previously deported. The illegal alien was sentenced to 21 years in prison but will be released in 2020. Ronald da Silva’s mother, Agnes Gibboney, has made a powerful statement, “The guy that killed my son has a determinate sentence in prison but I have a lifetime sentence of grief and pain.” Since the tragedy occurred, Agnes has been on the front line pushing for immigration reform.

Tessa Tranchant

Tessa Tranchant, 16, was killed on March 30, 2007 in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Tessa and her friend, Ali Kunhardt, were sitting at a stoplight when Alfredo Ramos, an illegal alien from Mexico who was intoxicated and speeding, rear-ended their car. Ramos had a history of prior convictions, but due to Virginia Beach’s sanctuary policies, he was never detained. He was charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 40 years in prison.

Sarah Root

Sarah Root, 21, from Omaha, Nebraska was killed on January 31, 2016. Her SUV was rear-ended by Eswin Mejia, an illegal alien from Honduras, who was street racing. Sarah had just graduated from Bellevue University with a 4.0 GPA the day before she passed away. Omaha is in Douglas County, Nebraska which has sanctuary policies that impede local law enforcement’s ability to cooperate with ICE officers. Mejia was charged with motor vehicular homicide but posted bond to get out of jail and was released. He is still on the run.

Shayley Estes

Igor Zubko, an illegal alien from Russia, killed Shayley on July 24, 2015 in Phoenix, Arizona. Shayley obtained an order of protection against Zubko just 10 days before her murder, but he entered her home and fatally shot her. Zubko entered the U.S. legally, but overstayed his visa and remained in the U.S. illegally. He is in police custody and faces first-degree murder charges.

Drew Rosenberg, 25

Roberto Galo, an unlicensed driver from Honduras who entered the U.S. illegally but earned temporary protective status (TPS), killed Drew Rosenberg, a second-year law student, on November 16, 2010 in San Francisco, California. Rosenberg was riding his motorcycle when Galo ran over him three times with his car. Galo was convicted of vehicular manslaughter and sentenced to 6 months in jail. USCIS refused to deport him and he was released after serving only 43 days. Thanks to the Rosenberg family's activism, Galo was finally deported on April 4, 2013."

"Chronology

These cases are not representative of the illegal alien population in general, but demonstrate that better prevention of illegal immigration is a public safety issue. The following crime information is gathered from various news sources, and refers to crimes other than terrorism. The criminal aliens mentioned are all identified as being in the country illegally. Many of them had come into the hands of law enforcement agencies prior to the crime that is described, and were not deported or in some cases, deported but reentered the country.

Archive of Serious Crimes Committed by Illegal Aliens

2017

2016

2015

Archive

• ISSUES
  • AMNESTY
  • LEGAL IMMIGRATION
  • ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
  • NATIONAL SECURITY
  • WORKFORCE & ECONOMY
  • SOCIETAL IMPACT
  • POPULATION & ENVIRONMENT
  • PUBLICATIONS & RESOURCES "
    

whiteflame

@TKDB

Did I say anything negative about the IRCA? Did I say anything was wrong with your characterizations of the problems ranchers face? Did I say you were wrong about human or drug trafficking? 

What?! I didn’t!? You mean I didn’t challenge a single one of these points? And no one else did either?! But... that just can’t be true! I mean, you’ve brought them up dozens of times now. Clearly, you must be arguing against someone! Someone must be challenging you on these points, otherwise, why would you bother repeating them over and over? What possible reason would you have to keep arguing the same points if everyone on the site conceded them?

To be absolutely clear and remove all sarcasm, your repetition serves no purpose. No one is challenging these arguments. No one is challenging the IRCA. You are repetitively arguing against no one. 

And, to be clear yet again because apparently this went over your head, “Birdemic: Shock and Terror” is the title of a schlocky movie where bad CGI birds try to kill some San Francisco residents. I was comparing the way you debate to the way that movie was filmed and written. It has a really poorly expressed environmental message shoved in there for good measure. For the record, I would like to express my apologies for the inapt comparison. Birdemic may be a bad movie, but at least it progresses.

TKDB

@whiteflame

"Did I say anything negative about the IRCA?"

You utilized the (!) Symbol outside of the lower left of the argument box, just as Zombieguy1987 did?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986

The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA), Pub.L. 99–603, 100 Stat. 3445, enacted November 6, 1986, also known as the Simpson–Mazzoli Act or the Reagan Amnesty,[1] signed into law by Ronald Reagan on November 6, 1986, is an Act of Congress which reformed United Statesimmigration law. The Act[2]

• required employers to attest to their employees' immigration status;
• made it illegal to hire or recruit illegal immigrantsknowingly;
• legalized certain seasonal agricultural undocumented immigrants, and;
• legalized undocumented immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously with the penalty of a fine, back taxes due, and admission of guilt; candidates were required to prove that they were not guilty of crimes, that they were in the country before January 1, 1982, and that they possessed at least a minimal knowledge about U.S. history, government, and the English language.  

@whiteflame

What's wrong with the above law, if none of the immigrants are coming into the United States illegally, and then working for some of the businesses under the table, and providing those same businesses with illegal cheap labor? 

TKDB

@whiteflame

Here is some real life information for your below referenced commentary:

"And, to be clear yet again because apparently this went over your head, “Birdemic: Shock and Terror” is the title of a schlocky movie where bad CGI birds try to kill some San Francisco residents. I was comparing the way you debate to the way that movie was filmed and written. It has a really poorly expressed environmental message shoved in there for good measure. For the record, I would like to express my apologies for the inapt comparison. Birdemic may be a bad movie, but at least it progresses. 

http://fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens

"Examples of Serious Crimes By Illegal Aliens

Lennox Lake

On May 6th 2017 on the way back from DisneyLand, Ingrid Lake's car was struck by a drunk driver. The accident severely injured her 6 year old son Lennox. The driver of the vehicle Constantino Banda Acosta, was previously deported over 15 times before the accident. This accident has forever altered the Lake family.

Ronald Da Silva

On April 27, 2002, Ronald da Silva was standing with a friend in his driveway when he was shot and killed by an illegal alien who had been previously deported. The illegal alien was sentenced to 21 years in prison but will be released in 2020. Ronald da Silva’s mother, Agnes Gibboney, has made a powerful statement, “The guy that killed my son has a determinate sentence in prison but I have a lifetime sentence of grief and pain.” Since the tragedy occurred, Agnes has been on the front line pushing for immigration reform.

Tessa Tranchant

Tessa Tranchant, 16, was killed on March 30, 2007 in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Tessa and her friend, Ali Kunhardt, were sitting at a stoplight when Alfredo Ramos, an illegal alien from Mexico who was intoxicated and speeding, rear-ended their car. Ramos had a history of prior convictions, but due to Virginia Beach’s sanctuary policies, he was never detained. He was charged with two counts of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to 40 years in prison.

Sarah Root

Sarah Root, 21, from Omaha, Nebraska was killed on January 31, 2016. Her SUV was rear-ended by Eswin Mejia, an illegal alien from Honduras, who was street racing. Sarah had just graduated from Bellevue University with a 4.0 GPA the day before she passed away. Omaha is in Douglas County, Nebraska which has sanctuary policies that impede local law enforcement’s ability to cooperate with ICE officers. Mejia was charged with motor vehicular homicide but posted bond to get out of jail and was released. He is still on the run.

Shayley Estes

Igor Zubko, an illegal alien from Russia, killed Shayley on July 24, 2015 in Phoenix, Arizona. Shayley obtained an order of protection against Zubko just 10 days before her murder, but he entered her home and fatally shot her. Zubko entered the U.S. legally, but overstayed his visa and remained in the U.S. illegally. He is in police custody and faces first-degree murder charges.

Drew Rosenberg, 25

Roberto Galo, an unlicensed driver from Honduras who entered the U.S. illegally but earned temporary protective status (TPS), killed Drew Rosenberg, a second-year law student, on November 16, 2010 in San Francisco, California. Rosenberg was riding his motorcycle when Galo ran over him three times with his car. Galo was convicted of vehicular manslaughter and sentenced to 6 months in jail. USCIS refused to deport him and he was released after serving only 43 days. Thanks to the Rosenberg family's activism, Galo was finally deported on April 4, 2013."

"Chronology

These cases are not representative of the illegal alien population in general, but demonstrate that better prevention of illegal immigration is a public safety issue. The following crime information is gathered from various news sources, and refers to crimes other than terrorism. The criminal aliens mentioned are all identified as being in the country illegally. Many of them had come into the hands of law enforcement agencies prior to the crime that is described, and were not deported or in some cases, deported but reentered the country.

Archive of Serious Crimes Committed by Illegal Aliens

2017

2016

2015

Archive

• ISSUES
• AMNESTY
• LEGAL IMMIGRATION
• ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
• NATIONAL SECURITY
• WORKFORCE & ECONOMY
• SOCIETAL IMPACT
• POPULATION & ENVIRONMENT
• PUBLICATIONS & RESOURCES 

John_C_87

@TKDB ;

Are you familiar with the below law?
Because some of the businesses in the United States are in violation of that law, if they aren't abiding by the letter of that law.

TKDB

Yeah it’s one of the many laws that was unconstitutional passed to hide the state use of credit as an illegal tender of the United States of America. As spending set free as an independent state to print its own illegal form of receipt. The governing agent, or representative presenting unconstitutional law as a means to try and remove the publics independence by creating a payment method that can be revoked long after any delivery of service or materials based been made, on, or by claims of legality.

Here again you are say, the writing legislation about immigration, legislation which has an issue of health and welfare can take place outside constitutional argument based on efforts to regulate extent of  personal liberties or independence, rather then a person might to apply self-servitude while being ambassador of their host nation inside the United States of America.

Realistically the idea is to look into limited declarations of ambassador status to immigrants who have been found to be wonder inside or onto United States, then moving the nomad, freelance, ambassador to the residence of that nation’s representation as soon as possible. With an additional great deal of restriction on their liberty and movement until proper status can be obtained. It is far better to place the immigrant in front of their peer. The many from their Nation who wish to obtain citizenship. This servers two purpose. One as educational, two as punishment more in line to a sense of impartiality as the cheater so to speak is set to the back of the line. At minimum.

Of course this could just be too radical of a restructure to undergo after decades of unconstitutional actions by misdirected laws of immigration. Again remember the goal is to structure a organized change model around the states of the union.

whiteflame

@TKDB

It’s seriously just so insane how little you read of what I post, and even more ridiculous how you don’t understand the very sentences you re-post from my posts. If I can’t even get across basic information to you, as I clearly can’t (I don’t know how I could be clearer that I have no problems with the IRCA law), then why should I bother trying to impart nuance to you about how illegal immigrants affect our country?

I guarantee you will respond to this post with repetition, including rehashing your points about the ranchers, a re-posting of the IRCA law summary, and perhaps further requests for response to these new points (which you don’t actually want and wouldn’t respond to if you did). I am certain that you will read, at most, one or two sentences of this post and not understand a word of it. So, if you’re going to try hard to understand anything I post here, understand this:

I HAVE NO INTEREST CONTINUING THIS OR ANY OTHER DISCUSSION OR DEBATE WITH YOU. IF THIS IS ALL YOU WANT TO DO, AND YOU’VE MADE CLEAR THAT IT IS, THEN I AM DONE, AND I RECOMMEND THAT NO ONE ON THIS SITE TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY. WHAT YOU DO HERE IS NOT DEBATE OR EVEN A PARODY OF DEBATE. WHAT YOU DO IS SIMPLY A WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY.

TKDB

@whiteflame

@John_C_87

@Zombieguy1987

What is your position?

Anti border wall, pro illegal immigrants/ immigration, anti rancher?

Or pro Border wall, anti illegal immigrants, and pro rancher? 

I'm pro Border wall, pro rancher, pro IRCA law, and pro community.

Zombieguy1987

TKDB said:

@Zombieguy1987

Why do you view the IRCA law as irrelevant? 

Once again... Not the only one, and I'm not going to waste my time with your nonsense 

MayCaesar

@TKDB

You have a very simple, straightforward, black-and-white world-view. Everything seems binary in your system of beliefs. There is only "pro-illegal immigrants" or "anti-illegal immigrants"; "pro-Border wall" or "anti-Border wall"; "pro-rancher" or "anti-rancher". The reality is slightly more complicated.

Let me make a few points describing my view:
1) The US immigration system (for that matter, every single modern immigration system) is a mess. It needs urgent reforms. There are many ways those reforms could be done. We could roll back to the pre-Wilson laws, when the border control did not really exist and anyone could legally walk into the US without much fuzz. Or we could make our system more merit-based, rather than lottery-based.
2) Assuming the immigration system stays as it is, I am against letting people violate the laws and cross the border illegally: laws should be either enforced, or abolished.
3) At the same time, statistically illegal immigrants affect the lives of Americans so negligibly little, that this is hardly a valid topic to discuss at all. I am not saying it should be ignored, but it should not be a topic facilitating a broad discussion.
4) I do believe the border should be secure. I do not believe that building walls is going to accomplish that, however. We do not live in the prehistoric times any more; with modern technologies, you can build a detection and prevention system that will be able to detect every spider crossing the border, and intercept it shortly.
5) There is a big difference between the reality in the world, and the virtual reality in the media space. It is the nature of media to present facts (or sometimes even make up facts) that support a certain narrative. There is no scientific method involved, and the media have learned to be VERY persuasive over the centuries of their existence. It is very easy to lose one's mind to a narrative that sounds compelling. "The two evil ones", nationalism and socialism, have probably been the biggest abusers in human history. You seem to have been caught up in the first of these evils, and you look at everything through the prism of nationalism. 
The best way to deal with it is to just stop reading the media. Get your news from direct sources or short summaries with no commentary attached. Do not listen to the stories that have gone through multiple edits and retells and ended up nothing like the original.

I would like to see a similar description from you. A proper summary of your views acknowledging the complexity of the topic.

Instead all I see is some short simplifications that make it look as if, instead of a discussion on a mature debate website, we were playing a word game in a kindergarten.

The world is difficult, my friend. Very often, when you do not agree with someone, the disagreement is much deeper than you think. Simply because we do not agree on everything, does not mean that one of us is "pro-something" and another is "anti-something". Perhaps we agree almost on everything, but disagree on some interpretations, and in your binary world view that makes you conclude that we disagree on everything.

I notice this pattern in almost all populist supporters. People who support Trump and people who support Bernie are very similar in this. They may have the opposite views, but they both come from the same simplified binary world view, offering simple solutions to very complex problems and hoping they will work. One side yells, "Build the wall!" Another side yells, "Universal healthcare!" Hello, people? This is not tic-tac-toe, this is the real world, where you cannot just propose a caveman idea and suddenly fix everything.

TKDB

@Zombieguy1987


Why do you view the IRCA law as irrelevant? 

Once again... Not the only one, and I'm not going to waste my time with your nonsense. 

Yet, you provided an answer? 

TKDB

@MayCaesar

"You have a very simple, straightforward, black-and-white world-view. Everything seems binary in your system of beliefs. There is only "pro-illegal immigrants" or "anti-illegal immigrants"; "pro-Border wall" or "anti-Border wall"; "pro-rancher" or "anti-rancher". The reality is slightly more complicated."

What's complicated about the IRCA law act of 1986?

What's complicated about 300 illegal aliens a day, making an unlawful choice to illegaly come into the United States daily along the southern border?

What's complicated about the amount of money that is spent on them?

(The Federal government spends a net amount of $45.8 billion on illegal aliens and their U.S.-born children. This amount includes expenditures for public education, medical care, justice enforcement initiatives, welfare programs and other miscellaneous costs.)

What's complicated about how many crimes that they have committed?

("611,234 individual criminal charges over their criminal careers, including 2,993 homicides and 7,695 sexual assaults")

What's complicated about the 2,993 murders that were committed by the illegal aliens?

That's 2,993 funerals, obituaries, and gravestones that 2,993 families went through an effort to plan because of the illegal actions committed by the illegal aliens.

Do you have any non black and white world view words, of condolences for those families? 

What's complicated about the 7,695 sexual assault crimes, that were committed by those illegal aliens?

That means that there are 7,695 sexual assault victims, do you maybe have any non black and white world view words, for those sexual assault victims? 

What's complicated about this point of view? 

Those millions of illegal aliens, are basically hoping that another President is going to grant them all amnesty, again, aren't they?

Because cheap labor, apparently matters more, doesn't it, MayCaesar?

TKDB

https://www-foxnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.foxnews.com/us/man-confesses-to-slaying-new-york-woman-found-stuffed-in-suitcase-left-on-side-of-road-report-says.amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE=#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-confesses-to-slaying-new-york-woman-found-stuffed-in-suitcase-left-on-side-of-road-report-says

Some excerpts from the story:

"Illegal immigrant ex-boyfriend arrested in death of New York woman found stuffed in suitcase, report says"

Police on Tuesday reportedly arrested a man who previously dated Valerie Reyes, the woman whose body – bound at the hands and feet – was discovered last week stuffed into a large red suitcase dumped on a roadside in an affluent Connecticut town.

The Greenwich Police Department announced the arrest of an individual "believed to be involved" in Reyes' death. That same person had also "fraudulently used the ATM card” that belonged to her.

Multiple sources reported the man arrested is Javier DeSilva of Flushing, N.Y., who previously had a relationship with the victim. DeSilva is a native of Venezuela and “has been in the country illegally since overstaying his visa,” CBS New York reported, citing sources.

A source told the TV station the 24-year-old New Rochelle woman was “killed at her residence." The United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York is handling the case.

Valerie Reyes, 24, of New Rochelle, was identified as the body found in a suitcase in Greenwich, Conn., police said.  (Family photo/Greenwich Police Department via AP)

Reyes was identified last week as the person whose body was found jammed into a piece of luggage abandoned in upscale Greenwich, Conn. Reyes’ cause of death was not immediately clear.

Reyes' mother, Norma Sanchez, said her daughter -- who reportedly battled depression and anxiety -- became paranoid shortly before disappearing. She was last seen Jan. 29 and reported missing the next day.

VALERIE REYES, GREENWICH MURDER VICTIM, DESCRIBED AS 'HOMEBODY' AND 'MOST GENTLE GIRL'

“She was very scared, very frightened,” Sanchez told the Rockland/Westchester Journal News. “She didn’t mention anything or no one specific. She just said, ‘I’m scared. I’m paranoid, mommy. I’m getting anxiety attacks.’ She was having a hard time talking.”

Though she reportedly never told her mom who she feared, Sanchez said Reyes was clear about what she feared, telling her mom: “’I’m afraid someone is going to murder me."

Said Sanchez: "We wonder, 'Who made her feel this way?'"

Reyes, who worked at a Barnes & Noble in Eastchester, N.Y., planned to train to become a tattoo artist and liked to sing.

A service is scheduled for Tuesday night in New Rochelle.

TKDB

@Zombieguy1987

Why did you mark the below story with the irrelevant (!) symbol? 

"Illegal immigrant ex-boyfriend arrested in death of New York woman found stuffed in suitcase, report says"

Police on Tuesday reportedly arrested a man who previously dated Valerie Reyes, the woman whose body – bound at the hands and feet – was discovered last week stuffed into a large red suitcase dumped on a roadside in an affluent Connecticut town.

The Greenwich Police Department announced the arrest of an individual "believed to be involved" in Reyes' death. That same person had also "fraudulently used the ATM card” that belonged to her.

Multiple sources reported the man arrested is Javier DeSilva of Flushing, N.Y., who previously had a relationship with the victim. DeSilva is a native of Venezuela and “has been in the country illegally since overstaying his visa,” CBS New York reported, citing sources.

A source told the TV station the 24-year-old New Rochelle woman was “killed at her residence." The United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York is handling the case.

Valerie Reyes, 24, of New Rochelle, was identified as the body found in a suitcase in Greenwich, Conn., police said.  (Family photo/Greenwich Police Department via AP)

Reyes was identified last week as the person whose body was found jammed into a piece of luggage abandoned in upscale Greenwich, Conn. Reyes’ cause of death was not immediately clear.

Reyes' mother, Norma Sanchez, said her daughter -- who reportedly battled depression and anxiety -- became paranoid shortly before disappearing. She was last seen Jan. 29 and reported missing the next day.

VALERIE REYES, GREENWICH MURDER VICTIM, DESCRIBED AS 'HOMEBODY' AND 'MOST GENTLE GIRL'

“She was very scared, very frightened,” Sanchez told the Rockland/Westchester Journal News. “She didn’t mention anything or no one specific. She just said, ‘I’m scared. I’m paranoid, mommy. I’m getting anxiety attacks.’ She was having a hard time talking.”

Though she reportedly never told her mom who she feared, Sanchez said Reyes was clear about what she feared, telling her mom: “’I’m afraid someone is going to murder me."

Said Sanchez: "We wonder, 'Who made her feel this way?'"

Reyes, who worked at a Barnes & Noble in Eastchester, N.Y., planned to train to become a tattoo artist and liked to sing.

A service is scheduled for Tuesday night in New Rochelle.

TKDB

http://fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens

Drew Rosenberg, 25

Roberto Galo, an unlicensed driver from Honduras who entered the U.S. illegally but earned temporary protective status (TPS), killed Drew Rosenberg, a second-year law student, on November 16, 2010 in San Francisco, California. Rosenberg was riding his motorcycle when Galo ran over him three times with his car. Galo was convicted of vehicular manslaughter and sentenced to 6 months in jail. USCIS refused to deport him and he was released after serving only 43 days. Thanks to the Rosenberg family's activism, Galo was finally deported on April 4, 2013.

 "The number one responsibility of the federal government is to protect the citizenry. We have been betrayed by successive administrations who have allowed campaign contributions and votes to supersede that responsibility with the result being the deaths of tens of thousands of our loved ones. - Don Rosenberg, Drew's father"

Grant Ronnebeck, 21

Apolinar Altamirano, an illegal alien from Mexico, murdered Grant Ronnebeck on January 22, 2015 in Mesa, Arizona. Ronnebeck was shot over a pack of cigarettes while he was working his shift at a convenience store. Altamirano was out on bond from a previous conviction while ICE determined whether he should be deported when he killed Ronnebeck.

"My son's death was completely preventable. Obama's immigration policies cost my son his life. - Steve Ronnebeck, Grant's father"

TKDB

http://fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens

"Archive of Serious Crimes Committed by Illegal Aliens

2017

• August 2017 — Martel Valencia-Cortez, a human smuggler from Mexico, was sentenced to eight years in American Prison for assaulting a U.S. Border Patrol agent with a rock; he was also charged with three counts of human smuggling. Valencia-Cortez has been listed as one of the most dangerous human smugglers in the San Diego area. Previous to the most recent charge, Valencia-Cortez served three years in prison for human smuggling charges and was then deported back to Mexico. (U.S. News, August 29, 2017)

• August 2017 — Thirty three-year-old nanny Lidia Quilligana, an illegal alien from Ecuador, was convicted and sentenced to fifteen years in prison for the brutal torture and abuse of three small children. Nanny cam footage caught Quilligana burning the hands and legs of the three-year-old child as well as grabbing her by the hair and hitting her in the face. The torture was described as “sustained and depraved cruelty” by the District Attorney, and the judge admitted that the sentence nowhere near fit the heinous nature of the crime. Quilligana cited her own abusive childhood in Ecuador as justification for her actions. (Newstimes, August 22, 2017)

• July 2017 — Ariel Cuellar Guizar will face thirty-one years in prison for a collection of charges relating to his activities as a human trafficker. He has been found guilty of trafficking, pimping women out to prostitution, and the rape of a fifteen-year-old girl. Guizar will also be registered as a sex offender for life. (ABC7, July 20, 2017)

• June 2017 — Vanessa Hernandez, an illegal alien from Mexico, was sentenced to 100 months in prison for importing nearly 9 pounds of methamphetamine. Hernandez is expected to face deportation proceedings after she is released from prison. (ICE.gov, June 9, 2017)

• May 2017 — Illegal alien, Edwin Velasquez Curuchiche, has been sentenced to fifty years in prison after being convicted of two counts of producing child pornography. Specifically, Curuchiche has been charged with sneaking into the room of a six year old girl and filming himself molesting her while she slept. Originally apprehended entering the country illegally in 2013, the Guatemalan national never returned for his immigration hearing and was living in the U.S. illegally at the time he assaulted the child. (Tennessean, May 15, 2017)

• May 2017 — An Uzbek refugee serving 25 years behind bars for a plot to kill U.S. military personnel or civilians has been charged with stabbing the warden at the California federal prison where he was serving his sentence, prosecutors said Thursday. (Fox News, May 27, 2017)

• May 2017 — Pasqual Mendez, 24, of Morganton, was given an active prison term of 12 to 19 years for felony human trafficking of a child, assault on a female, interfering with emergency communication and statutory rape of a child less than 15 years of age (News Herald, May 23, 2017)

• May 2017 — Oscar De La Rosa-Mendoza, 31, of Mission — a Mexican citizen who wasn't lawfully present in the United States — pleaded guilty to driving while intoxicated, a Class B misdemeanor, on May 9. (CBS News, May 18, 2017)

• May 2017 — Carlos Santiago-Alvarez, 41, of Holyoke, was sentenced Monday to six to eight years in state prison followed by five years probation in a child rape case. (Mass Live, May 4, 2017)"

More crimes by the illegal aliens.

MayCaesar

@TKDB

Now you are arguing purely off the emotional appeal. I could take a similar position. I could say, "Deaths from lightning strikes are extremely dangerous, and we must spend billions dollars addressing that problem". You could say, "But wait, only around 30 people a year in the US die from that! This is nothing!" And now I will say, "Do you think it is nothing for those 30 people? You are pro-lightning strike deaths."

I have learned that there are 3 main problems with the modern societies:
1) People do not understand logic.
2) People do not understand economics.
3) People do not understand statistics.

In your case, 3) is the most glaring issue. You react disproportionally to things, based on the emotional environment the media created around them. Taking a deep breath and looking at the actual numbers calmly would tell you that you are chasing a ghost, but that requires some level of knowledge in statistics, which you seem to lack.

WordsMatter

@TKDB I never see you pull out all the specific stories with intimate details about the victims and perpetrators when we talk about police violence.

Are you maybe pro police brutality?

TKDB

@MayCaesar

"3) People do not understand statistics.

In your case, 3) is the most glaring issue. You react disproportionally to things, based on the emotional environment the media created around them. Taking a deep breath and looking at the actual numbers calmly would tell you that you are chasing a ghost, but that requires some level of knowledge in statistics, which you seem to lack."

What's disproportionately innacurate about the below? 

2,993 innocent people murdered by the illegal aliens? 

And then the 2,993 families forever affected by those same murders? 

When you use the word "ghost" are you maybe referring to spirits? 

I'm guessing that you wouldn't being trying, to use the word ghost, within the confines of this forum, where the word homicides/ murders are being conversed over now would you? 

Because that would be a disproportionate use of the word "ghost," now wouldn't it? 

"dis·pro·por·tion·ate1

/ˌdisprəˈpôrSH(ə)nət/

adjective

1. too large or too small in comparison with something else."

And then the 7,695 sexual assaults committed by the illegal aliens? 

You could reach out to a sexual assault counselor, and ask them what kind of counseling that a sexual assault victim goes through? 

Knowledge in stastics?

Like the $45.8 Billion dollars spent on the illegal aliens, and their US born children? 

The 2,993 homicides, that the illegal aliens have committed?

Along with the grief, that the homicide victims families have gone through, because of the illegal actions, of those illegal aliens?

2,993 families lives that have been changed forever? 

Same question from before:

Do you have any non black and white world view words, of condolences for those families?

The 7,695 sexual assaults, that the illegal aliens have committed?

Same question from before:

Do you maybe have any non black and white world view words, for those sexual assault victims? 

And this other statistic?

What's complicated about 300 illegal aliens a day, making an unlawful choice to illegaly come into the United States daily along the southern border?

That's 2,993 funerals, obituaries, and gravestones that 2,993 families went through an effort to plan because of the illegal actions committed by the illegal aliens? 

And again, ehat's complicated about this point of view? 

Those millions of illegal aliens, are basically hoping that another President is going to grant them all amnesty, again, aren't they?

Because cheap labor, apparently matters more, doesn't it, MayCaesar? 

TKDB

Being off topic: 

@WordsMatter

"I never see you pull out all the specific stories with intimate details about the victims and perpetrators when we talk about police violence.

Are you maybe pro police brutality?"

Nope, I'm pro community, pro family, pro law abiding, and pro IRCA law.

You have citizens each day across the country, shooting at one or another? 

A million plus crimes a year?

Race on race shootings, and the non race on race shootings?

What about those daily citizen on citizen brutalities? 

Isn't there more citizen on citizen violence, than there is police violence? 

What occurs more?

John_C_87

@TKDB ;

More crimes by the illegal aliens.

My grievance with you is simple TKDB the people who immigrate are not illegal aliens only unrecognized official ambassadors from Mexico, not meaning they belong to Mexico. (Three Counties in particular Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador account for the bulk of non-Mexican migrants arrested at the U.S. Mexico border. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stratfor/2017/05/02/whos-really-crossing-the-u-s-mexico-border/#6182f01d30c2 )

The truth is if these Countries do, or do not have embassies, or ambassadors stationed in the United States they still are not what you claim them to be, illegal immigrants, they are foreign invaders, or representatives of their Home Nation. The 2nd Amendment does not describe a person out of uniform, without gun the only qualification to militia of any crowd, or gathering to peacefully assemble, inside or outside the United States of America. We are to act as a President if you are a man, I take liberty as I presume so. The Constitutional translation is a woman would be Prasedera. As these are whole truths that place a single authority before the United States Constitution in debate with Congress as a state of the Union.

It is the House of Representatives that has gone on recorded for this accusation creator of the even being such a thing, illegal immigrant not foreign invader. As stated before the argument is safety, then over inoculations and medical recorded that have been set a precedent by states in the union, giving is the liberty of movement between States and Nations. The First Obligation to the people of the United State and people of other Countries is to issuer that any judicial tribunal, as special hearing, to take place. Has the luxury of Constitutional position as its own common defense, this would require that the panel not be comprised of licensed lawyers within the United States, if conducted about the United States. For this particular matter has judicial conflict of interest, being the outcome relates to judicial representation in a court of U.S. law for compensation of payment to them directly.

TKDB

@John_C_87

"My grievance with you is simple TKDB"

 "the people who immigrate are not illegal aliens only unrecognized official ambassadors from Mexico."

If those immigrants who came to the United States illegally, sorry, but they aren't unrecognized official ambassadors from Mexico, because they're illegal aliens.

(Those 2,663 murders, and those 7,695 sexual assaults committed by those illegal aliens, and you're choosing to use the phrase, "they aren't illegal aliens, only unrecognized official ambassadors fron Mexico," their committed sexual assaults, and murders, devalue your specific choice of words.)

Did you come up with the above quote, or are you maybe sharing it from another source? 

Why does it seem, that your article reads, like an apparent one sided opinion piece?

The first two paragraphs are very telling and educational, because they seem to lack any interview material, or quotes from anyone to have mutually told both sides of the illegal alien conversation that affects the country as a whole? 

"For all of Donald Trump’s tough talk on Mexico on the campaign trail, few concrete moves to secure the United States’ southern border have materialized in the first 100 days of his presidency. This is partly because of the inherent limitations of the office; to even begin trying to turn the ambitious pledge of building a border wall into a reality, the president would have to first secure the funding from Congress. So far, though, lawmakers have been reluctant to release any money for the project.

Yet while Trump’s vision of a wall has been too impractical to implement, there is one statistic the president can point to as a win on border security. Since his election in November, the number of illegal immigrants apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border has plummeted. In October 2016, U.S. Customs and Border Protection detained about 45,000 people there; by March, that monthly figure had fallen to 17,000. Both Trump and the Department of Homeland Security have touted this drop-off as proof that the president is already making good on his vow to tighten border security and stem the flow of illegal migrants from the south."

The phrases "tough talk, and touted" seem to speak to that type of article writing? 

There isn't a single individual mentioned in this article as a physical source, or one quotation from anyone either? 

John_C_87

 "the people who immigrate are not illegal aliens only unrecognized official ambassadors from Mexico."

It is a truth I see. This is not an intelligence exam so don’t make it into one. That is how injustice is created unconstitutionally. That is a basic principle by the way in case you want to compare truth. Also you are quoting an incomplete context. All people who cross the line between Mexico and America are not automatically made Mexican citizen by unconditional application of United States Law but are stepped blindly into America, by America.

Why does it seem, that your article reads, like an apparent one sided opinion piece? Honestly? It’s not my article it was chosen on the names of additional migrant countries only. As it is impartial to me in every way. My discussion is one sided that is why I started by addressing it as my grievance with you. Your grievance has been state in other post, by you. This is my truth.

"For all of Donald Trump’s tough talk - the flow of illegal migrants from the south."

Let me just say directly on everything between these two points, and the two points them selves, my truth is Executive Trump is not President yet, that of the United States of America in any way. Nothing personal, it is not an attack on him as an elected official, Executive Officer, he is doing what was expected from an Corporate Executive officer from my truth. The man has little or no past experience with constitution representation, at least that has ever been told or documented directly politically. This is my truth, though it may not be the whole truth, and nothing but truth. 

The phrases "tough talk, and touted" seem to speak to that type of article writing? 

There isn't a single individual mentioned in this article as a physical source, or one quotation from anyone either? 

I’m not here to critique writing, I quoted a line directly from that article, so it was cited for that use. Work had gone into gathering that little bit of info and it helped me, Credit given, were credit due.  

 (Those 2,663 murders, and those 7,695 sexual assaults committed by those X illegal aliens now accused Saboteurs, and you're choosing to use the phrase, "they aren't ( accused ) illegal aliens, only unrecognized official ambassadors from Mexico," their committed sexual assaults, and murders, devalue your specific choice of words.)

Laughing, Really? What good does adding the fabricated crime of crossing an invisible line in the sand do exactly in these matters, it does not sounds like a good defense to any really demonstration of constitutional authority in separation. There are some refinement of this state of the union needed, and don’t get me wrong as legal council is required as a part of oversight. This whole process needs constitutional alignment after decades of poor application of the said process. United States Constitution. This is not politics that game comes after all the grown up's have completed work.

TKDB

@John_C_87

You're entitled to your individual and various views.

And the depths of your words are educating me with a sadness.

But the crimes committed by those illegal aliens, their legacies of those crimes, again devalue your individual and various views.

Their victims, and the victims families, didn't deserve the sadness brought upon them, by those crimes, did they John_C_87? 

MayCaesar

@TKDB

You still do not understand my point. I do not know how to explain it in a way that you cannot interpret the wrong way.

Suppose I tell you that approximately 55 million people die each year. That comes down to roughly 150,000 daily deaths. Will you be horrified? You might be, looking at the raw numbers and imagining just how many it is.

But now I will tell you that today's world population is 7.5 billion people. And the above number results in 0.7% of the world's population dying every year, or 0.002% every day. Now, this cause a much weaker emotional response, does it not?

You keep talking about 2,669 murders and 7,695 sexual assaults - coming from all aliens, not just illegal ones, might I note - within 6 years. These numbers do not mean anything. 2,669 murders out of what? Compared to what? 

Your argument is baseless. You do not understand statistics, and you do not even understand the importance of statistics. You pull out some scary-looking numbers that make for an effective media headline, but you have not really thought the matter through logically.

TKDB

From Fox news:

"Fentanyl deaths from "Mexican Oxy" pills hitting Arizona hard."

TKDB

@MayCaesar

You are entitled to your individual and various views.

And I will not fence with you, over the crimes of murder or sexual assault, whether they were committed by some of the illegal aliens, or by some of US citizens, who are self created career criminals, sexual assault offenders, or first time offenders.

"Your argument is baseless. You do not understand statistics, and you do not even understand the importance of statistics. You pull out some scary-looking numbers that make for an effective media headline, but you have not really thought the matter through logically."

So by talking about the crimes by some of the illegal aliens, like sexual assault, murder, theft, and home robberies, you view the factual truth behind those crimes as scary? 

If neither the illegal alien criminals, or the US born career criminals, offenders, or first time offenders, didn't commit their crimes against innocent people to begin with, you wouldn't be pushing so hard with your individual rhetoric over the word (Statistics) now would you? 

The 2,663 murders, and 7,695 sexual assaults, are statistical facts.

But with those committed crimes, they created the statistics that follow those crimes, don't they? 

John_C_87

@TKDB ;

But the crimes committed by those illegal aliens, their legacies of those crimes, again devalue your individual and various views.

Here we go with the word illegal alien again. Please explain to me how these people are not simple ununiformed combatants? Well other then they have been automatically presented before by the House of Representatives before the United States Constitution by accusations, that in crossing an invisible line in the sand they poof are illegal?  

My view? No it is not my view, it is a process of constitutional separation made on the people enter a United States of basic principle and legal precedent as truth. Sanctuary states have made a claim by legislation that they can prove beyond a doubt that people who enter a Nation, perform acts of aggression, have not ever been, or would not be, now or in the past saboteurs and spies.

The debate between you and MayCaesar in its basic principle becomes the same argument. No constitutional separation needs to be made here, we got this on immigrants who cross between Mexico and America. The truth is you are both simply wrong, and are left debating statistic over the lack of protection to the common welfare, welfare of those people who live in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and Southern California. It is all created by a lack of Military United States Constitutional Representation, this is not necessarily say any lack of lethal force is to blame for the majority of actions, it is saying simply thee is no constitutional separation to be applied where it was greatly needed.

MayCaesar

@TKDB

We need to define some things here. You throw around terms like "statistical fact", but I am not sure you fully understand what these terms mean.

First of all, what is statistics? Broadly, it is the science of describing the world in probabilistic terms. Statistics studies observational samples and tries to derive meaningful patterns from them. You can, for example, randomly select 1,000 people from the population, learn how many of them drink coffee and how many do not - and then you can derive some statistical information, such as, "This sample suggests that, within one standard deviation, from 40% to 60% of all people in the population drink coffee".

"Aliens have committed 2,993 murders within 6 years in Texas" is not a very meaningful statistical information. It gives you the estimate of how many murders per year aliens commit in Texas - but that estimate, in turn, is not statistical. The fact that ~500 murders per year in Texas are committed by aliens is not a statistical fact, because it does not let you derive any probabilistic information. Information such as this: "What is the chance for the random Texan to be murdered by Aliens in 2019, based on the available data?"

When you talk about statistics, you talk about physically comparable quantities and relations between them. You do not talk about the number of murders per year; you talk about the number of murders relative to some other related number per year. 2,993 murders - compared to what? What statistical fact are you trying to derive from this? If the absolute number is where you stop, then you are not doing statistical analysis.

Statistically, we am interested in questions such as these:
"What is the probability that a random Texas rancher will be murdered by aliens throughout his/her life?"
"What fraction of all murders is committed by aliens?"
"If we take all aliens out of the equation, how much will the probability of a random Texas resident being murdered drop?"

You have not addressed any of these questions. Because, like I said before, you do not understand statistics. You do not understand what all these numbers are for and how they can be used to derive practically useful data. You just throw them out there and try to incite emotions in people. This will not work on me, or on anyone else who thinks about things logically, rather than emotionally.

Again, does the fact that 150,000 people die every day on Earth scare you? It definitely should, if a 50,000 times lower number - 3 murders a day - scares you.
If the answer is "yes", then your position is consistent, I will give you that - but it is not very reasonable, or pragmatic.
If the answer is "no", then your position is inconsistent and crumbles quickly upon a closer inspection.

TKDB

@John_C_87

"Here we go with the word illegal alien again. Please explain to me how these people are not simple ununiformed combatants?"

You can formulate your word choices however you choose to, but I'm not being persuaded by them.

The murders and the sexual assaults, along with the other crimes that have been committed by them, since the late 1980's, speak volumes of statistical history to me, more than your individually chosen words do.

Human trafficking, drug trafficking, the murders, the sexual assaults, the property thefts, the robberies, the personal experiences of some of the ranchers who live along the Border, those actions speak for themselves.

I wish you a good evening.

TKDB

@MayCaesar

Same thing:

You can formulate your word choices however you choose to, but I'm not being persuaded by them.

"We need to define some things here. You throw around terms like "statistical fact", but I am not sure you fully understand what these terms mean."

The murders and the sexual assaults, along with the other crimes that have been committed by them, since the late 1980's, speak volumes of statistical history to me, more than your individually chosen words do.
 
Human trafficking, drug trafficking, the murders, the sexual assaults, the property thefts, the robberies, the personal experiences of some of the ranchers who live along the Border, those actions speak for themselves.

I wish you a good evening.

TKDB

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/02/12/bay-state-mom-urges-president-to-hold-strong-on-border-wall/

NEWS 

CRIME & PUBLIC SAFETY

"Bay State mom urges president to ‘hold strong’ on border wall"

‘CAN’T FULLY FIND CLOSURE’: Maureen Maloney shows a photo of her son, Matthew Denice, who was killed in 2011 when Nicolas Dutan Guaman hit him with his truck and dragged him to his death

A Bay State mom whose son was dragged to his death by an illegal immigrant is urging President Trump to “hold strong” and keep pushing for the full $5.7 billion to build a wall on the southern border."

“I don’t want the president to give in,” said Maureen Maloney of Milford. “I don’t care how long it takes. We can’t lose more loved ones to illegal aliens.”

Maloney’s 23-year-old son Matthew Denice was killed in 2011 by an Ecuadorean illegal immigrant who was convicted of motor vehicle homicide and manslaughter and is now serving 12 to 14 years. She said the proposed compromise deal to fund just $1.375 billion for new fencing along the border won’t get the job done. Maloney will be on Capitol Hill in Washington D.C. on Wednesday with others who lost their loved ones to illegal immigrants in order to buttonhole members of Congress.

“I want to tell the Democrats, ‘Love America more than you hate President Trump,’ ” Maloney told the Herald. “I want the president to hold strong.”

Maloney will take part in a press conference at the Capitol with Women for Trump. She’s also vice president of Advocates for Victims of Illegal Alien Crime. On Wednesday she will try to speak to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) about border security.

“The Democrats need to listen to families who have lost loved ones. They need to hear us,” she said. “They need to hear from rape victims. They need to hear from parents who lost loved ones to drugs.”

Maloney said her son Matthew was an “amazing, kind and caring person,” breaking down as she spoke, briefly unable to continue.

Maloney is in D.C. with Bristol Sheriff Thomas Hodgson to advocate for more help for law enforcement — from a more secure border to tighter immigration controls — so other moms and dads won’t suffer the same heartbreaking fate.

“Some feel politics is more important than what we’re dealing with,” said Hodgson. “The problem of illegal immigration is not just on the border, it’s also on the interior. It’s destroying our communities.”

This article as well, is both educational, and very informative.

MayCaesar

@TKDB

How can they speak volumes to you, when you do not draw any meaningful statistical conclusions from them? You keep ignoring every argument people make to show you how your outlook is not validated based on the presented evidence, yet you still keep repeating the same mantra. 

Again, non-aliens have committed far more crimes than aliens have in any period you can possibly select. Why do I not hear you talking about that? Is it because those crimes do not speak volumes to you, since they are committed by your fellow Americans? But then, I remember you saying that you treat any crime as crime regardless of who committed it. So you are contradicting yourself somewhere.

If you want to make a more reasonable argument, then look at the crime rates per given population size, not raw crime numbers. The statistics is actually on your side here, and you will have an argument if you go down that path. It is a fact that aliens in Texas have committed disproportionally more crime, than non-aliens, and while the amount of that crime is still tiny, at least the evaluation of the matter of affairs in this case is subjective and there is no "wrong" or "right" opinion. But you are not willing to go that path. You are not willing to do a bit of math to fortify your position. Because, again, you are arguing based on emotions, not logic.

I have no difficulty agreeing with the claim that Mexicans as a whole are much more criminal than Americans. Mexico is one of the most criminal countries in the world, while the US is among the least criminal ones, so it only makes sense for the average Mexican arrival in the US to be more prone to committing crime, than for the average American-born citizen. I would be very surprised if the assumption here turned to be wrong; it would mean that people coming to the US from Mexico are in no way representative of the Mexican population as a whole, and exploring why this is the case would be very interesting.

The problem here is that our discussion is very far from that domain. You have not provided any degree of analysis that facilitates a productive debate.

whiteflame

@MayCaesar

Part of the problem is that I don't think he recognizes agreement. What @TKDB recognizes is that you have areas where you are challenging his assumptions, and what's crazy is that he only recognizes that you are challenging some aspect of his posts and not how you are doing so. What he reads of our posts is well below what I would deem to be the bare minimum - he never recognizes the substance of the points we present. That even makes imparting advice like you are attempting to provide, advice that does not fundamentally challenge his basic claims and provides him with some direction to better explain his argument, impossible. Much like his positions on this issue and elsewhere, he's black and white - you're either entirely in agreement with him, or you're not, and if you're not, you're wrong and a bad person.

It's strange because he posts so many of these articles, yet he makes no effort to understand much of what he's posting, taking numbers and little else from them. It doesn't help that, when the validity of those numbers is challenged or the source of his claims is questioned, he defers entirely to the writer of the very articles his arguments rely upon. However, maybe what's getting to me most of all is something I've never seen any debater do: when you challenge the basic assumptions that make his posts an argument and not just a scattered set of claims, he claims he hasn't made those assumptions and treats the sources he uses as entirely separate from his argument.

It's... kind of maddening to argue with him, as I'm sure you've noticed.

TKDB

@whiteflame

What do the below points of view, have to do with the theme of the forum?

"Are Americans Ok With Illegal Immigrants Coming Into Their Country?"

Your points of view seem to be focused on me, and not the forum?

Therefore you're off topic.

"Part of the problem is that I don't think he recognizes agreement. What @TKDB recognizes is that you have areas where you are challenging his assumptions, and what's crazy is that he only recognizes that you are challenging some aspect of his posts and not how you are doing so. What he reads of our posts is well below what I would deem to be the bare minimum - he never recognizes the substance of the points we present. That even makes imparting advice like you are attempting to provide, advice that does not fundamentally challenge his basic claims and provides him with some direction to better explain his argument, impossible. Much like his positions on this issue and elsewhere, he's black and white - you're either entirely in agreement with him, or you're not, and if you're not, you're wrong and a bad person.

It's strange because he posts so many of these articles, yet he makes no effort to understand much of what he's posting, taking numbers and little else from them. It doesn't help that, when the validity of those numbers is challenged or the source of his claims is questioned, he defers entirely to the writer of the very articles his arguments rely upon. However, maybe what's getting to me most of all is something I've never seen any debater do: when you challenge the basic assumptions that make his posts an argument and not just a scattered set of claims, he claims he hasn't made those assumptions and treats the sources he uses as entirely separate from his argument. 

It's... kind of maddening to argue with him, as I'm sure you've noticed."

TKDB

@MayCaesar

I wish you a good evening.

whiteflame

@TKDB

If you actually read what I wrote here (or, for that matter, basically anywhere on this forum or elsewhere), you might understand why I'm not engaging with you on the topic that you keep trying to argue. If you were actually presenting an argument here, and not just presenting a set of claims you refuse to support meaningfully, we would actually have an argument. You refuse to do so. As such, I refuse to engage with you in the absurd type of repetitive discussion you're trying to have.