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Why would an all evil diety exist, but not Jesus Christ, the all good God of the Bible?
in Religion

True, evile does exist, but so does Jesus Christ, the God of the Bible.

Zombieguy1987AlofRI
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  • If the devil is supposed to trick people to make them worship him wouldn't the best way to do that would be to convince the masses that he is the all good God?
    Zombieguy1987
  • @WordsMatter Can you prove that God is evil?
  • DeeDee 652 Pts
    @YeshuaBought

    Can you prove he’s good?
    Zombieguy1987AlofRIYeshuaBought
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    the bible says satan outsmarted god.....should not the good one be the smart one?
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7-2
    Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6@YeshuaBought
  • searsear 107 Pts
    “Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?” ― Epicurus (341-270BC)

    mickygZombieguy1987AlofRI
  • @mickyg ;
    Where in the Bible did Satan "outsmart" God?

    @sear
    Here's an interesting scenario. You are walking and you see an out-of-control train. You somehow have access to a switch that can change the way the train is going. You see a person lying on the train tracks. The person is severely injured and unable to get up. You switch the direction the train is going to run over the injured person.

    From here, it seems like you are a very bad person. But what if I told you that the direction that if you had not done that, the train would have killed many more people. This is known as the trolley problem.

    From the perspective of the injured person, you caused their death, so you are evil. However, once you know the whole picture, you know that your decision was the right decision.

    God knows all that will happen. He knows the best course of action.

    If you know about chess, then imagine you were playing against a master chess player. The master chess player decides to sacrifice one of his pieces. You might ask yourself, "Why would he/she do that? He/She is simply losing one of his/her pieces." Yet, if you knew what was going on in his/her mind, you would know that he/she has a plan for the future and chose this move because it is a good move.

    Even though we may not understand God's actions, we can trust that it is ultimately for the best.
    Zombieguy1987AlofRI
  • DeeDee 652 Pts
    edited March 20
    @anonymousdebater

    You say .....Even though we may not understand God's actions, we can trust that it is ultimately for the best

    My reply .... I remember reading about Joseph Fritzel who brutally raped and sodomised his own daughter for 24 years as he held her captive , this poor woman prayed to god for her 24 years for release from her never ending torment and I wonder what an all loving gods master plan regarding this was?

    How are children dying of cancer ultimately for the best? I’m sure you can think of many equally horrendous examples yourself. It’s bizarre believers sound exactly like supporters of Hitler , Stalin or Mao as in there is always Justification for the most appaling acts of depravity because ultimately it  was “for the best” 
    AlofRI
  • @Dee ;

    It is very difficult to say what would have happened in an alternate timeline and whether it would be "for the best" or not. For example,  claims that if the Black Death had never occurred, Europe would have looked very different, with major events like the Enlightenment being postponed.  claims that if Trotsky had come to power instead of Stalin, World War Two could have been the West (the Allies and even Germany) vs the Soviet Union.

    William Lane Craig has an interesting video on this (see ). He says that if it is possible that "God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting evil in the world", then the argument falls apart. He says that God's goal is to "bring the maximum number of people freely into his kingdom to find salvation and eternal life". He says that perhaps suffering is necessary to achieve that goal.

    Perhaps Joseph Fritzl's actions led people to God. Perhaps he will even repent someday. That does not make his actions ethical, but bad actions can be used for God's plans.

    Perhaps children dying of cancer causes them and their families to come to God.

    This video here:  is very interesting as it describes some of the key arguments and counterarguments. Not to say that I agree with him, saying "Still, despite this scriptural evidence, many theists are committed to God's omni-attributes" (there is clear evidence for God's omni-attributes in the Bible, but that is a very different debate).

    The arguments are presented here:
    1) Free Will requires that suffering exists.
    2) Good cannot exist without evil.
    3) Suffering is required to make us better.

    Zombieguy1987AlofRI
  • DeeDee 652 Pts
    @anonymousdebater


    Thanks for the links and videos 


    You say ......He says that God's goal is to "bring the maximum number of people freely into his kingdom to find salvation and eternal life". He says that perhaps suffering is necessary to achieve that goal.

    My reply ....I would expect this suffering to be a norm if an evil god was indeed the one Christians worship 

    You say ....Perhaps Joseph Fritzl's actions led people to God. Perhaps he will even repent someday. 

    My reply ....That’s great isn’t it repent on your last breath and you end up going to heaven yet an Atheist roasts in hell 

    You say .....That does not make his actions ethical, but bad actions can be used for God's plans.

    My reply ....So would god not “reward “ him” if indeed his plan was to bring people to him?

    Hardline Muslims use the very same logic 

    You say .....Perhaps children dying of cancer causes them and their families to come to God.

    My reply ...Well that’s a deeply immoral god you worship then

    You say ...Free Will requires that suffering exists.

    My reply ....why? 

    You say .....Good cannot exist without evil.

    My reply ....So when the world eventually comes to an end and god resides in heaven with the ones he accepts does he no longer exist or does evil exist in heaven?

    You say .....Suffering is required to make us better.

    My reply ....How did suffering make Fritzels daughter better? She was raped and sodomised for 24 years would you actually tell her it was necessary under gods plan to make her  better?



  • AlofRIAlofRI 247 Pts
    "It is full of interest, it has noble poetry in it and some clever fables, some blood drenched history and some good morals, a wealth of obscenity and upwards of a thousand lies."  Mark Twain

    "All Bibles are man made".  Thomas Edison

    "Do not consider it proof just because it is written in books, for a liar who will deceive with his tongue will not hesitate to do the same with his pen." Maimondes

    I believe what these men believe. I can't believe there is an "evil deity", such as "Satan", if I can't believe there is his opposite … just because someone wrote about them in a book.

    There is man, there is his mind, there is his compassion, there is his greed, there is his love, there is his hatred. Then, there is this "book" made by MAN.

    Man is the doer of good. Man is the evil deity. Man is what man is, not what Zeus made him …. or any other god.
    Plaffelvohfenanonymousdebater
  • Jesus Christ isnt god?
    Sovereignty for Kekistan
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    No jesus isn't god.For one thing he did not exist.But also jesus in the bible does not know when the end would come.@AmericanFurryBoy
    anonymousdebater
  • So you are telling me someone can rape and murder for 99% of their lives then accept Jesus as God on their death bed and they get into heaven (according to the Christian Bible) but I can cure cancer, give billions to charity, individually save 1,000 lives and because I'm an agnostic I deserve to burn in hell forever? What kind of god is that? Sounds more like a dictator to me.
    AlofRI
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1793 Pts
    edited March 21

    Perhaps children dying of cancer causes them and their families to come to God.
    I fail to see the appeal. If there is something after death (which there likely is not), then the last creature I would want to meet there is the one responsible for my death. The God letting me die of cancer so I could meet him? That is some twisted philosophy.

    The god inflicting suffering for the greater good is one of the strangest ideas in monotheistic religions. I can understand the concept of struggle making people stronger; a life that is too easy and painless makes us grow weak and capricious, which ultimately hurts us in many ways. But it only works as long as it follows the concept of "It will make you if it does not break you". When people just die without being able to do anything about it, then what is there to be gained from it? Someone was born, spent 6 years in excruciating pain and died - who benefited from it?
    AlofRI
  • @Dee ;

    You say ....I would expect this suffering to be a norm if an evil god was indeed the one Christians worship 

    My reply … But God isn't evil. He wishes everyone to come voluntarily to be saved from their sins. It's impossible to be saved from your sins if sin never existed.

    You say … That’s great isn’t it repent on your last breath and you end up going to heaven yet an Atheist roasts in hell 

    My reply … The first part is indeed true, as shown by the fact that one of the criminals Jesus was crucified with repented while he was on the cross, and Jesus said that he would go to heaven. As for the latter part, it requires a shift in perspective.

    Christianity Belief #1: The default state for people is hell. It may be difficult to grasp that. Imagine that your house had a flame in the basement that was spreading. If you do not do anything, then you will be trapped in the flames as the fire spreads.

    Christianity Belief #2: God is the only way to be saved. Even if you are a good person, if you do not trust in God, then you cannot be saved.

    Very unfortunate for good atheists. However, there may be some hope. Have you heard of Dante's Divine Comedy: The Inferno? I know a bit about it, but haven't read it entirely. There are various circles of hell for different crimes. For virtuous non-Christians, there is the circle known as Limbo. There is no punishment, simply not being able to enter heaven. Of course, Dante's Inferno is fictional, and there are some things that I do not agree with. But punishment proportional to the crimes is likely in hell. Perhaps virtuous atheists are in Limbo...


    You say ....So would god not “reward “ him” if indeed his plan was to bring people to him?

    Hardline Muslims use the very same logic 


    My reply... Just because a person is essential for God's plan doesn't mean that the person should be rewarded. Jesus said that about Judas, saying that even though Jesus must be betrayed to fulfill Scripture, it would be bad for the betrayer.


    You say .....Well that’s a deeply immoral god you worship then

    My reply … Why is that? See https://www.trusting-in-jesus.com/godreallylovesme.html


    I say ...Free Will requires that suffering exists.

    You say ....why? 

    I say … In order for free will to be meaningful, you have to know both the good and the bad consequences. Once you know what it is like to live in a world with bad consequences for some time, you can reject evil and choose to live in heaven.


    You say ....So when the world eventually comes to an end and god resides in heaven with the ones he accepts does he no longer exist or does evil exist in heaven?

    My reply … The evil is in hell now.


    You say ... How did suffering make Fritzels daughter better? She was raped and sodomised for 24 years would you actually tell her it was necessary under gods plan to make her  better?

    My reply … Nobody except God is knowledgeable enough to know everything that happened during that case. We cannot know whether she will or has come closer to God during that tragic 24 years.



    @AlofRI

    So, if you cannot believe the Bible since it is a book, you logically cannot believe any other book, to be consistent, or any written text for that matter. And if you don't believe any written text, then you should be a skeptic of every thing you see, every billboard, every sign.


    @mickyg

    Why don't you see this video: 

    It is a great video.


    @WordsMatter

    Everyone deserved to go to hell. When people sin, they are separated from God and cannot go to heaven. It is by God's grace that some people can go to heaven.


    If I was a billionaire and gave a million dollars to a few people, would I be a bad person? Clearly not.


    It seems that many people have a mentality that they deserve to go to heaven. However, that is incorrect. If you think about your life as an electronic device plugged into the wall. As long as you are connected to God, you are going to go to heaven. However, when you sin, you make a cut in the cord. Even one cut in the cord makes the cord unusable. And electronic devices, when they do not receive power, will eventually die. However, Jesus is willing to patch the cord together, if you will allow him to do so.


    AlofRI
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    yes its true.The gospels are anonymous and don't appear in history until 160ad.Now I predict some christian admin kicks me off before any  of you apologists answer my question.How come no one mentions the gospels before 160ad.@anonymousdebater
  • @anonymousdebater thank you for proving my point. There are billionaires that give millions to charity but aren't Christians so even though they are a good person you believe they deserve hell
  • @mickyg add to that the fact that the gospels included in the Bible has changed at various points. There are more gospels out there about Jesus that many Christians never mention.
  • DeeDee 652 Pts
    @anonymousdebater


    You say  … But God isn't evil. He wishes everyone to come voluntarily to be saved from their sins. It's impossible to be saved from your sins if sin never existed.

    My reply  ....But God isn’t good , any god that watches from afar a woman being raped for 24 years and who prayed to him daily for release only to be ignored is the essence of evil 


    You say … The first part is indeed true, as shown by the fact that one of the criminals Jesus was crucified with repented while he was on the cross, and Jesus said that he would go to heaven. As for the latter part, it requires a shift in perspective.

    Christianity Belief #1: The default state for people is hell. It may be difficult to grasp that. Imagine that your house had a flame in the basement that was spreading. If you do not do anything, then you will be trapped in the flames as the fire spreads.

    Christianity Belief #2: God is the only way to be saved. Even if you are a good person, if you do not trust in God, then you cannot be saved.


    My reply ....Yes , so Josef Fritzel can sit at the right hand of God in heaven if he repents but his daughter cannot if she understandably rejects god for ignoring her pleas for 24 years , you worship a Mafia Don “ Love me and I reward you deny me and you suffer for eternity “


    You say ....Very unfortunate for good atheists. 

    My reply ....What If Muhammad is the one true god or one of the many thousands put forward? That’s very unfortunate for you also 

    You say ......However, there may be some hope. Have you heard of Dante's Divine Comedy: The Inferno? I know a bit about it, but haven't read it entirely. There are various circles of hell for different crimes. For virtuous non-Christians, there is the circle known as Limbo. There is no punishment, simply not being able to enter heaven. Of course, Dante's Inferno is fictional, and there are some things that I do not agree with. But punishment proportional to the crimes is likely in hell. Perhaps virtuous atheists are in Limbo...

    My reply .....Yes I’m more than familiar with it , as a former Catholic I was educated by the Jesuit’s and learned most of these texts including the Bible through Classical Latin .

    Funnily enough the Catholic Church has done away with Purgatory , Limbo and the traditional view of Hell and I wonder how god let it be known that these changes took place 

    You say ... Just because a person is essential for God's plan doesn't mean that the person should be rewarded. Jesus said that about Judas, saying that even though Jesus must be betrayed to fulfill Scripture, it would be bad for the betrayer.

    My reply ....Well if Fritzel was essential to gods plan that means he hadn’t free will , you did say essential didn’t you?

    You say  … Why is that? See https://www.trusting-in-jesus.com/godreallylovesme.html

    My reply .....I guess you would tell Fritzels daughter that Jesus really loves

    You say … In order for free will to be meaningful, you have to know both the good and the bad consequences. Once you know what it is like to live in a world with bad consequences for some time, you can reject evil and choose to live in heaven.

    My reply ....So there’s no free will in Heaven?

    You say … The evil is in hell now.

    My reply .....Yes indeed , someone like me who has lived a decent life must reside in Hell because I was not convinced there was a god but Hitler who killed 23 million gets to Heaven if he said sorry on his death bed 

    You say … Nobody except God is knowledgeable enough to know everything that happened during that case. We cannot know whether she will or has come closer to God during that tragic 24 years.

    My reply .....So Fritzels daughter is raped for 24 years and Fritzel was as you claim “essential “ to gods plan and you’re suggesting this may have been to bring her closer to god? 

    She prayed every day for 24 years and god wants to bring her closer ?

    Yet I who don’t believe am totally ignored by your god , I often wonder is there anything Christians will not forgive their god of 


  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    JOB.....2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause

     although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause
     although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause
     although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause@anonymousdebater
  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    >There are billionaires that give millions to charity but aren't Christians so even though they are a good person you believe they deserve hell.

    There you go creating a position for the theist again. Anon didn't say that.

    The bible says we do not go to heaven because of good works. It says God set it up this way so that no one could boast.

    So called good works have nothing to do with whether one is worthy of heaven or deserving Hell.
  • AlofRIAlofRI 247 Pts
    @anonymousdebater ;
    No. I did NOT say you can't believe the Bible because it is a book. Many books are fact, many are fiction. The fiction ones are not there to be believed, they're there to entertain. When one takes them to seriously, they have a problem. Even books of fiction can teach us lessons, make us think about both good and bad. The Bible (IMO), is a great book of fiction and history, written (or compiled), into a book, by The Emperor Constantine centuries after the "facts(?)". A collaboration of myths, "interpretations" from stone plaques of two or more ancient languages, many of which were damaged, unreadable in spots, or papyrus "paper", hand written and often in worse shape. Did we interpret those old languages correctly?? Maybe.

    Since then the Bible has been written by hand many times. Ever make a mistake copying a huge document?? Translating to another language?? Translations are inherently inaccurate, especially in ancient languages that are hand written / chiseled / scratched / damaged. Fortunately, the printing press eliminates many of the likely mistakes / misinterpretations / unreadability / "this is what he musta' meants" of the past … centuries after what we believe to be the "facts".

    I believe the Bible is a book that should be read, thought about, but not taken as "gospel". It should not be on the same shelf with what man considers "fact", these many centuries AFTER the "fact".  (After the days when most people had a "god" for the sun, the moon, the ocean, the "crocodile"? etc.)


  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 469 Pts
    edited March 22
    @ethang5 wow thank you for reiterating exactly what I said. Anon said "If I was a billionaire and gave a million dollars to a few people, would I be a bad person? Clearly not." Establishing that they would be a good person. I said "There are billionaires that give millions to charity but aren't Christians so even though they are a good person you believe they deserve hell" saying exactly that, that a billionaire giving to charity is a good person, however because they don't believe in God they deserve hell. As Anon said "As long as you are connected to God, you are going to go to heaven. However, when you sin, you make a cut in the cord. Even one cut in the cord makes the cord unusable." Not accepting Jesus as God is a Christian soon.

    Please get some reading comprehension skills before you accuse me of misrepresenting someone's position. I showed you the quotes from both of our posts that are congruent. An eighth grader could understand it. I understand you have a personal dislike for me so you would like to find fault with anything I say but you're reaching hard here.
    PlaffelvohfenDeeAlofRI
  • DeeDee 652 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    You say ...An eighth grader could understand it.

    That certainly rules Ethang out 

    You say .....I understand you have a personal dislike for me so you would like to find fault with anything I say but you're reaching hard here. 

    He destests anyone whos not a bible thumper , I like most here have the troll on mute 
  • @WordsMatter ;
    Perhaps I misrepresented my position. Billionaires who give money to charity are good people by worldly standards, but by heavenly standards, they are sinful people.

    Naturally, we get our judgments of good vs. bad people from comparison to other people. People are "good" when they do more good deeds than the average person. People are "bad" when they do more bad deeds than the average person.

    However, God does not think like that. He does not think in terms of "good" person vs "bad" person. Everyone is sinful in God's eyes because we have all sinned. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

    Will billionaires who gave many millions of dollars to charity go to hell? Unfortunately yes. It is a case of a less sinful person going to hell over a more sinful person going to heaven who has accepted God's grace.


    @Dee
    First off, good link here: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/why-does-god-allow-suffering/

    You say.... But God isn’t good , any god that watches from afar a woman being raped for 24 years and who prayed to him daily for release only to be ignored is the essence of evil 

    God does not wait from afar and ignore her. Scriptural evidence shows that God shares her pain (see https://www.crosswalk.com/devotionals/daily-hope-with-rick-warren/3-ways-god-shares-your-pain-daily-hope-with-rick-warren-dec-24-2015.html). Christians do not worship a detached God, but rather a God that shares our feelings. God is compared to a good father, and good fathers are sad when their children struggle.


    You say ....Yes , so Josef Fritzel can sit at the right hand of God in heaven if he repents but his daughter cannot if she understandably rejects god for ignoring her pleas for 24 years , you worship a Mafia Don “ Love me and I reward you deny me and you suffer for eternity “

    My reply … To be more accurate, "I have sent Jesus to die for your sins. You have a choice: do you accept God's love and choose to be with him for eternity, or will you reject it and choose to reject God for eternity?"


    You say ....What If Muhammad is the one true god or one of the many thousands put forward? That’s very unfortunate for you also 

    My reply … It depends. I am not too knowledgeable on the thousands of different religions. In some religions, I would probably be fine. In other religions, probably not so much.


    You say ...Yes I’m more than familiar with it , as a former Catholic I was educated by the Jesuit’s and learned most of these texts including the Bible through Classical Latin .

    Funnily enough the Catholic Church has done away with Purgatory , Limbo and the traditional view of Hell and I wonder how god let it be known that these changes took place 

    My reply … I know that Dante's Inferno is a fictional book, but the important point is that hell will have consequences equal to the crime.



    You say ... Well if Fritzel was essential to gods plan that means he hadn’t free will , you did say essential didn’t you?

    My reply … God often hardens people's hearts. See https://reknew.org/2019/03/god-hardens-hearts-what-does-that-mean/. While God is loving and wishes for everyone to be saved, he is omniscient and knows that some people will simply never repent. If he knows that they will never repent, he will strengthen their resolve, as the article states.


    You say  .....I guess you would tell Fritzels daughter that Jesus really loves

    My reply … I have no relation to Fritzels daughter. It would be unfit for me to tell that to her as not family, friend, or pastor. If I was related to her, then maybe???


    You say  ....So there’s no free will in Heaven?

    My reply … There is free will in heaven. But people in heaven have experienced evil in their lives. Once they experience evil, they can choose to turn away from it and go to heaven, where there is no evil.


    You say .....Yes indeed , someone like me who has lived a decent life must reside in Hell because I was not convinced there was a god but Hitler who killed 23 million gets to Heaven if he said sorry on his death bed 

    My reply … I assume that when you mean "decent", you probably are comparing yourself to others or weighing the good and the bad deeds. To God, everyone is sinful, so you need to trust God to enter heaven. If Hitler did sincerely convert, he would go to heaven, but the conversion has to be sincere.


    You say.....So Fritzels daughter is raped for 24 years and Fritzel was as you claim “essential “ to gods plan and you’re suggesting this may have been to bring her closer to god? 

    She prayed every day for 24 years and god wants to bring her closer ?

    Yet I who don’t believe am totally ignored by your god , I often wonder is there anything Christians will not forgive their god of 

    My reply …

    Another link: https://www.allaboutgod.com/faq/now-that-im-thinking.htm

    I am indeed suggesting that God may have allowed her to suffer in order to bring her closer to God. God does not ignore anyone, he wishes for all to come to him willingly.


    @AlofRI

    "No. I did NOT say you can't believe the Bible because it is a book. Many books are fact, many are fiction. The fiction ones are not there to be believed, they're there to entertain. When one takes them to seriously, they have a problem. Even books of fiction can teach us lessons, make us think about both good and bad. The Bible (IMO), is a great book of fiction and history, written (or compiled), into a book, by The Emperor Constantine centuries after the "facts(?)". A collaboration of myths, "interpretations" from stone plaques of two or more ancient languages, many of which were damaged, unreadable in spots, or papyrus "paper", hand written and often in worse shape. Did we interpret those old languages correctly?? Maybe.

    Since then the Bible has been written by hand many times. Ever make a mistake copying a huge document?? Translating to another language?? Translations are inherently inaccurate, especially in ancient languages that are hand written / chiseled / scratched / damaged. Fortunately, the printing press eliminates many of the likely mistakes / misinterpretations / unreadability / "this is what he musta' meants" of the past … centuries after what we believe to be the "facts".

    I believe the Bible is a book that should be read, thought about, but not taken as "gospel". It should not be on the same shelf with what man considers "fact", these many centuries AFTER the "fact".  (After the days when most people had a "god" for the sun, the moon, the ocean, the "crocodile"? etc.)"


    It is good that you clarified that you did not believe all books to be inaccurate. See https://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/the-study-of-god/how-do-we-know-the-bible-is-true/is-the-bible-reliable and https://reasonabletheology.org/reliability-bible-4-quick-thoughts/

    Speaking of the Gospel, let's talk about the New Testament. To quote the first article, "In the case of the New Testament, we have thousands of complete manuscripts and multiple thousands more fragments available."

    So, there are many thousands of manuscripts to work off of. To quote the second article, "Comparing the incredible amount of manuscript evidence has shown that the New Testament is 99.5% accurate, and the vast majority of differences are in spelling or obvious and minor copyist errors. Most importantly, you should know that not a single variation in these thousands of manuscripts has been shown to affect a theological issue in any way. While there are undoubtedly differences among the manuscripts, we can have confidence that they stayed true to the originals because the copies themselves are so incredibly similar to each other, despite being written at different times and in different places."

    Still skeptical? This is what the process by which Biblical manuscripts were created would look like. Listen to an audiobook and write down exactly what it says. Have several other thousand people do it as well. Then have a small group, say around 40 people, look at your writings and translate them into another language. How far off would you be?

    Of course, there are going to be a few spelling and grammar errors. But significant errors will likely not be present. Likewise, if you look at the footnotes on a Bible, you will see that the details may vary slightly. There are some things, such as the long ending of Mark or the section about Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. However, the central doctrine of the Bible is not affected.

    In terms of reliability, the Bible is the same as what the early disciples intended. 

    AlofRI
  • @anonymousdebater "Will billionaires who gave many millions of dollars to charity go to hell? Unfortunately yes." I'm very curious as to why you say that is unfortunate. I would expect a Christian to think that is just and the way it should be. That is one of the reasons I turned away from Catholicism, I found it unjust that a good person wouldn't go to heaven simply because they didn't accept Jesus while a serial murder rapist pedophile will get in if they repent and accept Jesus the second they get on their death bed.
    AlofRI
  • Dee said:
    @YeshuaBought

    Can you prove he’s good?
    Can you prove Jesus is evil?
  • @anonymousdebater "Will billionaires who gave many millions of dollars to charity go to hell? Unfortunately yes." I'm very curious as to why you say that is unfortunate. I would expect a Christian to think that is just and the way it should be. That is one of the reasons I turned away from Catholicism, I found it unjust that a good person wouldn't go to heaven simply because they didn't accept Jesus while a serial murder rapist pedophile will get in if they repent and accept Jesus the second they get on their death bed.
    You haven't answered my question, hun.
  • @AmericanFurryBoy Disproven, Jesus is God. Even this nice man knows the Truth: 
  • @YeshuaBought
    The only evidence you use in your debates is this one man from an obscure YT channel. Also, if he were god, he wouldn’t have been crucified because he would’ve been all powerful and therefore could neither have died or been captured for any period of time. You follow?
    Sovereignty for Kekistan
  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    WM, I have no dislike of you, personal or otherwise.

    You said Anon said that they deserve hell. He did not say that. You assumed it. He said if your connection to God is cut, you cannot get the benefits that come with being connected to God. "Deservedness" was your spin on his position.

    You did misrepresent his position. You always re-state and misrepresent the positions of theists. You don't know that you do, so I'm telling you.

    When I find fault with what you say, it's because what you say has some illogic in it. I don't know you or care enough to dislike you.

    The fact remains, people going to Hell go there because they chose to do so by rejecting the alternative. What they deserve makes no difference.
  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    @Dee

    I predicted that your bile would not allow you to stay away. So as predicted, here you are, sniping like a yapping poodle at my heels.

    You have already been warned by the mod for your spamming and fake quotes. Be careful.

    >You say ...An eighth grader could understand it. 

    >That certainly rules Ethang out 

    Then this 7th grader knows what you stumbled over. I know why murder is immoral. You think its because you don't like it.

    >He destests anyone whos not a bible thumper , I like most here have the troll on mute.

    You are expressing what you wish. No one has me on mute, not even you. You desperately want me to interact with you. That is why you yap at my heels and stalk me all over the board.

    You thought by posting repetitive spam you could goad the mod into banning me. You were so sure, you started gloating about my coming ban. Instead, you got the warning.

    You had to abruptly stop the silly repetitive posts you were making. But I knew, and predicted, your bile would bring you back.

    I'm a good person, so I will still educate you if you ask. I can tell you why murder is immoral so you can leave you current circular argument behind.

    Let me know if you decide to alleviate you ignorance. But I won't hold my breadth.
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    The king of blather.Say THANG when you going to post an eyewitness account of jesus on earth.@ethang5
  • @ethang5 I'm reading between the lines not misrepresenting the argument. God is all good and always right, correct? God made the rule that if you are not connected to him you can't go to heaven. If God sends you to hell based on your actions, or in this case inaction, then that is right decision because God can't be wrong. To God, at the time of their judgement, that person deserves hell, because if they didn't deserve it God would never put them there or that would be a mistake, which is impossible to God.
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    You say you are a good person and will educate if asked.OKAY.....How come no one mentions the gospels until 160ad.All you need to do to shut me up is to post ANYONE mentioning the four gospels before 160ad. @ethang5
    ethang5
  • DeeDee 652 Pts
    @anonymousdebater

    You say ....

    God shares her pain (see https://www.crosswalk.com/devotionals/daily-hope-with-rick-warren/3-ways-god-shares-your-pain-daily-hope-with-rick-warren-dec-24-2015.html). Christians do not worship a detached God, but rather a God that shares our feelings. God is compared to a good father, and good fathers are sad when their children struggle.

    My reply .....

    So god shares her pain for 24 years by watching her being raped and all this to bring her closer even though she’s already a believer and  yet he leaves non believers alone without watching them being tortured for 24 years , how bizarre 

    You say … To be more accurate, "I have sent Jesus to die for your sins. You have a choice: do you accept God's love and choose to be with him for eternity, or will you reject it and choose to reject God for eternity?"

    My reply .....But I’ve never felt gods love so can I be rejecting it would god prefer I lied and pretended to feel it?

    You say … It depends. I am not too knowledgeable on the thousands of different religions. In some religions, I would probably be fine. In other religions, probably not so much.

    My reply .....But there are literally 1000’s Of belief systems where by not believing you also  will have to face the consequences so your chances are no better really than mine 

    You say … I know that Dante's Inferno is a fictional book, but the important point is that hell will have consequences equal to the crime.

    My reply .....First you have to there is an actual Hell 

    You say  … God often hardens people's hearts. See https://reknew.org/2019/03/god-hardens-hearts-what-does-that-mean/. While God is loving and wishes for everyone to be saved, he is omniscient and knows that some people will simply never repent. If he knows that they will never repent, he will strengthen their resolve, as the article states.

    My reply ....what a strange god you worship 

    You say  … I have no relation to Fritzels daughter. It would be unfit for me to tell that to her as not family, friend, or pastor. If I was related to her, then maybe???

    My reply ....Ok at least you’re consistent in your beliefs

    You say  … There is free will in heaven. But people in heaven have experienced evil in their lives. Once they experience evil, they can choose to turn away from it and go to heaven, where there is no evil.

    My reply .....But you did say evil was necessary for there to be free well but if there none in heaven how can there be free will?

    You say … I assume that when you mean "decent", you probably are comparing yourself to others or weighing the good and the bad deeds. To God, everyone is sinful, so you need to trust God to enter heaven. If Hitler did sincerely convert, he would go to heaven, but the conversion has to be sincere.

    My reply .....So Hitler could get to heaven but I who never felt a gods presence or evidence for a god go to hell for being honest ....wow !

    You say ......

    Another link: https://www.allaboutgod.com/faq/now-that-im-thinking.htm

    I am indeed suggesting that God may have allowed her to suffer in order to bring her closer to God. God does not ignore anyone, he wishes for all to come to him willingly.

    My reply .....Well he ignored her for 24 years of suffering and he certainly never made himself known to me or others ,I cannot pretend and lie which is what Christians want me to do.

    So seriously how would I get your god to be known to me? Also if your were a priest or preacher would you prefer me to be honest in saying I never felt his presence or dishonest and pretend I have?


  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    @mickyg

    >You say you are a good person and will educate if asked.

    I will educate only those willing to learn. Trolls and militants get the bums rush.

    >OKAY.....How come no one mentions the gospels until 160ad.

    You are uneducated. The earliest copies of the gospels are dated at 160 a.d. But those copies come from an older original.

    There was a time when we had not found any ancient copies of the bible. But we keep finding older and older copies, and atheists have to keep backing down.

    The first century was not a time of literacy. No one could read. Only a few copies were made. And those copies would only have been made as eyewitnesses started to die away, say about a hundred years later.

    Do you think there was a Kinkos on every corner? Or a CNN on TV?

    And the older the time, the fewer the copies, thus the less the chance that it would survive, and the less the chance we would find it.

    The weather and the constant wars were not good for preserving written material. There was no paper. No climate controlled libraries. Your very question screams out your ignorance.

    >All you need to do to shut me up is to post ANYONE mentioning the four gospels before 160ad.

    You mean, FIND anyone mentioning the four gospels before 160 a.d. don't you?

    99% of material written back then did not survive to today, 2,000 years later. And of the 1% that survive, only about 1% has been found. Think a little.

    Posting earlier mentions would prove nothing, because you think, (since you are illiterate,) that the current earliest found copies mean there was nothing earlier. Copies come from originals, or other copies.

    Finally, no gospel can predate Jesus. It is understandable given the technology and literacy of the time, that surviving copies would not be older that 100 a.d.

    Given the harsh climate, the violent history of that area, and the perishable nature of the writing medium, it is amazing that any manuscripts survived, and that they were found.

    >The king of blather.

    The one blathering is the one multi posting while being ignorant of the subject matter.

    >Say THANG when you going to post an eyewitness account of jesus on earth.

    Soon after you grow a brain.

    ie: never.

    But I could instead point you to the eyewitness accounts in the gospels.

    But sadly, that too requires you to have a brain.
  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    @WordsMatter

    >I'm reading between the lines not misrepresenting the argument.

    We post our arguments, there is no need for you to "read between the lines". The message is in the words posted, only your spin resides in between the lines.

    >God is all good and always right, correct?

    Yes. With the caveat that "good" does not mean, "what you like"

    >God made the rule that if you are not connected to him you can't go to heaven.

    True. Except that it isn't a rule so much as a natural law, as in nature.
    Gravity, for example, is not a "law".

    >If God sends you to hell...

    Slow your roll spinner. God doesn't "send" anyone to hell any more than He "pulls" them down if they jump off the empire state building. Hell, like falling, is the natural consequence of a natural action.

    You jump off a height, you fall. You jump off God, you hell. Natural as apple pie.

    >...based on your actions, or in this case inaction,

    No. If God is not "sending" you, then it is incorrect to assign intent to an action God did not commit.

    >...then that is right decision because God can't be wrong.

    Your wordplay is rendered moot when we take away the atheist spin.

    >To God, at the time of their judgement, that person deserves hell, because if they didn't deserve it God would never put them there or that would be a mistake, which is impossible to God.

    False premises make false conclusions. Watch.

    >"Because if they didn't deserve it, God would never put them there."

    What they "deserve" doesn't matter. God, because He is fair and just, MUST give them their free choice. One does not "deserve" or not "deserve" to fall.

    You jump, you fall.

    The bible says the wages of sin is death. Wages = Earnings from work performed. We earn death when we sin.

    Our default is Hell. If God wanted us in Hell, all He had to do was .....nothing.

    But He did do something. Yet we stupidly accuse the fireman holding the net below us of making us fall.

    Please. Just what I say. Don't rephrase, or restate, or "read between the lines". Ask questions if you are unclear or need more fleshing out.
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    Paul never says jesus is coming back.How can that be?@ethang5
  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    @mickyg

    First, why should Paul have to say Jesus is coming back? Are you aware that Paul was writing scripture and not a personal letter?

    For some reason, you assume he should have, but why you assume so is a mystery.

    But Paul did say Jesus is coming back. Many times. You are just ignorant of the bible and are parroting what you got from an atheist website.

    Those sites are notorious for being wrong. It is your right to be an atheist, but reject things you know. Don't reject things you know nothing of. That is dangerous.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1793 Pts
    @anonymousdebater

    Why do you presume to know how the god thinks? According to the Bible, if I am correct, the god's reasoning is above our ability to understand, and his plan is only accessible to the god himself. As such, what makes you think you know what principles the god abides by when deciding where the given individual gets sent - to hell or heaven?

    Perhaps the god is just a prankster who, every time someone dies, greets them wearing a clown mask, yelling, "Surprise!", and sending the person to exactly the opposite place he/she expected. Maybe that is all there is to the god's plan: it is just a one big joke, a way for the god to have some fun in his lonely existence.

    Monotheistic religions are full of contradictions, but one of the biggest ones is the discrepancy between the abilities they prescribe to the god, and the abilities of their followers. On one hand, they say that the god is so much beyond them, there is no point even trying to criticise the god's actions. On the other hand, they claim to understand god's reasoning when it comes to the individual's fate after death, even though not a single individual has come back from the afterlife to report on the results of the god's decision-making.

    It does not work like that logically. There are only two possibilities: either the god's reasoning is beyond you, or it is not. If it is, then you cannot possibly know what determines whether you end up in hell or heaven, and claiming that believers end up in heaven and everyone else does not is based on nothing but superiority complex. If it is not, then the god is just like any one of us, there is nothing special about him, hence he should be criticised just as much as any human is criticised.

    You cannot flip your stances whenever convenient while maintaining a steady logic in your narrative.
  • @ethang5 you talk like gravity, or falling to hell is out of God's control. God makes the rules of gravity, he makes the rules of how to get into heaven. He made a decision when setting up the rules. Will gravity pull you up or down? How fast? God decided.

    We have human laws like God has his laws, ours are fallible but they with the same way. We create a law defining what murder is, you murder you go to jail. We don't make the law just because that is the way it is, the law is made because you deserve punishment, or the victim deserves Justice for the murder. In this way God decided that the crime of turning away from him is punishable with hell, not because of some arbitrary roll of the die but because he explicitly decided that's how it works. If you jump you deserve to fall because that's what the rule of gravity states.
  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    @WordsMatter
     
    >you talk like gravity, or falling to hell is out of God's control.

    It is. If it was in God's control, no one would go to Hell.

    >God makes the rules of gravity, he makes the rules of how to get into heaven. He made a decision when setting up the rules.

    No sir. God did not make any decision for you by making the universe. Your decision for Heaven or Hell is yours and yours alone.

    >Will gravity pull you up or down? How fast? God decided.

    Still, the decision to jump was yours. All yours.

    >We have human laws like God has his laws, ours are fallible but they with the same way. We create a law defining what murder is, you murder you go to jail.

    By your logic, the govt. cannot morally send you to jail because they set up the laws.

    >We don't make the law just because that is the way it is, the law is made because you deserve punishment, or the victim deserves Justice for the murder.

    I agree. Remember I told you that going to Hell was not a law, as in a statute. It is the natural consequence of certain conditions. Falling is not a law. It is just the consequence of gravity and having mass.

    >In this way God decided that the crime of turning away from him is punishable with hell, not because of some arbitrary roll of the die but because he explicitly decided that's how it works.

    Not exactly. But I did not say it was arbitrary. If God makes gravity, and then matter, then falling is the natural consequence of those phenomena. He did not need to explicitly decide on falling.

    Sort of like shadows. God did not need to create shadows. Just creating light, and then matter, was enough, shadows naturally followed without God having to explicitly make shadows.

    >If you jump you deserve to fall because that's what the rule of gravity states.

    Then you have a different definition of "deserve" than I do.

    ....to have earned or to be given something because of the way you have behaved or the qualities you have

    We don't have to do anything to go to Hell. The bible tells us that we are already on our way there. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it.

    But the decision to refuse a way out is ours, and ours alone. God cannot be blamed for that.
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    I have said to you more than once that paul does not say jesus is coming back.However there might be one time.YET YOU HAVE POSTED NONE.Coward.@ethang5
  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    >I have said to you more than once that paul does not say jesus is coming back.

    I know. You often repeat your displays of ignorance.

    >However there might be one time.

    Lol. Really? That was big of you to admit. But if you had just asked instead of acting like an idiot, you wouldn't be looking like a dweeb now.

    >YET YOU HAVE POSTED NONE. Coward.

    I don't have to. My point is proven. You said there was no instance of Paul saying Jesus would return. You now admit you were wrong.

    Why do I need to post yet another verse? Has your claim been demoted to, "Paul only said once that Jesus would return?"

    Is that now your new claim?

    But since you were man enough to admit your error, here...

    1Co 15:23 - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Tit 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    1Th 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    You are so wrong about so many things about the bible and Christianity, its scary.

    You don't have to believe, but at least you should know.
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    Say ..I noticed you did not post PAUL saying jesus is returning.Paul ays jesus is coming not returning.HAW HAW HAW HAW..halfwit..
  • ethang5ethang5 150 Pts
    edited March 26
    @mickyg

    Say ..I noticed you did not post PAUL saying jesus is returning. Paul ays jesus is coming not returning.HAW HAW HAW HAW..halfwit..

    Lol. My bad. With "returning" and "coming" being opposites and all.

    >I have said to you more than once that paul does not say jesus is coming back.

    I would point out you are actually the halfwit -  if you had any wit.

    You were wrong, move on.
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    COMING BACK MEANS RETURNING.Returning means returning.Coming means for the first time.Yes its true.Paul Never says jesus is coming back.Paul never says jesis is returning@ethang5
  • mickygmickyg 82 Pts
    PAUL said jesus was not on earth so how can he be returning halfwit?@ethang5
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