Why would an all evil diety exist, but not Jesus Christ, the all good God of the Bible?

billbatard

YeshuaBought said:

True, evile does exist, but so does Jesus Christ, the God of the Bible.

if the bible is good ,why would there be evil at all?

billbatard

mickyg

PAUL SAID JESUS WAS NEVER ON EARTH .@ethang5

mickyg

OK its true the gospels are anonymous.That means there are zero eyewitness accoumt that jesus was ever on earth.@ethang5

mickyg

YES the truth of a story depends on who recites it.Every story goes back to the start to check veracity.You are too to check sources.@ethang5

ethang5

@mickyg

Stop multi posting loser. It makes you look like an .

If you won't answer my questions, I won't answer yours. Chasing me around the board like a yapping poodle will not change my mind.

Stop running. If you won't answer questions, get lost. This is a debate site.

mickyg

This is the last question you asked.

"Do you think the truth of a story depends on who recites it?"

I answered it.You are too to see it@ethang5

ethang5

@mickyg

I've asked you 5 questions in 7 posts, you've asked me 10 questions in 14 posts. I answered 3 and stopped when I saw you were the sort of militant who expected only his questions to be answered.

So now you've answered one of mine, I'm supposed to keep answering your lame questions?

You are still confused. I don't need you. I don't care what you think. I do not need to answer you, and I don't owe you.

You want my attention. It isn't cheap. Answer this question.

In 1432, what was the earliest known mention of the gospels in an ancient found copy of the NT?

After you answer that, try this. Why is the earliest known mention of the gospels different now than it was in 1432?

If you read it slowly several times, you might just get it.

mickyg

In 1432 ?I don't know.Modern bible scholars have access to all known ancient writing.And as it is today there is no known historical evidence anyone mentions the gospels until 160ad.In 1492 i doubt anyone doubted that the gospels were really written by MMLJOHN.@ethang5

mickyg

I believe i did answer your remarks.You are just too to grasp it.So we have made progress.So far you admit the gospels are anonymous and have shown zero evidence the gospels even existed before 160ad.THE oldest copy of a gospel is dated circa 200ad.
So here are three actual facts.
1.the gospels are anonymous
2.the gospels don't appear in history until 160ad
3.the oldest copy of a gospel is from 200ad.
Show me what YOU GOT MORTY..

@ethang5

ethang5

@mickyg

>I believe i did answer your remarks.

Not really. You didn't answer the second question.

>You are just too to grasp it.

If you were as smart as you think you are you wouldn't write at 3rd grade level.

>So we have made progress.

If progress is that you can type and breathe at the same time yes.

>So far you admit the gospels are anonymous

Where? Your dreams are not reality festus.

>and have shown zero evidence the gospels even existed before 160ad.

I don't have to show any evidence for something so . The earliest copy we've found is 160ad. That can change. That doesn't mean it did not exist before. This is why you couldn't answer my 2nd question.

>THE oldest copy of a gospel is dated circa 200ad.

That is the earliest found, not when it began to exist. The copy found is from an original, so whether the original has been found, we know it existed and that it predates the copy. Your brain should not be used only as a paper weight.

>So here are three actual facts.
1.the gospels are anonymous

Your imagination is not fact.

2.the gospels don't appear in history until 160ad

No, that is when the earliest copy was found, not when it appears in history. That date can and has changed as we have found earlier copies. Do you know the margin of error in the dating process?

3.the oldest copy of a gospel is from 200ad.
Show me what YOU GOT MORTY..

See above. You are just a poor thinker. And as all illiterates, you apply 21st century expectations to the 1st century. Silly.

All three of your so called "facts" fail.

mickyg

Oh so you know who wrote the gospels?Ok who wrote "luke"?@ethang5

mickyg

The earliest copy of a gospel is from about 200ad.Not 160ad.@ethang5

mickyg

No one mentions the modern gospels until 160ad.Before this nothing.After this historical commentary explodes.So either technology had a great leap in 160ad or they didn't exist before this date halfwit.
thousands of other document survived this period.JUST NONE ABOUT JESUS >
@ethang5

LeeAndreiAlcantara

@Dee


How did you know that she prayed for 24 years?

And if she did, how certain are you that she prayed right and to the one and onle True God?

shenanigans

What evidence is there that any God exists or that Jesus was the son of God.

Christians are aware that the Bible is littered with contradictions and fanciful stories.

Yet they still believe.

Dee

@LeeAndreiAlcantara

**How did you know that she prayed for 24 years?**

Because I’ve read detailed accounts of the case 

**And if she did, how certain are you that she prayed right and to the one and onle True God? **

Which god is the one and only true god?  Allah , Woton , Shiva?  How do you tell one god from another seeing as you suggest there more than one?

ethang5

@mickyg

Adddress my questions or gtfo.

If I tell you that when a copy was found is not "when it appeared in history", you can't simply repeat your dumb claim without addressing my point that when a copy is found is not " when it appears in history."

>The earliest copy of a gospel is from about 200ad.Not 160ad.

Tell us about your dating method that is accurate to within 40 years.

>No one mentions the modern gospels until 160ad.

Untrue and . When you find a copy of a text is not when the subject of the text was "mentioned". It is just the age of the text you've found. Older can be found. That has happened many times. You are just ignorant.

>thousands of other document survived this period.JUST NONE ABOUT JESUS

Most of the documents found from that time were commissioned by the authorities and were kept in official archives. Still, very few were found.

Why would we find documents about Jesus? Christianity was illegal. Christians were being arrested. Who would copies be written for? Where would they be stored?

Your expectations are irrational because you are ignorant.

So. Answer the questions in this post or I'll dismiss you for the clueless loser you are.

mickyg

Unlike you  I have read the bible .Paul does not say jesus is returning.In fact Paul said jesus was not even given the name jesus until after he was crucified .@ethang5

mickyg

you said...Most of the documents found from that time were commissioned by the authorities and were kept in official archives. Still, very few were found.

There are thousands of documents that survive .The lie that none survived is another christian lie.Thousands survive,just none about jesus.
The dead sea scrolls had 900 documents.NOT ONE MENTIONS JESUS>

Every year more of the mount vesuvius volcano explosion is uncovered.It happened in 70ad.
They have found countless artifacts and murals that survived.
NONE DEPICTING JESUS......

@ethang5

mickyg

you said>Tell us about your dating method that is accurate to within 40 years.
I don't date anything. I read books.
Tell me .....do you know what the dewey decimal system is?

You have google...for those too to know what a library is...so go to "gotquestions.org"  or some other lying site and find when the first time someone mentions the existence of the gospels.

I suspect you already have ...and found nothing to contradict me with....





@ethang5

mickyg

you said>Why would we find documents about Jesus? Christianity was illegal. Christians were being arrested. Who would copies be written for? Where would they be stored?
Well please show evidence that christianity was illegal and when?ANOTHER LIE!!!

Who would copies be for?????????????????????/WOWEEEEEE  SOOOO YOU ARE.
OK ...what were pauls letters for?



@ethang5

mickyg

you said> Untrue and . When you find a copy of a text is not when the subject of the text was "mentioned". It is just the age of the text you've found. Older can be found. That has happened many times. You are just ignorant.

Justin MARTYR IS the first to mention the gospels in 160ad.
The oldest copy is from 200ad.
I am shocked you didn't try to lie about the P52 PAPYRUS.



@ethang5

LeeAndreiAlcantara

@Dee

You weren't there. You don't know for sure. 

And the one and only true God is the Father (John 17:3,1 & Mal. 2:10 & Isa. 64:8)

mickyg

SAY LEE When you read the bible ..did you notice ..as i did...that the gospels are anonymous??.....and why do they not appear in history until 160ad?? @LeeAndreiAlcantara

Dee

**You weren't there. You don't know for sure. **

Yes that’s true, but you seem to claim you do know how’s that? Do you not think it’s bad enough the suffering the woman went through without branding her a ?

**And the one and only true God is the Father (John 17:3,1 & Mal. 2:10 & Isa. 64:8)**

You weren’t there when god said this .You don’t know for sure

The one and only true God is Allah ....Quran 

Dee

@YeshuaBought

Ahhh you cannot prove god is good why’s that?  Also I can prove your god is evil and make as good as case as any Christian can who says they can prove their god is good 

ethang5

@mickyg

>In fact Paul said jesus was not even given the name jesus until after he was crucified 

Silly nonsense. But since I've said nothing about names, I don't care.

>The lie that none survived is another christian lie.

I didn't say none survived. I said few documents survived. You don't have a clue about the ratio of the documents that survived to the total.

>Thousands survive,just none about jesus.

Stop being an . How do you know about Jesus if no documents survived? Were you there?

>They have found countless artifacts and murals that survived.
NONE DEPICTING JESUS.....

Why should they depict Jesus? Are you ?

>I don't date anything. I read books.

Lol. That is clear. And apparently you read as poorly as you write. So be quiet about dates, you know nothing. You don't even know how the date of 160ad was established.

>do you know what the dewey decimal system is?

Yes, but it's unrelated to our discussion.

>...the first time someone mentions the existence of the gospels.

No dummy, "the earliest copy of a document mentioning the gospel," not the first time someone mentions the existence of the gospels. Stop being ignorant.

>I suspect you already have ...and found nothing to contradict me with....

I've contradicted you on every one of your ignorant points. You're just too dumb to know you've been contradicted.

>Well please show evidence that christianity was illegal and when?ANOTHER LIE!!!

It's in the bible loser. And it's documented in Roman history. Right after the death of Jesus. Arresting Christians was Saul's job before he became Paul. And you claim to have read the bible from cover to cover? Yeah, someone's lying.

>Who would copies be for?????????????????????/WOWEEEEEE  SOOOO YOU ARE.
OK ...what were pauls letters for?

Don't dodge a question with another question. Paul's letters were not meant for Christians or Jews. And typing in all caps shows you to be a retard.

>Justin MARTYR IS the first to mention the gospels in 160ad.

Which means that the thing he mentions was earlier.

>I am shocked you didn't try to lie about the P52 PAPYRUS.

I don't mention unnecessary things. You're ignorant, so I don't want to confuse you any more than you already are.

The gospels mention Jesus. They are some of the documents from that time you say don't mention Jesus.

>Who wrote Luke?

D'uh. Luke wrote Luke, which is why it is called the book of Luke. We don't know who made the copies of Luke, but we do know who wrote each gospel. You are just ignorant and are unaware that you know nothing.

That you know nothing makes you ignorant, that you are militant makes you foolish. Sorry, but that is the truth.

mickyg

So who was luke?Tell me about him.
Where in luke does the authour say who he is?
@ethang5

mickyg

you said...It's in the bible loser. And it's documented in Roman history. Right after the death of Jesus. Arresting Christians was Saul's job before he became Paul. And you claim to have read the bible from cover to cover?


Once again.WHERE does PAUL say he persecuted christians.
It doesn't.
As you know the gospels and acts are anonymous and so are not eyewitness accounts.
Paul in galations says he persecuted the church of god.
Does not call them church of christ or christians.
No one knows what this church of god believed.

Why should anything in vesuvius depict jesus?
Vesuvius erupted in 70ad.Were there no christians in Italy by 70ad?
Well .DO you think everyone in vesuvius missed the sun going out for three hours?

Documented in romam history?ANOTHER LIE.Show proof .
A clue ..TACITUS is fake.
BUT USE HIM.I DARE YOU.

@ethang5

mickyg

PAPIAS said in 140ad that he preferred ORAL gospel over written.
Then he quotes an unknown gospel of matthew.
SO oral in 140 with false gospels and then 160ad JUSTIN quotes a modern gospel.
Do the arithmetic .

@ethang5

Sand

Satan is not an all evil diety, even though he protrays himself to be so. The Bible is not good verses evil. It is about the right to rule and motive.

mickyg

the bible is a poorly written myth@Sand

TKDB

Man can be evil on his own accord.

That's been proven since man first picked up a club, and killed another human being with it?

Rationalizing ways to pin evil on God, is how some of man self justifies, his evil ways by judging God, with their human mind, trying to bring God down, to an evil human beings level?

Some of man can fuss, cry, gripe, and throw a hissy fit, on the internet, because the internet has become a self serving justification device, in the hopes of vainly try to reduce God down to the anti religious individuals level? 

It's not going to happen, because some from within the confines of their individual human brain, aren't capable of seeing past their own human vanity?

The vanity of murder, mass murderers and their gun violence brutality, the vanity of some of the adults, teaching kids how to use illegal drugs, and so on?

Those kinds of evil, that are human created vanities, because some humans, are all about themselves, and their self created deeds, are their self judgements against themselves? 

Jesus, since before he died, and through his words, since he left, has in a sense, has been trying encourage humanity to better itself through his philosophies.

But you know what the problem is, everyday, you have human beings trying to vainly, one up God, and Jesus by trying to blame God, for the negative deeds that some humans do against themselves, and the rear of humanity, each day.

God, and Jesus, their philosophies, are "human made" vanity proof.

And this upsets the individual mindsets, of those vain individuals.

This is why God, and Jesus, get talked about and treated like they've been treated for centuries.

Man made vanity, its a sad, mindset choice.

You go into a Church, and its a shared fellowship of humanity.

A family of fellowship.

And some can't mindfully handle, that kind of a family.

And this is why all of the downplaying downtalk, occurs in the directions, of God, and Jesus.

How many Churches help out with the homeless?

Many help out with the homeless.

How many Churches help out with hunger? 

Many help out with Food pantries, and soup kitchens.

A family of fellowship, helping as much as they can.

mickyg

MORE BLATHER...do you think the volume of gets you to jesus?

Name one eyewitness of jesus



@TKDB

TKDB

@mickyg

"Name one eyewitness of jesus"

There are plenty of witnesses, they are in the Bible.

Unless you might label his disciples as liars?

I wonder, how many eyewitness have seen crimes committed by the criminals, and the offenders of various crimes, and in the process, God, and Jesus got the blame?

While the criminals, and the offenders, got a pass from those who maybe looked the other way?

Sand

The names of the disciples are in the Bible. These are the eyewitnesses.

Read your Bible.....

Mark 3:16-18, "And Simon he surnamed Peter; And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite," - KJV

@mickyg

mickyg

the gospels are anonymous and don't show up in history until 160ad
an "eyewitness"   is an account of a known person in a known place and time......not one gospel even describes jesus 



@TKDB

TKDB

@mickyg

Are you maybe jealous over the amount of attention that God, and Jesus have been getting for decades now?

Why did you not add a response to these fair and equal questions?

You dont seem to have an issue judging God, or Jesus?

But you remain closed mouth, over these occurrences?

I wonder, how many eyewitness have seen crimes committed by the criminals, and the offenders of various crimes, and in the process, God, and Jesus got the blame?

While the criminals, and the offenders, got a pass from those who maybe looked the other way?

Are you ok with a criminal or an offender having murdered their innocent victims?

Is that what you might be implying with your apparent silence? 

Yet, like before, your mouth is full of judgments towards God, or Jesus?

Why the hypocrisy? 

mickyg

lots of people are damaged and do bad things...

So jesus causes a ruckus at the Temple with the High Priests and Scribes

This could be special for the believers of jesus because the High Priests and Scribes can all write

The High Priests get jesus in trouble and he is gonna die

He dies

The sun goes dark for three hours there is an earthquake the Temple curtains get blown off

The priest are there

mathew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And NONE OF THE HIGH PRIESTS OR SCRIBES RECORD THIS IN ANY WAY

luke 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Then a bunch of DEAD people rise from their graves

mathew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose

The dead guys go into the city

mathew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

AND NO ONE WRITES THIS DOWN A N Y W H E R E

Pilate is still in town.SAYS NOTHING.

Pilate is right there at the crucifixtion

John 19:19

JOSEPHUS WRITES NOTHING ABOUT THESE EVENTS

Excuse me for one second

HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW.

@TKDB

TKDB

@mickyg

"lots of people are damaged and do bad things..."

Was God, or Jesus personally responsible for the below?

If you say yes, then where is your evidence to support your claims? 

On 9/11, this happened:

"2,977 people killed in the terror attacks of September 11, 2001 at the World Trade Center site, near Shanksville, Pa., and at the Pentagon, as well as the six people killed in the World Trade Center bombing in February 1993."

Was God, or Jesus, responsible for those deaths, or were the terrorists responsible? 

In Vegas, this happened:

"On the night of October 1, 2017, Stephen Paddockopened fire on a crowd of concertgoers at the Route 91 Harvest music festival on the Las Vegas Strip in Nevada. Paddock, a 64-year-old man from Mesquite, Nevada, fired more than 1,100 rounds from his suite on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay hotel, killing 58 people and leaving 851 injured – over 400 of them by gunfire and hundreds more in the ensuing panic. The shooting occurred between 10:05 and 10:15 p.m. PDT; about an hour later, Paddock was found dead in his room from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. His motive remains unknown."

Was God, or Jesus, responsible for those deaths, or was the mass shooter responsible? 

In Florida, this happened:

"Stoneman Douglas High School shooting

On February 14, 2018, a gunman opened fire at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, killing seventeen students and staff members and injuring seventeen others.[2][3][4] Witnesses identified Nikolas Cruz, a nineteen-year-old who had been expelled as a student, as the assailant. Cruz fled the scene on foot by blending with other students. He was arrested about an hour later in nearby Coral Springs.[5] He confessed to being the perpetrator,[6]and he was charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder and 17 counts of attempted murder. Police and prosecutors have not offered a motive and are investigating "a pattern of disciplinary issues and unnerving behavior", but Cruz offered several motives for the crime."

Was God, or Jesus, responsible for those deaths, or was the mass shooter responsible?

In Texas, this happened:

"Sutherland Springs church shooting

A mass shooting occurred at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, about 30 miles (48 kilometers) east of the city of San Antonio, on November 5, 2017.[1] The gunman, 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelley of nearby New Braunfels, killed 26 and injured 20 others. He was shot twice by a bystander as he exited the church. Fleeing in his SUV, Kelley crashed after a high-speed chase and was found dead with multiple gunshot wounds, including a self-inflicted shot to the head."

Was God, or Jesus, responsible for those deaths, or was the mass shooter responsible? 

mickyg

those people are responsible for their own actions.

BECAUSE....................................THERE IS NO GOD

@TKDB

mickyg

TELL ME how the sun could go out all over the world and only one man notice??
HAW HAW HAW HAW

AND where those zombies go?????????????????/
snikkkkkerrrrrrr

@TKDB

TKDB

@mickyg

"those people are responsible for their own actions.

BECAUSE....................................THERE IS NO GOD "

Did you interview God, and he told you that there is no such thing as himself, to satisfy your questions over himself?

Because if you can't get a real life interview with God himself, then you have no legitimate evidence to support your individual statement then do you?

Why should individuals have to defend God, Jesus, or Religion to satisfy your individual opinion?

Your individual mindset, is a byproduct of the internet being in existence.

Here's the evidence to support that point of view:

"those people are responsible for their own actions.

BECAUSE....................................THERE IS NO GOD "

mickyg

ARE YOU GOING TO explain why the gosp-els don't even show up until 160ad?OR is that beyond your comprehension?@TKDB

TKDB

@mickyg

I'm done playing your individual mindgame over religion in general, being that your fantasy, isn't worth wasting ones reality based time over your mindgame.

Why not use the internet to see IF God himself, will address your individual mindset games for you, himself? 

mickyg

why don't you admit you didn't know the gospels were anonymous and YOU can't find any reference before 160ad@TKDB

TKDB

@mickyg

Let me guess you're anti religious right?

You're not going to get many pro God, Jesus, or Religion answers on the internet.

The Man created God, called the Internet doesn't like Religion, as it was explained to me, a lot of the current Millinials would rather come to this artificial man created Church, instead of going to a real life Church, because the current genre of some of the other humans on the internet, sneer at going to an actual Church? 

So you can have your Internet God all that you wish, and maybe that God can help you with your quest?

I'm done with your mindgame.

mickyg

christianity is the worst evil to infect this planet.

The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews. 3,4

337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.

 

bullet 339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.

 

bullet 343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: "It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety." 5

 

bullet 367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

 

bullet 379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.

 

bullet 380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to God."

 

bullet 415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

 

bullet 415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

 

bullet 418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."

 

bullet 489 - 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.

 

bullet 528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court. 3

 

bullet 535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians." 3

 

bullet 538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that "From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians." 5 Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. 4

 

bullet 561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.

bullet 613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education

bullet 692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: "Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off." 5

bullet 694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their alleged responsibility for the execution of Jesus. 5

bullet 722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.

bullet 855: Jews were exiled from Italy.

bullet 1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.

@TKDB

TKDB

@mickyg

"christianity is the worst evil to infect this planet."

(The modern evils, that some humans, have infected the public with, for years now.)

Do you not have any negative words towards those humans who help with abortions?

You don't view abortions as evil? 

A million abortions are done, each year.

Are you OK with babies being aborted by humans? 

Or, what about murder, humans murder innocent people each year.

Are you OK with humans who have murdered other humans? 

You don't view murder as evil?

Or the mass shooters, who have killed kids, teenagers, and adults?

Are you OK with those humans having  murdered those kids, teenagers, and adults?

You don't view those mass shooters as evil? 

Or, maybe you have a beef with Christianity, God, and Jesus specifically, so you'll just continue to ignore the evils that some humans commit against other humans, to blindly enhance your individual beef?