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Should America Have Universal Healthcare?

Debate Information

Persuade me that America should have universal healthcare
HunterJuneau
  1. Live Poll

    Should America Have Universal Healthcare?

    11 votes
    1. Yes
      45.45%
    2. No
      54.55%
About Persuade Me

Persuaded Argument

  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    Ampersand said:


    Great commitment to your gimmick, posting fake and distorted information as if it were true.
    If you look at the references page, you will see that my sources are Hong Kong's government and Bloomberg's most recent rating of world healthcare systems. Source 3 references the Center for Disease Control and Prevention for the 30 minute emergency room average, as does source 4. In other words, the information I've posted is anything but "fake and distorted information." It is all information taken from credible reporting agencies.
    Reference 1 that "Hong Kong is hailed as the number one healthcare system in the world" is an article about the owner of an online computer game.
    Reference 7 that "The average wait time for knee and hip replacement surgery in the U.S. is 15 weeks." is an article which mentions how in the United Kingdom (e.g. a place with universal healthcare) the average waiting time is 15 weeks, not the USA.

    Those are the two most egregious and blatant errors, but the whole thing is pretty much irrelevant because the entire argument is based around:

    a) Cherrypicking a few random criteria with no actual analysis of which healthcare system is better

    b) Analysing these few cherrypicked points in isoloation with no understanding of healthcare systems, for instance how the greater accident and emergency time in countries with universal healthcare is linked to positive outcomes. A&E wards run based on triage systems where people are seen based on medical urgency. In all systems people with urgent conditions are seen first. In the USA there is a tendency not to seek medical aid for less urgent accidents due to the expense incurred, which doesn't happen in a universal healthcare system. The comparison isn't between people getting treated faster and slower, but people getting treated and people not getting treated at all.

    And of course it's impossible to discuss outcomes without taking into account USA's bloated super expensive system and that with the kind of things you bring up like hip replacement, we can see that the USA is actually horribly inefficient at delivering these kind of outcomes: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1063458414010449


    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987



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    Arguments


  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    I have the right to live.
    Zombieguy1987HunterJuneau
  • Zombieguy1987Zombieguy1987 471 Pts   -  
    I have the right to live.

    Wow... so persuading… 

    Healthcare is a SERVICE! not a right. the doctors who give you the healthcare need to be paid, and if the healthcare is free, then they'll be unwilling to work if they're getting no money

    YeshuaBoughtHunterJuneau
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @Zombieguy1987 This is MY body. I have the RIGHT to live.
    Zombieguy1987HunterJuneau
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    A healthy nation is a productive nation,
    A productive nation is a wealthier nation,
    A wealthy nation is a happier nation.

    This is the fundamental principle that guides the only 2 arguments below as there is no real need for more...

    1. It’s in the Constitution.

    It is the job of the president, the Congress, and the Supreme Court to, above all, uphold the charges set forth in the Constitution, which begins thus:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    A healthy nation favors domestic tranquility... Universal healthcare promotes general welfare... A more productive and wealthy nation can provide better & stronger common defense. 

    2. It’s pro-business.

    The current healthcare system is bad for businesses large and small. It’s bad for doctors, it’s bad for patients. The only business it’s good for is the health insurance business. 

    Founded on the odd mandate that employers should spring for health care, the current system puts a stranglehold on small business, the lifeblood of American innovation and ingenuity. How many would-be entrepreneurs decide not to start up a new business because of concerns about health care expenses? How many existing small businesses are not hiring more workers because of concerns about health care expenses?

    And it’s not just small companies. The current healthcare system almost brought down General Motors, long considered the bluest of blue-chip American companies, and one of the biggest corporations in the country. GM’s near collapse was not the result of decreased demand for American automobiles. Rising health care costs are what came this close to killing Detroit.

    One of the main reasons wages have been essentially flat since the mid-nineties is that any increase in employee compensation goes directly to covering increased healthcare premiums. Liberated from the shackles of the healthcare mandate, companies would be free to increase salaries and hire more employees. (Also, unwieldy unions, like the Teachers Union, would no longer have to trouble themselves with negotiating healthcare costs during collective bargaining—a win for everyone).
    YeshuaBoughtCYDdhartaZombieguy1987HunterJuneau
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen Apllause. That was more informative than my post.
    Zombieguy1987HunterJuneau
  • Zombieguy1987Zombieguy1987 471 Pts   -  
    @Zombieguy1987 This is MY body. I have the RIGHT to live.

    And you've yet to convince that universal healthcare should be a thing...

    YeshuaBought
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @Zombieguy1987 Because you are selfish.
    Zombieguy1987
  • @YeshuaBought
    Why do you need healthcare if you don’t even want vaccines? You are asking for the taxpayer to pay for your expensive a$$ complications due to the fact that you think that vaccines are bad? You are the epitome of a hypocritical  mooch.
    Zombieguy1987YeshuaBought
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @AmericanFurryBoy This is MY body, and I do not engage off topic trolls. You are one time out.
    Zombieguy1987
  • Zombieguy1987Zombieguy1987 471 Pts   -  
    @Zombieguy1987 Because you are selfish.

    How, exactly???

    do you have anything to prove it?

  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @Zombieguy1987 You are selfish because you would rather I die without healthcare than pay taxes.
    Zombieguy1987AmericanFurryBoy
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    The US already has universal healthcare. Anyone, no exception, is free to go to a hospital and purchase any services the hospital offers.

    Now, if we are talking about tax-funded universal healthcare, then that is a different matter. No country should have such a horrible and inefficient system, in my opinion. Let charity organisations, individual philanthropists and crowdfunding campaigns take care of purchasing private healthcare services for those who cannot pay for themselves.

    I, for one, am happy to be serviced momentarily upon needing a service. Had a horrible toothache come up once, and I was being treated just 40 minutes later. I do not know of a single public-funded healthcare system in which such efficiency is a norm, rather than an exception. Try pulling out something like this in Canada or the UK... If you are very-very lucky, you can be serviced the same day, but do not count on it.
    PlaffelvohfenCYDdhartaYeshuaBoughtZombieguy1987AmericanFurryBoy
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar This is my body, this is my right, for my body, I will fight. This my body, only mine, back off of me, we'll be just fine.
    Zombieguy1987
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    First, I've never seen you making a fallacy before and I'm pretty sure you know, that "universal healthcare" is NOT universal "offer of healthcare", you seem too articulate to actually believe what you wrote. And I thought intellectual dishonesty wouldn't appear in your argumentation... Random case of bad-faith maybe?

    Second, as a Canadian born individual, I can affirm that what you describe is patently false. 
    YeshuaBoughtZombieguy1987
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -   edited February 2019
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Part of my family leaves in Canada, and one of its members had to have a lot of her teeth fixed. I know pretty well how that system works; it is not quite the paradise some try to make it look.
    The US system is not perfect either, and it definitely is more costly than it should be - but it is pretty efficient, from my experience in both the US and a few other countries.

    I did not make a fallacy, I simply interpreted the term literally. People do not like to call things what they are, because it makes them sound harsh. Nobody wants to talk about healthcare which is based on forceful expropriation of money from some people to fund the services for other people, but "universal healthcare" sounds much nicer. I do not accept the softer language, I prefer to call things what they are.
    Zombieguy1987PlaffelvohfenAmericanFurryBoy
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    Part of my family leaves in Canada, and one of its members had to have a lot of her teeth fixed. I know pretty well how that system works; it is not quite the paradise some try to make it look.
    It must have been a long while since you've seen or talked to them... Dental healthcare is not covered in the Canada Health Act passed in 1984. There are programs but limited to children and it differs according to your province. 

    From this link: In Canada, general oral health is not included in the Canada Health Act (CHA). Most Canadians receive oral healthcare through privately operated dental clinics and pay for services through insurance or by paying it for themselves. Some dental services are covered through government dental programs.

    These arguments are annoying in the same way those of born again Christians are... Obtuse dogmatism & denial... 

    *sigh*
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I do not remember claiming otherwise. Not sure why you are trying to persuade me that the healthcare in Canada is not fully nationalized; I am perfectly aware of that fact.

    My argument was about its efficiency, which you did not address at all.
    Zombieguy1987
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    If you knew that, why bring up your relative's teeth story? This is TKDB's usual move...

    On efficiency, true we can do better, mostly in relation to some specific types of elective surgery, we definitely could open a bit more space for the private sector, I'm not against it, I know some are but meh... But if your life actually depends on it, it's very efficient. And no one goes bankrupt because of health issues.

    One can always find horror stories and failures in any system if they look hard enough. But overall Canadians are way better off than the US, the numbers don't lie... 

    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-healthcare-sweden-canada/
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -   edited February 2019
    @MayCaesar

    Whats the single biggest reason Americans file for bankruptcy?

      https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/05/01/this-is-the-no-1-reason-americans-file-for-bankrup.aspx


    Where I live if one is unemployed and receiving government welfare one is entitled to free medical care and medicines , I see this as entirely fair and progressive and what I would expect of a civilized society , if I was unfortunate enough to lose my job through another world wide recession or something else and needed a hand out it’s there for me .

    Incidentally if one is  seriously ill and needs an op it’s done whether one pays or not , if it’s not life threatening you go on a list but if you have health insurance it’s done right away, the system if far from perfect but it’s a safety net I’m glad is there.

    Incidentally I like every citizen of my country are entitled to a state pension the minute we retire which amounts to roughly €500 euro a week tax free between us with reduced gas , electricity and TV bills thrown , you get this along with any private pensions you have.

    I communicate with Americans over here every day in my business and they are astonished when they hear this , the biggest fear for most Americans is the fact they wil not have enough funds to fund there old age.

    How come a lot of Americans resist so strongly a fair system for those who are victims of unemployment , illness or poorly paid work, yet applaud when another billion  is spent on the military as we keep getting told how great their military is.

    Whats truly hilarious is when I hear “Christians” loosing the absolute cool at the idea of universal health care wonder what Jesus would do?

    This is a debate site we are here to debate my commentary is not a reflection on Americans who I think are mostly decent , kind human beings and I’ve lived and worked there and enjoyed it , my commentary is mainly about attitudes to different aspects of our societies we may speak the same language but are miles apart in our views of what we think is the ideal society.

    Incidentally last time on a debate site I aired my views on this topic I was rabidly attacked by mostly “Christian “Americans who called me Stalin and worse, I don’t anticipate such a reaction here but who knows☺️



    I’ve worked all my life but do not pay medical insurance and wouldn’t do so many who work also take that option, I’ve payed taxes on just about everything all my life , property tax , waste and refuse taxes , taxes on every purchase I make etc ,etc, our capitalist countries have money to burn and can easily afford a decent medical system 




    PlaffelvohfenPropagandaSlayer
  • @YeshuaBought
    I shouldn’t have to pay for you when you’re on your death bed due to the fact that you cant prevent the common cold.
    Zombieguy1987
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    Private sector healthcare is bloated, inefficient, immoral and unneeded. While you can make the case for competition being beneficial when you want a lot of choice - like what type of cake you want to eat - there's absolutely no-one who wants poor healthcare. No-one wants an insurance company to quibble ovr what's covered by your policy and face bankruptcy. We all value our health and both want and deserve a high standard of care.

    If private healthcare delivered better service there'd at least be an argument for delivering more, but there are a variety of obvious reasons why a consolidated universal healthcare system would be superior to the USA's broken private sector mess. just to toss out a couple of obvious ones:

    - It would do away with wasted money spent on marketing. Individual insurance companies can spend over a billion dollars a year on marketing. The catchiness of a TV jingle or the humour of Youtube video an insurance company hopes will go viral and get them more customers (and therefore more money) does nothing to reduce the cost of healthcare or help keep you healthy - in fact the opposite as it's money that could have gone on providing healthcare.

    - Economies of scale. The government already gets great savings on drugs, equipment , etc because Medicare is such a huge client for customers. Additionally it can get rid of redundancies like a hundred different insurance companies all having departments doing the same work which could be more efficiently handled under the aegis of a single organisation.

    This is why even right-wing think tanks doing their best to tear down the idea of a more public healthcare system have found that such ideas would save people trillions of dollars.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    @Dee

    I suppose everyone interprets the world "civilisation" differently. I see civilisation as mostly manifesting in two things: individual freedom and technological progress, in that order of importance. I do not see a system that suppresses the individual freedom for the sake of some "common good" as civilised; rather, I see it as return back to the Medieval times, when the "common good" argument was used as an excuse to control people's finances, and lives overall.

    The most successful nations in Earth's history have been: Phoenicians, Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, British Empire and the United States of America - and all of these nations stood out from everyone else by their relative respect for individual freedom and disregard of religious traditions, the latter telling them that they must share what they have with others because of some sacred duty they all have.

    Was Ancient Egypt civilised, on the other hand? People there were little more than slaves of the ruling regime, and even the pharaohs lived in the shackles of the totalitarian control the arbitrary system of strict rules imposed on them. I do not see it as civilised.

    What I see as civilised is this: a person is free to build their own life independently, and then to use the fruits of their labor to enjoy life or, if they so desire, to help others. If you want to help someone who urgently needs surgery and cannot afford it, and you donate your hard-earned money to them voluntarily - this is civilised. But if the Big Brother knocks in your door and orders you to pay up so that person can afford surgery - this is totalitarianism.


    A civilised system is one that finds a way to help its subsystems without imposing restrictions on them. Not the one that makes all of its subsystems directly controlled by itself.

    A civilised system does not need "safety nets", it instead lets people craft their own safety nets.
  • Universal healthcare pales in comparison to a privatized system.

    Fact: Hong Kong is hailed as the number one healthcare system in the world. [1]

    Hong Kong has a universal healthcare system that is overwhelmingly funded by the government.



    Fact: 
    Hong Kong's average wait time for emergency room care is 1 hour 42 minutes. [2]

    This is assuming the minimum possible government reported wait time for each hospital.



    Fact: 
    The average wait time for emergency room care in the U.S. is 30 minutes. [3]

    This is according to the C.D.C in 2014. In 2017, another study found that the LONGEST wait time was 53 minutes in Maryland. [4]



    Fact: 
    Hong Kong's lowest possible wait time for Cataract surgery is 9 months, and the lowest possible wait time for joint replacement surgery is 47 months. [5] [6]

    In 4 of the 7 territories in the reporting, the wait time exceeded 20 months for cataract surgery. 



    Fact:
    The average wait time for knee and hip replacement surgery in the U.S. is 15 weeks. [7]

    Once again, we see the private system blowing the public one out of the water.



    Fact: The U.S. Private System is the most efficient healthcare system in the world by treatment standards.


    References:
    [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-01/a-billionaire-forged-in-free-fire-the-fortnite-of-singapore
    [2] https://www.ha.org.hk/visitor/ha_visitor_index.asp?Content_ID=235504&Lang=ENG
    [3] https://health.usnews.com/health-news/patient-advice/articles/2015/05/08/enduring-really-long-waits-at-the-emergency-room
    [4] https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-flow/11-states-with-the-longest-er-wait-times-021517.html
    [5] https://www.ha.org.hk/visitor/ha_visitor_text_index.asp?Parent_ID=214172&Content_ID=214184
    [6] https://www.ha.org.hk/visitor/ha_visitor_text_index.asp?Parent_ID=214172&Content_ID=221223
    [7] http://www.opnews.com/2015/05/timing-knee-hip-replacement/11125
    Slaying propaganda with the facts.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  


    Great commitment to your gimmick, posting fake and distorted information as if it were true.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Ampersand said:


    Great commitment to your gimmick, posting fake and distorted information as if it were true.
    If you look at the references page, you will see that my sources are Hong Kong's government and Bloomberg's most recent rating of world healthcare systems. Source 3 references the Center for Disease Control and Prevention for the 30 minute emergency room average, as does source 4. In other words, the information I've posted is anything but "fake and distorted information." It is all information taken from credible reporting agencies.
    Zombieguy1987
    Slaying propaganda with the facts.
  • searsear 109 Pts   -  
    "Fact: Hong Kong is hailed as the number one healthcare system in the world. [1]
    Hong Kong has a universal healthcare system that is overwhelmingly funded by the government." PS

    And government is overwhelmingly funded by the People.

    Government can't "provide" the People anything it has not taken.
    PropagandaSlayer
  • Zombieguy1987Zombieguy1987 471 Pts   -  
    @Zombieguy1987 Because you are selfish.

    Wow.... Five star argument right here



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    Some rankings put the Cuban healthcare very high up. The healthcare where there are no dental anaesthetics outside Havana, where queues for many operations can be infinite (literally), where doctors are paid $50 a month and patients have to give bribes to get anything done, where women are forced into abortions as a part of the population control program.

    I think it is safe to say that healthcare rankings do not represent anything, other than the authors' views based on their fantasies.
    Zombieguy1987
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