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Free will is possible without sin
in Religion

To clarify I am an atheist who will be arguing that free will is still possible without sin. I brought this up because when I ask why god didn’t just create heaven I always get the response that he tried but we sinned due to free will and thus couldn’t have heaven. I now will attempt to debunk this rebuttal with my argument. I believe the concept of heaven disproves this. Here is my argument.

1. Heaven is a perfect paradise.
2. No sin ever occurs in heaven.
3. The people residing in heaven have free will.
4. Therefore, free will is possible without sin.
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Persuaded Argument

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1276 Pts
    Winning Argument ✓
    I can object to each of these notions. Depending on the exact religion, many of these terms can have very different meanings, so I will assume the most general interpretation.

    1. Heaven does not have to be a perfect paradise. It simply has to be a place that, by some standards, is better than Earth.
    2. My understanding is that Heaven is where people who have made up for their sins are sent. It does not mean that after that they cannot sin there.
    3. What if they do not? Maybe Heaven is like the Matrix, for example, where electric rods are stuck into our heads and they produce a virtual reality for us that is outside our control. In a way, they force us to think and act a certain way, even if we feel that these actions come from our own choice. Maybe we are plugged in such a matrix right now?

    Now, I do not see free will as possible based on the concept of determinism of the world. If there is no determinism, then our entire science crumbles, which is not good. But if there is, then everything that we do is always predetermined by our past, and, again, us acting our of our own choice and not because the chemical reactions in our bodies forced us to is merely an illusion.
    Regardless, I think your argument makes very strong assumptions about what Heaven is like, and as such I cannot agree with its conclusion in the general case.
    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987



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Arguments

  • @Pseudoscientific

    Out of curiosity, what christian denomination are you usually arguing with?  I was raised catholic and this was not an argument ( he tried but we sinned due to free will) I think I ever heard... People actually use this argument? Had I asked this question, "Why didn’t he just create heaven and call it done", I'd probably would have received a "stfu" statement of the special pleading variety. But nothing about He even trying anything before we "sinned".. Maybe it's a catholic thing?

    The "people in Heaven have free will" assertion... Seriously? They use that?  :no_mouth: 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 88 Pts
    @Pseudoscientific

    The #2 premise of your argument is false.

    Therefore, your conclusion is false.

    God did indeed create "a heaven" on Earth. Everything was good and perfect after creation. We choose the not good and not perfect.
    Zombieguy1987
  • DeeDee 234 Pts
    edited March 5
    @Plaffelvohfen

    > I was raised catholic

    So was I or the one true faith as they called it back home , to think there are over 30,000 denominations of this nonsense and not one of them agree with each other , whys that I wonder☺️
    Plaffelvohfen
  • searsear 101 Pts

    Free will is possible without sin

    The example Joseph Campbell PhD cites for this is a ground-hugging blossoming flower native to our arctic tundra. These blossoms tend to track the sun as it appears to travel through the sky.
    Campbell's comment: "You can't tell me that plant doesn't know where the sun is." And it's difficult to argue that accurately tracking the sun doesn't represent deliberate behavior. Where's the sin?

  • @MayCaesar I may have been making assertions, but everything I listed is things that I have heard about heaven. I will respond to all of the points you made.
    1. This does make sense, but it doesn’t undermine my argument. If it is similar enough to “God’s original plan” then it still works.
    2. While there would be no new restrictions on sinning people would be less inclined to do so. After all, heaven is supposed to be the place where good people who follow god go. I guess that sinning could happen in heaven, but at least at a much lower rate than on earth.
    3. This is the point I have the most problems with. First I don’t see what reason god would have to do that, although that is just an example. I have seen a lot of things from both sides of the free will argument, but since it is generally accepted as existing I am treating it as such in my argument.
    You do have a point with the sinning one, and it seems that it is the weakest link in the argument. I already have ideas to revise it to work though.

  • @Plaffelvohfen I definitely phrased that wrong. I am referring to how originally earth was a supposed “heaven” but due to sin and the devil this was changed. I can link this to other arguments but I want to stay on topic.
    I don’t usually know the denomination of christians I debate with, but it is a response I have heard multiple times and actually once more today.
    About what you said on the free will assertion, I don’t see a problem there. Although there are good arguments against free will the general consensus is that it exists, so if it exists on earth I see no reason It would not exist in heaven.



    Plaffelvohfen
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 183 Pts
    edited March 5
    @Pseudoscientific
    Although there are good arguments against free will the general consensus is that it exists, so if it exists on earth I see no reason It would not exist in heaven

    True, I understand that when you argue this, you grant them everything a priori (god, free will, heaven, etc), right? I won't even try to argue from their point of view, I would refute myself on too many points... lol 

    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 88 Pts
    @Pseudoscientific

    So the atheist makes a claim and posts an argument saying he will be debating his point.

    I tell him that his 2nd premise is wrong, rendering his conclusion wrong.

    What happens? Nothing. He doesn't argue. He doesn't address the criticism. So then, what is he here for? To just preach?

    And in a few weeks you'll see the same atheists right here on the religion board trying to advance the same bogus argument.

    How I wish there was a board where atheists would actually talk and address criticism.

    Maybe the problem is that there are no such atheists on any board. Does anyone know of any?
  • DeeDee 234 Pts
    edited March 6
    @Pseudoscientific @ethang5


    Ethang incorrectly states .......The #2 premise of your argument is false.

    My reply .....Your attempt to redefine Heaven to an Earthly one to misrepresent what the O P is saying and sadly typical for you anyway.

    Let me help you with a definition accepted by Christians worldwide .....

    Definition Heaven according to Christianity........

    In CHRISTIANITY , heaven is traditionally the location of the throne of God as well as the holy angels.In traditional Christianity, it is considered to be a physical place in the AFTERLIFE 

    Ethang  says .....Therefore, your conclusion is false.

    My reply .....Your attempts at deflection are appalling 

    Ethang  says ......Therefore, your conclusion is false.

    My reply .....Accept your correction and attempt a genuine argument 

    Ethang  says .....God did indeed create "a heaven" on Earth. Everything was good and perfect after creation. We choose the not good and not perfect.

    My reply .....No one but you is talking about heaven on earth 

  • DeeDee 234 Pts
    edited March 6
    @Pseudoscientific

    It’s a good argument I think it’s logically sound . let’s look at what the Bible says regarding the nature of heaven.............

     John 14:1-3 even says that Jesus is in heaven preparing a place for us to live. In heaven, those saved by God will have new bodies without the curse of sin! There will be no one who is blind, deaf or lame in heaven (Isaiah 35:5, 6 and Philippians 3:21). Although Jesus builds houses in heaven, the Bible also says that those saved will also build their own houses and inhabit them as well as plant and eat from vineyards (Isaiah 65:21). Most importantly, God will be in heaven and He wants to be your friend. He wants to dwell with you and wipe away all your tears (Revelation 21:1-4).


    The Catholic Churches traditional stance on free will in Heaven gives two options 

    Option 1

    God might change the nature of the will so that a person can only choose good. He removes its ability to choose evil.

    This does not mean removing all free will.

    One might, for example, be able to choose among different good options, but not any evil ones.

    This would be free will; it would simply be a different kind of free will than we experience in this life--a freedom to choose only among different goods.

     

    Option 2

    On the other hand, God might not change the will's fundamental capacity to choose either good or evil. Instead, he might place us in a condition where--although we could still theoretically choose both--we in fact never end up choosing evil.

    Why might this happen?

    A common suggestion is that when we have the Beatific Vision--when we have full awareness of God's goodness--the vision of good will be so compelling that we never choose evil.

    Impeccability

    In either case, the blessed in heaven would be impeccable--that is, not able to sin--either because of a change in the nature of the will or a change in the circumstances in which the will operates (or both).

    Precisely how this works is an open question. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes:

    Whilst the impeccability of the blessed appears to be unanimously held by theologians, there is a diversity of opinion as to its cause 


    This leads to many problems for the Christian as in ...... 

    Whatever the reason for the saints' impeccability, it raises a question for the problem of evil: If God can make our final state one of impeccability, why didn't he make our initial state one of impeccability?

    It would seem that doing so would be within the realm of God's omnipotence. That is, he has the ability to create beings that are confirmed in the state of good from the first moment of their existence.

    There doesn't seem to be a logical contradiction in the idea of God simply creating new saints in heaven who never lived on earth, and anything that doesn't involve a contradiction is something God can do.

    So why doesn't he?



  • ethang5ethang5 88 Pts
    @Dee

    >Ethang incorrectly states .......The #2premise of your argument is false.

    My reply .....

    Why are you "replying" me? Did I ask you something?

    Let me save you some trouble. Premise #2 says, 

    >No sin ever occurs in heaven.

    That is untrue according to the Bible. You are just ignorant.

    >Let me help you with a definition accepted by Christians worldwide .

    You think truth is what is "accepted" by the most people. I know better.

    Definitions are not needed. Sin has occurred in Heaven regardless of your definition. If you wish to debate religion, it helps to know the doctrine of the religion first.

    Ethang  says .....God did indeed create "a heaven" on Earth. Everything was good and perfect after creation. We choose the not good and not perfect.

    >My reply .....No one but you is talking about heaven on earth

    Because unlike ignorant atheists, I address the OP, not just gave a personal opinion.

    The OP asked, 

    >"I ask why god didn’t just create heaven I always get the response that he tried but we sinned due to free will and thus couldn’t have heaven."

    This obviously means, "Why didn't God just create a Heaven on Earth where we were?"

    You are militant, ignorant of Christian doctrine, and didn't read the OP.

    His premise is false. Satan disobeyed God in Heaven, and with a third of the Angels, made war in Heaven. He lost and was kicked out of Heaven.

    So saying that, "no sin ever occurs in heaven" is not true, regardless of which Heaven you mean.

    Pseudoscientific knows his argument is bogus, that is why he hasn't answered me.

    An education is more than reading an atheist website online DeeDee.

  • DeeDee 234 Pts
    Ethang exposed bullshitting yet again , read your Bible son.
    Poor Ethang all butt hurt because he missed his Klan meeting.You really ought to stop bullshitting it’s embarrassing I’m an authority on the book you’ve never read no sin is possible in heaven you claim ,you’ve lost again buddy .....



    The Bible describes heaven or the eternal state in great detail in Revelation chapters 21–22. Nowhere in those chapters is the possibility of sin mentioned. In fact, we have the promise that, in the eternal state, we will never experience death, sorrow, crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4)—the absence of those things is proof positive that sin is also absent, since those things are the product of sin (see Romans 6:23).

    The sinful will not be in heaven but in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). Nothing impure will ever enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). Outside of heaven are those who sin (Revelation 22:15). An Old Testament prophecy also assures us that the Kingdom of God will exclude sinfulness:
    “A highway will be there;
    it will be called the Way of Holiness;
    it will be for those who walk on that Way.
    The unclean will not journey on it;
    wicked fools will not go about on it. . . .
    But only the redeemed will walk there” (Isaiah 35:8–9).
    So, the answer is, no, it will not be possible for us to sin in heaven.

    God wills our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3); that is, He wills to make us holy and free of sin. Our sanctification has three phases: positional sanctification, which saves us from the penalty of sin at the moment of faith in Christ; progressive sanctification, which saves us from the power of sin as we grow in Christ; and complete sanctification, which saves us from the presence of sin as we enter the presence of Christ. “When Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). In other words, the process by which God sanctifies us involves justification, maturation, and glorification.

    The glorification that God promises His children (Romans 8:30) necessarily includes sinlessness, because sinful beings cannot be glorious. Heaven, the place of God’s glory, is sinless. Paul prays in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely” (ESV), and he links the glorious appearing of Christ to our personal glorification: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4). This glorified state will be our ultimate separation from sin, a total sanctification in every regard. It will not be possible for us to sin in heaven.
  • ethang5ethang5 88 Pts
    @Dee

    Good to see you not spamming and making fake quotes.

    >Ethang exposed bullshitting yet again,

    If you don't like me exposing you, stop bullsh*tying.

    >read your Bible son.

    I do. That is how I knew you were wrong.

    >Poor Ethang all butt hurt because he missed his Klan meeting.

    Lol. How impresses your atheist buddies must be of you.

    >You really ought to stop bullshitting it’s embarrassing

    Your embarrassment is your business. I don't care about it.

    >I’m an authority on the book you’ve never read no sin is possible in heaven you claim, you’ve lost again buddy .....

    Lol. I see you're the same kind of authority on the bible as you are on morality.

    Isa 14:12 - “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,[fn] son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

    Isa 14:13 - For you have said in your heart:
    ‘I will ascend into heaven,
    I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
    I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;

    Isa 14:14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’

    Isa 14:15 - Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

    Rev 12:7 - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    Rev 12:8 - And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Rev 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    All the verses you gave are talking about future events in heaven. But the OP said,

    > No sin ever occurs in heaven.

    Unless you think opposing God, lying to and perverting angels, and trying to take Heaven by force are not sins, you are dead in the water.

    Sin has occurred in Heaven.

    >It will not be possible for us to sin in Heaven

    That has nothing to do with what the OP said. He did not say it will not be possible for us to sin in Heaven, he said sin does not occur in Heaven.

    That is untrue. Satan sinned in Heaven. His premise #2 is false.

    That is why his conclusion is wrong. As I told you, an education is more than skimming an atheist website.

    OK, so you've tried the, "you're trying to change the definition of Heaven" silliness, and now the "there will be no sin in Heaven" ignorance. What's next?

    Read your bible before you reply.
  • DeeDee 234 Pts
    edited March 7
    @ethang5
    Yes I realise all the verses are talking about future events but the O P is clearly talking about future events as well as present events in point 3 so your “gotcha “ is irrelevant as are your bible verses where  mine support the position brilliantly as usual , I’m an acclaimed authority on the Bible as you obviously realise

    Can you never just post an argument without resorting to insult what happened to make you so bitter?

    3. The people residing in heaven have free will
  • ethang5ethang5 88 Pts
    @Dee

    >Yes I realise all the verses are talking about future events but the O P is clearly talking about future events as in point 3 so your “gotcha “ is irrelevant as are your bible verses where  mine support the position brilliantly as usual , I’m an acclaimed authority on the Bible as you obviously realise

    Lol. Not everything is a "gotcha" attempt. You think too negatively of theists.

    But my point is not irrelevant. Premise #3 says nothing about sin. It simply is not true that sin never occurs in Heaven.

    >Can you never just post an argument without resorting to insult what happened to make you so bitter?

    What insult did I gave you? You rudely post gifs on homosexuality to insult Jesus whom I love and you wonder about my bitterness?

    3. The people residing in heaven have free will

    I agree. The denizens of Heaven have always had free will. That is how come I know premise #2 is false.
  • DeeDee 234 Pts
    @ethang5


    You say .....Lol. Not everything is a "gotcha" attempt. You think too negatively of theists.

    My reply ....Lol .My wife and most my extended family are theists I actually have a very high regard for most , dbox is a gentleman and never a bad word with him I respect his honesty and openness

    You say ....But my point is not irrelevant. Premise #3 says nothing about sin. It simply is not true that sin never occurs in Heaven.
     My reply ....The O P is clearly talking about people in heaven now and the future 

    You say ....What insult did I gave you?

    My reply ....When one answers you honestly from the off you cannot resist firing off an insult , I get you detest atheists I don’t mind that if you play fair I wll but I think you prefer it this way

    You say ..... You rudely post gifs on homosexuality to insult Jesus whom I love and you wonder about my bitterness?

    My reply ....What do you expect. You’ve told me from the off “ you’re angry with god and keep repeating what do you expect in return?


    You say .....I agree. The denizens of Heaven have always had free will. That is how come I know premise #2 is false.

    My reply .....Premise 3 as I’ve demonstrated proves my point adequately 
  • ethang5ethang5 88 Pts
    @Dee

    >You say .....Lol. Not everything is a "gotcha" attempt. You think too negatively of theists.

    >My reply ....Lol .My wife and most my extended family are theists I actually have a very high regard for most , dbox is a gentleman and never a bad word with him I respect his honesty and openness

    I like him too.

    You say ....But my point is not irrelevant. Premise #3 says nothing about sin. It simply is not true that sin never occurs in Heaven.

    >My reply ....The O P is clearly talking about people in heaven now and the future 

    Then he should have said, people who go to heaven will not sin there. But that is not what he said.
    He said sin did not occur in Heaven. That is incorrect.

    >You say ....What insult did I gave you?

    >My reply ....When one answers you honestly from the off you cannot resist firing off an insult , I get you detest atheists I don’t mind that if you play fair I wll but I think you prefer it this way

    No I don't. I actually want a challenge. Faking quotes and spamming old posts is no challenge. I don't think you you know how to play fair.

    I don't hate all atheists, just the militant ones who come to religion boards to harass theists. O give those chuckleheads the bums rush.

    >You say ..... You rudely post gifs on homosexuality to insult Jesus whom I love and you wonder about my bitterness?

    >My reply ....What do you expect. You’ve told me from the off “ you’re angry with god and keep repeating what do you expect in return?

    Your gifs were first.

    >You say .....I agree. The denizens of Heaven have always had free will. That is how come I know premise #2 is false.

    >My reply .....Premise 3 as I’ve demonstrated proves my point adequately

    OK. I never had a problem with #3.

    The OP is wrong because of #2.
  • DeeDee 234 Pts
    @ethang5

    Your insanity is fascinating to watch ,  I often wondered  what sort of nut would vote Trump thank you for demonstrating the sort of whacko that does so , Trump is a compulsive liar , a racist and a bigot just like you .....oh and a “Christian “ bet Jesus would detest the pair of yous 
  • ethang5ethang5 88 Pts
    @Dee

    >Your insanity is fascinating to watch,

    Lol. You're multi posting, faking quotes, spamming the board, and reposting my posts as if they are yours, but I'm insane?

    Project much?

    >I often wondered  what sort of nut would vote Trump thank you for demonstrating the sort of whacko that does so , Trump is a compulsive liar , a racist and a bigot just like you .....oh and a “Christian “ bet Jesus would detest the pair of yous 

    Lol. Were you there in spirit when I voted? Or are you just fishing for something that will make me angry?

    I told you loser. I don't get angry. If you want to challenge me, show some sense. 

    You and I came to an agreement. I told you I agreed that #3 was true. You said #3 demonstrated your point, I had no issue with that, still you come back vulgar and childish.

    You do like this! No problem for me. I will roll with you for as long you want to be a dimwit.

    The only thing you can prove here is how long you can be a public fool. I have the strength, the will, and the balls to go with you.

    You can't be an angry atheist forever. I will outlast you.

    You may think I hate you. I don't. You are a product of your upbringing. I know lots of young men like you. Lost, angry, filled with angst.

    You will either run or actually communicate with me. So when you want to talk, we'll talk. If you just want to be a Bart Simpson, I'll treat you like a cartoon. Your choice.

    Insulting Trump. Lol. Out of left field funny.
  • ethang5ethang5 88 Pts
    @Dee

    Hello DeeDee,  

    If you ever want to know why murder is immoral, let me know and I will tell you.

    That way, the next time you talk about morality, you will be doing so from knowledge and not ignorance.

    Take care, and say hi to Joseph.
  • mickygmickyg 24 Pts
    the bible does not support free will.....@Pseudoscientific
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