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not just a bad person problem - a gun problem

Debate Information


this is the strongest piece of info in my argument... ive never seen a good refutation: 
-You can tell this is a gun problem, not just a bad person problem as the gun lobby says, also by comparing non-gun homicides of similar countries as the USA, and then adding guns to the mix: non-gun homicides are slightly on the higher side but within normal range, while gun homicides go wildly higher. If this was a bad person problem at its core, there would be a wildly higher amount of non-gun homicides as well, but that's not the case. Included is an article describing this phenomenon and a link with a picture. 
https://i.imgur.com/skcT8qr.png
https://www.reddit.com/r/gunpolitics/comments/71n1u2/gunnongun_homicide_rates_in_oecd_countries_for/
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/07/canada-gun-control-debate/566102/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_term=2018-07-28T09:00:12

here is some more gun control science that points to guns causing society problems: 

-where there is more gun control, there is less murder. this is the scientific consensus, as shown with the literature review. being a literature review makes this a lot more informing than just being a single study; we see the consensus forming. also included is a link to a poll of scientists but a literature review itself makes the claims even stronger.
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/gun-control-study-international-evidence
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-oe-hemenway-guns-20150423-story.html
-where there are more guns, there is more murder, across geographic regions from localities and larger. this is also a lot more informing because it a literature review of lots of studies. what's more, people are shown not to kill with other weopons instead of guns, as is often argued, because if they did there would be no correlation here.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/
-women are five times more likely to be killed if their significant other has a gun. this is a practical point in illustration of the guns v murders correlation. same in individual lives as general trends
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447915/
-you are more likely to be murdered if you have a gun, as well as those close to you
https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/160/10/929/140858
-States with more gun control have fewer mass shootings
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/433017-states-with-stricter-gun-control-regulations-have-fewer-mass?fbclid=IwAR0f5l5eW7d-rX4ZoE8R2MOe6VBvLJVrfQQRFwd2b7anlBIM_wgsYYx-uQk
-only around two hundred and fifty killings are done in the name of self defense per year. people like to pretend defense is such a huge thing, but the odds of being murdered is is closer to forty times higher. the odds of being shot and not necessarily killed are upwards of four hundred times higher. 
-we have half the worlds guns in the usa but a small percent of the worlds population
-Police are more likely to kill unjustifiably in low gun control and high gun areas due to their increased fear, and police are more likely to be shot themselves in those areas.
http://justicenotjails.org/police-shootings-gun-problem/
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/more-guns-more-dead-cops-study-finds-n409356
-Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. 
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries
-High school kids in the USA are eighty two times more likely to be shot than the same kids in other developed countries.
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2017.0767
-it is claimed that most murders are gang related, but this looks to be factually incorrect in the link. even if higher numbers floating around on the internet are true, our murder problem still there if you take out the gang murders from consideration. the numbers here can be arrived at with basic math. 
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-defilippis/do-we-have-a-gang-problem_b_5071639.html
-this really isn't just a mental health problem. we don't have more people with mental health problems than other countries.... just more people with guns.  the study controls for mental health factors v other factors. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur
-we dont have more crime than the rest of the world, just a lot more people getting shot and killed. you aren't more likely to be mugged here, for instance, but you are more likely to be mugged and shot in the process. again a gun problem. showing it's not just deviants being deviants as some suggest but an emphasis on the gun problem.
https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe
​-people like to say assault rifles are not that dangerous, because there are only a few hundred murders with them per year out of only around ten or so thousand of gun murders. the thing is though, the percent chance an assault rifle will be used to kill someone is significantly higher than the chance other guns will be used to kill someone. ///  you can do the math yourself. there are 2.5 million assault rifles in circulation. 374 rifle deaths per year. there are 11000 gun homicides. there's a gun for every person in the usa, 340 million. what's the math say? 374 divided by 11000 is 3.4 percent of deaths are from rifles. 2.5 milliion divided by 340 milliion is less than a percent. so what does this mean? despite rifles being less than a percent of guns, they cause 3.4 percent of deaths. that is, a rifle has a higher percent chance of being used to murder than a non rifle. most guns that are used in murder are hand guns, but assault rifles are more likely to be chosen over a hand gun when faced with that choice. just like, as an analogy, people are more likely to speed in a sports car, but most cars that speed are not sports cars.  
-people like to throw around number of defensive gun use. the idea is that not all defensive gun uses result in a killing. the most common number in literature is tens of thousands, though the number vary wildly. the only thing is, even if you are more likely to use a gun in self defense than being murdered, you are still more likely to be murdered than someone who doesn't have a gun. also, a lot of those thousands of defensive uses are not all that critical.... downplaying their significance. and, a lot of those 'defensive' uses were actually situations that were people instigating and escalating a situation that wouldn't otherwise exist, as the link below illustrates. even if we used the higher numbers, is it all that convincing that there are tens of thousands more near murders in a nation with already a globally disproportionate number of murders? it holds true, that we could give lots more people guns, and that may increase defensive use... but it would come at the cost of more murder, too.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use-2/
CYDdhartaZombieguy1987We_are_accountable
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  • billbatardbillbatard 133 Pts   -  
    its the guns
    CYDdhartaGeorge_HorseStarlord616Debater123
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • AmericanFurryBoyAmericanFurryBoy 522 Pts   -  
    There are more gun homicides because it is way easier to put a round of any size in someone’s head as opposed to knifing hem. This doesn’t mean its a gun issue. This means that bad humans have found an easier way to obtain their goals
    ZeusAres42Debater123John_C_87
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3435 Pts   -  
    How do you reconcile your claim that it is the guns that are the problem with the fact that in, virtually, every non-gun crime category the US is also way ahead of most other developed nations? Guns are hardly involved in, say, tax evasion, yet that crime is also much more common in the US.

    To me as a statistician, this means that, likely, the US culture makes people more prone to breaking the law. You see this in all areas of our life, from people speeding on highways all the time, to people building multi-billion financial pyramids.

    That is one of the consequences of being an individualistic society. Nobody said that it would be all roses, and for everything you gain you typically have to pay some price. We, freedom lovers, simply find the price we are paying as reasonable, given what we gain in return.
    In Japan, there is virtually no crime (with the exception of several major cities), yet I would not be thrilled to live there permanently. Here, I feel very comfortable, even if I have to deal with someone every now and then running a red light.

    If you want to reduce the gun deaths alone, then the best way to do it would be to institute a harsh totalitarian society and to jail everyone who likes the idea of lax gun control laws. If, on the other hand, you want to change the society for the better and tackle the general issue of crime, then you have to employ a more subtle approach. Of course, subtle approaches are not popular in politics, where the biggest gain is received by promising people that every single problem will be solved immediately, if only you vote for the particular politician. But politics is not everything, and there are ways to achieve your goals that do not involve voting for anyone.
    George_Horse
  • billbatardbillbatard 133 Pts   -  
    if you impose stricter gun laws violence of all sorts will reduce
    CYDdhartaDebater123
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1367 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:

    If you want to reduce the gun deaths alone, then the best way to do it would be to institute a harsh totalitarian society and to jail everyone who likes the idea of lax gun control laws.

    I doubt that would work.  Criminals, particularly organized crime and gangs, would welcome harsh gun laws, as that would make their "job" easier and safer.

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3435 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    It worked in Soviet Union, where almost all the gangs were eliminated by the totalitarian police, or recruited into KGB. If you have a full control over dozens millions people and can make them do whatever you want, eradicating some petty organised crime groups becomes pretty easy - especially when you yourself are the supreme crime group.

    It worked... If you do not consider all the gun executions... And labor camps.. And some other things... But, after all, those things were legal, so they do not exactly constitute "gun crimes", right?

    For that matter, why do we not just make it legal to murder people with guns? The gun crime problem will immediately be solved, as there will be none. At least, this reasoning seems to align with the OP's narrative.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3435 Pts   -  
    @billbatard

    Both the practical evidence, and the theoretical science, show the opposite. When you do not know whether your potential victim has a gun on them, you are more likely to stay your hand, than when you are fairly sure they do not.

    In addition, Switzerland and Israel have comparable gun laws to the US, but far lower violence rates, both in and outside the gun department (if you do not count the terrorist attacks Israel has to deal with every day). On the other hand, Russia and Honduras have far stricter gun laws, but much higher crime rates all around.

    So, is your assertion backed up by any reasoning, or is it just wishful thinking?
  • linatelinate 57 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    why isn't the non gun homicide in the usa wildly out of proportion? while the gun homicide rate is. if this is a bad person problem only, non gun homicides should be wildly out of proportion too. 
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1367 Pts   -  
    linate said:
    @MayCaesar

    why isn't the non gun homicide in the usa wildly out of proportion? while the gun homicide rate is. if this is a bad person problem only, non gun homicides should be wildly out of proportion too. 

    What do you consider "wildly out of proportion"?  Four times as many people were killed with knives and cutting instruments in 2017 than were killed with rifles (which includes assault rifles).  Almost twice as many were punched and kicked to death. 

    We_are_accountable
  • ApplesauceApplesauce 241 Pts   -  
    I don't have time currently to look at the stats so maybe someone can help out.  Do these stats when referring to number of homicides mean the number of dead people or individual murder instances?  Because that makes a difference.


    "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
    Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
    The Animals
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3435 Pts   -  
    @linate

    I do not know the scientific definition of "wildly out of proportion", but other homicide rates are also much higher than, say, in most European countries. Maybe not as much higher as the gun homicide rates, but nor should they be: it is much easier to kill a person with a gun than with a fist, for example, so it only makes sense that the vast majority of homicides will be performed with guns and not with fists.
  • linatelinate 57 Pts   -  
    ya'll need to look at this graph. the gun homicides are wildly out of proportion, but the non gun homicides are not. non gun murders are within range, but gun murders are many many times out of whack. there's no way this is just a bad person problem, and not a gun problem too.
     https://imgur.com/skcT8qr

    how do you explain that there are so many metrics that coincide with gun presence? police shootings, female partner shootings, overall murder etc etc. the long list in the opening post. 

    @MayCaesar
  • George_HorseGeorge_Horse 447 Pts   -  
    So if guns are SO bad, how should people protect themselves in the event that someone enters their home with the intent to cause harm?
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill

    We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.~Orson Welles
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3435 Pts   -  
    @linate

    The cultural differences in more violent cultures will lead to more people employing guns in their criminal activities, skewing the statistics respectively. This should be pretty obvious.

    There are countries in your list with gun laws comparable to those of the US (Switzerland, for example) with much lower fraction of gun murders, and there are countries with much stricter gun laws (Mexico) with comparable fraction. Simultaneously, the crime rates in Switzerland are much lower all around, and in Mexico much higher all around.

    Everything matches my hypothesis, and contradicts yours.
  • The basic principle in gun murders is death by bullet this is by far the easiest to prove in a Court. Something much more complicated like murders using chemicals as a weapon is much harder to prove in a Court of law for several reasons.

    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-op-0321-toxic-chemicals-20190319-story.html

    What else is not be described in a state of the union is that there is a trade to be made in choice of how to die. The vote is given to the public on reducing a likely event of shooting only. This is a excuse to not share the burden of lethal force equally within the union of whole truth and truth. At one time people fled the united States to escape draft which in turn was an illegal means to share the burden of lethal force equally as a nation.

    The United States Civil court are in process of legal reparation and compensation for use of lethal force. The United States Constitution and common defense to the general welfare sets a basic principle of own ship of a fire-arm, a gun, as necessary to secure liberty, it would describe a need to share by the ownership of gun the burden of negligence of lethal force. Constitutionally a police officer officers gun is  owned by the people that public must also own their own gun to share the burden of lethal force equally.


  • There is a state of the Union which has never been presented to the House of representatives in a proper fashion.


  • linatelinate 57 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    the non gun homicdes should be at least somewhat wildly out of whack. but they aren't. it's clear people are more likely to kill if they have a gun than they would have otherwise. also, think of any altercation that involves a gun... if things get heated, the instant nature of a gun means someone gets killed. it's not like that when there is no gun. also, think of how it's undisputed that people are more likely to kill themselves if they have guns.... if that's true, why isn't it the case that theyd be more likely to kill others if they have a gun? 

    this is all common sense. the statistics all corroborate my arguments and contradict all ya'lls. 
  • Starlord616Starlord616 209 Pts   -  
    So if guns are SO bad, how should people protect themselves in the event that someone enters their home with the intent to cause harm?
    With other non lethal weapons.
    George_Horse
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1367 Pts   -  
    With other non lethal weapons.

    What nonlethal weapons are as effective as lethal weapons?
    George_Horse
  • Mik3taMik3ta 9 Pts   -  
    billbatard said: if you impose stricter gun laws violence of all sorts will reduce 
    @billbatard most criminals that commit crimes with lethal weapons commit them with a non registered illegal weapon that was purchased off the black market, so if we are to have stricter gun laws whos to say that illegal weapons will still not be traded on the black market to commit violent crimes?
    Debater123
  • RickeyDRickeyD 716 Pts   -  
    31-years in law enforcement in the 4th-largest municipality in the United States and I never made one homicide where a gun killed or murdered anyone but I have made untold numbers of scenes where people killed or murdered another human being using a handgun or knife but the handgun and knife was simply an inanimate object until used to harm another. Hammers, screwdrivers, rocks, baseball bats, rebar, axes, hatchets, frying pans, steel-toe boots, motor vehicles, forks, rope, fire, slingshots, razor blades, bed sheets, beer bottles, are also inanimate objects used to assault, injure, murder, should we also ban these liberals?

    I find it hysterically hypocritical that an overwhelming number of communist "useful id--ts" that want to take away my 2nd-Amendment right to self-protection are deceived supporters of the Democrat Party which has a 50-year platform of espousing the murder of babies in the womb...hypocritical.

     
    Debater123
  • Starlord616Starlord616 209 Pts   -  
    its the guns
    its both. both need to change
  • Starlord616Starlord616 209 Pts   -  
    CYDdharta said:
    With other non lethal weapons.

    What nonlethal weapons are as effective as lethal weapons?
    none are as effective at killing but killing should not be your priority. simply to maim or define your self with a blunt object, mace spray or a taser.
    CYDdhartaGeorge_Horse
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1367 Pts   -  
    none are as effective at killing but killing should not be your priority. simply to maim or define your self with a blunt object, mace spray or a taser.

    Stopping the attacker from being able to continue the attack it the priority.  Mace, tasers, and blunt objects are not nearly as effective at accomplishing the task.  They are unreliable at best.
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    When you ask Americans why they need guns most say for protection yet when you ask “why? Is our society that violent you need a gun to stay safe “ they immediately do an about turn and stammer and stutter about living in a very “safe society.......blah , blah , blah 


    Debater123
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1367 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    When you ask Americans why they need guns most say for protection yet when you ask “why? Is our society that violent you need a gun to stay safe “ they immediately do an about turn and stammer and stutter about living in a very “safe society.......blah , blah , blah 



    There are criminals in even the safest societies.  There is no way to outlaw evil.
    George_Horse
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -   edited November 12
    Dee said:
    When you ask Americans why they need guns most say for protection yet when you ask “why? Is our society that violent you need a gun to stay safe “ they immediately do an about turn and stammer and stutter about living in a very “safe society.......blah , blah , blah 


    We also need guns to fight the government incase it gets tyrannical.
  • Dee said:
    When you ask Americans why they need guns most say for protection yet when you ask “why? Is our society that violent you need a gun to stay safe “ they immediately do an about turn and stammer and stutter about living in a very “safe society.......blah , blah , blah 


    Are you saying I may not be like other American males?
    Are you saying as men we cannot be placed in a united state saying that gun ownership is a way to divide the burden and weight of lethal force equally between soldiers, police, and civilians? 
    Are you saying the male who displays such an ability must be sexist because of such a man expects the same preservation of constitutional principles from all women given the right to vote Illegally?
    Are you saying a man displaying such ability should not be allowed to united women in the same way as they have been moved into an Armed service of Constitutional servitude? 
    Are you saying a man who demonstrates such abilities should not be allowed to reunite those women who do not deserve punishment with a better legal constitutional definition of the right to vote as women in a united state?
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -  
    @linate ;

    "only around two hundred and fifty killings are done in the name of self defense per year. people like to pretend defense is such a huge thing, but the odds of being murdered is is closer to forty times higher"

    This statement is absurd.  I guess you can only effectively defend yourself with a gun if you kill the perpetrator? The CDC claimed there were 500,000 to 3 million defensive uses per year.
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @Debater123

    What a great country you live in you  need a gun to defend your family against attack and to defend against the possibility of a tyrannical government you could be talking about one of the many African Hell holes ......did you ever think about moving?

    ”The land of the free “ ......LOL
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -   edited November 13
    @CYDdharta

    There are criminals in even the safest societies.  There is no way to outlaw evil.

    What a startling revelation , yes but unlike America we don’t need guns to feel safe. You live in a country where schools need armed security 
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • We_are_accountableWe_are_accountable 753 Pts   -   edited November 13
    @linate

    No matter what cherry picked numbers anyone comes up with, there is but one fact that matters...

    We do not base our Constitutional freedoms on homicide statistics. Constitutional freedoms and gun rights over ride any statistics you can drum up.

    There are many many risks in life. Do you know how many people are killed by drunk drivers? Do we restrict their weapon of choice, the car, from law abiding drivers? Do we put background checks on people buying alcohol in public places so as to keep alcohol out of the hands of repeat DWI offenders?
    WHY NOT? IT WOULD SAVE LIVES!

    I guess your convenience, when buying alcohol, supercedes alcohol back ground checks keeping alcohol out of the hands of repeat DWI offenders.
    Americans take our freedoms very importantly, and are willing to put up with higer risks associated with automobiles, alcohol, or guns.
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -  
    @Dee The reason so many European Jews right now are ashes is that they didn't fear a tyrannical government, you always fear the government, since it only wants to expand, and if it reaches the point where it's expanded too much, you fight back. The US is the best place in the world to live in right now, I can't think of a better place, Europe? Taxes are outrageously high along with huge regulations, Isreal? Too many anti-terrorist networks peeking over my shoulder. Japan? They don't have a military. South Korea? Don't know enough about it, but I don't speak the language anyhow, so no, the US is the best place to live in.
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 960 Pts   -  
    @Debater123
    A military is not necessary in our modern world, because nuclear weapons are a thing. Just look at Costa Rica, they’re absolutely fine and they don’t even HAVE a military.
    CYDdharta
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -  
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 Nuclear Weapons are still a military, also, both Japan and Costa Rica rely on the US for protection.
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -   edited November 13
    In case anyone wants a reference for gun crime:

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

     The sole rebuttal to any anti-gun argument.
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 960 Pts   -  
    @Debater123
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 Nuclear Weapons are still a military, also, both Japan and Costa Rica rely on the US for protection.
    OK, OK. My point is that in a world with nuclear weapons, major wars cannot happen.
    CYDdharta
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -  
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 No deterrent is 100% effective, but nuclear bombs come pretty damn close, so I'd have to agree.
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 960 Pts   -  
    @Debater123
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 No deterrent is 100% effective, but nuclear bombs come pretty damn close, so I'd have to agree.
    Okay. I kind of agree with you that we do still need a military of sorts, I just think it doesn't need to be as big as it is.
    CYDdharta
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -  
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 Sure, I support cutting our defense spending since we put WAY too much money into the military.
    xlJ_dolphin_473CYDdharta
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 960 Pts   -  
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 Sure, I support cutting our defense spending since we put WAY too much money into the military.
    @Debater123
    YES! Some of the money should go to the chronically underfunded education system, in my opinion.
    Debater123CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1367 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @CYDdharta

    There are criminals in even the safest societies.  There is no way to outlaw evil.

    What a startling revelation , yes but unlike America we don’t need guns to feel safe. You live in a country where schools need armed security 

    You may feel safe, but it's a false sense of security.
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    You may feel safe, but it's a false sense of security.

    Tell that to our police even they are unarmed , everywhere is not the US where one doesn’t fell safe without a gun .....I pity you 
    CYDdharta
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -  
    @Dee. Throughout history how many governments have become tyrannical...almost every form that has ever existed.
    I guarantee everytime it did the people wish they had a way to defend against it.

    Its not that we think our government is tyrannical, its that history has shown us government instrinsically tries to increase its power and influence.
    Debater123CYDdhartaStarlord616
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @Debater123

     The reason so many European Jews right now are ashes is that they didn't fear a tyrannical government, you always fear the government, since it only wants to expand, and if it reaches the point where it's expanded too much, you fight back.

    Nonsense 


    The US is the best place in the world to live in right now, I can't think of a better place, Europe?

    BS a country where you don’t feel safe without a gun ......


     Taxes are outrageously high along with huge regulations,

    I’m European a capitalist and virtually tax free I don’t pay for healthcare or education  all Americans do and get fleeeced for the privilege 

     Isreal? Too many anti-terrorist networks peeking over my shoulder. Japan? They don't have a military. South Korea? Don't know enough about it, but I don't speak the language anyhow, so no, the US is the best place to live in.

    US no way , dearest healthcare and education in the world everywhere you go local tax on your bill and a hefty tip on top give me a break man 
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers

    Its not that we think our government is tyrannical, its that history has shown us government instrinsically tries to increase its power and influence.


    Right you’d best stay armed if you feel so strongly about it 
  • Debater123Debater123 127 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    'The reason so many European Jews right now are ashes is that they didn't fear a tyrannical government, you always fear the government, since it only wants to expand, and if it reaches the point where it's expanded too much, you fight back.

    Nonsense '
    May I first ask if you are a holocaust denier, my good sir? And a bootlicker? When has a government tried not to expand?


    'BS a country where you don’t feel safe without a gun ......'

    I would feel safe without a gun, I just feel safer with a gun.


    'US no way, dearest healthcare and education in the world everywhere you go local tax on your bill and a hefty tip on top give me a break man' The US has some of the best healthcare and education because it's PRIVATIZED, I couldn't understand the rest(everywhere you go local tax on your bill and a hefty tip on top give me a break man), either there are too many typos(there are a lot), or you just didn't make sense.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 580 Pts   -  
    @Dee. Yes, well i believe thats what they mean when they say, learn from history and dont repeat the same mistakes.
    I think its pretty intelligent to assume we arent not special, and will be the first ones in history to keep their government from crashing a nation.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1367 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @CYDdharta

    You may feel safe, but it's a false sense of security.

    Tell that to our police even they are unarmed , everywhere is not the US where one doesn’t fell safe without a gun .....I pity you 

    Just because your police are disarmed doesn't mean it's a good policy, or even a popular policy.


    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountable
  • DeeDee 3002 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta ;

    Just because your police are disarmed doesn't mean it's a good policy, or even a popular policy.



    Why do Americans assume anyone who claims to be European is British , you truly are an insular ignorant nation 

    PlaffelvohfenCYDdhartaWe_are_accountable
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