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why should christians believe a literal noah story?
in Religion

By linatelinate 40 Pts

the writers of the new testament took the story literally, why should we? 

as a christian, i believe in miracles. but it's because of the way miracles are done that i dont believe a literal story of noah. when a miracle occurs, it holds up to scientific scrutiny. the story of noah does not hold up to scrutiny. there's no evidence for it, and in fact it goes against the evidence out there. 

why are there so many lines of humanity that appear to have evolved over hundreds of thousands of year?
how did kangaroos get from australia to the ark?
howd they fit so many animals on the ark?
why isn't there imbreeding given there were only two animals left?
why isn't there flood evidence?
why isn't there mass extinction evidence?
how did the fresh water fish survive living in salt water?
the list of flaws is endless. 
Zombieguy1987AlofRI



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  • linatelinate 40 Pts
    2 peter: "And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood. "
    AlofRI
  • DeeDee 1072 Pts
    edited April 16
    You say .......when a miracle occurs, it holds up to scientific scrutiny.

    My reply ......For a miracle to take place the known laws of the Universe have to be put on suspension for this miracle to take place , this has not so far happened so how can you state “When a miracle occurs , it holds up to scientific scrutiny?
    Zombieguy1987
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 2266 Pts
    Scientifically, two animals cannot form a stable population, no matter how much offspring they produce. I read a summary paper analysing how many animals are needed in the ideal conditions to form a population, and the final estimate was something on the order of "7 to 12".

    In other words, if the story of the Noah Ark had been true, there would be no animals on Earth today. Aside maybe from humans, but historically humans needed meat to survive, so they would probably go extinct as well.
    Zombieguy1987ethang5AlofRI
  • explain a priest blessing a tsunami with the eucharist and the tsunami just stopping. Just explain the tsunami stopping with science. it can't be explained.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 2266 Pts
    @kevin_burke

    Indeed, it cannot be explained, because such an event has never taken place in this Universe.
    Zombieguy1987AlofRI
  • @MayCaesar
    yes it has people pass it off as tall tales ill find it if you like
    Zombieguy1987AlofRI
  • Zombieguy1987AlofRI
  • Zombieguy1987AlofRI
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 2266 Pts
    @kevin_burke

    Of course it has. Folklore is full of wild storytelling, and for a good reason. That reason is not the stories having anything to do with reality, however.
    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987AlofRI
  • Fine if you don't believe that then explain how the body of Josephine Bakhita isn't decaying. The fact that this is true is undeniable.
  • What evidence would we find if there was a worldwide flood? we would find Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water, all over the earth. what do we find? we find just that. That is evidence of a worldwide flood.
    kevin_burkeZombieguy1987AlofRI
  • they should not its  a fairy tale oin many reglions and has been debunked
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • @kevin_burke you cant be serious? how much crap fills your brain?
    AlofRI
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

  • DeeDee 1072 Pts
    @kevin_burke

    I read the piece while trying not to laugh I failed miserably as I burst out laughing at the piece of utter nonsense , you do know this is a religious site right?
  • linatelinate 40 Pts
    @calebsica

    there is no evidence of a mass extinction. with all the past mass extinctions there is evidence, but not with the supposed flood. you should check your references. also, you didn't answer all the other questions posed in the opening post. a world wide flood for noah is a myth. 
    AlofRI
  • @linate ;
    Science doesn't have all the answers they are still finding new things day by day. If you are truly a christian take it on faith. Because you aren't going to find the answers on a debate site.
  • @Dee ;
    Just because its a religious site doesn't mean it's wrong. Atheist and non religious aren't the only reputable sources. 
  • @billbatard ;
    If you wish to debate then debate don't throw around immature responses. It makes you sound like an arrogant child.   
  • linatelinate 40 Pts
    @kevin_burke

    chrisitans should be concerned with truth above all else. not with trying to defend the doctrines of man, that have developed over the centuries.

    do you disagree with the premise that authentic miracles should have evidence that they occurred?
  • @linate
    Yes, I agree that we should be concerned about truth above all else. But, science isn't God it is merely us trying to explain gods creation. And yes I believe that miracles should be based on evidence (like the miracle of St. Bakhita who has been dead for almost 70 years yet her body is still in perfect condition)  and you don't have to believe every miracle. But, if you are truly a christian then you believe that the bible is the word of christ. And in the bible different language is used when historical events are being told and when parables are being told. And the story of Noah is told in the language of a historical event. And since I believe that the bible is the true word of God I believe in the Miracle of Noah is fact.   
    linate
  • @Zombieguy1987
    Thanks for the fallacy I earned a new badge because of it
    Zombieguy1987
  • linate said:
    @calebsica

    there is no evidence of a mass extinction. with all the past mass extinctions there is evidence, but not with the supposed flood. you should check your references. also, you didn't answer all the other questions posed in the opening post. a world wide flood for noah is a myth. 
    There would not have been a mass extinction because Noah took animals on the ark but fossils have to be formed quickly, with the billions of fossils we have found it makes sense that there would be a worldwide flood.
    linate
  • SandSand 100 Pts
    There is evidence of a mass extinction in the Bible. There are documented eyewitnesses of the event. Until you can disprove those eyewitnesses accounts, it is the most credible information we have of those events.
    linate
  • TKDBTKDB 340 Pts

    why should christians believe a literal noah story?


    Why should the anti religious worry their minds over Christians, who are living their lives as it suits them, instead of worrying over what questions, that some of the anti religious may come up with?
    Zombieguy1987
  • Zombieguy1987Zombieguy1987 450 Pts
    edited April 20
    TKDB said:

    why should christians believe a literal noah story?


    Why should the anti religious worry their minds over Christians, who are living their lives as it suits them, instead of worrying over what questions, that some of the anti religious may come up with?

    Because, when people believe nonsense, then they'll say they're smart, which it'll convince others what is true and false. It's this line of reasoning which gave the Anti-Vaxx movment steam. We have the right to criticize other peoples opinions. 

  • Praise the Lord for you! I am a Christian too, and I take that story literally, because I am in awe of Jesus, Who created everything. WOW, what an amazing God.
    Zombieguy1987AlofRIcalebsica
  • DeeDee 1072 Pts
    edited April 18
    @kevin_burke

    You say .....just because its a religious site doesn't mean it's wrong. Atheist and non religious aren't the only reputable sources. 

    My reply .....It does , because all such sitess never present any credible evidence for their various  claims.

    Accepted science sites are indeed mostly  reputable and if still in doubt one may question the validity of certain claims I’ve done so in the past to my satisfaction you can do so also , this is not the case with your sources it’s merely claims made with zero bankable evidence.

    Atheists sites address mostly one topic and one topic only Atheism and I wouldn’t use them anyway to verify claims such as yours

    Its also striking that you assume a god would stop a tsunami to save no doubt his devout followers yet the same god would watch and do nothing as men ,women and children were gassed in Austwitch , why’s that do you think?
  • SandSand 100 Pts

    Because according to the Bible, there was a two part challenge.

    Sovereignty and Integrity

    The right to rule (Sovereignty)

    Why we serve (Integrity)

     

    The challenge was who has the right to rule over man?

    God or Man

    And what is the motive behind the choice?

    Greed or Love

     

    God has allowed man to rule over man to show man needs higher guidance. That is why God does not interfere with political decisions of man.

    Once man has chosen love as the answer to all of his problems, he will ultimately determine he needs higher guidance.

    Then God will step back in as ultimate ruler, allowing man to choose his rulership.

    Not because of force, greed, or compulsion, but because of love.

     

    What we have seen in the world is bad weather, issues, and war.

    These things are caused by man's greed.

    Scientist's know that pollution has adverse effects on the weather, yet because of greed we keep destroying the environment.

    Everyone knows that War is a device used to gain financial and political advantages, yet everyone is defending not attacking.

    The majority of political decisions by man is motivated by greed not love.

    With the strongest effort to remove God from every equation in life.

     

    Nevertheless, it will be the laws of love that will fix every one of these problems we have.

    (I am not talking about the hypocritical religious ways of man)

    A person who truly applies love would never go to war.

     

    A person who lives by love looks for the interests of others ahead of his own.




  • TKDBTKDB 340 Pts
    @Zombieguy1987

    "Because, when people believe nonsense, then they'll say they're smart, which i'll convince others what is true and false.

    Who are you trying to convince, from the artificial existence of the internet? 

    It's this line of reasoning which gave the Anti-Vaxx movment steam. We have the right to criticize other peoples opinions."

    You're equating the anti vaxx movement, to religion?

    The words of an internet disciple, "We, and Us."

    Basically, you, and the others like you, you all are, your own collective movement?

    Zombieguy1987
  • ethang5ethang5 171 Pts
    @linate

    As a public service to the board, linate is not really a Christian, he's one of those wolves in sheep's clothing Jesus warned us about.

    >as a christian, i believe in miracles. but it's because of the way miracles are done that i dont believe a literal story of noah. when a miracle occurs, it holds up to scientific scrutiny. the story of noah does not hold up to scrutiny. there's no evidence for it, and in fact it goes against the evidence out there.

    Simply untrue.

    >why are there so many lines of humanity that appear to have evolved over hundreds of thousands of year?

    Why should there not be?

    >how did kangaroos get from australia to the ark?

    How did any animal get to the ark? First you assume kangaroos were on the Ark. Why? Then you assume, kangaroos were only in Australia at that time. Why? Then you assume there was no land  crossing from Australia to Asia at that time. Why? You make all these silly unwarranted assumptions and then wonder why YOUR story doesn't make sense.

    >howd they fit so many animals on the ark?

    The calculations have been done. The measurements were given in Genesis. The arc was large enough to house all the animals on it.

    >why isn't there imbreeding given there were only two animals left?

    How many animals do you think there were when animals first evolved? Animals were on the ark only a little more than 40 days.

    >why isn't there flood evidence?

    There is plenty. But because the bible says much of the water from the flood did not fall from sky, but rose up from underground, the "evidence" you are expecting is not reasonable. Water did not run down to low lying areas, but rose up to high lying areas, thus, different erosion patterns.

    >why isn't there mass extinction evidence?

    There is plenty of evidence of mass extinction. In fact, more animal species are extinct than all animal species alive today.

    >how did the fresh water fish survive living in salt water?

    1. Much of the water of the flood was fresh water.
    2. Many species can tolerate slightly salty water for short periods.
    3. On what is your assumption built that fresh water fish died?

    >the list of flaws is endless.

    Your list of assumptions based on ignorance is endless. So what?

    Educate yourself. Parroting atheist websites doesn't cut it.
    Zombieguy1987linate
  • linatelinate 40 Pts

    here is a link that lists a bunch of the scientific impossibilities of the ark story
    https://ncse.com/cej/4/1/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark?fbclid=IwAR117leqaF1SLQDumzcMejzKuwVEBnFTP6qUVygNNOCOjm98jk0BDvDHPHU

    i like the sentences it's got in the conclusion... "It is also quite obvious that the creationists are not engaged in any meaningful search for the truth concerning origins. They are committed in advance to a particular creed, and the facts exist only to be explained away." 

    for a new christian or a child, child like faith can be commendable. but for adults and those mature in the faith, it becomes contempt-able to take the stories of noah seriously. these folks are lovers of man's tales and religion, not truth.  "in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’"
  • SandSand 100 Pts

    That website list is just a list of improbabilities and is full of assumptions.

    As I read it, that person builds on the assumptions they already made by adding more facts and creating more hurdles.

     

    One of the assumptions is that the animals needed cages, when the Bible says the animals got fear in their hearts after the flood.

    Another assumption was there was two of each kind, when the Bible clearly says seven of the clean animals and two of the unclean animals.

    Another assumption is that he needed training and schooling to know how to build a new structure. (I guess no one would build anything without the proper degree)

    There is never a first of anything? Do you have to have schooling on everything to do anything?

     

    Skeptics are always asking for more facts, details, proof. You can't satisfy them. Hover dam is very improbable. The Egyptian pyramids are very improbable. Even when they have endless amount of facts and details they still question it. There are skeptics questioning the landing on the moon. There are skeptics who want proof the earth is a sphere.

     

    Was all the years, measurements, locations, and lineage all made up in this fictious story. Could it really be that no one was telling the truth. That everyone was in on this hoax. It was only by coincidence that it coincided with history.

     

    These skeptics have no documentation of anything else happening during that time period. But they are 100% sure that these events did not occur. They need all the facts and details to determine something actually happened. Then they have the nerve to call this nothing that happened "truth". 


    ethang5
  • TKDBTKDB 340 Pts
    Choosing to be religious in voluntary.

    Just as not being religious is voluntary.

    And then things like this get said.

    Zombieguy1987


    "Because, when people believe nonsense, then they'll say they're smart, which i'll convince others what is true and false."

    Who are you trying to convince, from the artificial existence of the internet? 

    "It's this line of reasoning which gave the Anti-Vaxx movment steam. We have the right to criticize other peoples opinions."

    You're equating the anti vaxx movement, to religion?

    The words of an internet disciple, "We, and Us."

    Basically, you, and the others like you, you all are, your own collective movement? 
    Zombieguy1987
  • AlofRIAlofRI 353 Pts
    If every drop of water in the air went to ground there would not be enough to cover the whole Earth. Then again, if it DID, no animals OR people could survive in air with NO humidity! There could be no Bison, Moose, Ocelot, Cougar, Armadillo, Kodiak Bear, Kangaroo, Koala, etc.,etc. on the Ark. It would have taken an ark the size of our latest aircraft carrier to carry the animals, 40 days of food (Who knew it would only be 40 days??), and a crew of hundreds just to shovel the dung from so many animals! What would the Lions and Tigers eat?? They're meat eaters! No refrigeration …. did Noah bring hundreds of lbs. of dead meat on board, or just a few extra antelope?? Tons of grain? How 'bout the Panda's? How about an Olympic swimming pool of water for them to drink?? There is nothing but fallacy in this "story". Total mythology.

    Then there's the Whale that swallowed the man. Whales can't swallow a man, that's why they live on plankton!

    WOW! A fire breathing dragon just flew by my house! …. Please ...
    Zombieguy1987
  • SandSand 100 Pts

    Lions and Tigers are meat eaters now, after God placed fear in the animals. If the animals were at peace with man before the flood then they probably did not eat meat. In the Bible book of Isaiah it reference the Lion returning to hay in the future.


    It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since some sources indicate that there are upwards of 8,700,000 species of animals. However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69)

    Rain water is drinkable. Plants are portable food factories. If done properly an adequate amount of food could be stored and grown on the ship. And thankfully due to the large amount of manure available, the soil brought on the ship could easily be re-fertilized over and over.

     

    You got to be careful about saying what is impossible. Because even though it is improbable, the so called “impossible” has been discovered possible over and over again by man.

     

    Look at some to name a few:

    flying cars

    man on the moon

    robots the size of a tank

    invisiblity

    man in flight

    the personal computer

    light without fire

    horseless carriage

    Harnessing nuclear energy

    Warm superconductors

    Creating force fields

    Teleportation

    Man swallowed by a whale:

    https://favogram.com/spain-real-life-biblical-jonah-survived-three-days-in-whales-belly/

    https://wgntv.com/2019/03/11/real-life-jonah-escapes-after-nearly-being-swallowed-by-whale/


    Zombieguy1987AlofRI
  • TKDBTKDB 340 Pts
    Why not protest religion, at the real life source of religion?

    IE, a religious building, where the anti religious, could debate, the minister, the pastor, the preacher, or a rabbi, for that matter?

    Call up the local TV news station, and make a news event out of it?
    Zombieguy1987
  • ethang5ethang5 171 Pts
    Thank you Sand. 

    Linate's website is a juvenile mish-mash of silly assumptions. 

    And when he quotes the site, it calls Christians "creationists". A clear sign of it being a bogus site.

    You and I know each other from another website linate. You are against Christian doctrine straight down the line. You are not a Christian, but a fake who thinks calling himself a Christian will add weight to his critique.

    You run away when your claims are challenged, and you simply move to other threads and boards and repeat your debunked claims there.

    Pick one "impossibility" from your link and I will show you that it is either not what the bible claims, or that it is not as impossible as your site claims.

    This is where you run away.
    Zombieguy1987
  • AlofRIAlofRI 353 Pts
    @TKDB Why not protest religion ...… 
    I have no wish to protest religion. I DO protest using religious doctrine to create laws that others, not affiliated with THAT religion must follow.
     I DO protest the religious hatred of other religions and THIER followers. That has caused too many deaths over the centuries, and it's NOT any particular religion (Abrahamic), they've all had their times. "Stay in your lane, bro", and we'll have NO problems.


    Zombieguy1987
  • SandSand 100 Pts

    Why should Christians believe a literal Noah story?

    Because it is more than possible.

     

    The ark size was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high  

    3 floors of 31,901 sqft, 14 foot ceilings, 95,703 sqft of floor space.

     

    Animals

    He needed

    43 “kinds” of mammals

    74 “kinds” of birds

    10 “kinds” of reptiles

    To be more liberal:

    65 “kinds” of mammals

    200 “kinds” of birds

    20 “kinds” of reptiles

    Seven of each “kind” would be:

    455 “kinds” of mammals

    1400 “kinds” of birds

    140 “kinds” of reptiles

    1,995 total animals

     

    Two of the unclean animals could be

    300 “kinds”of animals

    New total would be

    2,695 Animals

     

    On the bottom floor, lets say it was 9,000 animals he gathered, which is over 3 times what is required. With 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. That is 82% land animals are smaller than rats. That means a 14 sqft cage, 12 inches in height, would be adequate. That means 7,380 animals could only take up as little as 20,664 sqft of space if you stack the cages 5 high. This leaves over 11,000 sqft for the remaining 1,620 animals.

     

    On the top floor 16,000 sqft could be used to grow trees and the windows could allow rain water in with sunlight. If you plant 3ft by 3ft spacing you could have 1757 trees. If you store food for 10,000 animals, 70,000 calories a day (enough to feed an elephant) for 2000 animals, 500 calories a day for 8000 animals, 2000 calories a day for 20 people, should equal 52,574,600,000 for 1 year. Food stacked in barrels 175 inches high it should take 15,823 sqft.

     

    On the middle floor, water could be stored in barrels 14 feet high. Enough for 10,000 animals and people at 2 liters for 1 year would take 18,416 sqft. This leaves 13,485 square feet for living space or other storage like tools or wood for repairs. This shows how realistic to believe that Noah built an ark to survive the flood.

     

    There is a space trip to Mars planed in a rocket measuring 11,610 square feet.This trip will take 100 passengers to mars in 7 months.The level of planning is way more extensive than a boat that survives a flood. They have to house food, air, fuel, electronics, living quarters, and navigation just to name a few, in a tight ship. They also have to house enough air, food, and shelter for everyday living on mars. What is interesting some people would say this is possible whereas the ark to survive a flood, impossible. What is also funny is some people doubting the landing on the moon, with all the evidence we have.

     






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