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How and why Germans bought Hitler's pitch, what can we learn?

Debate Information

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCu7IT81gh8
I think we really need to learn from history, or history will be repeated. With the radical far left attacking free speech, and religious liberty, as well as supporting eugenics (I repent for my past comments), I am starting to think Hitler was a liberal by 1940s standards. The things that make you go hmmmmmm.
piloteer
  1. Live Poll

    Was Hitler a liberal?

    10 votes
    1. Yes.
      60.00%
    2. No.
      40.00%



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    Arguments


  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4891 Pts   -  
    Why do people employ any sort of self-destructive behavior? Because they give in to their pain and start being controlled by it, rather than being controlled by more constructive feelings.

    Germany after World War I was a beaten up country. No army to speak of, no economical independence, heavy sanctions. Unbelievable unemployment rates, highest inflation in human history, extreme crime abundance. People were literally starving to death on the streets.
    In such a situation, people become fearful and desperate enough to try something, anything, new. Both communists and Nazis offered something new; two totalitarian groups offering simple solutions to complex problems. In the end, Nazis won the ideological struggle, and Hitler took over.

    To his credit, Hitler did solve the economical problems of Germany. More than that, he turned it from one of the poorest into one of the strongest and richest nations on Earth in mere 5 years. Hitler's Germany is possibly the only example in human history of a socialist system working - although he was educated enough to let the private market run its course, only taking a fraction of its output away. Ultimately, however, his system was doomed, both due to its expansionist traits, and to his domestic ideology being extremely divisive.

    I do not think we will have a second Hitler on the West any time soon; like I said, Hitler's triumph was caused by extreme desperation in the German society. Today even the poorest Western countries offer quality of life high enough that people will not risk losing it all just to try something drastically new. It is not the German situation, where people had nothing to lose and were doomed either way.

    However, the current resurgence of populism world-wide does have certain similarities to Germany in 1933 in that people are frustrated by certain elements of the modern Western society and are willing to elect people promising to solve their problems quickly with simplistic policies. My personal outlook on this is that populists and pragmatists regularly switch places in developed democracies, and we are now on the populist stage, just like we were in early 2000-s or in mid-1980-s. It will pass, and in a couple of election cycles we will have pragmatists in power again.

    People like to see the current trends on the West as unprecedented, but the historical perspective disagrees. The rise of socialism and nationalism is not a new thing, it has happened multiple times throughout the last century and will happen multiple times again in the future. I do not think the authoritarian message will stick for long, and I do believe that we as a civilisation are past taking such ideologies seriously in the long run.
  • piloteerpiloteer 1547 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    The reason hitlers economic plan may have worked was because the German government seized all the property of "non-German" people, and political dissidents, and enslaved the Jews. Then they redistributed the stolen property to the rest of the German population. I guess if theft of private property is a good economic plan, then sure, hitler was a genius. But I still think it's just theft.
  • piloteerpiloteer 1547 Pts   -  
    It's worth noting that the far right in America and Europe and Russia are fiercely nationalistic, just like the nazis. The far left aren't nationalistic. 
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    piloteer said:
    It's worth noting that the far right in America and Europe and Russia are fiercely nationalistic, just like the nazis. The far left aren't nationalistic. 
    Right, these days they're more communistic (back in FDR's day they were certainly nationalistic).  It's also worth noting that Stalin was worse than Hitler.
    ZeusAres42
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4891 Pts   -  
    One of the core ideas of communism is inter-nationalism, which is essentially nationalism in disguise. It suggests that all traditional national traits (except, of course, those that the communist personally approves of) are in the way of the glorious revolution and must be purged, violently if necessary.

    Nationalism is an inherent part of socialist and communist ideologies. This is why, for example, Jews were extremely oppressed in Soviet Union, and Uygurs were and to this day are extremely oppressed in China. The only difference in this regard between Hitler and, say, Mao is how much importance nationalism had in their ideology: in Hitler's case it was used to justify expropriation of property and mass purges, while in Mao's case it was overshadowed by other violence-advocating considerations. Uygurs face much bigger issues than open nationalism in the Chinese society, while for Jews in Third Reich anti-semitism was pretty much at the core of all of their problems.

    In Russia, interestingly, a lot of communists are also conventionally nationalistic. It is a strange mix of Russian supremacism and communist views - strange from the Western perspective, at least, as in Russia it is very common and does not surprise anyone. Take Sanders with his "redistribute everything", add Trump's positions on immigration and international trade and Bzezinski's hawkish foreign policy stances - and you will get what a lot of members of the Communist Party of Russian Federation stand for.
    piloteerCYDdharta
  • piloteerpiloteer 1547 Pts   -   edited July 2019
    @CYDdharta

    The only reason stalin turned out to be worse than hitler is because stalin had time to do his atrocities. If hitler had as much time as stalin, I think it would have been a pretty close competition between the two. Perhaps you can differentiate between communism and socialism, but I cannot. hitler was a socialist, which is no different from communism when you boil them down.
  • TKDBTKDB 695 Pts   -  
    @piloteer

    "The far left aren't nationalistic."

    But the far left is supportive, of the 300 Sanctuary cities, in the U.S.?

    Is that far left philosophy, fair to the rest of the constituents, who live, in those same cities?

    The far left also is in favor of border security, but not a border barrier?

    Is that far left philosophy, fair to those constituents who live along the southern border?

    The far left is for taxing the Rich, when a better tax idea, would be fair and equal taxation being applied to all of the states, in the country, IE, all of the states paying their fair share in taxation?
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    piloteer said:
    @CYDdharta

    The only reason stalin turned out to be worse than hitler is because stalin had time to do his atrocities. If hitler had as much time as stalin, I think it would have been a pretty close competition between the two. Perhaps you can differentiate between communism and socialism, but I cannot. hitler was a socialist, which is no different from communism when you boil them down.

    OK, if you want to say that these days the left is Stalinist and Hitleresque, I won't argue with you.  The tactics being employed by their Brown Shirts in ANTIFA is certainly a point in favor of that argument.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 805 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    I thought this was an interesting debate which I was very much looking forward to offering my views on. That remained true right up until I saw the poll results that over fifty percent of people in here think Hitler was a liberal. I'm just absolutely flabbergasted at the things Americans can be convinced to believe. I mean, I'm pretty much just speechless at this point.
  • BoganBogan 266 Pts   -  

    Socialism is totalitarianism, and totalitarianism comes in four forms.     The first is through a feudal royal kingship.    The second, clerical control of society.    Third, left wing socialism, which is usually initially supported by the public service bureaucrats and their unions, academia, minority groups, and those dependent upon government welfare.     Right wing socialism is usually initially supported by the aristocracy, upper, middle classes, often the clergy, and war veterans if they exist.      Both types of socialism try to appeal to the largest class in society, the working class, for support.

     Left wing socialism is supposedly both egalitarian and internationalist, but it is neither.   Left wing socialism is usually as nationalistic as right wing socialism.    Left wing socialism simply means that certain classes of elites get complete control, although they usually find themselves being controlled themselves by bloodthirsty despots.   What results is an almost feudal aristocracy of privileged people, and the rest of society below them.    Left wing economics is so laughably idealistic and out of touch with reality that it inevitably results in economic disaster for the entire nation, and technological stagnation. 

     Right wing socialism was a better idea because it put people into power who knew what they were doing instead of woolly headed, idealistic academics and self serving bureaucrats, who could not run a chook raffle at a country fete.  Right wing totalitarians are usually very successful at managing economies, something that Russia and China only in the last 40 years figured out.  Like left wing socialism, it usually results in a bloodthirsty despot taking over all control. 

     Unfortunately, even a right wing totalitarian political system combined with a free market does not do as well as a democracy coupled with a free market economy.     The Ivans are learning that a supposedly free market run by corrupt secret police political cronies does not work very well at all.    And the Chinese are learning that once they have stolen all of the west's technology without regard to intellectual property rights, their western competitors who are much more innovative in creating technology, will avoid doing business or transferring knowledge to them in future.

     But anyhoo, Hitler was an artist and a genuine member of the so called "intelligentsia".    Nazism and Fascism were just two derivations of socialism which were more acceptable to the some demographics than to others.     Like left wing socialism before it, Fascism was considered a progressive, even liberal idea by people who were desperate, and who clamoured for change. 

    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 805 Pts   -   edited January 20
    @Bogan
    Nazism and Fascism were just two derivations of socialism

    Bogan, you are so dumb I wouldn't be surprised if you walk around all day with your shoes on the wrong feet. 

    https://fullfact.org/online/nazis-socialists/

    Deejack
  • DeeDee 4958 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

     fifty percent of people in here think Hitler was a liberal. I'm just absolutely flabbergasted at the things Americans can be convinced to believe. I mean, I'm pretty much just speechless at this point.

    Yes indeed a lot of the crowd on here are the home schooled  trailer trash type  who think FOX news is the epitome of excellence regards current affairs 
    Nomenclaturejack
  • DeeDee 4958 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature

    Yeshua got banned for life a good while  back for her unbalanced right wing Christian views 
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 805 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    Yeshua got banned for life a good while  back for her unbalanced right wing Christian views

    I remember her well and exactly how crazy she is. She's a fine example of what brainwashing can do to a person.

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