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Should capital punishment be abolished?
in Politics

By DylanDylan 54 Pts
I'm not here to debate this issue myself, I more so want to see what others have to say about it. I myself lean towards allowing capital punishment should the crime committed be severe enough to warrant it, for example why should a person that murdered someone be allowed to live themselves if they were to be proven guilty? 



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Arguments

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1793 Pts
    I don't remember who said it, but the quote reflects my view on this perfectly: "If a society gives up on its member, it gives up on itself". There is no excuse for killing someone who is already in custody and cannot harm anyone. It is just plain murder, and we all know why murder is not a great thing to have allowed.

    Just because it is the government that commits the murder, does not suddenly make this murder into something else. Why murder is better not allowed is another topic, and I can elaborate on that as well if you like.

    We need to throw away this mentality that makes a qualitative distinction between a government doing something, and an individual doing something. Individuals are not allowed to take each other's money without consent, hence the government should not be either. Individuals are not allowed to kill each other, hence the government should not either. The role of the government must end where the Constitutional rights of individuals end, otherwise it is not a government for the people; it is a government over the people.
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
  • DylanDylan 54 Pts
    edited May 20
    @MayCaesar See that's the thing, someone that committed a crime warranting capital punishment probably murdered someone or multiple people themselves. If someone were to be proven guilty of such a thing, it's not as if they're some innocent soul that hasn't done anything. Should someone like that really be allowed to live when they've murdered others? Should committing a crime that would warrant capital punishment be forfeiting your own right to life? I'm just trying to raise questions and hear responses here. 
  • Funny how some pro-life people would be in favor of the death penalty and how some pro-choice people are against it...

    I'm in agreement with @MayCaesar...
     @Dylan it's not as if they're some innocent soul...

    That sounds pretty subjective... Define innocence and define soul? I don't hold the belief that such a thing as souls exists...

    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1793 Pts
    @Dylan

    Well, for me, a good rule of thumb in such matters is to replace the government with myself and ask myself, "Would it be okay for me to do X?"

    So, suppose, I walk on the street, and someone approaches me and confesses that they have murdered someone. Would it be okay for me to kill the person on the spot? The current law does not allow it, and I doubt it ever will. So if I cannot punish people in such a way for their crimes, why should the government be able to? The government can detain the individual to protect itself from them, which is a necessary evil, just as I can detain a person that presents a real threat to me until police arrives - but killing the person seems excessive to me.

    By the same token, I also do not think that lifetime sentences should exist. For that matter, I believe in granting people a chance to redeem themselves no matter what they did, and to have a normal life afterwards. If that is not given, then the person might as well be dead already, since living in prison until one's death is not what I would call "life".
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DylanDylan 54 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I'm not debating, I'm just raising questions and wanting to hear what people have to say about it. In the context of this discussion when I say "innocent soul" I just mean someone that has not caused harm to anyone or murdered someone, which is not the case for someone that has been judged worthy of capital punishment. 

    Also, are you bringing my stance on abortion into this argument? I find that irrelevant to this discussion and could potentially be an ad hominem if you're using that against my current stance on capital punishment. 


  • @Plaffelvohfen
    Abortion and capital punishment are two different things. Abortion is the killing of a subject before it is born. Capital punishment is taking an already born subject and killing it because it has committed crimes warranting CP.
    Dylan
    Sovereignty for Kekistan
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 446 Pts
    There really is no justification for a medieval punishment within the 21st century.

    The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.

  • TKDBTKDB 256 Pts
    @MayCaesar

    See if the families of Columbine, or any the other mass shooters crimes, that slaughtered their family members, with the gun violence brutality, agrees with your bias choice of words?

    "There is no excuse for killing someone who is already in custody and cannot harm anyone. It is just plain murder, and we all know why murder is not a great thing to have allowed"
  • TKDBTKDB 256 Pts
    @ZeusAres42

    See if the families of Columbine, or any the other mass shooters crimes, that slaughtered their family members, with the gun violence brutality, agrees with your bias choice of words?

    "There really is no justification for a medieval punishment within the 21st century."
  • TKDBTKDB 256 Pts
    edited May 21
    @MayCaesar

    @ZeusAres42

    @Plaffelvohfen

    "The Supreme Court has ruled that the death penalty does not violate the Eighth Amendment's ban on cruel and unusual punishment, but the Eighth Amendment does shape certain procedural aspects regarding when a jury may use the death penalty and how it must be carried out."

    Isn't a gun violence committed crime, by a first time offender, an offender, or criminal in general, are cruel and unusual punishments, towards their innocent victim, or victims?

    Via mass shootings, robberies, drive by shootings, murder/ suicide, sexual assaults, and so on? 

    So, because of those thousands of victims, having been victimized, by their victimizers, Capital Punishment, should be added, and amended to the Second Amendment.

    Being that the Second Amendment is based on 18th century dialogue, and should be reflective of how the rights of those victims, being victimized, by their victimizers, Capital Punishment, should be a part of the Second Amendment, in the 21st century.

    Instead of some asking if it should be abolished, thus treating the victimizer, just as they treated their thousands of victimized, victims.

    Fair and equal treatment for all.

  • John_C_87John_C_87 205 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen
    Abortion and capital punishment are two different things. Abortion is the killing of a subject before it is born. Capital punishment is taking an already born subject and killing it because it has committed crimes warranting CP.

    In basic principle Pregnancy abortion is the admission of a murder by the woman's use of not allowing birth to take place. Which is the same lethal force a woman uses by not fertilizing an egg while ovulating.


  • @Plaffelvohfen
    Abortion and capital punishment are two different things. Abortion is the killing of a subject before it is born. Capital punishment is taking an already born subject and killing it because it has committed crimes warranting CP.
    Both results are the same, the justifications may be different... The difference is in that the death of the fetus when an abortion is performed, is an unintended but necessary consequence, whereas with capital punishment, death is the actual intent...  
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Dylan said:
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Also, are you bringing my stance on abortion into this argument? I find that irrelevant to this discussion and could potentially be an ad hominem if you're using that against my current stance on capital punishment. 
    No, it was just an observation on how the "sanctity of life" argument can change... The same is true with pro-choice who are against CP, though they have a better argument in this case...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • TKDBTKDB 256 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Are you, maybe trying to equate abortion, to capital punishment? 
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 446 Pts

    Actually, a number of victims families in the past from various brutal crimes have said they'd rather see the perpetrators suffer life in prison than being put to rest via capital punishment.

    Of course, if you try to see it from the families point of view (subjectively) and contemplate if this was you, then you may very well want the worst kind of pain inflicted upon the perpetrators and conclude that death is too kind and you'd prefer to have them suffer until their last natural breath.

    Furthermore, a lot of victims families of brutal crimes have been on documentaries where they've been asked the question that you keep on asking (in either every or almost every debate topic you decide to participate in I might add) and have said they'd rather see the perps suffer life in prison.
    Plaffelvohfen

    The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.

  • TKDBTKDB 256 Pts
    @ZeusAres42

    Where's your evidence to support your claims?

    Links to the real world news sources? 

    Please, educate the public, with the words, from those very families, that you're alluding to?

    From: ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, NPR, or OAN?
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 446 Pts
    edited May 21
    Plaffelvohfen

    The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1793 Pts
    @TKDB

    People act irrational and egoistic when their emotions are playing with their minds. There is a reason why we have a system of justice, and do not let people themselves do the acts of justice. What you are advocating for is essentially honor killings, with the only difference being that the act is performed not by the affected individuals, but by the society as a whole.

    Which, to my eyes, makes it only worse.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 256 Pts
    edited May 21
    @ZeusAres42

    You're playing games.

    "You're welcome."

    Why not share your individual information, instead of messing around, with your click bait page? 


    ZeusAres42
  • TKDBTKDB 256 Pts
    edited May 21
    @MayCaesar

    How about hiring an attorney, and taking your words before the SCOTUS, and see if they agree with your position? 

    As well, as see how many probable, anti gun violence protestors, maybe show up to protest the way the Second Amendment, is poorly written, to reflect the thousands of gun violence crimes, that have occurred, and continue to occur, day after day, in this country, in the 21st century? 

    "People act irrational and egoistic when their emotions are playing with their minds. There is a reason why we have a system of justice, and do not let people themselves do the acts of justice. What you are advocating for is essentially honor killings, with the only difference being that the act is performed not by the affected individuals, but by the society as a whole."

    Instead of staging your individual position on the internet? 
    ZeusAres42
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1793 Pts
    @TKDB

    Attorneys know enough about the law to understand that the line of defence consisting of emotional appeals is the easiest way to lose a client and to ruin one's professional reputation. Qualified attorneys defend their clients through scrutinising the evidence presented by the accusers, and navigating the law to find legal weaknesses and loopholes that can help their defendants.

    Emotions have no place in the courtroom, and a side that appeals to them is well on the way to losing the trial. And SCOTUS consists of judges with many decades of experience, who understand this principle much better than I do.
    ZeusAres42
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 446 Pts
    edited May 21



    The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.

  • TKDBTKDB 256 Pts
    edited May 21
    @MayCaesar

    How do you know?

    You make the law sound cold.

    Just as some of the pro gun extremists, and their cold response, about (how a victim should have had a gun, and maybe, they wouldn't have become a victim of an offenders gun violence crime against their victim?)

    The cold steel of a gun, and cold blooded gun violence, because of an innocent person getting murdered by an offender, or criminal? 

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1793 Pts
    @TKDB

    The law is cold. That is the whole reason behind highly qualified judges being involved in the process, and behind the principle of independence and impartiality of judges: if the judge has any stake in the outcome of the matter, they must abstain from the process.

    If the law was not cold, then it would not be the law; it would be vigilantism.
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
  • SharkySharky 97 Pts
    Capital punishment is, frankly, underutilized. The argument that a person in custody is essentially harmless is not only untrue, it's silly. In a state with no death penalty, an inmate with a 'life without parole" sentence has a virtual license to kill in prison. What are authorities going to do, give them another 'life without parole" sentence? 

    Mankind is terrorized, victimized and stunted by a small percentage of the population who are amoral sociopaths who will commit any crime in order to advance their own interests and lusts. We hear about these cretins every day of our lives on the news and thank our lucky stars that we were not the victim in the story. That's just dumb luck. 

    If the good, decent, law-abiding and hard-working people of the world bit the bullet and said "Enough" to the criminals who drag humanity down and then started executing them at the rate they deserve, the world would very quickly become a much better place. Harsh? You bet it's harsh! Playing beanbag with cold-blooded murderers is a quick way to get yourself killed. 
    CYDdharta
  • @Dylan get rid of the guns first
    The passion for destruction is also a creative passion. Mikhail Bakunin

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