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jews were not slaves in egypt, contrary to the bible
in Religion

By linatelinate 34 Pts

here is some information on the claim that the old testament jews came from egypt. 

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=d1LoXNy8JoWitQXCnpLoBA&q=jews+didnt+come+from+egypt&oq=jews+didnt+come+from+egypt&gs_l=psy-ab.12...905.6737..6936...1.0..2.815.5438.0j18j4j3j6-1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i10i67j0i67j0j0i131j0i70i249j0i10.6OAF3UjJSzc

i admit i'm not scholar. but there were a lot of jews that supposedly came while being lost in the desert, and yet there is no historical evidence of this. it looks like a bible myth, but i stand open to correction. 



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  • The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.
    ZeusAres42Zombieguy1987
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • linatelinate 34 Pts
    a dude on youtube refutes the claim that jews were slaves in Egypt 
  • linatelinate 34 Pts
  • linatelinate 34 Pts
  • SandSand 64 Pts
    Since we do not have anything to refute the information located in the Bible, we have to go on that information. Since the Bible has corrected archeological evidence multiple times. It is safe to say the Bible is more reliable than archeological evidence. 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1653 Pts
    First of all, in Ancient Egypt the concept of "slavery" was somewhat redundant: in essence, every single individual was a slave to the harsh totalitarian system, and there was no distinction between slaves and non-slaves.

    Second, as far as we know, there was no state-instituted oppression of Jews in Egypt, but there was a very harsh societal discrimination against them. Unlike other people who would "get in line", Jews historically often tried to perform trade despite all the bans and prohibitions, and that, in turn, made the common people distrust and despise them.

    Finally, it is worth noting that our knowledge of that period is skewed by millennia of historians recording evidence loosely and through the lenses of individual biases. It is very much possible that a lot of we currently believe Ancient Egypt was like is nothing more than aberration coming from our ignorance. In particular, the treatment of Jews by Egyptians is a somewhat open question, and there is a lot we do not know about it.
    Zombieguy1987
  • SandSand 64 Pts
    The "historians" only wrote positive accounts of the
  • SandSand 64 Pts
    The "historians" wrote a majority of positive information of the their nation, making it seem like they took over the world. Also the level of detail is not with many of the Egyptian accounts. How are the Egyptians going to write how they mistreated their slaves, the slaves uprised, embarrassed all their Gods, then escaped killing their Army, and Pharoah. I think that would be an event they would omit.
  • ethang5ethang5 117 Pts
    When non-christians say things like this, I always wonder what would constitute proof for them? A ancient Jewish temple next to the great pyramid?

    People like Plaffelvohfen have no clue what they're talking about. They just parrot stuff they got from atheist websites with poor academics.

    As for Linate, he/she calls themselves "Christian" but in every single post I have ever seen them make over years on several different debate sites have been anti-christian. Why the charade of pretending to be a christian?

    Does he think his antichristian agenda will be furthered if he/she is perceived as a theist?

    There is evidence that Jews spent time in Egypt. One just has to know what conditions were in Egypt at the time to know what is reasonable to expect to find.

    And most people on debate sites like this are operating on relatively ancient information. They get the position they like and then stop learning, never updating as new knowledge comes along.

    Often too, their poor knowledge on history and anthropology makes them unable to understand explanations in the first place, so they must be educated even before they can be given the answer.

    And it isn't easy to get them to accept that they are ignorant, much less to be receptive to being educated.

    The way most skeptics approach this, is to say there is no evidence that supports the bible's account. The challenge I would make to them, is to find any evidence that contradicts the bible's account.

    If the bible is wrong, there should be plenty of evidence that assertively shows it is wrong. So not just a lack of evidence for, but an abundance of evidence against.

    Very quickly the realize the scarcity of their knowledge, and for honest skeptics, this realization opens them up to being informed.

    But for the militant anti-theists, nothing shakes their dogmatism. They view new knowledge as personal attacks and get angry and abusive.

    The debate is hardly ever worth it on the net.
    Sand
  • ethang5ethang5 117 Pts
    edited May 30
    When non-christians say things like this, I always wonder what would constitute proof for them? An ancient Jewish temple next to the great pyramid?

    People like Plaffelvohfen have no clue what they're talking about. They just parrot stuff they got from atheist websites with poor academics.

    As for Linate, he/she calls themselves "Christian" but in every single post I have ever seen them make over years on several different debate sites have been anti-christian. Why the charade of pretending to be a christian?

    Does he think his antichristian agenda will be furthered if he/she is perceived as a theist?

    There is evidence that Jews spent time in Egypt. One just has to know what conditions were in Egypt at the time to know what is reasonable to expect to find today.

    And most people on debate sites like this are operating on relatively ancient information. They got the position they liked and then stopped learning, never updating as new knowledge came along. Often never even knowing there was new information.

    Often too, their poor knowledge on history and anthropology makes them unable to understand explanations in the first place, so they must be educated even before they can be given the answer.

    And it isn't easy to get them to accept that they are ignorant, much less to be receptive to being educated.

    The way most skeptics approach this, is to say there is no evidence that supports the bible's account. The challenge I would make to them, is to find any evidence that contradicts the bible's account.

    If the bible is wrong, there should be plenty of evidence that assertively shows it is wrong. So not just a lack of evidence for, but an abundance of evidence against.

    Very quickly the realize the scarcity of their knowledge, and for honest skeptics, this realization opens them up to being informed.

    But for the militant anti-theists, nothing shakes their dogmatism. They view new knowledge as personal attacks and get angry and abusive.

    The debate is hardly ever worth it on the net.
    Sand
  • @ethang5
    People like Plaffelvohfen have no clue what they're talking about. 
    Try jewish sources maybe?

    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-1.5208519
    Zombieguy1987
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 117 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    This is the internet Plaff. I can show you American sources that say man never went to the moon.

    Identity politics should not be in science. The ethnicity of the site is immaterial, the quality of their academics is paramount.

    Religion should also not be in science. An orthodox or reformed Jew could have reason to be biased against the Christian position.

    First, what evidence would be reasonable to expect, and is there any positive evidence against?
    Sand
  • @ethang5

    When actual Jewish scholar themselves recognize that the Exodus is a myth, I have no valid reason to doubt them...

    I think Jews know more about their own history than any Christian....
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 117 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    >When actual Jewish scholar themselves recognize that the Exodus is a myth, I have no valid reason to doubt them...

    What does their being Jewish have to do with facts? And a few guys on a website aren't Jewish scholars. As I said, identity politics have no place in science.

    I have valid reason to doubt them, and it has to do with facts, not what ethnicity they are.

    >I think Jews know more about their own history than any Christian....

    Only people who impassively study history know history. No one alive today was there, history is open to anyone who studies. A persons ethnicity does nothing for or against learning.

    If you believe them fine, but saying there is no evidence is untrue. You just don't know of any evidence so you think none exists.
    PlaffelvohfenSand
  • @ethang5

    Prof. Israel Finkelstein, a senior researcher at the Department of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and one of the most prominent scholars in the field of biblical archeology today, is not "some guy on a website"...

    According to his research : "Most have searched for the historical and archaeological evidence in the Late Bronze Age, the 13th century BCE, partly because the story mentions the city of Ramses, and because at the end of that century an Egyptian document referred to a group called ’Israel‘ in Canaan. However, there is no archaeological evidence of the story itself, in either Egypt or Sinai, and what has been perceived as historical evidence from Egyptian sources can be interpreted differently. Moreover, the Biblical story does not demonstrate awareness of the political situation in Canaan during the Late Bronze Age – a powerful Egyptian administration that could have handled an invasion of groups from the desert. Additionally, many of the details in the Biblical story fit better with a later period in the history of Egypt, around the 7-6th centuries BCE – roughly the time when the Biblical story as we know it today was put into writing. “However, this was not a story invented by later authors, since references to the Exodus appear in Hosea and Amos' chapters of prophecy, which probably date to the 8th century BCE, suggesting that the tradition is ancient. In this sense, some scholars propose that the origin lies in an ancient historical event – the expulsion of Canaanites from the Nile Delta in the middle of the second millennium BCE. In any case the Exodus story is layered and represents more than one period. “It seems that the story of the exodus was one of the founding texts of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and that it came to Judah after the destruction of Israel. It is possible that in the later days of Judah, a time of approaching confrontation with Egypt, the story expressed hope, showing a clash with mighty Egypt of the distant past, in which the Children of Israel prevailed. Later the story held a message of hope for those exiled in Babylon, that it was possible to overcome exile, cross a desert and return to the land of the forefathers. Above all, the story of Exodus has been an eternal metaphor for escaping slavery for freedom, in Jewish and other traditions."

    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • SandSand 64 Pts
    Do the Egyptions document negative events?
    Thus, the Egyptians were careful about what they recorded. Because of the magical power inherent in the words themselves, what they recounted could theoretically happen again. As a result, they would have been reluctant to record any event that might threaten their existence. They would try to avoid anything that would disturb what they called Maat, a word which may be translated literally as  'justice' or 'truth' [adl was the term used by the Egyptians to describe an abstract concept representing the ideal state of the universe and everyone in it; the status quo, or correct order, which had been established by the gods at  the time of creation and which had to be maintained to placate the gods, but which was always under threat from malevolent outside influences seeking to bring chaos and disruption (or isfet) to Egypt. Because of this,  Egyptian scribes would have been reluctant to mention anything that had already threatened chaos for Egypt. For them, it  would never do to record the assassination of a king. The historical account itself might spontaneously burst into being and again plunge the nation into disaster.


    How are the Egyptians going to write how they mistreated their slaves, the slaves uprised, embarrassed all their Gods, then escaped killing their Army, and Pharoah. I think that would be an event they would omit.

    ethang5
  • @Sand

    You forget, that there were many other nations around at that time who would have been aware of such a large population movement and they would have no reason to conceal the event, it would have been recorded... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 117 Pts
    This is more than 6,000 years ago. Very few people wrote, and fewer could write. Historians were commissioned, no one recorded history for history's sake. 

    Then how would it be stored? There was no paper, and no libraries. There were constant wars and the climate was terrible for preservation.

    The commissioned historians recorded only facts favorable to the king, and manufactured facts to favor the king or deleted facts that would shame the kingdom.

    People today tend to think there was a CNN in ancient Egypt.

    Then there are the biblical experts. In Jesus' day, they were the Pharisees. Nothing but s bunch of idiots whose lips praised God while their hearts were far from Him.

    Your Jewish scholar is in fact just some guy. You make much of him because you are a progressive liberal and ethnicity for you is virtue.

    Israel Finkelstein is just a modern day Pharisee. Like a whitewashed grave but full of dead mans bones.

    Here is a review of Finkelstein from Biblical Archaeology. Org

    https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/reviews/divided-kingdom-united-critics/

    The first review is by William G. Dever, one of America’s leading archaeologists.

    It is impossible to summarize Israel Finkelstein’s latest book, The Forgotten Kingdom, in a brief review because its numerous errors, misrepresentations, over-simplifications and contradictions make it too unwieldy. Specialists will know these flaws, since all of Finkelstein’s pivotal views have been published elsewhere. Here I can only alert unwary BAR readers that this book is not really about sound historical scholarship: It is all about theater. Finkelstein is a magician, conjuring a “lost kingdom” by sleight-of-hand, intending to convince readers that the illusion is real and expecting that they will go away marveling at how clever the magician is. Finkelstein was once an innovative scholar, pioneering new methods; now he has become a showman. A tragic waste of talent, energy and charm—and a detriment to our discipline.
    ----------------------------------

    The second review is by the highly regarded scholar and archaeologist, Aaron Burke, associate professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.

    The problem, however, as Finkelstein recognizes, is that although “the land of Shechem” appears prominently in the Amarna correspondence, it is impossible to identify it with any certainty as the central and strongest polity in the northern highlands, particularly since neither Labayu, the leader of an insurgency against Egyptian rule, nor his sons is ever identified as ruler of Shechem and its territory.

    Consequently, this central tenet of Finkelstein’s argument in support of the prominence of a polity in the northern highlands (and all of Finkelstein’s speculation therefrom) does not follow from the evidence he adduces. Indeed, it seems that Finkelstein’s Labayu tradition here serves only as a surrogate to support the origin of the Iron Age northern kingdom of Israel. Finkelstein simply uses Labayu to replace the role of the United Monarchy in the tenth century as the origin of Israel (and Judah). This reconstruction, while entirely plausible, does not replace the explanatory framework provided by the Davidic tradition in the Bible. 

    Finkelstein’s positions in this book are sometimes tortuously maintained in the face of contravening data.

    Since Finkelstein is unable to demonstrate an unequivocal basis for the indigenous origins of political power in the northern highlands, his central argument fails.

    ----------------------------------------

    Finkelstein runs on book sales. And book sales run on controversy.

    You like him only because he advances an idea you like, not because he is correct.

    There is not enough space here to post all the professional and competent archeologists who consider Finkelstein a hack.

    Sand
  • @ethang5

    But then, the same can be said of any expert, right? Having an expertise means nothing? ok... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • SandSand 64 Pts
    The point is that we have to rely on the Bible to verify the event.
    Since more than one writers refer to Israel being freed from Egypt.
    Egypt information has no documentation of it.

    It is safe to say that the Bible corrected archeological evidence again.
    This is not the first time, it has happen hundreds of times.

    If you do not believe these events happened then you are going against the facts.
    You are going against eye witnessed accounts, without proof.


    There is nothing to refute the information located in the Bible, we have to go on that information.

    It is safe to say the Bible is more reliable than archeological evidence. 

  • ethang5ethang5 117 Pts
    edited June 1
    @Plaffelvohfen

    >But then, the same can be said of any expert, right?

    No, because not every expert is a hack. I was not attacking his expertise, I questioned his intent.

    You produced one man and spun him into "the Jewish people". And insisted his loony theories were right because he was Jewish.

    "The Jewish people would know their history better than...."

    If they weren't there, how would they know it better? By the magic of being Jewish? That is liberal identity politics. It is illogical.

    >Having an expertise means nothing? ok... 

    See how you are trying again to put a spin on me? An expert is not correct simply because he is an expert.

    Today's generation that worships at the alter of science is simply old fashion idolatry.

    I may not be an expert in his field, but I can still think.

    This man say David did not exist, which means neither did Solomon. He say there was no Ark of the Covenant. No Job, or Noah. He denies the entire collective memory of whole nation.

    And his books fly off the shelves and grant money comes pouring in, as he preaches to people in the choir like you, telling you what you already believe, so you happily anoint him high priest.

    He's an expert, and he's Jewish, he's must be right you breathlessly exclaim.

    His university sees the money and fame he brings in, and they cherish him despite his shoddy academics.

    Then the leftist news media picks him up, and he becomes a star, the JEW who is telling the truth about Jewish history. The "truth" being what they already believe.

    And finally he becomes, "the Jewish people", and history is revised.
    Sand
  • SandSand 64 Pts
    It is very hard to keep a lineage with a fictitious story.
    Especially when the story is written by different people, over a period of 1000s of years.
    Also to be one of the most accurate accounts.
    Locations, description of architect, distance, measurements, amounts, dates, names, secrets, size of armies.

    Defeats and mistakes are never written in archeological evidence.
    But they are recorded in detail in Israel's history. A candor that is never seen anywhere else.
    Even to this day we see a bias account on WW2 events for the USA vs Japan and Germany.

    Archeological evidence - gives a sort of two dimensional viewpoint of things.
    Whereas the Bible gives different perspectives from different walks of life, shepherds, herdsmen, fishermen, farmers, a doctor, a tax collector, kings, priests, prophets, and scribes.
    The Bible is too good!
    Plaffelvohfen
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