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The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun

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    Arguments


  • GeoLibCogScientistGeoLibCogScientist 128 Pts   -  
    I think I need more specifics of what you mean before I try to persuade you otherwise.

    Are you speaking in terms of current methods we have for stopping criminals or any method whatsoever, even if we haven't tested it and is hypothetical?  Depending on what your answer is, I may actually agree with you.
    "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."
    -Albert Camus, Notebook IV

  • I think I need more specifics of what you mean before I try to persuade you otherwise.

    Are you speaking in terms of current methods we have for stopping criminals or any method whatsoever, even if we haven't tested it and is hypothetical?  Depending on what your answer is, I may actually agree with you.

    I am speaking within reason. So, in that respect yes, methods that one would use generally without a gun. I have not convinced any other method as of yet would be viable. I am also unaware of any new viable methods that would do better, and so I cannot comment on that. 




  • GeoLibCogScientistGeoLibCogScientist 128 Pts   -  
    I am speaking within reason. So, in that respect yes, methods that one would use generally without a gun. I have not convinced any other method as of yet would be viable. I am also unaware of any new viable methods that would do better, and so I cannot comment on that. 

    Ok, that's what I thought. I can think of some hypothetical methods I'd personally think would be better, and we certainly should be seeking better methods, but there's not one that is mainstream that I'm aware of or that is completely viable with our current technology. What I'm thinking of would require some further advancements in cognitive science in particular. So if we're assuming we are talking in the here and now, I suppose there's not anything I know of that's better. 
    "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."
    -Albert Camus, Notebook IV
  • GeoLibCogScientistGeoLibCogScientist 128 Pts   -   edited July 2019
    Though, actually, I've heard of some methods to help keep guns away from people who shouldn't have them. I know a good portion of shootings happen from people who weren't the original gun owner.

    There's a technology out there known as "smart guns" where only the fingerprints of the owner can trigger the gun. What's your thoughts on that? Indeed, it wouldn't stop all bad guys, as even bad guys get ahold of guns legally and are the owners sometimes, but it could certainly decrease the rate at which we have mass shootings and gun homicides.

    Since they aren't actually being made much, I think because the gun manufacturers don't want to for some reason, we don't really know how much they would decrease gun homicides by. 
    ZeusAres42
    "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."
    -Albert Camus, Notebook IV

  • There's a technology out there known as "smart guns" where only the fingerprints of the owner can trigger the gun. What's your thoughts on that? Indeed, it wouldn't stop all bad guys, as even bad guys get ahold of guns legally and are the owners sometimes, but it could certainly decrease the rate at which we have mass shootings and gun homicides.

    Since they aren't actually being made much, I think because the gun manufacturers don't want to for some reason, we don't really know how much they would decrease gun homicides by. 

    I haven't actually heard about that. Thanks for sharing. However, in real-time, I still do not see any other way to stop a person with a gun in an imminent situation unless you have a gun yourself. That being said, however, the mere possession of a firearm will not ensure that you will be safe from an armed assailant in an imminent situation. Other things need to be considered such as knowledge of how to actually use a firearm, how long has one been practicing, how well a person is able to cope under duress, etc. With all these things considered, it poses at least in my opinion as to the ultimate fighting chance against an opponent with a gun.



  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Though, actually, I've heard of some methods to help keep guns away from people who shouldn't have them. I know a good portion of shootings happen from people who weren't the original gun owner.

    There's a technology out there known as "smart guns" where only the fingerprints of the owner can trigger the gun. What's your thoughts on that? Indeed, it wouldn't stop all bad guys, as even bad guys get ahold of guns legally and are the owners sometimes, but it could certainly decrease the rate at which we have mass shootings and gun homicides.

    Since they aren't actually being made much, I think because the gun manufacturers don't want to for some reason, we don't really know how much they would decrease gun homicides by. 

    One of the biggest impediments has been caused by, (you guessed it), legislators.  New Jersey has passed the New Jersey Childproof Handgun Law which states;

    "The amended bill specifies that three years after it is determined that personalized handguns are available for retail purposes, it will be illegal for any registered or licensed firearms manufacturer or dealer to transport, sell, expose for sale, possess for sale, assign or transfer any handgun unless that handgun is a personalized handgun."

    Similar restrictions, either as laws or simply as regulations, have been proposed in several other states. Gun owners protested the sale of the Armatix iP1 out of fear that it would trigger such restrictions, and that the only firearm that could be sold in New Jersey (and possibly elsewhere) would be that .22LR automatic.
  • jesusisGod777jesusisGod777 115 Pts   -  
    The best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to have pointed him to Jesus God of creation so Jesus God of creation can change his heart before he becomes a bad guy with a gun.Jedus Is Lord.
    ZeusAres42
  • jesusisGod777jesusisGod777 115 Pts   -  
    Jesus*
    ZeusAres42
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    You say ..... However, in real-time, I still do not see any other way to stop a person with a gun in an imminent situation unless you have a gun yourself

    My reply .....How likely is that scenario to happen in your country? It’s incredible the difference in our societies even though we share a language we differ in so many ways a conversation like this would never happen in my country where the police force is totally unarmed except for elite units.

    The U S is rated 121st in world peace rankings my country is 4th gun free societies are more peaceful by and large , do you think guns in society are a good thing or a necessary thing? 


    CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @ZeusAres42

    You say ..... However, in real-time, I still do not see any other way to stop a person with a gun in an imminent situation unless you have a gun yourself

    My reply .....How likely is that scenario to happen in your country? It’s incredible the difference in our societies even though we share a language we differ in so many ways a conversation like this would never happen in my country where the police force is totally unarmed except for elite units.

    The U S is rated 121st in world peace rankings my country is 4th gun free societies are more peaceful by and large , do you think guns in society are a good thing or a necessary thing? 



    World peace rankings?!?  What does the size of the military and number of nuclear weapons have to do with this discussion?
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    You say ....world peace  rankings?!?  What does the size of the military and number of nuclear weapons have to do with this discussion?

    My reply ......And 70,000 gun accidents a year in the U S apart from the gun deaths , what is the function of nuclear weapons and guns? 


  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @CYDdharta

    You say ....world peace  rankings?!?  What does the size of the military and number of nuclear weapons have to do with this discussion?

    My reply ......And 70,000 gun accidents a year in the U S apart from the gun deaths , what is the function of nuclear weapons and guns? 


    I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but you should probably look for different (more reputable) sources.


  • @Dee

    Instead of thinking in terms of how likely this is to happen. How about thinking about this hypercritically? If this was happening then I do not see any other viable option to defend yourself unless you meed fire with fire in this particular instance. 

    Furthermore, my own country also has elite forces that use firearms, which are for extreme cases that involve firearm instances among others. 

    Moreover, I also contend that the mere possession of firearm is not the best possible defence in itself; there are other things that need to be considered. If most of the following criteria is met then the conclusion that the best way to defend yourself against a firearm is with a firearm: 
    • The gun owner knows how to use it and is sufficient in doing so. 
    • The gun owner makes sure to always have possession of the fire-am in instances where an attack could occur. 
    • The gun owner is familiar with with mental states such as apathy and paranoia. 
    • The gun owner is used to making action under duress. 
    In fact, if all the above criteria is met the criminal which is usually reckless stands far less chance of harming you. 



  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    You say ......I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but you should probably look for different (more reputable) sources.


    My reply .....More reputable sources....haha haha.....When I open your a link an advert comes up asking ......Do you want to win a free gun .......Hilarious 

  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    You say .....Instead of thinking in terms of how likely this is to happen. How about thinking about this hypercritically? If this was happening then I do not see any other viable option to defend yourself unless you meed fire with fire in this particular instance. 

    My reply ......But why is it people in the U S need to think this way when where I live this conversation never happens , the thoughts of me having to carry a gun everywhere I go would make me want to live somewhere else and I guess using this logic my wife would have to carry as well , what about kids how are they protected without carrying? 

    The question should be why is your society this way?
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @CYDdharta

    You say ......I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but you should probably look for different (more reputable) sources.


    My reply .....More reputable sources....haha haha.....When I open your a link an advert comes up asking ......Do you want to win a free gun .......Hilarious 


    ...and what comes up when we click on the link to your source?  Oh, that's right; you don't use sources.  You just make it up as you go along, apparently.

    If you'd have actually read the article, you'd have seen that those stats come from the National Safety Council.  Firearms aren't even in the list of Leading causes of preventable injury-related deaths,
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -   edited July 2019
    @CYDdharta

    You say ........and what comes up when we click on the link to your source?  Oh, that's right; you don't use sources.  You just make it up as you go along, apparently.

    My reply ......But I’ve given you sources before and you totally ignored them , American’s love their guns and seem to think they have no problems with gun deaths and gun accidents 1 and a half million gun deaths in the U S since 1968 and it’s not a problem right got ya 
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @CYDdharta

    You say ........and what comes up when we click on the link to your source?  Oh, that's right; you don't use sources.  You just make it up as you go along, apparently.

    My reply ......But I’ve given you sources before and you totally ignored them , American’s love their guns and seem to think they have no problems with gun deaths and gun accidents 1 and a half million gun deaths in the U S since 1968 and it’s not a problem right got ya 

    I didn't ignore your sources, I disproved them.  The sources you've posted before were completely unreliable.  No doubt the source for this stat is false as well, that is, if you even have a source.
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -   edited July 2019


    You say .....
    I didn't ignore your sources, I disproved them.  The sources you've posted before were completely unreliable.  No doubt the source for this stat is false as well, that is, if you even have a source.

    My reply .....Hilarious....this from a guy who posts a link up advertising a draw for a free gun Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha  carry on burying your head in the sand ......



    Gun Violence: Facts and Statistics

    According to the scientific literature, American children face a substantial risk of exposure to firearm injury and death. Following are additional relevant gun violence facts:

    In 2016, 4,648 young people ages 10-24 were victims of homicide - an average of 13 each day.

    Gun Violence Facts: In the Home

    • There are more than 393 million guns in circulation in the United States — approximately 120.5 guns for every 100 people.
    • 1.7 million children live with unlocked, loaded guns - 1 out of 3 homes with kids have guns.
    • In 2015, 2,824 children (age 0 to 19 years) died by gunshot and an additional 13,723 were injured.
    • An emergency department visit for non-fatal assault injury places a youth at 40 percent higher risk for subsequent firearm injury.
    • Those people that die from accidental shooting were more than three times as likely to have had a firearm in their home as those in the control group.
    • Among children, the majority (89%) of unintentional shooting deaths occur in the home. Most of these deaths occur when children are playing with a loaded gun in their parent’s absence.
    • People who report “firearm access” are at twice the risk of homicide and more than three times the risk of suicide compared to those who do not own or have access to firearms.
    • Suicide rates are much higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership, even after controlling for differences among states for poverty, urbanization, unemployment, mental illness, and alcohol or drug abuse.
    • Among suicide victims requiring hospital treatment, suicide attempts with a firearm are much more deadly than attempts by jumping or drug poisoning — 90 percent die compared to 34 percent and 2 percent respectively. About 90 percent of those that survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide.
    • States implementing universal background checks and mandatory waiting periods prior to the purchase of a firearm show lower rates of suicides than states without this legislation. To read more about suicide and firearms, click here.
    • In states with increased gun availability, death rates from gunshots for children were higher than in states with less availability.
    • The vast majority of accidental firearm deaths among children are related to child access to firearms — either self-inflicted or at the hands of another child.
    • Studies have shown that states with Child Access Prevention (CAP) laws laws have a lower rate of unintentional death than states without CAP laws.
    • Domestic violence is more likely to turn deadly with a gun in the home. An abusive partner’s access to a firearm increases the risk of homicide eight-fold for women in physically abusive relationships. Read more about the impact of child exposure to domestic violence.

  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:


    You say .....
    I didn't ignore your sources, I disproved them.  The sources you've posted before were completely unreliable.  No doubt the source for this stat is false as well, that is, if you even have a source.

    My reply .....Hilarious....this from a guy who posts a link up advertising a draw for a free gun Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha  carry on burying your head in the sand ......



    Gun Violence: Facts and Statistics

    According to the scientific literature, American children face a substantial risk of exposure to firearm injury and death. Following are additional relevant gun violence facts:

    In 2016, 4,648 young people ages 10-24 were victims of homicide - an average of 13 each day.

    Gun Violence Facts: In the Home

    • There are more than 393 million guns in circulation in the United States — approximately 120.5 guns for every 100 people.
    • 1.7 million children live with unlocked, loaded guns - 1 out of 3 homes with kids have guns.
    • In 2015, 2,824 children (age 0 to 19 years) died by gunshot and an additional 13,723 were injured.
    • An emergency department visit for non-fatal assault injury places a youth at 40 percent higher risk for subsequent firearm injury.
    • Those people that die from accidental shooting were more than three times as likely to have had a firearm in their home as those in the control group.
    • Among children, the majority (89%) of unintentional shooting deaths occur in the home. Most of these deaths occur when children are playing with a loaded gun in their parent’s absence.
    • People who report “firearm access” are at twice the risk of homicide and more than three times the risk of suicide compared to those who do not own or have access to firearms.
    • Suicide rates are much higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership, even after controlling for differences among states for poverty, urbanization, unemployment, mental illness, and alcohol or drug abuse.
    • Among suicide victims requiring hospital treatment, suicide attempts with a firearm are much more deadly than attempts by jumping or drug poisoning — 90 percent die compared to 34 percent and 2 percent respectively. About 90 percent of those that survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide.
    • States implementing universal background checks and mandatory waiting periods prior to the purchase of a firearm show lower rates of suicides than states without this legislation. To read more about suicide and firearms, click here.
    • In states with increased gun availability, death rates from gunshots for children were higher than in states with less availability.
    • The vast majority of accidental firearm deaths among children are related to child access to firearms — either self-inflicted or at the hands of another child.
    • Studies have shown that states with Child Access Prevention (CAP) laws laws have a lower rate of unintentional death than states without CAP laws.
    • Domestic violence is more likely to turn deadly with a gun in the home. An abusive partner’s access to a firearm increases the risk of homicide eight-fold for women in physically abusive relationships. Read more about the impact of child exposure to domestic violence.


    Ah, there's the problem; CHoP goes back to the CDC's WISQARS stats.  Even the CDC and gun-ban proponents at The Trace have said WISQARS' stats are unreilable

    But the gun injury estimate is one of several categories of CDC data with an asterisk indicating that, according to the agency’s own standards, it should be treated as “unstable and potentially unreliable.” In fact, the agency’s 2016 estimate of gun injuries is more uncertain than nearly every other type of injury it tracks.

    See, I don't ignore sources, I disprove them.  And as I said before, you should probably look for different (more reputable) sources.



  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    You say ....See, I don't ignore sources, I disprove them.  And as I said before, you should probably look for different (more reputable) sources.

    My reply ....You don’t disprove anything you give your opinion by quoting stats from sites that offer to enter your name in a draw for a free gun , maybe it’s you needs to get a non NRA backed site for some info or else do your usual and bury your head in the sand as usual 
    CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @CYDdharta

    You say ....See, I don't ignore sources, I disprove them.  And as I said before, you should probably look for different (more reputable) sources.

    My reply ....You don’t disprove anything you give your opinion by quoting stats from sites that offer to enter your name in a draw for a free gun , maybe it’s you needs to get a non NRA backed site for some info or else do your usual and bury your head in the sand as usual 

    ...and you gave your opinion by using stats that even the authors have stated are "unstable and potentially unreliable". 

    LOL, the NRA backs the anti-gun website The Trace?!?  You are demented.

  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    You say .....LOL, the NRA backs the anti-gun website The Trace?!?  You are demented

    My reply .....Where did I state that? I said you posted stats from a site that offers to enter your name in a free draw for a gun , no doubt you will say it’s a draw for a free holiday and not a gun you Americans and your alternative facts 
    CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @CYDdharta

    You say .....LOL, the NRA backs the anti-gun website The Trace?!?  You are demented

    My reply .....Where did I state that? I said you posted stats from a site that offers to enter your name in a free draw for a gun , no doubt you will say it’s a draw for a free holiday and not a gun you Americans and your alternative facts 


    You said I didn't prove anything, but as I've already demonstrated, even The Trace says your stats are garbage.  Perhaps it's just your unfamiliarity with using sources and I confused you by using more than one.  Keep practicing, some day you'll get it.

    As for my stats, once again if you'd have actually read the article, you'd have seen that those stats come from the National Safety Council.  Firearms aren't even in the list of Leading causes of preventable injury-related deaths.

    PlaffelvohfenDee
  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  
    @CYDdharta

    Right , the acclaimed Centre  for Injury and prevention is garbage because a gun nut says so got ya . Yet a source that offers a chance to win a free gun is “accurate” .......are you on drugs buddy?

    Here you go again suck it up .....In 2016, 4,648 young people ages 10-24 were victims of homicide - an average of 13 each day.

    Gun Violence Facts: In the Home

    • There are more than 393 million guns in circulation in the United States — approximately 120.5 guns for every 100 people.
    • 1.7 million children live with unlocked, loaded guns - 1 out of 3 homes with kids have guns.
    • In 2015, 2,824 children (age 0 to 19 years) died by gunshot and an additional 13,723 were injured.
    • An emergency department visit for non-fatal assault injury places a youth at 40 percent higher risk for subsequent firearm injury.
    • Those people that die from accidental shooting were more than three times as likely to have had a firearm in their home as those in the control group.
    • Among children, the majority (89%) of unintentional shooting deaths occur in the home. Most of these deaths occur when children are playing with a loaded gun in their parent’s absence.
    • People who report “firearm access” are at twice the risk of homicide and more than three times the risk of suicide compared to those who do not own or have access to firearms.
    CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @CYDdharta

    Right , the acclaimed Centre  for Injury and prevention is garbage because a gun nut says so got ya . Yet a source that offers a chance to win a free gun is “accurate” .......are you on drugs buddy?

    Here you go again suck it up .....In 2016, 4,648 young people ages 10-24 were victims of homicide - an average of 13 each day.

    Gun Violence Facts: In the Home

    • There are more than 393 million guns in circulation in the United States — approximately 120.5 guns for every 100 people.
    • 1.7 million children live with unlocked, loaded guns - 1 out of 3 homes with kids have guns.
    • In 2015, 2,824 children (age 0 to 19 years) died by gunshot and an additional 13,723 were injured.
    • An emergency department visit for non-fatal assault injury places a youth at 40 percent higher risk for subsequent firearm injury.
    • Those people that die from accidental shooting were more than three times as likely to have had a firearm in their home as those in the control group.
    • Among children, the majority (89%) of unintentional shooting deaths occur in the home. Most of these deaths occur when children are playing with a loaded gun in their parent’s absence.
    • People who report “firearm access” are at twice the risk of homicide and more than three times the risk of suicide compared to those who do not own or have access to firearms.

    And once again, their stats are garbage.  Even they admit their stats are "unstable and potentially unreliable."

  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -  

    @CYDdharta

    You say .....And once again, their stats are garbage.  Even they admit their stats are "unstable and potentially unreliable."

    My reply .....Of course they are , America has no gun problems which is why Americans need a gun to walk the dog , go to work , or need several in the house in case of home invasion and why security guards are needed in schools in case a nut with a gun goes on the rampage .....but hey guns don’t kill people etc , etc , Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 
    CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1823 Pts   -  
    Dee said:

    @CYDdharta

    You say .....And once again, their stats are garbage.  Even they admit their stats are "unstable and potentially unreliable."

    My reply .....Of course they are , America has no gun problems which is why Americans need a gun to walk the dog , go to work , or need several in the house in case of home invasion and why security guards are needed in schools in case a nut with a gun goes on the rampage .....but hey guns don’t kill people etc , etc , Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 

    Incorrect, there is no requirement that Americans have a gun to walk the dog , go to work , or possess several in the house in case of home invasion or even hire security guards in schools.  We have the freedom to choose to carry a gun to walk the dog, (most companies have rules prohibiting firearms on their property, which explain why there are so many workplace shootings), or choose to have several in the house in case of home invasion.  I'm not sure what security guards in schools have to do with this discussion, as the vast majority of them are unarmed.


  • DeeDee 5395 Pts   -   edited August 2019

    You say .....Incorrect, there is no requirement that Americans have a gun to walk the dog , go to work , or possess several in the house in case of home invasion or even hire security guards in schools


    My reply ....I never said it was a requirement did I? So tell me when do Americans carry guns in public is there a special hour or event that’s mutually decided on?


    You say .  I'm not sure what security guards in schools have to do with this discussion, as the vast majority of them are unarmed.


    My reply .....We don’t even require unarmed ones in schools where I live .......


    “The vast majority unarmed” more alternative facts from you ........


    Armed security officers are becoming more prevalent at America’s schools, according to a federal study released Thursday amid a heated debate over whether teachers and other school officials should carry guns.

    Armed officers were present at least once a week in 43% of all public schools during the 2015-16 school year, compared with 31% of schools a decade before, according to data from a survey conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics.



    Only in the U S does one face the threat of getting shot in school 

  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 1121 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I get what your saying in regards to because there aren't strict boundaries the gun control laws aren't effective.My argument would be that the numbers in Chicago ect. though aren't the same as the surrounding areas, but are significantly higher. 

    While other factors come into play, the laws in these places are still making it somewhat more difficult to gain access to a gun, yet have higher gun rates than the surrounding areas they can get them from.

    @Dee

    I know were just talking about gun deaths, but another reason for gun laws in America in to prevent a tyrannical government (something South Africa has had trouble with and white farmers are struggling with today).  Governments must be accountable to the people. 

    Also you always seem to think that it is a terrible society to live in if someone wants a gun to protect their home, but your perfectly fine with setting an alarm every night (paranoid enough to not miss setting it in 20 years).  Its just a safety net, it's not that were super paranoid about being robbed.  Also according the CDC Americans use guns as a form of self defense 500,000 to 3,000,000.

    There is a lot of data shown for both sides of the argument, some showing gun control being effective and others not.  It depends on many factors including how homogeneous the country is, the culture, how many guns were in the country before the laws were implemented, ect.  A buyback is virtually the same thing as stealing because the government is buying back your property with money they received from you.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers
    the laws in these places are still making it somewhat more difficult to gain access to a gun
    Sure, more difficult access for people, in Chicago... But what does that even mean when you're less than 35 miles away from half a dozen gun shops in Gary Indiana and that inter-state borders/customs checks are nonexistent??

    I'm only concerned about the arguments in themselves here, some anti-gun arguments are flawed some pro-gun arguments are flawed (like this one), some are valid on both sides, that is the only aspect of the debate in which I'm interested really because the only reason anyone in the US needs to give me to justify owning a gun (if they feel they need to to begin with) is: "F**k you, I love guns", which is fine with me... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 1121 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Right I get what your saying, but that is still 35 miles more difficult, it is still a slight inconvenience.  My main point being the that the guns deaths are higher not the same as surrounding areas when guns are more accessible.
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