To what extent should the world adapt to the needs of transgender people? - The Best Online Debate Website | DebateIsland.com - Debate Anything The Best Online Debate Website | DebateIsland.com
frame

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

The Best Online Debate Website | DebateIsland.com. The only online debate website with Casual, Persuade Me, Formalish, and Formal Online Debate formats. We’re the leading online debate website. Debate popular topics, debate news, or debate anything! Debate online for free! DebateIsland is utilizing Artifical Intelligence to transform online debating.


The best online Debate website - DebateIsland.com! The only Online Debate Website with Casual, Persuade Me, Formalish, and Formal Online Debate formats. We’re the Leading Online Debate website. Debate popular topics, Debate news, or Debate anything! Debate online for free!

To what extent should the world adapt to the needs of transgender people?
in Politics

By AnkozzzAnkozzz 14 Pts
should they be able to use any bathroom at anytime?
should they be able to participate in whichever sport they want (women’s/men’s)?
should it be required that transgender people who have fully transitioned tell their significant other what their true gender at birth was before marriage?



Debra AI Prediction

Predicted To Win
Predicted To Win
Tie

Details +



Arguments

  • DeeDee 704 Pts
    You ask .....should they be able to use any bathroom at anytime?

    My reply ......No they shouldn’t , and should be ejected from public buildings for doing so

    You ask ......should they be able to participate in whichever sport they want (women’s/men’s)?

    My reply ......If they pass a medical and it’s decided they are one or the other as in male /female sure 

    You say .......should it be required that transgender people who have fully transitioned tell their significant other what their true gender at birth was before marriage?

    My reply ......Well to me honesty in relationships is important but good luck with making it a legal requirement, I guess a partner would find out through talking with their partners family and friends 
  • Ankozzz said:
    should they be able to use any bathroom at anytime?
    should they be able to participate in whichever sport they want (women’s/men’s)?
    should it be required that transgender people who have fully transitioned tell their significant other what their true gender at birth was before marriage?
    1: Yes...
    2: I honestly can't say as I lack information... But my feeling is that this should be evaluated on a case by case basis... 
    3: Well, if they don't their relationship is doomed... But making it a legal requirement would be unconstitutional, privacy issue... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Yes trans women deserve the right to the restroom that matches their identity.

    Yes they should be able to participate in whichever sport they wish as long as they meet certain physical requirements to do so. Like having a fitness test done before their training to participate so a medical professional can asses whether they have advanced enough in their transition to match the sex they will be competing against.

    I think it should be more of a moral requirement for trans persons to share this information with their partners as soon as possible.
    Although, I think you are confusing gender with biological sex in this question because trans persons are born trans, they just have not realized it for however long it took for them to do so. A trans woman is born male in body, but female in mind/self, so it is unfair to classify their gender as matching their sex at birth. That would mean they were at one point CIS gender and changed into transgender later on, which would mean that they are not trans because of development, they are trans because of social or self circumstance. Like when someone thinks of themselves as trans because of traumatic situations with a male family member (which does happen). Trans women are only labelled "Trans" in order to differentiate between them and CIS women. They are still as much women as any CIS women are, they were just born with different equipment. That being said no man should assume that a woman they are dating is CIS gender. They should ask (no it is not an insult to ask) what that person's identity is and if it matches their biological sex. They cannot just solely leave it to the trans person to say something, because if someone wants to know they should speak up about it. Requesting such information is not an attack against the trans woman or trans man, if anything it is a compliment to them because odds are they pass as their gender identity without having to say what it is. On the other-hand a trans person should not need to "Pass" as their gender identity in order to be considered or seen as said identity.

    Sorry for lengthy post, it is a topic I am passionate about lol
  • WinstonCWinstonC 114 Pts
    edited July 19
    @Maddy_Sindel "Yes trans women deserve the right to the restroom that matches their identity."

    Post-operation I 100% agree, however what about pre-operation? I view gender-segregation in bathrooms as a protection for women against some sexually predatory men.

    "Yes they should be able to participate in whichever sport they wish as long as they meet certain physical requirements to do so. Like having a fitness test done before their training to participate so a medical professional can asses whether they have advanced enough in their transition to match the sex they will be competing against."

    Trans-women have a biological advantage over biological women. The easiest way to prove this without going into bodily structure and bone density (both of which advantage men) is that we don't allow athletes to take steroids. Steroids are essentially testosterone: the male sex hormone. If a trans-woman transitions at age 20, for example, they have effectively been on steroids for 20 years when compared with their biologically female rivals.
  • @WinstonC
    Post-operation I 100% agree, however what about pre-operation?
    What's the difference? I don't see any... They are women, pre-op and post-op...
    I view gender-segregation in bathrooms as a protection for women against some sexually predatory men.
    1: Trans-women are NOT men... They are as much at risk than cis-women... It could be argued that it would even be riskier for the trans-women to use men bathroom...
    2: But anyway, how is a symbol on a door any protection from anything? How many occurrences of sexual agressions by trans women on cis-women in bathrooms across the US?? 

    This is an unfounded and irrational fear imo...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1872 Pts
    "should they be able to use any bathroom at anytime?"
    Private bathroom owners can set their own rules.
    Public bathrooms should all be unisex.

    "should they be able to participate in whichever sport they want (women’s/men’s)?"
    Private sport event organisers can set their own rules.
    Public sports should all be unisex.

    "should it be required that transgender people who have fully transitioned tell their significant other what their true gender at birth was before marriage?"
    No, as that would be infringement on people's right for free speech.
    Granted, someone who knows so little about their partner that isn't aware that they have transitioned, probably, should not be considering marrying them. But if they do, it is their business.
  • WinstonCWinstonC 114 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen You misunderstand me, I'm not saying that trans-women are going to be sexually predatory towards biological women. I'm saying that predatory men can simply claim to be trans-women.
  • You asked if they should be able to use any bathroom at anytime and i say no they shouldn't post & pre-operation because they still are there assigned gender at birth 

    you asked if they should be able to participate in whatever sport they like and that is definite no because men's body's and brains are more fitted to sports so they are better than women at it so it would be unfair to let men who think that they are female participate in women sports because he will break all the records 

    You asked if it should be necessary for them to tell them there assigned gender when entering a relationship and i say yeah it should be a legal obligation because if they don't but then find out they may feel uncomfortable with that and break up with you and yes they should love you for you but that is impossible when they don't know who you really are 
  • You asked if they should be able to use any bathroom at anytime and i say no they shouldn't post & pre-operation because they still are there assigned gender at birth 

    You asked if they should be able to participate in whatever sport they like and that is definite no because men's body's and brains are more fitted to sports so they are better than women at it so it would be unfair to let men who think that they are female participate in women sports because he will break all the records 

    You asked if it should be necessary for them to tell them there assigned gender when entering a relationship and i say yeah it should be a legal obligation because if they don't but then find out they may feel uncomfortable with that and break up with you and yes they should love you for you but that is impossible when they don't know who you really are 
  • @WinstonC

    What is to prevent predatory men for doing that at anytime already?
    Why would they claim to be trans when they already can claim to be cis-women?

    There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, according to a new study from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law. The study is the first of its kind to rigorously test the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

    “Opponents of public accommodations laws that include gender identity protections often claim that the laws leave women and children vulnerable to attack in public restrooms,” said lead author Amira Hasenbush. “But this study provides evidence that these incidents are rare and unrelated to the laws.”

    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1872 Pts
    edited July 19
    This bathroom argument is really bizarre. Has anyone actually seen any predatory behavior in public bathrooms? Not saying it never happens, but it seems to rare to seriously consider it.

    Even if we assume that there are no exploits allowing women to go into men's bathrooms and men to go into women's bathrooms, absolutely nothing can prevent a gay guy or a lesbian girl from going into their bathrooms and "sexually predating" on people. Not to mention that sexual predatory behaviors are already outlawed anyway, so no bathroom laws are going to defend people from anything they are not already defended from by the law.

    I have used unisex bathrooms, which are basically free for all, many times, and no issues ever arose. Unisex bathrooms work fine all over the world. Why do people look for problems where there are none to be found?
    Plaffelvohfen
  • WinstonCWinstonC 114 Pts
    edited July 20
    @Plaffelvohfen "What is to prevent predatory men for doing that at anytime already? Why would they claim to be trans when they already can claim to be cis-women?"

    It's rather obvious in the vast majority of cases if someone actually is a cis-woman. Also, it would be on their ID.

    "There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, according to a new study from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law."

    Actually there is (1, 2). Now, I appreciate that my bias will lead me to studies which support my perspective, however logically it makes sense that if there is greater opportunity for voyeurism, more voyeurism will occur. "Voyeurism" and "upskirting" are in fact so popular that they have their very own categories on most porn sites.

    Another point to consider regarding your citation is that looking at the "localities with clear GIPANDOs" group, we actually see an increase in average incidents post implementation that is proportionally far larger than that for "matched localities without GIPANDOs". I would expect that if another method of analysis, for example the chi-squared test, was used, significant results would be found. Fisher's exact test is mostly used for small sample sizes and is very conservative in reporting significant results; it leans heavily toward confirming the null hypothesis. As it stands, the authors have effectively reduced their sample size (which forced them to use Fisher's exact test) by comparing localities instead of aggregating the people and incidents in the localities and comparing the overall incidence rates. This decreases the external validity of the study greatly.

    Further, it would appear to me that if someone who is obviously male was in the female bathroom prior to these laws passing he would be immediately reported. After the passage of these laws, though, males would not be reported as often for merely standing in the female bathroom, because they might be trans. This could decrease the numbers of reports, because a male in the female bathroom wouldn't immediately be reported.

    Sources:
    (1) https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html
    (2) https://womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

  • WinstonCWinstonC 114 Pts
    @MayCaesar "Has anyone actually seen any predatory behavior in public bathrooms?"

    Search "voyeur bathroom" or similar on a porn site. Strictly for research purposes, of course.

    "absolutely nothing can prevent a gay guy or a lesbian girl from going into their bathrooms and "sexually predating" on people."

    This is true, however I don't see lesbian women as being as likely as men to try to peek at women in the bathroom, do you?

    "sexual predatory behaviors are already outlawed anyway, so no bathroom laws are going to defend people from anything they are not already defended from by the law."

    If someone peeks over your bathroom stall, how you are going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it happened? Unless they take a photo or video there is no evidence. On the other hand, if bathrooms are gender-segregated and they are caught on CCTV entering the female bathroom when they are male, this is evidence.

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1872 Pts
    @WinstonC

    Well, simply peeking over a bathroom stall is such a minor thing, I would not worry about it at all. People probably do it involuntarily by accident from time to time anyway, so it is nothing out of the ordinary.

    It is another matter when someone, say, records a hidden video of you in a bathroom. And that can be pretty easily proven, as long as there are cameras installed in the bathroom - which many modern bathrooms have.

    What you are proposing may unjustly penalise people in the situations where they accidentally enter the wrong bathroom, for example. It happened to me a couple of times on highway rest stops, when the labelling system is so confusing, you sometimes can only guess what gender the bathroom is for once you enter it.
  • WinstonCWinstonC 114 Pts
    @MayCaesar "Well, simply peeking over a bathroom stall is such a minor thing, I would not worry about it at all."

    Would you say that to a scared 14 year old girl that felt violated because they had been spied on?

    "...And that can be pretty easily proven, as long as there are cameras installed in the bathroom - which many modern bathrooms have."

    What proportion of public bathrooms have CCTV? Also, it's always possible to install your own hidden camera in a stall, which wouldn't be caught on CCTV or known about unless someone found the camera (CCTV doesn't see inside the stalls, to maintain privacy).

    "What you are proposing may unjustly penalise people in the situations where they accidentally enter the wrong bathroom"

    No, I'm saying that in the case that something untoward does happen there is corroborating evidence that the man was indeed in the bathroom. This could come from CCTV or witness reports. Without such corroborating evidence it's the victim's word against the perpetrator's, which is insufficient for a conviction.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1872 Pts
    @WinstonC

    "Would you say that to a scared 14 year old girl that felt violated because they had been spied on?"
    Yes, albeit not so bluntly. Teenagers are very sensitive, and it is important to break everything out to them in a way that also makes them feel that you sympathise with their concern.

    "What proportion of public bathrooms have CCTV? Also, it's always possible to install your own hidden camera in a stall, which wouldn't be caught on CCTV or known about unless someone found the camera (CCTV doesn't see inside the stalls, to maintain privacy)."
    Not many, but the proportion is likely to increase dramatically in the future. I agree that you cannot capture everything with a CCTV, but the same applies to your prior argument. A man could, for example, wear a cap hiding his gender, walk in, peak around and leave the bathroom - and you will never prove it was him based on the camera footage.

    "No, I'm saying that in the case that something untoward does happen there is corroborating evidence that the man was indeed in the bathroom. This could come from CCTV or witness reports. Without such corroborating evidence it's the victim's word against the perpetrator's, which is insufficient for a conviction."
    But people can sometimes picture things, make things up even. What if I get sued for entering a women's bathroom and peaking at women, and the camera, indeed, shows that it happened - even if in reality I had not realised it was a women's bathroom and only figured it out when I saw a woman leave a cabin? I may be unjustly convicted for a simple genuine mistake.

    I believe that we are overthinking all of this too much. There is absolutely no reason unisex bathroom with no strings attached cannot work, and they have worked in multiple countries for a very long time. Individual cases may come up, but in general it should be one of the last concerns in our society.
  • WinstonCWinstonC 114 Pts
    @MayCaesar "Yes, albeit not so bluntly. Teenagers are very sensitive, and it is important to break everything out to them in a way that also makes them feel that you sympathise with their concern."

    Do you think we should do away with voyeurism laws altogether then?

    "I agree that you cannot capture everything with a CCTV, but the same applies to your prior argument."

    My point is that allowing regular men into female bathrooms will have negative repercussions.

    "A man could, for example, wear a cap hiding his gender, walk in, peak around and leave the bathroom - and you will never prove it was him based on the camera footage."

    Actually, in crimes where people hide their identity often CCTV catches them taking off their disguise, or notices the person due to their clothing without the disguise. Note that in your example whoever was peeked on would have to notice it happening and report it to the police, as with any other incident. In any case, this is a reverse nirvana fallacy; just because it isn't impossible for someone to get away with a crime does not mean that we should remove existing safeguards against said crime.

    "What if I get sued for entering a women's bathroom and peaking at women, and the camera, indeed, shows that it happened - even if in reality I had not realised it was a women's bathroom and only figured it out when I saw a woman leave a cabin?"

    The string of events you are describing seems very unlikely: it's not hard to read the sign on the door and if it was then you would have a reasonable excuse for your mistake. I'm no legal expert but I'd also imagine that in cross-examination of the witness they would be asked if they actually saw you peeking at them. Provided that there was some reason for the mixup (e.g. an unclear sign) and the witness didn't lie (or was caught in the lie) then the jury would not be able to find you guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". I'm way out of my depth discussing legal matters in depth though so I could be missing something.

    "...in general it should be one of the last concerns in our society."

    I would say the same about pre-op trans people using the bathroom of their biological sex (or the disabled bathroom if the former causes issues) for the period before their surgery. I often use the disabled bathroom myself and it's always far nicer than the male bathroom.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Back To Top

DebateIsland.com

| The Best Online Debate Experience!
2019 DebateIsland.com, All rights reserved. DebateIsland.com | The Best Online Debate Experience! Debate topics you care about in a friendly and fun way. Come try us out now. We are totally free!

Contact us

customerservice@debateisland.com
Awesome Debates
BestDealWins.com
Terms of Service

Get In Touch