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floody day
in Religion

By maxxmaxx 51 Pts
the flood in where noah and his family were saved; the story in the bible was borrowed from an earlier story of the sumerians ; which is not to say that the flood did not happen, except that it was a borrowed story and was not world wide, but a local event.
DanielRecktenwald



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  • ethang5ethang5 140 Pts
    @maxx

    How do you know it was borrowed? You offered no proof. Are we to just accept your word as gospel?

    Is it possible that you think the Noah story was borrowed simply because the Sumerian story was earlier?

    Flood are not rare on the earth. Here's a question. Is it possible that those are two stories of floods that both did happen?

    Or, is it possible both stories could be referring to the same flood?

    >...and was not world wide, but a local event.

    Again, how do you know this? Or are we again supposed to take your word on faith?
  • maxxmaxx 51 Pts
    Possibly, I could show the book I got it from and the archeological evidence seemed pretty conclusive with the time period@ there may have been 2 floods but the area records only one for the Sumerians and that is where almost all biblical discoveries take place 
  • SandSand 69 Pts
    Archeological evidence is one dimensional. The Bible has corrected archeological data over and over again. You can discern wrong information from archeological data. I think maxx is a hype man. He just bringing up topics to speak about. OK, maxx the answer is the Bible has named eyewitnesses of the event, chronology, time documented in days, months, and years. The Sumerians lack evidence. 
    What year did the Sumerian flood take place?
    How do you know it is before the Biblical flood?
    How do they know it was local?
  • maxxmaxx 51 Pts
    edited July 8
    @Sand the babalonian version dates to about 1700 bc and it has to do with the strata of the area where they found a layer of clay and the only way the layer of clay could be there at that time was due to a locally heavy flood.  below that layer were artifacts of humans and as well as above. they can date these layers and know when this flood took place. it was local because the layer that they found(clay) was only in a certain area. anyone could look this up.  there is a well know author of G.S. Wegener, as well as a documented archeologist who wrote a history book called 6000 years of the bible. no I did not make my post up; I borrowed it from this author and until you read a bit upon him, and attempt to classify my post as fake, I would suggest you do some research of your own

  • @Sand
    How do they know it was local?
    A world-wide deluge, such as described in Genesis, is incompatible with modern scientific understanding of natural history, especially geology and paleontology.
    That is how we know for a fact, that every flood stories were local occurrences... 
    How do you know it is before the Biblical flood?
    What year did the Sumerian flood take place?
    Let's see... According to biblical scholars, the Flood happened in 2348 BCE... 

    Various archaeologists suggest there actually were multiple historical floods between 3000 to 5000 BCE all around the globe, the inter-glacial period had begun and sea level were rising inducing damming and more important rainfalls. One such flood hit lands ranging from the Black Sea to the flood plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Excavations in Iraq have revealed evidence of localized flooding at Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other Sumerian cities. A layer of riverine sediments, radiocarbon dated to about 2900 BC, interrupts the continuity of settlement, extending as far north as the city of Kish, which took over hegemony after the flood. 

    In Israel, there is no such evidence of a widespread flood.......

    The oldest Hebrew manuscripts discovered yet, including those of the Dead Sea Scrolls, date to about the 2nd century BCE. The common traditional dating of the Pentateuch suggests it was written between the 16th century and the 12th century BCE. So let's go with the oldest we can and say 1600 BCE for the age of the bible.

    Sumerian literature is the earliest known literature, the Sumerians invented one of the first writing systems by about the 30th century BCE (so abourt 1500 years before the Hebrews). There was already a flood myth in Sumerian cultures (The Epic of Atrahasis and the Epic of Gilgamesh). The translation of many ancient cuneiform tablets confirmed the Mesopotamian flood myth as an antecedent of the Noah story in the Bible.

    Given the similarities in the Mesopotamian flood story and the Biblical account, it would seem that they have a common origin in the memories of the Shuruppak account.

    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 140 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    How do they know it was local?
    >A world-wide deluge, such as described in Genesis, is incompatible with modern scientific understanding of natural history, especially geology and paleontology.
    That is how we know for a fact, that every flood stories were local occurrences...

    There is no natural history of Noah's flood. And geology and paleontology operate only on current knowledge and have both been wrong before.
    How do you know it is before the Biblical flood?
    What year did the Sumerian flood take place?
    >Let's see... According to biblical scholars, the Flood happened in 2348 BCE... 

    Which flood? If they mean Noah's flood, they certainly are wrong.

    >Various archaeologists suggest there actually were multiple historical floods between 3000 to 5000 BCE all around the globe,...

    There have always been floods.

    >In Israel, there is no such evidence of a widespread flood....

    What would such "evidence" be? Noah's flood preceded the founding Israel.

    >The oldest Hebrew manuscripts discovered yet, including those of the Dead Sea Scrolls, date to about the 2nd century BCE. The common traditional dating of the Pentateuch suggests it was written between the 16th century and the 12th century BCE. So let's go with the oldest we can and say 1600 BCE for the age of the bible.

    The age of the bible is off topic.

    >Sumerian literature is the earliest known literature, the Sumerians invented one of the first writing systems by about the 30th century BCE (so abourt 1500 years before the Hebrews).

    This is off topic.

    >There was already a flood myth in Sumerian cultures (The Epic of Atrahasis and the Epic of Gilgamesh). The translation of many ancient cuneiform tablets confirmed the Mesopotamian flood myth as an antecedent of the Noah story in the Bible.

    An earlier date for the Mesopotamian flood is not evidence that the Noah story is derivative.

    >Given the similarities in the Mesopotamian flood story and the Biblical account, it would seem that they have a common origin in the memories of the Shuruppak account.

    Nonsense. Similarities? It's a flood, how different can flood stories be?

    And who in Israel could read Sumerian? People did not widely travel or live multiculturally back then.

    You are assuming your bias.

    Plaffelvohfen
  • maxxmaxx 51 Pts
    edited July 9
    @ethang5 there is nothing like a closed mind, unable to accept ideas contrary to ones cherished beliefs. stories are borrowed from earlier versions all of the time. I cant read much german but I know about the ledgend of santa claus. Israel did not have to know summerian for th story was handed down. yes we could argue dates; but I can not see you believing dates anymore than you will believe mine.  there are way too many similarities between gilgimaesh and the biblical flood not to have been related. look it up.  not online. go to a good library and find some science journals and books on archeology. let me ask you people something; why couldn't the biblical flood had been borrowed from another source? Just because you think it violates a biblical truth? with that attitude we may as well still be paying indulgences to a church to get into heaven.
  • @ethang5

    What are you trying to say...? Are you trying to say that there was actually a global flood or that there wasn't? 
    Nonsense. Similarities? It's a flood, how different can flood stories be?
    There are very different flood stories from that period (early bronze age / late neolithic) all around the globe...

    China (no ark, no pairs of animals), Mesoamerican flood myths has a man and his dog as the sole survivors of the deluge, but the man finds out that the dog takes the shape of a woman during the day when he is away. The man and the dogwoman then repopulate the earth.  In the Norse mythology, Bergelmir and his wife alone among the giants were the only survivors of the enormous deluge of blood which flowed from Ymir's wounds when he was killed by Odin... There are a lot of very different flood stories, the Mayans, India, Korea...

    In Sumerian texts the God Enki wants to destroy humanity because they are too noisy (of all things), Enlil (the other God) warns the hero of the coming storm flood and instructs him to build a giant boat and gather his family and pairs of every animals... After the storm ends and the land is covered in water, Atrahasis (the sumerian Noah) released a bird (a raven instead of a dove here) who brings him back a branch, showing that the water was receding and land was drying, they go on repopulating the Earth... 

    The similarities between the Sumerian and Bible myth are too numerous to be coincidences... And since the Sumerian texts predate the Hebrew texts by at least 1500 years, it would be... questionable... to say the the Bible story is an original rather than a subsequent adaptation of this older Sumerian myth... It would be like saying Vanilla Ice song "Ice Ice Babies" was not influenced at all by Queen's Under Pressure or worst, that it predates it...
     
    I don't know what is your point of contention... Do you think the Bible Flood was an actual unique and global event or not? 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 140 Pts
    @maxx

    >why couldn't the biblical flood had been borrowed from another source?

    Because it is true. You have to give me more than just your opinion to make me consider an alternate story.

    >Just because you think it violates a biblical truth? I will not believe just because you say it.

    Truth is truth, biblical or not.

    >look it up.  not online. go to a good library and find some science journals and books on archeology.

    I have 2 college degrees and I've been online since 1993. I doubt you are as educated as I in science. Your opinion does not impress me.

    >with that attitude we may as well still be paying indulgences to a church to get into heaven.

    I haven't a clue what that has to do with our topic. I am not the silly little caricature of a religious person you have in your mind.

    I asked you for proof, you offered opinion. Thing are not true because you think they are. If you wish to believe them without valid support, fine, but I won't.
  • ethang5ethang5 140 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    >The similarities between the Sumerian and Bible myth are too numerous to be coincidences...

    I agree. That is one of the reasons why I disagree that the Noah story was borrowed.

    >And since the Sumerian texts predate the Hebrew texts by at least 1500 years, it would be... questionable... to say the the Bible story is an original rather than a subsequent adaptation of this older Sumerian myth...

    IF the Sumerian story actually predated the Hebrew story. Notice I said "story" not "text".

    >It would be like saying Vanilla Ice song "Ice Ice Babies" was not influenced at all by Queen's Under Pressure or worst, that it predates it...

    Was it Queen or David Bowie?
     
    >I don't know what is your point of contention... Do you think the Bible Flood was an actual unique and global event or not?

    We have not arrived at that point yet. My contention is simply that the Noah story was not borrowed.
  • @ethang5

    From all the historical artefacts we have, it is demonstrably factual that the Sumerian story predates the biblical one...

    Do you have better evidence that would demonstrate otherwise or is an opinion all you have? 

    And it's Queen with Bowie, but that's irrelevant since I was talking about Vanilla Ice...  Typical... :smirk: 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 140 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    >From all the historical artefacts we have, it is demonstrably factual that the Sumerian story predates the biblical one... 

    And how would artifacts show that?

    >Do you have better evidence that would demonstrate otherwise or is an opinion all you have?

    Do you mean we must accept your story until I debunk it? I don't think so. You are referring to texts and artifacts. I am referring to the story itself. The Noah story predates the Sumerian one. We have found older Sumerian artifacts, but the Noah story is older.

    >And it's Queen with Bowie, but that's irrelevant since I was talking about Vanilla Ice...  Typical... smirk 

    You were talking about "Under Pressure". The tune is Bowie's. He wrote it. Vanilla sampled it.

    The Noah story also mentions some natural science facts that confirm it is not a myth, and is older than any other flood story.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @ethang5
    You were talking about "Under Pressure". The tune is Bowie's. He wrote it. Vanilla sampled it.

    It was written by Queen, Bowie worked the lyrics with Mercury and sang on it... He didn't work on the music... It is included on Queen's 1982 album Hot Space. It was credited as being co-written by the five musicians. 

    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @ethang5

    So far, you offered no shred of evidence to support your claim, just opinions... As you said, not impressed...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 140 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    So far, you offered no shred of evidence to support your claim, just opinions... As you said, not impressed...

    And I remain unimpressed. Notice this isn't my thread. The claim was made by you and the OP.

    I've seen no support yet. As is common with atheists, you will make a claim and then pretend it is established, and that the theist has the burden to refute it.

    As a liberal, this may surprise you, but impression you is not something I care about.

    Now, before I dismiss your claim as unfounded, what exactly is your evidence that the story is borrowed?

    1. The stories are similar - Debunked
    Flood stories are supposed to be similar. And the differences are profound.

    2. Summarians developed written texts earlier. - Debunked
    We are talking about the narrative, not when written text was first developed.

    3. Artifacts show the myth was earlier than the Noah story - Debunked
    How would a, for example, a broken clay pot, tell us which story was older?

    Other than your irrational bias against God, is there anything you can offer?
  • ethang5ethang5 140 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    >It would be like saying Vanilla Ice song "Ice Ice Babies" was not influenced at all by Queen's Under Pressure or worst, that it predates it...

    First, it's "Ice, Ice, Baby", not babies.

    >It was written by Queen, Bowie worked the lyrics with Mercury and sang on it...

    Lol, what does " worked on the lyrics" mean slick?

    >He didn't work on the music...

    No one said he did.

    >It is included on Queen's 1982 album Hot Space. It was credited as being co-written by the five musicians.

    You did the same thing Vanilla was accused and convicted of. You failed to credit the actual creators of the work. All I did was ask you a question, "Was it Queen OR David Bowie?
  • @ethang5

    Debunked? LOL Yeah sure... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 140 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Now, before I dismiss your claim as unfounded, what exactly is your evidence that the story is borrowed?

    >Debunked? LOL Yeah sure... 

    Sorry, I do not consider that to be proper evidence.

    I'm dismissing your claim. That is what happens when you don't support your arguments.
    Plaffelvohfen
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