Do we ever deserve to be punished?

Plaffelvohfen

Are you asking if the universe is deterministic? That is what I understand from your second question... And how does the notion of punishment in the title fit in this? 

DreTheThinker

If morality is a social and cultural construct, then it can be stated that the state of "deserving" or "not deserving" to be punished is relative. 

Dee

You say ......Are you asking if the universe is deterministic?

My reply .....I’m asking what people like you and others think so maybe a dialogue can take place 

You say ......That is what I understand from your second question... And how does the notion of punishment in the title fit in this? 

My reply .....Well if the nature of the Universe is indeed deterministic each and every one of us in in the grip of rigid and inexorable laws , so are not free.......therefore why punish them for “ crimes” if everything is preordained? 

MayCaesar

I believe that modern logic cannot exist without the assumption of determinism in the Universe. If there are many possible futures for the given present, then we cannot establish the causal connection between the future and the present, and that means that causality principle cannot be applied - which breaks everything.

So, even if quantum mechanics says that the Universe is essentially a large random number generator and local hidden variables governing the product of the generator cannot be established, it is still better to assume that there are global hidden variables taking care of the generator's work. This is the only way to reconcile quantum mechanics with other branches of physics, science in general, philosophy and logic.

As for the punishment question, I will go with Milton Friedman's half-joking statement: "Nobody deserves anything". "Deserve" is a human concept which does not reflect the objective reality. In addition, punishment is pretty useless: you do not teach anyone anything by punishing them for something they have already done. Rehabilitation, on the other hand, is productive: if your goal is to discourage someone from repeating the same mistake they made in the future, then you should make them understand why this is a mistake and how to avoid it. Otherwise, if we are to punish people for things they do that they did not know were wrong at the time, then we accomplish nothing other than create the fear of uncertainty in the society, as people can never know what they will be punished for tomorrow.

Dee

@MayCaesar

If determinism applies to everything in the Universe do you believe it applies to our actions?

John_C_87

The universe is not  held by time yet. For all circumference there exists an equal diameter. For all line at center of space there exists generally only many points for radius.
Do we ever deserve to be punished? Yes, some more so than others.

MayCaesar

@Dee

Absolutely. The chemical reactions in our bodies define how we act completely, and the ability to make choices is an illusion, because every choice is already predetermined. Even the fact that I wrote this comment was already predetermined in the past.

Dee

@MayCaesar

I agree , each and every one of us is in the grip of rigid and inexorable natural laws , the illusion of free will for most is  comforting 

all4actt

Dee
Does the state of the Universe at any particular moment in time plus the laws of nature , together necessitate what will happen in the future?

The state of the universe is in constant flux. So even combined with the laws of nature in one particular moment I don't believe that it will necessarily determine the future.

As for your other question absolutely s person should be punished if that person does something in contrary to the laws of a civalized society.

The laws of nature can be punitive.

Dee

@all4actt

You say ....
The state of the universe is in constant flux. So even combined with the laws of nature in one particular moment I don't believe that it will necessarily determine the future.

My reply ....Well if our actions are not determined and they are in a state of constant flux as in we are part of the Universe that’s in constant flux how then are we responsible for our actions? 

all4actt

@Dee

Just because the universe is in constant flux does not stop natural consequences from occurring.  Nor does it negate personal responsibility for ones actions.

I just don"t see any proof that our actions are predetermined.  I think by claiming that your actions are predetermined is a phylosophy to allows are person to say "it's not my fault it's the universes" or "i was prdetermined to do it".  

It would be nice if I could blame all my bad choices in life on pre-determination but I can't and i could not except that excuse from anyone else.

Dee

@all4actt

You say ......

Just because the universe is in constant flux does not stop natural consequences from occurring.

My reply .....If the Universe is in constant flux so are we how can we be responsible for something we have no control over ?

You say ..... Nor does it negate personal responsibility for ones actions.

My reply ....Why not if we have no control over them?

You say .......I just don"t see any proof that our actions are predetermined. 

My reply .....Did you pick your parents? Your environment? Your genetics? How can you be in any way responsible for how you are if you had no choice in the matter?

You say .....I think by claiming that your actions are predetermined is a phylosophy to allows are person to say "it's not my fault it's the universes" or "i was prdetermined to do it".  

My reply .....What’s wring with stating a truth? The Universe is governed by the laws of nature we fall under those laws  

You say .....It would be nice if I could blame all my bad choices in life on pre-determination but I can't and i could not except that excuse from anyone else.

My reply ....That’s your choice you believe you have free will while I believe such a thing is illusory 

ZeusAres42

I think the idea of punishment rests on subjectivity.  If a person commits a crime against you or a crime against someone else that you personally feel is outrageous then it is a logical progression that you may well want them to be punished in some form or another. 

Subjectively speaking I too can think of examples where I personally think a person should be punished. The reason being is that in a number of cases they still had a choice as to whether or not commit that crime. I believe that free will does exist but only in a limited extent. So, a person may not be able to choose the preceding events that lead up to them making a choice but the fact is they had the option of making a choice and they chose to commit a crime. Therefore, they should be held accountable for their actions.

Objectively speaking, I think most of us can agree that the vast majority of us all desire to be happy, safe and protected. There is an old saying that goes back thousands of years even before certain religions adopted it which I think is something that can resonate with at least most of us - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  So if a person commits a crime actions to need to be implemented to ensure that this doesn't happen again so as to maintain the well-being, protection, and safety of others.

Dee

@ZeusAres42

My question had a bit tagged on underneath the heading regarding what I’m getting at ........

If the nature of the Universe is  deterministic each and every one of us in in the grip of rigid and inexorable laws , so are not free.......therefore why punish them for “ crimes” if everything is preordained? 

ZeusAres42

@Dee

My question had a bit tagged on underneath the heading regarding what I’m getting at ........

If the nature of the Universe is  deterministic each and every one of us in in the grip of rigid and inexorable laws , so are not free.......therefore why punish them for “ crimes” if everything is preordained?

I understand that. The point I am trying to make is that even if our universe is deterministic that still doesn't change the fact that we humans have the freedom of choice to be able to make decisions albeit that freedom of choice would have also been predetermined if that make sense?  The will may not be exactly free but the man is.

With that being said, I also generally ascribe to the idea that the universe is deterministically indeterministic.

antant42

Do you feel that you have no control over your decisions? This may seem odd.. Is it not obvious that you have been making choices your whole life? 

Also, predestination does it necessarily mean no free will. 

I think punishment is arbitrary without moral constants(good and Bad) There is no moral constants without God.  

Dee

@ZeusAres42

You say .....I understand that. The point I am trying to make is that even if our universe is deterministic that still doesn't change the fact that we humans have the freedom of choice to be able to make decisions albeit that freedom of choice would have also been predetermined if that make sense

My reply .....If each and every one of us is in the grip of inexorable natural laws that includes the particles out of which we are made how can they and we do anything other than what they in fact do?

 You say ..... The will may not be exactly free but the man is. 

My reply ....If the will is not free then you agree we have no free will , what do you mean “the man is”?

You say .....With that being said, I also generally ascribe to the idea that the universe is deterministically indeterministic. 

My reply .....I find that hard to unpack can you explain exactly what it means?

Dee

@antant42

You say .....Do you feel that you have no control over your decisions?

My reply ....I feel I’d but I think it’s illusory 

You say .....This may seem odd.. Is it not obvious that you have been making choices your whole life? 

My reply .....We make choices but it seems they are predetermined 

You say .....Also, predestination does it necessarily mean no free will. 

My reply .....I don’t believe in god 

You say ......I think punishment is arbitrary without moral constants(good and Bad) There is no moral constants without God.  

My reply .....We have the law of the land which is used to dish out punishment.Which  god makes moral constants?

all4actt

@Dee

I agee with you that we start out not in control of our lives or living situations.  As we grow and mature, barring any mental health is a issues not allowing for reasonable thought, inevitably  the choices we make are what determines how our life turns out.

I do believe that you are born with certain personality traits that even with the most ideal molding won't change those traits.  So in a way you could say they are predetermined.

It still does not change the fact that each person makes decisions in their lives that determines whether or not they break laws that requires punishment.   

If Natural law is really what you want to discus it would help to know which theory of Natural Law you prescibe to.

Also would help to know which theory of determination you prescrbe to.

There is not one univeral therory on either.  Many of both prescribe to the thought of God or a supreme diety controlling the outcomes.  You have already stated you don't believe in God, so which of the therories are you committed to?

YeshuaBought

I deserve to be punished, because I'm a sinner, and have grieved God with my sin, but Jesus paid for my sins on the cross, and I have Him, as my God, Lord, and Savior. I owe it all to Jesus, whether I'm feeling good, or bad.

CYDdharta

@Dee

I don't understand the line of reasoning.  If everything is predetermined, then whether or not you're punished or whether or not you punish someone is already predetermined.  There's no choice to be made. You seem to be simultaneously taking both the position that everything is predetermined and that we control our actions.

Dee

@CYDdharta

You say .......

I don't understand the line of reasoning.  If everything is predetermined, then whether or not you're punished or whether or not you punish someone is already predetermined

My reply ....Yes 

You say ......There's no choice to be made. You seem to be simultaneously taking both the position that everything is predetermined and that we control our actions.

My reply .....Choice about what ? Where did I say we control our actions?  I’m asking if free will is illusory why is anyone punished for that they had no control over? 

CYDdharta

Dee said:

 
You say ......There's no choice to be made. You seem to be simultaneously taking both the position that everything is predetermined and that we control our actions.

My reply .....Choice about what ? Where did I say we control our actions?  I’m asking if free will is illusory why is anyone punished for that they had no control over? 

You suggest there's a choice to be made on whether or not to mete out punishment;

Dee said:

If the nature of the Universe is  deterministic each and every one of us in in the grip of rigid and inexorable laws , so are not free.......therefore why punish them for “ crimes” if everything is preordained?

Dee

@CYDdharta

You say .....You suggest there's a choice to be made on whether or not to mete out punishment

My reply .....I’m asking the why as in why do they deserve to be punished , how do I know the thoughts of others even if they are predetermined thus the why if indeed it’s decided to punish? 

CYDdharta

Dee said:

@CYDdharta

You say .....You suggest there's a choice to be made on whether or not to mete out punishment

My reply .....I’m asking the why as in why do they deserve to be punished , how do I know the thoughts of others even if they are predetermined thus the why if indeed it’s decided to punish? 

If everything is predetermined, then there is no decision to be made, about anything.  The script is already written.  You will punish someone or not punish them, be punished or not be punished, according to the script.

Dee

@CYDdharta

You say .....

If everything is predetermined, then there is no decision to be made, about anything. 

My reply ......But I do not still know the minds of other even if their decisions are predetermined 

You say .......The script is already written.  You will punish someone or not punish them, be punished or not be punished, according to the script.

My reply ....Yes correct, but is punishment warranted and why? 

CYDdharta

Dee said:

@CYDdharta

You say .....

If everything is predetermined, then there is no decision to be made, about anything. 

My reply ......But I do not still know the minds of other even if their decisions are predetermined

It doesn't matter because your actions are already predetermined

You say .......The script is already written.  You will punish someone or not punish them, be punished or not be punished, according to the script.

My reply ....Yes correct, but is punishment warranted and why?

If everything is predetermined, there is no punishment, there is only the script.

Dee

@CYDdharta

You say .....If everything is predetermined, there is no punishment, there is only the script.

My reply....Right .....doing 20 years in jail is not punishment as it’s only the script ....oh dear 

jesusisGod777

Jesus sentences people to eternal damnation.

A person's crimes dictate their punishment. To suggest or insuate a person's actions should not be held accountable is defined as a state of lawlesness and immorality.

This type of argument surveys morality.

People define ethics as a standard for moral behaviour.

Standards are themselves derived from the aspect of conscience.

Everyone has the same sense of right and wrong however, how a person's conscience is effected by individual choices is different.

This is not generally understood.

The lieng left ( lacking morality they lie) suggest morality is a construct except, internal motivation determines a respect for moral decision making.

Everyone feels as if a decision is either right or wrong, sub-consciouslly.

The word of God the Bible makes it clear you can sear your conscience.

Most people's conscience is seared. I have no idea how people can play video games dismembering a person and not think they are insane for feeling nothing.thats psychotic behaviour that falls under and is classified UNDER the DSM-IV as psychotic derangement and decencitized behaviours.

This demonstrates an imperative.

1.The human conscience dictates the awareness of right and wrong
as a faculty of reasoning and rationalizing behaviour as right or wrong.

2. The mind is effected by the conscience when confronted with a moral considerations

Think of it this way. In the most simple terms. If morality were an idea who could understand it, if it does not effect the mind or emotions of a person who isn't intrinsically aware of right and wrong.

You can get into an argument about nature vs nurture, which is an absurd argument.

Psychologically, people are effected by behaviour so there has to be something that innately effects how someone feels about behaviour or a cause for their feelings , thoughts, etc.

Since the sense of right and wrong has an emotional cause, it can not be based solely on reason.

To suggest morality is a construct and suggest nurture, is an absurd fallacy.

Someone can not be nurtered to have a particular sense of behaviour if they lack a sense of behaviour in the foremost sense of lacking any conscienable understanding of morality.

Human beings are naturally rational, and rationalize right and wrong based on a mind that has the capacity for understanding right and wrong. So many people commonly agree about moral issues because a moral sense of right and wrong is natural however, people controversially agree because they are evil and therefore deserve punishment for violating their conscience and what is moral.

Jesus the God of creation gave everyone a conscience. Your conscious mind is aware of right and wrong, it's why your asking the question.

Jesus is God and Lord.

SESMeT

We never deserve to be punished because there is no free will.

Punishment can be justified pragmatically: it can be useful to hold each other responsible ... but where it is not useful it makes no sense. Because nobody actually deserves it.

SESMeT

Dee said:

Does the state of the Universe at any particular moment in time plus the laws of nature , together necessitate what will happen in the future?

Yes.

SESMeT

Dee said:

Does the state of the Universe at any particular moment in time plus the laws of nature , together necessitate what will happen in the future?

Yes because determinism is true: there is only one physically possible future.

SESMeT

CYDdharta said:

Dee said:

@CYDdharta

You say .....You suggest there's a choice to be made on whether or not to mete out punishment

My reply .....I’m asking the why as in why do they deserve to be punished , how do I know the thoughts of others even if they are predetermined thus the why if indeed it’s decided to punish? 

If everything is predetermined, then there is no decision to be made, about anything.  The script is already written.  You will punish someone or not punish them, be punished or not be punished, according to the script.

The future is predetermined but we don't know that this predetermined future actually *is*. When we have false beliefs that fail to recognize that punishment makes no sense then we act on those false beliefs and they reflect the future accordingly. When we have true beliefs that do recognize that punishment makes no sense then we act on those beliefs and they reflect the future accordingly.

Our beliefs are *part* of the causal stream of the unknown future. You're excluding it. Fatalism and determinism are different things ... and you're reacting to determinism as if it's fatalism: it isn't. The future is predetermined, yes, but it *isn't* predetermined *in spite of what we believe*. What we believe *is part of* what determines the future and, regardless of the fact that we have no choice over what we believe, it is still the case that we are deluded if we think it *isn't* part of what determines the future. X may be predetermined to happen but it's not predetermined to happen "no matter what." In other words, it's not predetermined to happen *in spite* of the previous events ... it's predetermined to happen *because of* the previous events.

If one is just a character with a certain destiny within a prewritten story ... that doesn't mean that one will reach one's destiny, at the final page of the story, *without* all the necessary actions that one does on the previous pages.

The future is predetermined but unknown. Unknown and there to be discovered. Don't you want to discover whether you're the sort of person to lose false beliefs rather than keep them? Persuasion is real whether it's voluntary or involuntary.

SESMeT

The future isn't predetermined to happen *regardless* of what we believe. So our beliefs matter. 

If X is an event in the future then X is not predetermined to happen "no matter what" *in spite* of previous events, and regardless of what we do, X is, instead, *because of* previous events, including what we do. 

It's just that what we do is also predetermined by previous events, prior to actions, which we have zero control over. So we ultimately have zero control over our actions ... but this isn't fatalism. With fatalism our actions would be treated as if they weren't even part of the causal stream of the universe ... that X would happen *in spite* of what we do. But our actions *are* part of the causal stream of the universe. And it's *because* of what we do ... it's just that what we do is because of prior stuff that we have zero control over. There is a difference: for example ... imagine that I am holding a ball now ibut in the future I am determined to drop it. It's not as if I will drop it even if I don't let go. It's just that I will have no choice in my letting go, at some point, because it's already prewritten. The ball won't be dropped by itself. My actions matter and have meaning. So do my beliefs. There's just no control over my actions or beliefs.

ZeusAres42

Dee said:

@ZeusAres42

You say .....I understand that. The point I am trying to make is that even if our universe is deterministic that still doesn't change the fact that we humans have the freedom of choice to be able to make decisions albeit that freedom of choice would have also been predetermined if that make sense

My reply .....If each and every one of us is in the grip of inexorable natural laws that includes the particles out of which we are made how can they and we do anything other than what they in fact do?

 You say ..... The will may not be exactly free but the man is. 

My reply ....If the will is not free then you agree we have no free will , what do you mean “the man is”?

You say .....With that being said, I also generally ascribe to the idea that the universe is deterministically indeterministic. 

My reply .....I find that hard to unpack can you explain exactly what it means?

Because the freedom of choice we have to be able to choose our actions is a byproduct of those natural laws. 

The will cannot be free because it is an act of determination.  However, the man is free to able to make choices but only within the limits of natural laws. It was actually some logician or philosopher that said this and I thought it was such a great saying as it made logical sense, well, at least to me anyway haha.

As for the universe being deterministically indeterministic, that is a very deep subject and my best advice would be to read some Stephen Hawking's stuff. He didn't actually say that as far as I know but that is one of the inferences I made based on one or things he said.

CYDdharta

SESMeT said:

The future is predetermined but we don't know that this predetermined future actually *is*. When we have false beliefs that fail to recognize that punishment makes no sense then we act on those false beliefs and they reflect the future accordingly. When we have true beliefs that do recognize that punishment makes no sense then we act on those beliefs and they reflect the future accordingly.

Our beliefs are *part* of the causal stream of the unknown future. You're excluding it. Fatalism and determinism are different things ... and you're reacting to determinism as if it's fatalism: it isn't. The future is predetermined, yes, but it *isn't* predetermined *in spite of what we believe*. What we believe *is part of* what determines the future and, regardless of the fact that we have no choice over what we believe, it is still the case that we are deluded if we think it *isn't* part of what determines the future. X may be predetermined to happen but it's not predetermined to happen "no matter what." In other words, it's not predetermined to happen *in spite* of the previous events ... it's predetermined to happen *because of* the previous events.

If one is just a character with a certain destiny within a prewritten story ... that doesn't mean that one will reach one's destiny, at the final page of the story, *without* all the necessary actions that one does on the previous pages.

The future is predetermined but unknown. Unknown and there to be discovered. Don't you want to discover whether you're the sort of person to lose false beliefs rather than keep them? Persuasion is real whether it's voluntary or involuntary.

So the script is written, but it includes the illusion of free will. If everything is predetermined, than there is no free will, merely the delusion of free will, and there is no punishment. 

SESMeT

There's no punishment that can be justified because people deserve it ... but there's still punishment that can be justified pragmatically.

CYDdharta

SESMeT said:

There's no punishment that can be justified because people deserve it ... but there's still punishment that can be justified pragmatically.

There is no punishment.  Like free will, there is only the illusion of punishment.

SESMeT

@CYDdharta

That doesn't follow from the fact that there's no free will. 

People clearly punish each other. The point is that people can't deserve to be punished without free will.

CYDdharta

SESMeT said:

@CYDdharta

That doesn't follow from the fact that there's no free will. 

People clearly punish each other. The point is that people can't deserve to be punished without free will.

How can there be punishment if there's no free will?  If being caught selling 10 lbs of heroin is in your destiny, then spending 20 years in a federal penn is also in your destiny.  If you have no free will, it's not your fault you were selling heroin and got caught, but the judge and jury also had no free will in your sentencing.  Everything was preordained.  There is no punishment, it's just an illusion.