There's no such thing as atheism

Neopesdom

   The, so called, atheist's claim that they "lack a belief in God(gods)" only serves to rightly describe their own missing mental faculties on the subject. When we examine things more closely we can see through this smoke screen, as they are trying to hide from the fact that they have no answers to anything and are desperately trying to deflect things away from themselves, it is obvious that it is too difficult for them to support their claims with anything rational. If they weren't intellectually dishonest they would admit that they believe God does not exist and try to support that claim, rather than taking the trolling cowards approach and invoke every logical fallacy imaginable. The exegetic yoga that "atheists" resort to in order to avoid their intellectual responsibilities is painfully evident. They are caught up in a pseudo-intellectual craze where they think they have trolled their way into an opportunity that will allow them to demand a lot of work from everyone else while avoiding it for themselves. If they are not just trolling the debate, I would ask “How does your lack of belief tell you that I’m wrong?”

 

   But as such, atheism is a truth claim about the world; and that claim is: God does not exist. Atheism as such cannot exist as a genuine intellectual stance since in the real world as it would require absolute knowledge, thus the claim of atheism can only be made by a delusional mind, of which the Bible rightly describes such individuals as fools. 

Dee

It's ironic that even though they don't realize it, the reason Christians take Allahs  name in vain, is because they sub-conciously believe.

Dee

@Neopesdom

You say .....The Bible rightly describes such individuals as fools. 

My reply .....Only an would use the Bible to justify his position it’s a book of cow manure ......

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

You take that book of gibberish as your life guide ......oh dear 

ZeusAres42

@Dee

I am not going to lie. There are benefits to Christianity like there with other religions. However, the above individuals sure know how to put people off it. 

I understand your anger With the above individuals because it is offensive to both atheists and other religions. What's more though is that they also insult the dedicated theists that have invested years in their Christianity study and faith. It really is outrageous that the above individuals would have the unmitigated gal to preach what they're preaching in the way that they are.

Dee

@ZeusAres42

You say ...... There are benefits to Christianity like there with other religions

My reply .....I agree most my family are Christian , the worst example I’ve seen regards so called Christians are unfortunately mostly American and extremely hostile and aggressive , this has unfortunately been my experience on more than one debate site. Why they’re like this demonstrates to me how unsure most are about the claims they make 

SESMeT

So, OP, wheres the actual argument that everybody believes in God? How could you know that? Wouldn't you have to be God yourself—or like Professor Xavier from X-Men with Cerebro, or something—in order for you to see into the minds of everybody in the whole world so you could actually know that everybody believed in God? This is an unfalsifiable claim if I ever saw one ... and thereby dismissible on its face with Hitchen's razor. But MORE than that: It's not only unsubstantiated; it's unsubstantiatable.

SESMeT

So, OP, isn't your claim unsubstantiatable? The only way to substantiate it would be by being God yourself or by being able to see into the minds of everybody in the  world to know what they believed (like Professor Xavier from X-Men with his Cerebro). And you don't have that power.

AlofRI

Hmmm, I came here thinking I was me, and find out that I don't exist. Depressing!  I've been non-existent for about 60 of my 80+ years … since I found out I couldn't believe what I was told. JESUS! What a waste of time! If I had it to do over again I'd ….???? Well, likely be just as much of a failure. Some of us never learn, I guess ;-)

THEDENIER

@Neopesdom

You're argument is unsubstantiated,  false, and lacks logical grounding. You essentially believe that atheists are atheist because they just aren't mentally capable of comprehending a god exists. Furthermore you state that they "have no answers" and that if you ever met a serious atheist you would ask "How does your lack of belief tell you that I’m wrong?”. Now to finally seal the deal, you said that if they weren't all pseudo-intellectual cowards they would "admit that they believe God does not exist and try to support that claim." 

First of all, I am pretty sure most atheists admit freely that they believe god does not exist. You previously called professing a lack of belief in god to only betray the intellectual weakness of atheists, yet you instead suggest they admit they don't think god exists? These are the same thing.

Now onto the meat of your argument. Atheists may not have answers to all questions, but the difference between a theist and an atheist is this: when an atheist is unable to provide an answer, he or she tries to find it, and until it is found, will freely admit that the answer is unknown. On the other hand, the basic argument you seem to be making is that the better path would just be to make up an answer. You're right, atheists don't have all the answers, but at least they don't make them up as they go.

Finally you ask "How does your lack of belief tell you that I’m wrong?” First of all to answer the question you asked: My lack of belief tells me you're wrong because I disagree with you and I think I'm right. That's how most disagreements work.
I think the question you meant to ask is this: "How can prove that god doesn't exist and that I am wrong?” Now this is fallacious reasoning. I don't need to prove god exists. You do. God may exists. But there is no more evidence for his presence than for the presence of an all powerful spaghetti monster. 

With the level of intellectual vigor you apply to your beleifs, I hope you are prepared to pray to the FSM.

ZeusAres42

Dee said:

@ZeusAres42

You say ...... There are benefits to Christianity like there with other religions

My reply .....I agree most my family are Christian , the worst example I’ve seen regards so called Christians are unfortunately mostly American and extremely hostile and aggressive , this has unfortunately been my experience on more than one debate site. Why they’re like this demonstrates to me how unsure most are about the claims they make 

Interesting you should mention that. I also found out recently too that there is about 85% of Christians in the US. However, out of that number only about 35% or less have actually studied the bible. And, no going to church on Sunday or reading a few passages in the bible every now and then doesn't count.  

It really is an insult to actual authentic religious people that take their faith and theology that go about aggressively preaching what they know so little about. They're not interested in defending religion or care for humanity; they just want to look good!

SESMeT

So, OP, wheres the actual argument that everybody believes in God? How could you know that? Wouldn't you have to be God yourself—or like Professor Xavier from X-Men with Cerebro, or something—in order for you to see into the minds of everybody in the whole world so you could actually know that everybody believed in God? This is an unfalsifiable claim if I ever saw one ... and thereby dismissible on its face with Hitchen's razor. But MORE than that: It's not only unsubstantiated; it's unsubstantiatable.

ZeusAres42

Dee said:

@ZeusAres42

You say ...... There are benefits to Christianity like there with other religions

My reply .....I agree most my family are Christian , the worst example I’ve seen regards so called Christians are unfortunately mostly American and extremely hostile and aggressive , this has unfortunately been my experience on more than one debate site. Why they’re like this demonstrates to me how unsure most are about the claims they make 

Interesting you should mention that. I also found out recently too that there is about 85% of Christians in the US. However, out of that number only about 35% or less have actually studied the bible. And, no going to church on Sunday or reading a few passages in the bible every now and then doesn't count.  

Neopesdom

@THEDENIER

>>You essentially believe that atheists are atheist because they just aren't mentally capable of comprehending a god exists.

There is no such thing as an atheist. If one claims that there is no god they are basically saying that they have absolute knowledge, I would call it "The Atheist Delusion". A less disingenuous position would be that of agnostic. Similarly if someone says that God exists they are being equally disingenuous, the more honest response would be that they hope God exists, that they have faith because all evidence points in that direction.

>>Atheists may not have answers to all questions, but the difference between a theist and an atheist is this: when an atheist is unable to provide an answer, he or she tries to find it, and until it is found, will freely admit that the answer is unknown.

Often "atheists" will purport false claims in an attempt to prop up their opinion. i.e., Piltdown man, Lucy, Nebraska man, Java Man, Haeckel’s drawings, Archaeoraptor/Archeopteryx, the peppered moth, Darwinian evolution (https://dissentfromdarwin.org/), etc.

The problem that any rational thinker needs to tackle, though, is that the science increasingly shows that atheists are no more rational than theists. Indeed, atheists are just as susceptible as the next person to “group-think” and other non-rational forms of cognition. http://theconversation.com/why-atheists-are-not-as-rational-as-some-like-to-think-103563

>> I don't need to prove god exists. You do. God may exists. But there is no more evidence for his presence than for the presence of an all powerful spaghetti monster. 

What makes you think that I have to prove God exists, when I don't claim "proof"? In fact there is no such thing as "proof" when it comes to God's existence, it's only a matter of faith. There is no indication that God does not exist, this is why "atheists" have to try and hand the ball back to the theist, because there is no such evidence. Also why you have to use terms like "spaghetti monster", lack of evidence has apparently devolved into desperate mockery.

Science owes much to theistic thinkers, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology

"Every scientist becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men.", "This firm belief in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God."- Albert Einstein

Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things, and knows all that is or can be done. This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. - Isaac Newton

It seems to me absurd to doubt that a man may be an ardent theist and an evolutionist. You are right about [Charles] Kingsley. Asa Gray, the eminent [American] botanist, is another case in point.... In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. - Charles Darwin

Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule.… A superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology... The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question. - Fred Hoyle

Kepler breaks into enthusiasm at being the first to recognise the beauty of God's works. Thus the new way of thinking [science] has nothing to do with any turn away from religion. - Wilber, Quantum Questions, p.41

In Six Days answers this provocative question with 50 informative essays by scientists who say “Yes!” Taking a factual and scientific look at the evidence for evolution, physicists, biologists, and chemists conclude that evolution may offer no more evidence than traditional religion, and factually, it may lag behind. - Read for free - https://answersingenesis.org/answers/books/in-six-days/

MayCaesar

I could just as well say that you take God's non-existence in vain, because you subconsciously disbelieve.

Both arguments have zero logical foundation and are just wordplays.

GeoLibCogScientist

I'm sorry, I can't be considerate here, so Debra AI is probably going to rank this comment low in that category.

I'm starting to believe you're parodying extreme Christian views and are a "Poe", as in someone who puts Poe's law to a test by arguing parodied arguments.

I just don't understand how anyone could possibly argue this in the manner you did. It would be different if you showed FMRI studies indicating some sort of reaction in the brain of atheists when we say "Oh my god!", but to just assume that while presenting no evidence whatsoever is very fallacious.

While you may not be wrong, you performed terribly here to argue your position, which I've seen a pattern of this from you as a user where you seem to just constantly make assumptions. 

Dee

@ZeusAres42

I agree a lot on here are just chest beating egotists and extremely aggressive also they support the notion Jesus would have agreed with carrying a gun , denying universal health care , social welfare and housing the homeless .... They’ve reinvented Jesus in their own image pretty hilarious really  

Dee

@Neopesdom

You quote Einstein in an appeal to authority .......

"Every scientist becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men.", "This firm belief in a superior mind that reveals itself in the world of experience, represents my conception of God."- Albert Einstein

Why not quote actually quote what he said regarding the biblical god and the Bible?

Read up on Einstein and Spinoza regarding his use of the word “god”

“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.

“No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this,” he wrote in the letter written on January 3, 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, cited by The Guardian newspaper.

Albert Einstein 

I also see that you’re still using the appalling answers in genesis site as your go to site for “ Illumination” this demonstrates the lengths religious nuts will go to in an effort to support their nonsense 

AlofRI

@ZeusAres42>; You mentioned 85% of U.S. is Christian and 35% have studied the Bible.
 As with much information today, there are variants on the subject. Mine says that out of 310M people, 159M "call themselves" Christian. Only 36% of those attend church regularly and 9% of the total say religion is a most important factor in their lives. That sounds to me like a large percentage of either yours or my percentages are CYA "Christians". Someone said recently that sitting in church every Sunday doesn't make you a Christian, any more than sitting in the garage every Sunday makes you a car. 

I agree with what you said, and what Samuel Clemens said about the Bible: "It is full of interest, it has noble poetry in it and some clever fables, some blood drenched history and some good morals, a wealth of obscenity and upwards of a thousand lies."

ZeusAres42

MayCaesar said:

I could just as well say that you take God's non-existence in vain, because you subconsciously disbelieve.

Both arguments have zero logical foundation and are just wordplays.

Nice job with the following by the way:

Reductio Ad Consequentia - Reducing the Argument to the Consequences

By the way, I am not accusing you of a fallacy. This is actually a similar thing to Reductio Ad Absurdum which is used to expose the fallacy within the argument as you have just done.  https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/bg/Bo/LogicalFallacies/hsxE4ATy/Reductio-Ad-Consequentia---Reducing-the-Argument-to-the-Consequences

In short, you're absolutely right; both arguments have zero logical foundation.

antant42

Question for the atheists here. You guys are atheists, meaning you believe in no order and nothing immaterial correct?

Are laws of logic absolutely necessary?

Dee

@antant42

You say ...... You guys are atheists, meaning you believe in no order and nothing immaterial correct?

Are laws of logic absolutely necessary?


My reply .....You would have to ask each individual Atheist your questions to get their opinions .Your questions make no sense regarding an Atheists position.

Atheism is merely a rejection of a claim made by believers  nothing more nothing less , the burden of proof is with the believer to provide conclusive evidence for their claim otherwise it can be dismissed.

antant42

@Dee

Your wrong because you are the one that believes non-sense not myself.

My question makes plenty of sense. In a belief system that claims everything that exists is what we can measure, see, touch, and feel, where all order we can see in the universe is simply a conglomeration of billions of years of random meaningless events is it absolutely necessary when we speak to each other to use laws of Logic.

Basically is it absolutely necessary to be orderly in my conversation, reason intelligently, and speak in a way that is understandable?

Dee

@antant42

You say .....Your  because you are the one that believes non-sense not myself.

My reply ......Saying I’m wrong is a  baseless opinion you cannot back up.

Regarding nonsense it’s you who believes Jesus walked on water , resurrected and believe a Donkey has the ability to speak according to the Bible .......

Regarding the Donkey  part I believe that is now true as every statement you make appears to emanate from one with the brains of a Donkey

antant42

@Dee

Still waiting on your answer... That is part of explaining my claim that you believe in non sense.

I clarified what Meant regarding laws of logic. Can you please answer me, “are laws of logic absolutely necessary?”

Dee

@antant42

You say .....

Still waiting on your answer... That is part of explaining my claim that you believe in non sense.

My reply .....You “explained” nothing you made a baseless assertion based on  nothing 

You say ......I clarified what Meant regarding laws of logic.

My reply .....Good for you , maybe if you make your position clear regarding what you’re trying to say that would help

 You say ......Can you please answer me, “are laws of logic absolutely necessary?”

My reply .....What has that question got to do with my correcting you on what you thought Atheism was?

Dee

@antant42

You say .....

My question makes plenty of sense. In a belief system that claims everything that exists is what we can measure, see, touch, and feel, where all order we can see in the universe is simply a conglomeration of billions of years of random meaningless events is it absolutely necessary when we speak to each other to use laws of Logic.

My reply ......Who’s belief system is this? What is the name of this belief system?

You say ......Basically is it absolutely necessary to be orderly in my conversation, reason intelligently, and speak in a way that is understandable?

My reply .....Maybe you should start doing it so. So far you made a baseless statement about what I believe is nonsense without me telling you what I believe, you then make assertions based on what you think I think and supply questions to your own assertions .....Try and type something reasonable and I will respond 

Ampersand

There seem to be two arguments here.

"Atheists secretly believe in God" can be rejected as mere wishful thinking.

"Atheists can't logically 100% reject the possibility of God" fails by being such a tenuous and irrelevant argument that reduces religions to the same level as a pot smokers idea that we're all actually the dream of a Giant turtle - which like a god can't technically 100% be disproven. I'd also note that if not being able to 100% logically prove a god doesn't exist means you believe in him, this means Christians believe in Vishnu, Odin, etc too.

antant42

@Dee
In my first post I asked it as a question. It is a coming atheist belief. The belief in evolution and materialism. Essentially the belief that we evolved from apes, and further back bacteria. Random processes have created everything we know and see so there is no meaning to it all. Also, it is the belief that the cosmos is all there ever was or ever will be(like Carl Sagan says) Essentially all that exists is matter and energy.

Do you like most other atheists accept this?

antant42

@Ampersand

1st argument. This is Biblical.

• Romans 1 :19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. —
• Romans 1 :20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: —

We do not think you are actively lying to everyone and are secret Christians. When a Christian says that you really do believe in God they are appealing to this scripture and the idea that God has revealed himself through nature and you conscience so you are accountable in your disbelief. 

HOWEVER, I will concede that you don’t care about scripture.. so this is evidence you will not care for. There are other examples.  

You operate like Moral absolutes exist though atheism has no basis for them.

You operate under the assumption that nature is uniform.  Atheism has no basis for this but I doubt you run around worrying if gravity will stop working today. (This is an assumption that science makes)

Without the uniformity of nature science is impossible.

POINT 2

I am 100% certain of Gods existence according to Christianity. It is not lack of certainty that determines your hidden belief in God I agree with you last statement regarding this. 

A turtle? If you have looked into Christianity at all you know it contains a Billion times more evidence even for an atheist to believe than any creature you make up from nothing. 

Atheism is a worldview just like Christianity. You should do have to defend your faith just like I do mine?

Dee

You say .....In my first post I asked it as a question.

My reply .....I know 

You say ......It is a coming atheist belief.

My reply .....I told you what an Atheist is you totally ignored what I said 

You say ......The belief in evolution and materialism.

My reply .....Incorrect , yet again look up my definition of Atheist it’s a response yo one question and one question only 

You say ,......Essentially the belief that we evolved from apes, and further back bacteria. Random processes have created everything we know and see so there is no meaning to it all. Also, it is the belief that the cosmos is all there ever was or ever will be(like Carl Sagan says) Essentially all that exists is matter and energy.

My reply ......You’re telling me this why?

You say .....Do you like most other atheists accept this?

My reply .....What does what I believe have to do with my rejection of a believers claim regarding a god , you cannot even supply your best proof and the burden of proof is still with you as you’re making the affirmative claim 

antant42

The very reason that an atheist would take part in a debate is proof that he demands logic and order. 

This is because God demands logic and order and you are made in His image.

Any atheist, (I speak in general because you will not admit to believing anything for some odd reason) would have no reason to demand consistency in logic and reason because no God equals no purpose and no purpose equals no expectation of order.



@Dee

Dee

@antant

You say .......The very reason that an atheist would take part in a debate is proof that he demands logic and order. 

My reply .....The very reason I got involved in this debate was to address the ridiculous topic posted by the O P 

You say ...This is because God demands logic and order and you are made in His image.

My reply .....Which god demands this one of them or all of them?  Where  is your proof for them all?

You say .......Any atheist, (I speak in general because you will not admit to believing anything for some odd reason) 

My reply .....I believe a variety of things , why do you keep telling me what you think I believe?

You say ......would have no reason to demand consistency in logic and reason 

because no God equals no purpose and no purpose equals no expectation of order.

My reply .....That pile nonsense of makes no sense @antant42

Ampersand

@antant42

"Atheists secretly believe in God" 

You concede that biblical scripture is circular reasoning and so not valid (not in those words but that's basically what you do).

You then raise to examples which you say are valid:

1) "You operate like Moral absolutes exist though atheism has no basis for them."

False. I believe my morality is subjective and decided based on my thoughts and beliefs rather than some objective natural law that could never exist. That doesn't stop me from believing something is a moral absolute (e.g. something that is always right or wrong), that other people should follow it, that people are immoral for breaching it, etc such as my belief that torture is unacceptable under all circumstances; I just recognise that torture always being wrong (a subjective belief) is a personal subjective belief and has no objective or natural grounding. Atheism is not incompatible with moral absolutes, it's incomparable with the idea that these moral absolutes are objective as that presupposes an outside agency which sets them rather than being secular ideas.

2) "You operate under the assumption that nature is uniform.  Atheism has no basis for this but I doubt you run around worrying if gravity will stop working today. (This is an assumption that science makes). Without the uniformity of nature science is impossible."

Weird claim that seemingly has no basis or rationale. Nothing there for me to really rebut unless it's fleshed out and explained.

"Atheists can't logically 100% reject the possibility of God"

You claim "I am 100% certain of Gods existence according to Christianity" but that's not the topic under discussion because atheists can likewise be 100% certain god doesn't exist. The argument is about whether god's existence or non existence can be 100% logically accepted or rejected. The key distinction is that people aren't completely logical and believe all kinds of wacky things (a child could be 100% certain Santa Claus exists because they saw them at the mall), so saying you're certain of something isn't relevant. The question is: Can you prove it with 100% certainty? The answer of course is no.

Not only that but by the same metric people claim atheists can't 100% disprove Jehovah, you can't completely logically disprove that Odin exists or Shiva or Vishnu or any other god exists.

It isn't about defending a worldview of being certain of it - it's the illogical nature of the pro-Christian argument that's been presented. Technically it's pretty much impossible to disprove anything with absolute certainty; from us actually being a giant turtle having a dream to lizard people colonising the centre of the earth to anything else. To me anyone who makes that kind of argument is self-defeating as they're rendering their beliefs into a mockery.