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Is God unfair?
in Religion

By YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 420 Pts
I say yes. I have my reasons that are private between me and Him. Mental illness is one example of how unfair God is. I feel like I am the only Christian with the fortatude to challenge God on how unfair He is. 
veeraDr_Maybeqwerrty



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  • TKDBTKDB 266 Pts
    @YeshuaRedeemed

    "Mental illness is one example of how unfair God is."

    No, God isn't unfair.

    From some, of the conversations that I have experienced, in regards to mental illness, some of the mentally ill, have refused help, in various forms, being that they prefer to be homeless?

    Which I thought was sad, but if someone with mental illness, refuses help via their own choices, what can you do? 

    Some of those with a mental illness, have to be willing to accept the help.

    Like medication, shelter, help from family, or help from a counselor.





    veeraYeshuaBoughtDr_Maybe
  • One certain thing about God is that he/she does exist as a concept, and that concept can be defined however one wishes. 
    PlaffelvohfenveeraDr_MaybeBrainSocks

    The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.

  • SESMeTSESMeT 22 Pts
    No. But only because he doesn't exist.
    ZeusAres42veeraDr_MaybeqwerrtyBrainSocks
  • SESMeTSESMeT 22 Pts
    @ZeusAres42 God is not a concept. The concept of God is a concept. A cup of coffee is not a concept. The concept of a cup of coffee is a concept.
  • SESMeT said:
    @ZeusAres42 God is not a concept. The concept of God is a concept. 
    If you read my post again but a bit more closely you may  notice what I actually said.
    Dr_Maybe

    The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 1872 Pts
    What is "fairness"? Does it imply equal outcome regardless of the prior conditions? Does it imply equal prior conditions regardless of the outcome? Does it imply either? Does it imply neither?
    Different people see different things as "fair" or "unfair"; there is no single definition of that.

    As I see it, only intelligent beings can act in a fair or unfair way; the nature cannot, it is just there. The nature does whatever it does based on a set of physical laws, and those laws apply to everything equally. 
    If you consider the God to be a part of nature, like just one more physical force, then talking about its fairness makes little sense.
    If, on the other hand, you consider it to be an inhabitant of nature, then it really depends on your perspective.
    Plaffelvohfenveera
  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited August 15
    Is a god fair that watches over a girl being repeatedly raped? Yet she prayed daily to him for relief from her suffering

    Josef Fritzl brutally raped his daughter for years and the unfortunate creature still prayed daily for release from her torments , Christians justify this by playing the “mystery card “ as in the utterly ridiculous “god works in mysterious ways “ or the equally inane “ what happens humans is necessary to serve a greater good in gods plan “ ....it’s utter nonsense and used by morally bankrupt Christians to excuse the uncaring attitude of the god who’s butt they lick daily.

    The amazing thing is Fritzl may  sit at the right hand side of god if he repented on his death bed and his daughter may receive further punishment from god for denying a god who never raised a finger to help her.

    This is the truly terrifying side of religious indoctrination which turns normal people into idiots who believe the most bizarre religions tripe because of brainwashing 
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42veera
  • The numerical Axiom GOD quadragene, indecim, quingenties offers choice that takes place in two directions...…or the idea to remain still, never changing. There are results in all avenue taken. Challenge away your religious choice it  is, it was, and will be still just a measure of your own choice. As Christian you challenge Jesus as your lord, not GOD as a religion. Mispronunciation or misunderstanding is not a uncommon practice of people. 




  • VaulkVaulk 639 Pts
    edited August 17
    There's never a shortage of people who will blame God for their own faults and mistakes.  If someone's raped...God let it happen.  If a child dies because of abuse or neglect, God did nothing to stop it.  

    The lazy mindset becomes: It's God's responsibility to solve all the problems that we created for ourselves.  Not fair you say?

    Pay close attention:

    John and Susan fall in love and get married, Susan gets pregnant and gives birth to a Son named Thomas.  John and Susan don't really look out for Thomas because they're not very well equipped to be parents because of how they were raised.  So Thomas is neglected and abused mentally and physically.  

    It's God's fault right?  God was supposed to step in and physically force John and Susan to be good parents right?  God should have intervened and prevented John and Susan from getting married and having children if they weren't going to be good parents right?  Anyone with a moderate amount of common sense can see that this idea is ridiculous.  People bring this type of misfortune and anguish upon themselves and others and it's not God's responsibility to unf!@# all the mistakes we make as Human beings.

    But the rest of the world will continue on seeing all the wicked things that Humans do and then blame God for not physically intervening on someone's behalf.  To be a Christian literally means to be "Christ like".  Ask yourself, "Did Jesus watch other people do horrible things to one another and then blame his Father for the actions of the people"?  "Did Jesus suffer at the hands of people and then beg his Father to rescue him from evil"?  "Did God reach down and smite the evil people that crucified and murdered his Son"?

    If the answer to those questions is "No" then what the hell makes you think that God would reach down and physically intervene to stop someone from being Raped?  What makes you think that God would prevent a Child from being neglected or abused?  

    There are good people on this Earth, I've met them.  I know they're out there.  People are perfectly capable of stopping and preventing Evil from happening.  

    Why do Evil people get away with evil things, it has nothing to do with God:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSsPfbup0ac
    ethang5Dee
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk

    Your argument is free will, but that's ignoring all the children born with diseases like spina bifida, cerebral palsy, and a myriad of other birth defects... How do you account for those? Can't those be considered "unfair"? Same goes with cataclysmic events like tsunami, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc? How does free will plays into those? 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • VaulkVaulk 639 Pts
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I don't and can't account for diseases that exist on our planet.  The only thing I can say in regards to "That's not fair" is to respond with "When has life ever been fair"?  Is there a certain time period that you're referring to when all things were fair or...more fair than they are now?  When was this fairness established and where was it centralized?  The term "Fair" is relevant.  So when someone says "That's not fair", I have to ask reasonably: Fair compared to what?

    Disease has always existed and in most cases within the world today, diseases are better controlled and prevented than they ever have been.  Additionally, Cataclysmic events like tsunamis, earthquakes and the like might not be considered fair...but what are you comparing them to?  Is there another world where these things don't exist and people are thriving at a higher rate than we are?

    If I had to take a stab at "How does free will play into these issues", I'd say that as Humans we have free will and therefor can choose to live in places on this earth that are free of these types of disasters.  Humans are plagued with a myriad of problems while on this Earth.  Earth was never promised to be our Heaven and as far as I know...there's no scripture written anywhere that says that Earth is supposed to be challenge free.  If anything the Bible warns us constantly of the very real dangers we will encounter here and simply tells us that we should do our best to overcome them.

    Simply put, there is no recipe for paradise here on Earth.  Life IS suffering, pain, disease, sickness, injury, plight, violence and in all cases: Death.  If anyone argues that it shouldn't be then I have to ask...where did you come up with that idea against all historical evidence of the contrary?  Where is it written that it's God's responsibility to cure diseases and to prevent natural disasters?  God's not a babysitter.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @Vaulk
    "When has life ever been fair"? "Life IS suffering, pain, disease, sickness, injury, plight, violence and in all cases: Death."
    Well I certainly agree with that, life never was fair and never will be, the universe is as uncaring as can be imagined... 
    "Humans are plagued with a myriad of problems while on this Earth." - "God's not a babysitter."
    But why? Aren't we his children, his creation? Isn't it the duty of a parent to protect his children? Was there an objective need for the existence of diseases and cataclysms? Could you justify, building on purpose, a house filled with deadly dangers for your kids to live in? If you cannot, why would you excuse a purportedly omnipotent god from doing so? What justifies the exception?

    And you ask, "what are you comparing them to?", well to our only possible point of reference, ourselves of course... 
    BrainSocks
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • VaulkVaulk 639 Pts
    Can't seem to get rid of this grey bar, oh well.

    Ok, so it seems we have some common ground, that's good.  

    To answer your question "Why", simply put...I don't know, I'm not God.  I think the underlying issue here is the attempt to shove our personal humanistic opinions of what should be onto a Supernatural being who doesn't see things our way.  Ask yourself this: Could you personally stand by and watch your only child and Son be crucified mercilessly until death over the course of six hours?  If the answer is no then we have but to assume one of two reasonable conclusions.  1). God is without feelings.  2). God prioritizes something else above his feelings.  I'd personally go with the latter and base it on scripture.

    @Vaulk
    Was there an objective need for the existence of diseases and cataclysms? Could you justify, building on purpose, a house filled with deadly dangers for your kids to live in? If you cannot, why would you excuse a purportedly omnipotent god from doing so? What justifies the exception?
    Allow me to try my best to answer this.  Could I justify building a house filled with deadly dangers for my kids to live it: Yes I can and I have actually.  In fact all parents have placed their children knowingly in very real and very legitimate danger.  

    Take a willy wild guess as to what the absolute number one cause of death in Children under the age of 15 is.  Guess what?  It's car accidents.  Car accidents account for more Child deaths than all the diseases in the world combined...yet every day...like clockwork we make excuses that we just can't help but put them in the highest risk category on earth for death.  But you and I know that it's avoidable.  It might not be pleasant but we honestly could make it work if we had to.  And that's just it folks...it's convenient so we put the risk right on their head and don't think twice about it.

    Ask yourself this: What on Earth are parents thinking when they place their children into steel boxes and travel with them over SEVENTY MILES PER HOUR, DODGING OTHER STEEL BOXES AND CONSTANTLY BEING PUT IN DANGER AND RISK OF DEATH, DISMEMBERMENT, 3RD DEGREE BURNS, AND PARALYSIS? 

    To which most parents explain: "Well I have to go places and I can't just leave my kids at home" .  Ask yourself if that justification truly, honestly excuses the risk we put our children in.  If it's completely and totally unacceptable for God to allow the existence of diseases on Earth because of the possibility that a Child could develop one...then how is it acceptable for us to put our Children's lives at risk when we put them in a Car every day?  Now, I have to put this in caps or some people might miss it and cherry pick the conversation: I REALIZE CAR RIDES AND DISEASES AREN'T THE SAME THING AND I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE A LEGITIMATE COMPARISON OF THE TWO.  I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy here of casting shame at God for allowing the existence of disease when we put our Children at a HIGHER, BIGGER and MORE REAL THREAT EVERY SINGLE DAY.  

    Plaffelvohfen said:
    @Vaulk
    Could you justify, building on purpose, a house filled with deadly dangers for your kids to live in? If you cannot, why would you excuse a purportedly omnipotent god from doing so? What justifies the exception?
    Here is the point: You're suggesting (Not saying but implying) that Parents can't justify putting their Children in danger.  But I have irrefutable proof that Parents DO put their kids in danger, in fact Parents put their kids in HIGHER amounts of danger than Disease does.  Since you've made it clear that Parents can't justify putting their kids in danger and therefor God cannot...then the inverse must be true...if Parents CAN put their kids in danger and justify it...then God can too.  I don't necessarily agree with your logic but it is yours as you've made clear.  


    Lastly, if you're comparing God to ourselves...then you've got a long way to go before you prove that God has treated us worse than we treat ourselves.  The truth is that I don't know how God justifies disease or if God even considers Human concepts such as "Justification" for himself...I don't know and no one knows.  What I do know is that almost every single problem that exists in our World is either caused by People or caused by the inaction of People.  Ultimately God decides what is fair and what is not fair, if it were anyone else's decision then nothing would be fair because no one would be able to agree on it.

    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited August 18
    @Vaulk

    You say .....There's never a shortage of people who will blame God for their own faults and mistakes.  


    My reply ......Yes you’re correct and they would be Christians doing the complaining which makes no sense , when I was a Christian I never blamed god  


    You say .....If someone's raped...God let it happen.  If a child dies because of abuse or neglect, God did nothing to stop it.  


    My reply .......Yes , again if you’re a Christian you can defend this position from your worldview. The baffling part though and maybe you can explain it from your understanding as a Christian I ask as an atheist and  I ask you this .....If your god is a loving god can you tell me how someone like Josef Fritzl raped his daughter in a cellar for 22 years and yet she prayed to god she claimed daily for release from her suffering and no release came , what is a gods grand plan behind letting such suffering happen?


    The remarkable thing is the daughter could end up in hell If she rejected god  for not assisting her and her father could end up in heaven if he genuinely repented on his deathbed , as a Christian how do feel about this?


    You say .....If the answer to those questions is "No" then what the hell makes you think that God would reach down and physically intervene to stop someone from being Raped?  What makes you think that God would prevent a Child from being neglected or abused?  


    My reply .....But yet you’re a Christian and I’m an atheist and I think you would agree if we walked along a road together and saw a girl being dragged down a lane and a thug about to rape her we would intervene , would you agree? 

    Does that make us morally superior to god? If not why not?


    You say .....There are good people on this Earth, I've met them.  I know they're out there.  People are perfectly capable of stopping and preventing Evil from happening.  


    My reply .....I totally agree , but how does a  child stop a drunken thug of a father raping her / him? 


    You say........Why do Evil people get away with evil things, it has nothing to do with God


    My reply.......Do you never wonder how a loving god can watch helpless men , women and children getting gassed in Nazi death camps and do nothing?


    How can you call such a god a loving god? Why is such a god worthy of worship?



    VaulkBrainSocks
  • VaulkVaulk 639 Pts
    @Dee

    I'm not finding any conclusion in your argument.  In fact I'm not seeing an argument.  It's just a long list of questions.  I'm happy to debate if you have a premise and conclusion to offer otherwise I'd recommend Yahoo Questions for Q&A.

    Thanks.
    Dee
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited August 19
    @Vaulk


    You say ....I'm not finding any conclusion in your argument.  In fact I'm not seeing an argument.  It's just a long list of questions.  I'm happy to debate if you have a premise and conclusion to offer otherwise I'd recommend Yahoo Questions for Q&A.

    Thanks. 


    My reply ......I found absolutely none in yours except ridiculous assertions. I’m not arguing with you I asked you some” tricky questions “ regards your position and you cannot answer even one because you you have no defence . Sorry the list is too long , pick one and attempt an answer you may get help from others to assist you if you wish

    Your’re only happy to debate if you get asked easy questions as you cannot answer difficult one’s  , you like making claims without addressing counters 

    Yahoo answers , hey thanks for the heads up at least I might get some so called “ Christian “ that can at least attempt to do what you cannot as in  give an answer to one of my questions , says a lot that I may get a reply from a half -wit on yahoo to questions you cannot answer  


    Maybe pray to  god  to assist  you with a half decent reply next time? 
     


    Vaulk
  • VaulkVaulk 639 Pts
    edited August 19
    @Dee

    If you're going to insult me and attempt to ridicule my response and previous argument instead of arguing against my points then I respect your right to do so.  That said, you've made no statements among your list of questions that would contradict my arguments.  Debating is not asking questions, you have to make a statement to counter a point.  In this paragraph, so far, I've made four statements, these are all addressing your previous post, my statements are designed to contradict your attempts to insult me by explaining that during the debating process, when you insult someone or their ideas instead of arguing against them, it's called an ad hominem logical fallacy and when you do that...you lose the argument by default.  

    Additionally, questions do not counter statements...ever.  If they did then a question by itself could completely negate a previous statement...and it doesn't.

    Example:
    Statement: Everything on Earth is carbon based.
    Question: How is that possible when everyone knows not everything on Earth is carbon based?

    The question has been posed but, by itself, the question does not counter the statement...it merely implies that the "Answer" to the question "Might" counter it.  In summary, questions don't counter statements...ever.  This statement that I've made serves as effective counter by way of reason and logic to the idea that your questions somehow equate "Counters" to my statements.  Proof that you said this is here: 

    Dee said:
    @Vaulk ;

    Your’re only happy to debate if you get asked easy questions as you cannot answer difficult one’s  , you like making claims without addressing counters 
    Again, questions are not counters...ever.

    Continuing on: The attitude you've portrayed in your previous post is not only disrespectful but it's overall unnecessary and uncalled for as I've done nothing to provoke you into making snide, derogatory and insulting statements about my post or the logic I used to make my argument.  If I did or said something to upset you then I sincerely apologize for hurting your feelings and I realize that, despite your disparaging remarks against me, there's no good reason to say anything hateful or nasty towards you as it wouldn't serve any purpose and is wholly disrespectful to the debating method.  If I didn't do anything to upset you then that means you're just being insulting as a general rule or principle and this still serves as justification for terminating the debate.

    The purpose of a debate is to allow people to develop new perspectives and ideas regarding topics of conversation, not to see how insulting they can be and how many different ways they can make disparaging comments about someone.  I've seen some of your previous posts and they're nothing short of the same thing you're doing here now.  

    I appreciate your attempt at the debate and again I respect your right to argue in this fashion however, I can't in all good consciousness continue this debate with you because it degrades the debating process and it's insulting.  If I wanted to debate AND be insulted I'd go to the youtube comment sections or facebook, not a debating website.  Thanks for the attempt and I'll take this small victory and wish you a good day.

    Best of luck debating in the future!
    Dee
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    @Vaulk

    You say ......If you're going to insult me and attempt to ridicule my response and previous argument instead of arguing against my points then I respect your right to do so.  That said, you've made no statements in your list of questions.  Debating is not asking questions, you have to make a statement to argue a point.  In this paragraph, so far, I've made four statements, these are all addressing your previous post, my statements are designed to contradict your attempts to insult me by explaining that during the debating process, when you insult someone, it's called an ad hominem logical fallacy and when you do that...you lose the argument by default.  


    My reply .....I will engage with anyone fairly and squarely in debate , I will give and pay back insult with insult.


    Your sneering remark about suggesting I use Yahoo answers gives you back in return what you deserve.


    I know what an ad Hominem is and you were the first to use one in our exchange , I took several of the points you made and asked you politely to address issues I had regarding these points 


    You say .......The attitude you've portrayed in your previous post is not only disrespectful but it's overall unnecessary and uncalled for as I've done nothing to provoke you into making snide, derogatory and insulting statements about my post or the logic I used to make my argument.  


    My reply ......Read above 


    You say .......If I did or said something to upset you then I sincerely apologize and I realize that, despite your disparaging remarks against me, there's no good reason to say anything hateful or nasty towards you as it wouldn't serve any purpose and is wholly disrespectful to the debating method.


    My reply ......Read above 


    You say The purpose of a debate is to allow people to develop new perspectives and ideas regarding topics of conversation, 


    My reply .....Which is why I simple addressed several of your points and asked you to address my concerns 


    You say .......not to see how insulting they can be and how many different ways they can make disparaging comments about someone.  I've seen some of your previous posts and they're nothing short of the same thing you're doing here now.  


    My reply ......It’s unfortunate that every so called Christian except one takes exceptions to being questioned and American Christians to me are extremely hostile and aggressive and like you sulk when merely asked to answer some questions , I note you do not call your fellow Christians insulting when almost daily they post up walls of vicious attacks at anyone who dares question their world-views whys that?


    Also for comparison why not look at debates on several different topics where we debate free will , morality etc , etc , with mostly non Christians and they all are done politely 


    You say .......I appreciate your attempt at the debate and again I respect your right to argue in this fashion however, I can't in all good consciousness continue this debate with you because it degrades the debating process.  


    My reply .....Yes you brought it to this level by making the original sneering remark 


    You say ......Thanks for the attempt and I'll take this small victory and wish you a good day.


    My reply .....Another smarmy insulting swipe , I wish you had of even attempted a defence of your position but your complete capitulation was anticipated you really should take your beating like a man 


    You say ......Best of luck debating in the future!


    My reply .....You also , luck hasn’t assisted you so far though 

  • you say mental illness well ,i also suffered from depression ,severe mental illness; actually i am still suffering . i also have some personal problems, private quarrels with god but to say him unfair is not fair.god can never ever be unfair to his children .He is our saviour.Trust me he has something better for you .he is gonna change your life and then YOU WILL REMEMBER ME ;) @YeshuaBought
  • I think God would be unfair if he/she doesn't make any compensation for those who suffered without doing anything wrong. If God always makes a compensation such as heaven for the sufferers, then he/she is justified to let evil exist in our world. However, if God does not have any compensation and lets evil thrive even though he/she has the power to eliminate it, then God is totally unfair. In addition, if God chooses who is going to hell and who is going to heaven according to individual's religious belief without considering individual's deed, then God is unfair.
    BrainSocks
  • @Vaulk
    Ultimately God decides what is fair and what is not fair,

    Ok, like a celestial Kim Jung Il, I see... I have absolutely no affinities with dictators...

    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • ethang5ethang5 166 Pts
    Vaulk - I'm not finding any conclusion in your argument.  In fact I'm not seeing an argument.  It's just a long list of questions.  I'm happy to debate if you have a premise and conclusion to offer otherwise I'd recommend Yahoo Questions for Q&A.

    Dee - I found absolutely none in yours except ridiculous assertions. I’m not arguing with you I asked you some” tricky questions “ regards your position and you cannot answer even one because you you have no defence.

    (Note that Vaulk's Post was not addressed to dee.)

    Vaulk - If you're going to insult me and attempt to ridicule my response and previous argument instead of arguing against my points then I respect your right to do so.

    (Note the first person to insult, dee.)

    Vaulk - That said, you've made no statements among your list of questions that would contradict my arguments.  Debating is not asking questions, you have to make a statement to counter a point.

    (Lol dee tends to think everything out of his mouth is a brilliant argument.)

    Vaulk - during the debating process, when you insult someone or their ideas instead of arguing against them, it's called an ad hominem logical fallacy and when you do that...you lose the argument by default.

    (Dee usually declares himself winner before debate by default)

    Vaulk - The attitude you've portrayed in your previous post is not only disrespectful but it's overall unnecessary and uncalled for as I've done nothing to provoke you into making snide, derogatory and insulting statements about my post or the logic I used to make my argument.  If I did or said something to upset you then I sincerely apologize for hurting your feelings and I realize that, despite your disparaging remarks against me, there's no good reason to say anything hateful or nasty towards you as it wouldn't serve any purpose and is wholly disrespectful to the debating method.

    (Dee is still going to claim you insulted him though.)

    Dee - Your sneering remark about suggesting I use Yahoo answers gives you back in return what you deserve.

    (See?)

    Vaulk - The purpose of a debate is to allow people to develop new perspectives and ideas regarding topics of conversation, not to see how insulting they can be and how many different ways they can make disparaging comments about someone.  I've seen some of your previous posts and they're nothing short of the same thing you're doing here now. 

    (A Gentle Reader validates what we all know about Dee)

    What Dee misses is that Vaulk is right. Questions do not counter arguments. Dee thinks Vaulk as upset by the questions. Why? All Vaulk says is the the questions make no argument and thus he has nothing to answer.

    Vaulk - questions do not counter statements...ever. 

    (Vaulk even gives an example...)

    Vaulk - Example
    Statement: Everything on Earth is carbon based.
    Question: How is that possible when everyone knows not everything on Earth is carbon based?

    Vaulk - The question has been posed but, by itself, the question does not counter the statement...it merely implies that the "Answer" to the question "Might" counter it.  In summary, questions don't counter statements...ever.  This statement that I've made serves as effective counter by way of reason and logic to the idea that your questions somehow equate "Counters" to my statements.

    (Dee simply ignores this cogent argument, probably because he doesn't understand it, and simply insists that his questions are counters and are "too hard" for Christians to answer.)

    I'm not as classy as Vault you loser. Try it with me. 
    DeeVaulk
  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited August 19
    @ethang5

    E T has made a new friend with Vaulk yippee .........Your kissing display I’m sure will get you a nice pat on the back and maybe a round of applause at Vaulks local church .......oh the excitement must be killing you ......... 

    Vaulk made several comments as he pushed his opinion piece on others and assumed possibly he wouldn’t be challenged I politely asked  several questions regards his comments understandably he could not even attempt to answer one and instead resorted to insult as in ......go to yahoo answers .....The first insult was his and he got pay back.

    American Christians seem to think debating does not involve questions of any sort unless it involves them doing the questioning ask one “tricky “ question and they fold like a cheap deck chair.

    Maybe you could help Vaulk answer even one of the questions I asked but going on previous efforts I doubt it , I addressed all of Vaulks points and of course the only option was for him to insult and sulk

    Try it with you Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha .....I’m sick of whipping you it’s to easy 

  • VaulkVaulk 639 Pts
    @Vaulk
    Ultimately God decides what is fair and what is not fair,

    Ok, like a celestial Kim Jung Il, I see... I have absolutely no affinities with dictators...

    So I can respect that.  Worship of God isn't for everyone, I don't think any Christian would disagree.  And the term "Worship" implies dictatorship or at least that's the closest earthly comparison I can make.

    Even if it were wrong to leave fairness up to a celestial dictator, is it right to leave it in the hands of Humans?  How could 100% of the population of the Earth find fairness?  There will always be pockets of minorities in race, religion, culture and ideology that will find the status quo as "Unfair" and because they believe it's unfair...it is unfair.  And because a system is unfair to the minority of the population...then it's unfair overall because fairness must be across the board right? 
    So I don't think leaving the decision of "What's fair" up to people is a good idea.

    I won't bible thump you or try to convince you that God is this benevolent being who's going to make everything alright for you...that's an unfortunate piece of misinformation that was spread around by the huggy, touchy, feel-good church-goers a long time ago.  The same people that tell you that if you're life is falling apart...you should just turn it over to Jesus are the people who spread exaggerated information about God.  God won't ever appear to be fair in our mind because God stands by and watches as horrors unfold on the planet that he allegedly created for us.  That said, if he did physically intervene every time something bad happened to someone undeserving then we'd have no risk, no danger, no plight in this world and therefor there'd be no challenges for us to overcome, no test of our morality and no ultimate consequences for our choices because he'd always be there to save us from falling.

    To a degree, I'll agree with you that, in the humanistic definition, God isn't fair.  He never claimed to be fair as far as I know...there's nowhere in any scripture that says "God's a fair dude" or "God makes sure that everyone's treated equally".  He's just not.  If you assume that he professes to be then it's probably because of some near-do-well who was bubbling over with ideas about how God can just take all the problems out of your life for you...it's BS.  God's alot harsher than most people give him credit for.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 500 Pts
    edited August 19
    The fairness or unfairness of God can only rest within one's own subjective sense of who God is, as well as being grounded in one's own subjective interpretation of religious scripture that either influence their belief in God or lack thereof. 

    With that being said, if we play around a little and assume the premise of God being existent as true then it logically follows that God is the ultimate authority on what is fair but only if that is an anthropomorphic God that is being assumed.

    So, since the terms fairness and authority is an attribution to human beings it can only follow then the way God can be the ultimate authority on fairness is if God is anthropomorphic.

    On the other hand, there is also the possibility that there is a non-anamorphic Deity that set everything in motion. This Deity however, cannot be classed as being fair or unfair, since both terms are only applicable to human beings.


    PlaffelvohfenVaulk

    The unexamined thought is not worth thinking.

  • @Vaulk
    Even if it were wrong to leave fairness up to a celestial dictator, is it right to leave it in the hands of Humans? 
    To me it's the same really, with fairness being subjective to begin with (it's a feeling more than anything else really), both yes and no are valid answers to the question and leaving the decision of "What's fair" up to anyone else then our own little self is not even an option... ;) 

    The OP question only makes sense for a theist though, deists wouldn't even ask the question as it would make little sense to them imo... 
    God's a lot harsher than most people give him credit for.
    If you're talking about the abrahamic god (I won't assume), anyone who actually has read the bible and thinks he is all rainbows and glitter has serious problems, I'll grant you that... ;)
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • VaulkVaulk 639 Pts
    edited August 20
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I know right!?  And yes, I'm referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Since we're leaning more on the humanistic and subjective approach to fairness, I'd say that (While he's not absolutely fair) God's more fair than Humans are.  If we go by the only historical document we have (Whether you believe it's real or not) then I'd say the big Man upstairs is probably batting well above Humanity in terms of fairness.  
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @TKDB Yes He is. Any disability is unfair, so go to Hell, with your flacid minded BS!
    Vaulk
  • @ZeusAres42 Agreed. Some disabled people celebrate their disability, whilst I abhor limitations of any kind.
  • @veera It is unfair for you to judge me, and i doubt you could sufgfer your way out of a ****ing paper bag, with your priviledge. It is unfir for God to FORCE things to happen to MY body, that I don't consent to. That is a basic form of RAPE!
  • @대왕광개토 Agreed. I am like Job, and my complaint is just.
  • @Dee No. God is not fair. He is either partially evil, or wholly incompetant. He is OBLIGATED to protect ALL people from rape.
  • Vaulk said:
    @Plaffelvohfen

    I know right!?  And yes, I'm referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Since we're leaning more on the humanistic and subjective approach to fairness, I'd say that (While he's not absolutely fair) God's more fair than Humans are.  If we go by the only historical document we have (Whether you believe it's real or not) then I'd say the big Man upstairs is probably batting well above Humanity in terms of fairness.  
    Well, I guess we'll disagree on that, God's treatment of Job, the flood, the apple, Isaac's gambit, Lot's wife, etc, are all telling about his character imo, but that's ok, under certain premises your position is as valid as mine... And the fairness of God is not of great importance to me to be honest, an interesting topic though... ;) 

    Btw, you know, when used as a whole, I think Humanity kinda looses the capacity to be even considered as having individual qualities like "fair" or "good", no? Comparing an individual (God) with a whole group (humanity) seems like a categorical error... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • VaulkVaulk 639 Pts
    Well, I guess we'll disagree on that, God's treatment of Job, the flood, the apple, Isaac's gambit, Lot's wife, etc, are all telling about his character imo, but that's ok, under certain premises your position is as valid as mine... And the fairness of God is not of great importance to me to be honest, an interesting topic though... ;) 

    Btw, you know, when used as a whole, I think Humanity kinda looses the capacity to be even considered as having individual qualities like "fair" or "good", no? Comparing an individual (God) with a whole group (humanity) seems like a categorical error... 
    I think we're on the same ground here.  I don't think Humans "Ought to" try to apply something as humanistic as fairness or equality to a supernatural being whether he's real or not.  That's kind of similar to how people point to Science as evidence against the existence of God when Science is exclusive to the Natural realm and God, as far as I can tell falls into the supernatural realm.  We might as well ask a Geologist to explain Astrophysics.
    Plaffelvohfen
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited August 20
    @YeshuaBought

    You say ..... No. God is not fair. He is either partially evil, or wholly incompetant. He is OBLIGATED to protect ALL people from rape.


    My reply ........Going on the character of god in the and through  Bible his words he is evil 

  • It doesn't matter what you say.

    First to think you deserve something insinuates your dependency being fair to who your dependant of. You're alive.

    That's fair.

    Second fairness that's evaluated based on what you think you should have is exactly why you don't get it.

    Is someone only fair when they do what you want?
    veeraVaulk


  • Jesus is Lord. What you have is what you deserve.
    veera
  • i'm sorry .but i will still advice you to trust god.@YeshuaBought
  • ethang5ethang5 166 Pts
    edited August 28
    If fairness and morality are subjective, then in what sense can anyone talk about fairness and morality coherently?

    The point is that the belief that fairness/morality is subjective is illogical because it is irrational.
    Plaffelvohfen
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