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Did Paul teach that Jesus is God?
in Religion

By YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 420 Pts



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  • Please start using the topic of education to teach what is biblical nor religion.

    Paul and all of the apostles stated Jesus is God.

    The problem with the confusion is that people assume that God is a singular noun.

    God is a plural noun. Read Genesis 26.

    Jesus is Lord.

    God said let is create.

    God is Yahweh the father , Jesus Christ the son and Yahweh the Holy spirit.

    God is a description of eternal individuals.
    Sand
  • SandSand 86 Pts
    The video is very educational. Carlos is right Paul never taught Jesus is God. The concept of Jesus being God is developed through deductive reasoning. If the scriptures did not actively speak against it, this would be a viable concept. But because the concept is illogical and unscriptural, Paul did not teach it.

    jesusisGod777
  • @Sand

    25  Whom G3739 God G2316 hath set forth G4388 to be a propitiation G2435through G1223 faith G4102 in G1722his G846 blood G129, to G1519declare G1732 his G846 righteousnessG1343 for G1223 the remission G3929of sins G265 that are past G4266, through G1722 the forbearance G463of God G2316note note

    Paul states Jesus is God in Romans.

    Whose blood, God's blood.

    Wrong. Antichrist.
    Sand
  • SandSand 86 Pts
    God has Blood?
    Is it really God's Blood or Jesus' Blood?
    That is why you showed the literal translation, because half the picture can make you believe anything.
    Once translated you see the real picture.

    A few translations say this:

    New International Version
    God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

    New Living Translation
    For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,

    English Standard Version
    whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

    Berean Study Bible
    God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.

    Berean Literal Bible
    whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, for a showing forth of His righteousness, because of the forbearance of the sins having taken place beforehand,

    New American Standard Bible
    whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

    New King James Version
    whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

    King James Bible
    Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Christian Standard Bible
    God presented him as an atoning sacrifice in his blood, received through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.

    International Standard Version
    whom God offered as a place where atonement by the Messiah's blood would occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past.

    NET Bible
    God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

    New Heart English Bible
    whom God set forth whom God displayed publicly as a mercy seat, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because in God's forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    This One whom God preordained as the atonement, by the faith of his blood, for the sake of our sins which we had formerly sinned,

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    God showed that Christ is the throne of mercy where God's approval is given through faith in Christ's blood. In his patience God waited to deal with sins committed in the past.

    New American Standard 1977
    whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    whom God purposed for reconciliation through faith in his blood for the manifestation of his righteousness, for the remission of sins that are past, by the patience of God,

    King James 2000 Bible
    Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    American King James Version
    Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    American Standard Version
    whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins,

    Darby Bible Translation
    whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for [the] shewing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God;

    English Revised Version
    whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by his blood, to shew his righteousness, because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

    Webster's Bible Translation
    Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Weymouth New Testament
    He it is whom God put forward as a Mercy-seat, rendered efficacious through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness-- because of the passing over, in God's forbearance, of the sins previously committed--

    World English Bible
    whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;

    Young's Literal Translation
    whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --




    Jesus is an agent of God, it is his blood.

    Is this the time I call you a derogatory term, or should I be Christ like and show love? - Ephesians 4:29,30

  • SandSand 86 Pts
    Paul never stated it and Jesus never stated it, because it isn't true.
    It is neither logical or scriptural, it is only deduced through deductive reasoning.
    But deductive reasoning is not always right.


    A deductive fallacy is defined as a deductive argument that is invalid. The argument itself could have true premises, but still have a false conclusion. Thus, a deductive fallacy is a fallacy where deduction goes wrong and is no longer a logical process.

    The false conclusion - Jesus is God.
    The true conclusion - Jesus is an agent of God.

    In every scripture used to support the conclusion of Jesus is God, Jesus states words that indicate he is not God.
    The very fact he adding these additional words proves the point he is not God.

    Deductive reasoning is only ok if the conclusion is logical.

    Jesus is God conclusion breaks the first three laws of logic.

    You cannot be something and not something at the same time and in the same sense.
    If Jesus is God, then he is not the Son of God.
    He cannot be the son of what he is. Either he is the Son of God or he is God.

    That is why the conclusion of Jesus being God is illogical and unscriptural.


    jesusisGod777BrainSocks
  • @Sand

    You're wrong, ironic name by the way for this conversation.youre so wrong infact Jesus said he is God, because he is in the Bible.

    Revelation Chapter 1 17-18

    17  And G2532 when G3753 I sawG1492 him G846, I fell G4098 atG4314 his G846 feet G4228 as G5613dead G3498. And G2532 he laid G2007his G846 right G1188 hand G5495upon G1909 me G1691, saying G3004unto me G3427, Fear G5399 notG3361; I G1473 am G1510 the firstG4413 and G2532 the last G2078:

     18  I am he that liveth G2198, andG2532 was G1096 dead G3498; andG2532, behold G2400, I am G1510alive G2198 for G1519 evermore G165, Amen G281; and G2532 have G2192the keys G2807 of hell G86 and G2532of death G2288.


    Second


    It 

    Is

    Written 

    satan

    ,


    Jesus is Lord, Romans 10:9.

    Lord definition: Yahweh the God of creation. Strong's concordance.


    So get the behind me satan and go eat the sand you pound.


    Jesus is Lord.


    Sand
  • SandSand 86 Pts

    Revelation 1:17-19 - "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. “Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

    >>>Jesus said he is God, because he is in the Bible.
    Funny, I don't see the title God anywhere in this scripture.
    Just because someone is in the Bible, doesn't make them God.

    Romans 10:9 - "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"

    Lord is from the Greek word "Kyrion", 68 occurrences, and never translated Yahweh

    Yahweh is Hebrew.

    If Jesus is God, who or what was raised from the dead?

  • @Sand

    Read Genesis 26. God said let Us create.

    God is a discription of three individuals who are equally reffered to as God not gods.

    God is a plural noun singular intensive.

    The Hebrew language is the original language of the Bible derived from Hebrew.

    The language and use of the language by the writers is the exact context the writers were applying to concepts.

    The Bible was not originally written in Greek nor Latin.

    The word jehovah isn't even a name for God as it lacks the consonants that are a part of the Hebrew alphabet.

    So no kyrion isn't a correct word that has a comparitive meaning either.

    Jesus is God and Jesus is Lord.


    Sand
  • SandSand 86 Pts

    I think you are refering to Genesis 1:26.
    Us as in God and the Angels.

    How do you get three from 'us'?
    Us definition - used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people as the object of a verb or preposition.

    The Angels were clearly there, interestingly they were titled "Sons of God"! 
    Job 38:6, 7 - “On what were its bases sunk?Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    So here is proof that Jesus by having the title "Son of God" he is calling himself an Angel!

    >>>God is a plural noun singular intensive.
    Then if he is plural then why did he refer to himself in the singular?
    Genesis 1:31 - "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."

    There are 1000 times more referenes to God with singular pronouns than plural.
    If God really is more than one and not speaking to Angels, why not always use plural pronouns?


    >>>So no kyrion isn't a correct word that has a comparitive meaning either.

    That's the scripture you just quoted, so are you arguing against yourself?

    Κύριον (Kyrion) — 68 Occurrences
    Romans 4:24 N-AMS
    GRK: Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν ἐκ
    NAS: Jesus our Lord from the dead,
    KJV: Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    INT: Jesus the Lord of us from among [the]

    Romans 10:9 N-NMS
    GRK: σου ὅτι κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ
    NAS: Jesus [as] Lord, and believe
    KJV: thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and
    INT: of you [the] Lord [is] Jesus and

    Romans 13:14 N-AMS
    GRK: ἐνδύσασθε τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν
    NAS: But put on the Lord Jesus Christ,
    KJV: But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ,
    INT: put on the Lord Jesus Christ

    Romans 15:11 N-AMS
    GRK: ἔθνη τὸν κύριον καὶ ἐπαινεσάτωσαν
    NAS: PRAISE THE LORD ALL
    KJV: again, Praise the Lord, all ye
    INT: Gentiles the Lord and praise

    >>>The word jehovah isn't even a name for God as it lacks the consonants that are a part of the Hebrew alphabet.
    What are you talking about? Do you read Strongs Concordance?

    Strong's Concordance
    Yhvh: the proper name of the God of Israel
    Original Word: יְהוָֹה
    Part of Speech: Proper Name
    Transliteration: Yhvh
    Phonetic Spelling: (yeh-ho-vaw')
    Definition: the proper name of the God of Israel


    >>>The Bible was not originally written in Greek nor Latin.
    Scholars generally recognize three languages as original biblical languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek.



    Good try, but you need more study.

    jesusisGod777
  • @Sand

    If I could pick fallacy and disagree and full retard I would.

    Genesis 1:26 without the supporting context of Revelations (amazing book by the way perfect reality)

    Says let us make man in our image.

    The image that God Yahweh is referring to in his own in that those he is making reference to share his image or the image of God.

    Considering that this was in the beggining or creation stated in genesis 1 that only God was in the beggining a logical inference can be made that God is speaking to those he is reffering to us as those who are uncreated.

    Second since you lack knowledge of biblical history the earliest text was before the masoretes , which the masoretes completed a translation completely in Hebrew.

    The Catholic false church which Catholicism is not Christian, had bibles translated from the original Hebrew in Latin and Greek.

    William tyndale, Martin Luther and others translated the Bible into the language of there specific regions dialect and what happened afterwards is known as the great schism, the separation of membership from the Catholic false church where people created non-denomination church's to preach the true meaning of the gospel and the true gospel of the Lord God Jesus the Christ Almighty.

    Second if you cross-reference John 

    John 1

     1  In G1722 the beginning G746 wasG2258 the Word G3056, and G2532the Word G3056 was G2258 withG4314 God G2316, and G2532 the Word G3056 was G2258 God G2316.


    But you read the original greek

    Eyattevion

    To kata johannhn

    It states


    Ev epxn nv o aoyos , Kain aoyos nv tpos to oeov, Kai

    Oeos nv o aoyos. Outos nv ev apxn tpos to oeov.


    Tavta so outou eyeveto, Kai, xwpis autoi eyeeveto oude ev o yeyovev


    Which in a literal translation translates to


    In the beggining was the word, and the word was - with God.


    Immediately connection the word to God as a separate person, 


    Then it says and God was the word.


    It immediately states afterward 


    This ONE was in the beggining with God.


    All things through him came into and WITHOUT HIM came into not even one that came into being.


    So based on inference just from that text alone it states


    Two people who John is reffering to as God, who are equally reffered to as God.

    10  He was G2258 in G1722 the worldG2889, and G2532 the world G2889was made G1096 by G1223 him G846, and G2532 the world G2889 knewG1097 him G846 not G3756.


    Since the subject of john chapter one verse ten is God, it states that God was in the world, and the world was made by him and the world knew him not.


    It states that the world did not know God nor who God was.


    That categorically defines religion to be based on a false concept of who God is.


    John then states in verse 13 that Jesus has authority to decide who belongs to God. A man can not have more authority as if he can decide what God has not.

    12  But G1161 as many as G3745received G2983 him G846, to themG846 gave he G1325 power G1849 to become G1096 the sons G5043 of God G2316even to them that believeG4100 on G1519 his G846 nameG3686note

     13  Which G3739 were born G1080, not G3756 of G1537 blood G129, norG3761 of G1537 the will G2307 of the flesh G4561, nor G3761 of G1537 the will G2307 of man G435, but G235 ofG1537 God G2316.


    It also relates that no one born of Jesus Christ is born of human origin.


    To insinuate that angels share the image of God is a fallacy.


    John also states in the Greek text that coming before me has becoming which the syntax implies that God had become a man.

    John also illustrates the the spirit of God knows Jesus and Jesus baptized men on the spirit of God.

    How can a man have spiritual authority over God's own spirit? He can't. Therefore Jesus was not a man but God.

    Apparently you haven't read the Bible but Jesus says he's God word for word in Luke, Revelation ( perfect book never say anything bad about it it's correct and true)


    And about everywhere on the Bible.


    Jesus said I AM. Not I AMs son, I AM.


    If you actually take into account the Greek text or the Hebrew what does that mean?


    Jesus also stated in the Bible that absolutely no one person or being knows God the  him

    Father but him.

    John 29.


    In the Greek it says I"but know him" and then it says


    Because from him I AM, and the one me sent.


    So if Jesus sent the spirit of God, how does the spirit of God obey a man?


    Considering that the Holy spirit knows Jesus, that Jesus knows God whom no one else knows and that Jesus sent the Literal Holy perfect spirit of God to the earth how does a man both know God as a spirit having never before existed as a man, and have authority as an angel to command God's spirit?


    Your off your rocker.


    Jesus is Lord and God, satan go pound sand.



    Sandethang5
  • It's also fallacious to claim Jesus is an angel because it says nothing came into being that was created by Jesus Christ the God of creation.

    So get the behind me satan, Jesus IS GOD.

    Jesus is Lord.
    Sandethang5
  • @Sand

    And for further illustration satan,

    It is written and God Jesus the Christ said

    51  And G2532 he saith G3004 unto him G846, Verily G281, verily G281, I say G3004 unto you G5213, HereafterG737 G575 ye shall see G3700 heavenG3772 open G455, and G2532 the angels G32 of God G2316 ascendingG305 and G2532 descending G2597upon G1909 the Son G5207 of manG444.

    Therefore since Jesus makes distinction between himself and angels he is not an angel.

    Jesus is God and Jesus I'd Lord.
    Sand
  • SandSand 86 Pts
    Jesus has a title of "Son of God", that is a title given to Angels.
    Just because Angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man has nothing to do with what he is.
    The Angels did the same thing to Jacob, that doesn't make him God.
    The only distinction Jesus has is his name.

    You misunderstood that scripture about Jesus and creation.
    Jesus is the Firstborn of creation.
    Colossians 1:15 - "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: "
    Revelation 3:14 - "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
    If you notice the scriptures call Jesus "creation", meaning he was "created", by a "creator" meaning he has a beginning.
    Notice that the Bible calls him "firstborn" meaning he has a beginning.

    Now lets read the scriptures you quoted.
    John 1:3 - "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. "
    It is the same as:
    Colossians 1:16 - "For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. "
    Notice the word "through" meaning Jesus is not the source of the creative power, he is a conduit, a worker, a servant.
    The version you used shows the word "by" in old english has the same meaning as "through".
    John 1:10 - "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. "
    So they are not considered by John as equals.

    By Jesus calling himself the "I AM" he is saying he is an Angel.
    The original "I AM" is an Angel.
    Exodus 3:2-6 - "And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
    Exodus 3:14 - "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”"

    This Angel spoke to Moses as if he was God. How could he do this? Because as an Agent of God he represents God.
    By Jesus saying "I AM" he is saying he is an Angel.
    Confirmation Acts 7:35, 36 - "“This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’ is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush. He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years."
    This Angel brought them out of Egypt, always speaking as God.

    >>>So if Jesus sent the spirit of God, how does the spirit of God obey a man?
    Jesus explains this:
    John 14:26 - "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
    ASB John 14:16 - ""I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;"
    Notice Jesus says he will ask the Father, If he is God there is no need to ask.
    Also there is no possible way to "send" yourself. If you are sent then you did not come. If you are sent then you are a servant.
    John 13:16 - "Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him."

    You qoute John 1:1
    This scripture shows Jesus to be god, but not the True God.
    Paul explains how Jesus is god but not the True God.
    1 Corintians 8:5, 6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. "
    Jesus is a so-called god.

    You qoute John 1:12,13
    Jesus explains this:
    Matthew 28:18 - "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."
    God gave Jesus the authority.

    >>>John also states in the Greek text that coming before me has becoming which the syntax implies that God had become a man.
    God doesn't have to do anything.
    This is the second time I asked this question.
    If God is a man, then who raised God from the dead?



    jesusisGod777
  • @Sand

    How could the angels the sons of God ascend and descend of the son of man as that would require Jesus to ascend and descend on himself you're statements fallacy, wrong and I rebuke it Jesus is Lord and Jesus is God.
    Sandethang5
  • SandSand 86 Pts
    Jesus is an Angel not all the Angels.
    Other angels ascend and desend on Jesus.

  • Listen dude your a flat our liar or extremely confused. I'm going to write you from a doctrine book. Collosians 1:16 For by him we're all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. Amen Now here's something you can't refute. Yahweh sent Jesus. John 8:18b ...the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. So the only one who bears witness to who Jesus is is God Yahweh the father. Now here's where I'm going to disprove your lie. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, the he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Now if your going to tell me that the angels are sons of God Yahweh and John 3:16 states Jesus is the only begotten of the father your a striaght liar. I don't know if you're a devil but in case you are get the behind me satan for it is written Jesus is the only beggoten of Yahweh. This is where mooselums are retarted as hell. If John is a prophet then what John says disqualifys mohammed and what John says does. mohmed was a Savage a s s h o l e ! Now here's where your going to run into completele failure in your argument. Jesus is Lord and God. John 12:9 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Boom cablooey there gos your argument because everything that comes out of Jesus Christs mouth is and was commanded and limited by Yahweh God as the source of everything Jesus said and did. Now here's where your argument further falls apart. Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him. Now it is written satan Jesus answered, if I honor myself, My honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God. Yahweh commandment Jesus to say that Yahweh honors Jesus the God of creation. Another verse John 12:27, 28 Now is my soul troubled ; and what shall I say? Father save me from my hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father glorify they name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glofiried it , and will glorify it again. Yahweh taught Jesus John 8:28 Jesus is Lord. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. John 3:34 For he whole God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. This is why the bibles not written by men but is the word of God written by men who heard it from God Jesus Christ in the Flesh of the Father the only begotten of Yahweh God who knows God. This verse is why the Bible IS the only authentic word of the Lord God Jesus Christ and Yahweh God the Father our Lord.
  • @Sand

    Listen dude your a flat our liar or extremely confused. I'm going to write you from a doctrine book.

    Collosians 1:16

    For by him we're all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.


    Amen

    Now here's something you can't refute.

    Yahweh sent Jesus.

    John 8:18b

    ...the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    So the only one who bears witness to who Jesus is is God Yahweh the father.



    Now here's where I'm going to disprove your lie.

    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world, the he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Now if your going to tell me that the angels are sons of God Yahweh and John 3:16 states Jesus is the only begotten of the father your a striaght liar.

    I don't know if you're a devil but in case you are get the behind me satan for it is written Jesus is the only beggoten of Yahweh.

    This is where mooselums are retarted as hell.

    If John is a prophet then what John says disqualifys mohammed and what John says does. mohmed was a Savage a s s h o l e !


    Now here's where your going to run into completele failure in your argument.

    Jesus is Lord and God.

    John 12:9

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandmentwhat I should say, and what I should speak.

    Boom cablooey there gos your argument because everything that comes out of Jesus Christs mouth is and was commanded and limited by Yahweh God as the source of everything Jesus said and did.

    Now here's where your argument further falls apart.

    Hebrews 1:6

    And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Now it is written satan 

    Jesus answered, if I honor myself, My honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God.

    Yahweh commandment Jesus to say that Yahweh honors Jesus the God of creation.

    Another verse

    John 12:27, 28

    Now is my soul troubled ; and what shall I say? Father save me from my hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father glorify they name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glofiried it , and will glorify it again.

    Yahweh taught Jesus

    John 8:28 Jesus is Lord.
    Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    John 3:34
    For he whole God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    This is why the bibles not written by men but is the word of God written by men who heard it from God Jesus Christ in the Flesh of the Father the only begotten of Yahweh God who knows God.

    This verse is why the Bible IS the only authentic word of the Lord God Jesus Christ and Yahweh God the Father our Lord.
  • ethang5ethang5 166 Pts
    Jesus is called God using the actual word "God" in the Epistles.

    No one has to believe Jesus is God, but it is impossible to deny that the bible calls Jesus God.

    In fact, using logic, it can be shown that it is impossible for Jesus not to be God.

    For anyone who says Jesus is not God, a few questions will show the illogic of the position when the person is not able to answer coherently.

    Jesus is called God multiple times in the bible. He is called God by angels, by his disciples, by the apostles, by God's prophets, and by the Father Himself, using the actual word "God".

    It's a closed case.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @ethang5

    Just because I don't know in what context you meant by saying no one has to believe Jesus is God are you stating a person doesn't have to beilieve Jesus is God to be saved.

    Please read Romans 10:9 as the matter determines salvation. If one does not profess with their mouth that Jesus is God which he IS they will perish and go to hell.

    Infact the Bible makes it clear that someone who does not state Jesus Is God, Lord will perish because one must say such to the Glory of Yahweh the father God.

    Jesus is Lord.
  • SandSand 86 Pts
    I will help everyone on this subject.
    The first three laws of Logic are:

    (1) the principle of identity - Truth - P is P.
    In other words, It cannot change. If Jesus is God then he is God 100%.
    Here is the question:
    Did Jesus die? If the answer is yes, then God died.
    Who resurrected Jesus? If the answer is God, that would be a lie because God is dead.
    The other answer is only a portion died. Then Jesus is not God.
    You cannot be dead and resurrect yourself.
    Some people conclude God came out of Jesus and did not die.
    Then Jesus was not resurrected because he did not die.
    As Paul said if Jesus was not resurrected then all faith is destroyed.
    1 Corinthians 15:14 - "and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

    Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus died, Jesus was resurrected by God.

    (2) the law of contradiction - Not - P is not non-P.
    In other words, no statement is both true and false.
    Jesus says No one knows the day and the hour not the son but only the father.
    Matthew 24:36 - ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
    Here is the question:
    If Jesus is God does he know the day and the hour? If the answer is yes, then Jesus lied to his disciples.
    If the answer is no, then Jesus lied to his disciples.
    If the answer is yes and no, then Jesus is not God.

    Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus says he does not know the day and hour, but God does.

    (3) law of excluded middle - Either - Either P or non-P.
    In other words, a statement is either true or false.
    Here is the question:
    Is it Jesus will to die for mankind? If Jesus is God and the answer is true or false, then Jesus lied.
    Because he said he came to do his fathers will not his.
    John 6:38 - ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
    He also prayed that not his will take place but God's will take place.
    Luke 22:42 - "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.""
    If the answer is both true and false, then Jesus is not God, because their will is different.

    Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus' will is different from God's


    This is just a few examples.
    As an agent of God, Jesus like the Angels can be called God a million times, it still would not make him God.
    Notice John 17:3 - "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    By Jesus referencing the Father as God and separating himself it denotes that Jesus is not God.
    If a reference to God is just another title for Jesus, the switching terms should be ok.
    But Jesus destroys all possibility of it being just another title, by use of the word “thee” or “you”.
    The reference "you" always refer to someone else outside of the speaker.
    You definition - used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
    Jesus is referring to someone else as being the True God.

    He also calls the Father "My God". Matthew 27:46; John 20:17
    Nowhere in the Bible does the Father call the Son "My God".
    This is because like the angels, the Son is a so-called god. - 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6.


    There are too many locations in the Bible where Jesus calls the Father “My God”. Then he compares our viewpoint and his viewpoint and places them on the same level in spirit form. He told Mary “My God” and “Your God”. With that statement, he identified himself with humans in spirit form. Why would he do that, unless he is not God?  But by stating the word ‘My’ excludes himself from being the True God.

  • ethang5ethang5 166 Pts
    @jesusisGod777

    >Just because I don't know in what context you meant by saying no one has to believe Jesus is God are you stating a person doesn't have to beilieve Jesus is God to be saved?

    No. I said nothing about salvation. I only meant two things...

    First, that God forces no one to believe, so we are free to believe or reject the idea that Jesus is God,

    And second, that believing that Jesus is God, and believing that the bible says Jesus is God are two different things.

    As Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins..." Jesus is God, and to be saved one must believe, acknowledge, and confess this.
  • ethang5ethang5 166 Pts
    @Sand

    >no statement is both true and false.

    Not to be picky, but since this is logic, it needs to be precise...

    no statement is both true and false IN THE SAME SENSE.

    >If Jesus is God then he is God 100%.

    Correct. 

    Col 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10 - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power

    Neither Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit are 1/3 God. Each is fully God 100%. In each person dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead.

    >Did Jesus die? If the answer is yes, then God died.

    That is the whole point of salvation.

    >Who resurrected Jesus? If the answer is God, that would be a lie because God is dead.

    How is that a lie? Why do you assume that God could not resurrect Himself? Is anything impossible for God?

    >The other answer is only a portion died. Then Jesus is not God.

    The bible does not teach that a “portion” died.

    >You cannot be dead and resurrect yourself.

    Says who?Jesus said…

    Jhn 10:17 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
    Jhn 10:18 - No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father

    Your god must be a very weak god indeed.

    >Some people conclude God came out of Jesus and did not die. Then Jesus was not resurrected because he did not die.

    Jesus IS God, so God could not “come out” of Him.

    >Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus died, Jesus was resurrected by God.

    The bible contradicts you. Jesus says He laid down His life Himself, no one took it from Him, and that He had the power (authority) to “take it again.”

    >Jesus says No one knows the day and the hour not the son but only the father.
    Matthew 24:36 - ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
    Here is the question:
    If Jesus is God does he know the day and the hour?

    Of course. God is omniscient.

    >If the answer is yes, then Jesus lied to his disciples.

    How so? Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is God, and the Father is God, But the Father and Jesus are different persons.

    >If the answer is no, then Jesus lied to his disciples.

    How so? What lie would that be? God is in control of His power, He can choose not to know something. As the bible tells us, Jesus voluntarily gave up his equality to the Father and submitted Himself to a position lower than Angels in order to save us.

    >If the answer is yes and no, then Jesus is not God.

    Your logic has failed you. For example, if I close my eyes, I cannot see, but retain my sense of sight. Just because I have restricted my ability to see, does not mean I do not have sight. Jesus was still God, and still omniscient, He simply restricted His ability so as to accomplish salvation.

    >Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus says he does not know the day and hour, but God does.

    This is where precision proves to be important. Jesus did not say “God does”, He said “the Father does”. So no lie, no contradiction.

    >law of excluded middle - Either - Either P or non-P.
    In other words, a statement is either true or false.
    Here is the question:
    Is it Jesus will to die for mankind?

    Yes.

    >If Jesus is God and the answer is true or false, then Jesus lied.
    Because he said he came to do his fathers will not his.
    John 6:38 - ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
    He also prayed that not his will take place but God's will take place.
    Luke 22:42 - "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.""
    If the answer is both true and false, then Jesus is not God, because their will is different.

    Sorry, but again your logic has proven faulty. You have shown that the Father has a will and that Jesus has a will, but not that those wills are different. You have only shown a difference in ownership of the wills, not that the wills are different themselves.

    >Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus' will is different from God's

    Your conclusion is wrong because you simply assumed the wills are different because they are owned by different persons. Two different persons can have the same will.

    >This is just a few examples.
    As an agent of God, Jesus like the Angels can be called God a million times, it still would not make him God.

    When the Father calls Jesus God, and when the Holy Spirit calls Jesus God, He certainly is God.

    >By Jesus referencing the Father as God and separating himself it denotes that Jesus is not God.

    Untrue. Jesus never denies being God. He said He was not the Father. He never “separated” Himself from God. This is basic Christian doctrine.

    >If a reference to God is just another title for Jesus, the switching terms should be ok.

    Untrue. The bible repeatedly tells us there is only one God, and that no one else deserves the title. Over and over the bible tells us that God does not share His glory, yet Jesus claims the glory of God.

    >But Jesus destroys all possibility of it being just another title, by use of the word “thee” or “you”. The reference "you" always refer to someone else outside of the speaker. You definition - used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing. Jesus is referring to someone else as being the True God.

    Jesus, the second person in the Godhead, is referring to the God Father, the first person in the godhead. No Christian denies that Jesus is referring to someone else. We just know that both of them are God.

    >He also calls the Father "My God". Matthew 27:46; John 20:17

    The Father is His God, and the God of everyone else too.

    >Nowhere in the Bible does the Father call the Son "My God".

    Nowhere in the Bible does the Father call the Son “My friend” either. So? Jesus was speaking to men who needed to be taught the Idea of God being their Father. The Father had no such obligation.

    >This is because like the angels, the Son is a so-called god. - 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6.

    Untrue. 
    Heb 1:5 - For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    The bible contradicts you.

    >There are too many locations in the Bible where Jesus calls the Father “My God”. Then he compares our viewpoint and his viewpoint and places them on the same level in spirit form. He told Mary “My God” and “Your God”. With that statement, he identified himself with humans in spirit form. Why would he do that, unless he is not God?

    He did that because He was not the Father, and needed to teach us about a relationship with God. The bible says nothing about " spirit forms".

    >But by stating the word ‘My’ excludes himself from being the True God.

    Untrue. The bible says…

    Phl 2:5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Phl 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phl 2:7 - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phl 2:8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross

    Your doctrine is the old heresy of Jehovah Witnesses. It is not only not supported by the bible, but actively contradicted by the bible.

    Jesus is God, and the bible affirms this.
    jesusisGod777
  • @ethang5

    If you look up Genesis 26 God said let us create.

    The Godhead is a trinity and each are equally reffered to as God.

    They are not however referred to as Gods.

    Since each is God, as they all are God, each is reffered to as God.

    God is a plural noun in Hebrew, singular intensive.

    There is no differentiation in that God is the trinity, not that they are each a God.

    This is how Jesus can be God, God the Father can be God and Yahwehs holy spirit is God.

    This is why they each make reference to eachother as God, Gos is Their mutual title as 3 eternal beings who are God in a whole sense.

    Jesus is God.

    God died.

    God the Father ressurected his human physical body.

    Jesus spirit never died.

    The ressurection is based on that believers are going to be ressurected in a new body.

    Jesus could die, physically without ceasing to exist.

    Only the body of a person essential in the context of death dies.

    Death is the seperation of the spirit from the body where the spirit returns to God.

    Jesus is an acception as being God.

    Jesus is Lord.

    Romans 10:9.

    They all three are God.


  • ethang5ethang5 166 Pts
    @jesusisGod777

    >They all three are God.

    Yes. I know. That is what I said.

  • SandSand 86 Pts
    You are filling in the blanks with assumptions, and not allowing the Bible to speak.

    >>>Neither Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit are 1/3 God. Each is fully God 100%. In each person dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead.
    I need from you a scripture that says the Holy Spirit dwells all fullness of the Godhead. - Should be nowhere in the Bible - Assumption
    Did Jesus always have the fullness of the Godhead
    According to the scriptures he did not.
    Colossians 1:19 - "For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,"
    This shows that the Godhead was not always on Jesus, only after he pleased the Father.

    >>>How is that a lie? Why do you assume that God could not resurrect Himself? Is anything impossible for God?
    Yes. The scriptures show it is impossible for God to lie or die.
    Psalms 102:26
    Habakkuk 1:12 - 
    Titus 1:2 -
    The scriptures completely argue against God dying.
    The scriptures say over and over that God resurrected Jesus, not God resurrected himself.

    Hebrews 13:20 - "Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,"
    So it is an assumption that God can do anything, he cannot lie or die among other things we will not get in to.

    >>>The bible contradicts you. Jesus says He laid down His life Himself, no one took it from Him, and that He had the power (authority) to “take it again.”
    I am not arguing against this point. I also agree Jesus layed his life down freely.
    Nevertheless, my point is Jesus died, God did not. God resurrected Jesus, in other words, God brought Jesus back to life.
    The fact that Jesus can die shows he is mortal. God is immortal, meaning he cannot die.
    God can't lay his life down for mankind, because he cannot die.
    That is why he sent his son to die for mankind.
    God gave a symbolic drama with Abraham and Isaac.
    That was the reason he allowed Abraham to be so old before he had Isaac, because he represented God and Isaac represented Jesus.
    If Jesus was God, then God would request Abraham to sacrifice himself, not his Son.
    Jesus illustrated his own position also.
    Matthew 21:33-42
    If Jesus was God, the illustration would read differently - The vineyard owner would come himself.


    As you can see some people (jesusisGod777) believe Jesus did not really die, only the body.
    Which means Jesus was not really resurrected.
    1 Corinthians 15:14 - "and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

    >>>How so? Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is God, and the Father is God, But the Father and Jesus are different persons.
    An assumption not supported by scripture.
    You cannot be different and the same.
    If Jesus is 100% God and the Father is 100% God and the Holy Spirit is 100% God.
    Then that is 300%. You believe in Polytheism.
    Different persons but all God is the definition of Polytheism - the belief in or worship of more than one god.

    >>>How so? What lie would that be? God is in control of His power, He can choose not to know something. As the bible tells us, Jesus voluntarily gave up his equality to the Father and submitted Himself to a position lower than Angels in order to save us.
    This is an assumption. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus choose not to know.
    Jesus said "no one knows....nor the Son."
    You are applying another scripture that you misread.
    Phillippians 2:5-7 - "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
    Because this is in old english it is easy to misread.
    The term is "robbery" - Does a robber snatch at what he already has? No. He snatches at what he does not possess.
    Jesus thought it "not robbery", that is not to snatch at something he did not possess, "to be equal with God".
    That is why the correct english translation is "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," - BSB, ESV, WEB, NASB, NB
    This agrees with the beginning of the sentence which says "Let this mind be in you"
    Are we humans to think we are equal with God, or not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
    I think the answer is obvious.
    Jesus does not consider himself equal with God.
    Jesus even stated this - John 14:28

    >>>Your conclusion is wrong because you simply assumed the wills are different because they are owned by different persons. Two different persons can have the same will.
    You are speaking from a human standpoint.
    Jesus made this statement showing humility.
    This statement shows humility if you are a servant of a master.
    But when wills are compared from two masters, then there is something different.

    Example: If I'm a worker under a business. And in talking to someone I say, "Not my will but the Owner's will" it denotes humility.
    But if I am co-owner and in talking to someone I say, "Not my will but the Owner's will" it denotes difference.

    Do you really believe Jesus would be sweating blood (extreme stress) over the same will?

    >>>When the Father calls Jesus God, and when the Holy Spirit calls Jesus God, He certainly is God.
    I would like to see these scriptures where the Father called Jesus God, and the Holy Spirit called Jesus God.

    >>>Heb 1:5 - For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
    Notice the words "this day", showing a starting time Jesus became "my Son"
    Notice the word "begotten", shows Jesus was created.
    definition of begotten - past of beget
    beget - bring into existence by the process of reproduction or bring about

    The question I ask you is Jesus God in heaven?
    1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
    This proves Jesus and the Holy Spirit as so-called gods.

    I like speaking with you, because you are a true servant of God, as far as I can see.
    I use to believe as you did.
    But I was able to reason with someone else who opened my eyes to what was clearly printed.
    But I am always open to correction and more learning.

  • SandSand 86 Pts

    There are no direct statements from God to man.
    Throughout the Bible every statement made by God is actually made by an Angel.
    So every reference to Yahweh in the hebrew is an Angel.
    Jesus stated at John 5:37 - "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."
    This proves every reference in the Bible of seeing God was an Angel reprentative.
    Every reference in the Bible of God speaking was an Angel reprentative.
    They also speak as if they are God.

    Think about a CEO of a Business. Bill Gates for example. He built Windows. But did he really build Windows?
    Or was it a very large group of workers who built windows? The answer is obvious, Bill Gates gets the credit for the mind behind the product.
    A king rules over his kingdom, but who enforces laws? Who makes the pronoucements? Who gives the decrees?
    Who actually feeds the people? Every action is an extention of his rulership, so he gets the credit.

    The assumption is that when the Bible says God does something.
    How many things does a CEO or King actually do, let alone a God, when you have access to perhaps a Billion Angels at your disposal.
    And every action of the Angels is glory to you?

    The Angels are called gods and sons of God.
    Psalms 82:1 - "A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:"
    Psalms 82: 6 - "I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High."
    Job 1:6 - "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them."

    So when Jesus was came to earth as a Man.
    With reference to being the Son of God and God.
    We should have knew this reference is the same as the Angels in the Bible.

    Look at Hebrews, the reference used to prove Jesus is better than the Angels.
    Hebrews 1:4 - "having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they."
    Notice it says "as" he has inherited a more excellent name.
    as - used in comparisons to refer to the extent or degree of something.
    So this scripture is saying Jesus is better than the Angels "to the extent" of a more excellent name.
    So Jesus only better because of his name.
    Hebrews also says the reason Jesus was selected.
    Hebrews 1:9 - "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”"
    Notice it says Jesus has "companions". Who is Jesus companions?
    The answer is obvious. Whoever they were they was just a qualified as Jesus.
    But Jesus was different better because he loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
    Some people reference Jesus being worshiped by the Angels as a reason for him being better than them.
    Lets look at that scripture:
    Hebrews 1:6 - "But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”"
    Worship to Angels is ok when in connection to the Father, this is seen through out the scriptures.
    But worship not in connection to God is to be rejected by Angels.
    Notice that the Angels do not worship without God's command for them to worship Jesus.
    Nevertheless, Jesus rejects worship given apart from God later in the scriptures.

    Please feel free to rebut.
  • SandSand 86 Pts
    I understand.

    Occam's razor essentially states that simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones.
    What is simpler:
    The Father is the True God, and Jesus is an Angel, the things Jesus does have been granted for him to do.
    Or
    The Father is 100% God, and Jesus is 100% God, and the Holy Spirit is 100% God, They are different persons, Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, they are completely different, but they are all one and the same.

    Which concept has more assumptions? Which concept is more complex? Which concept is more Logical?
    The Trinity is an extraordinary claim, and an extraordinary claim needs extraordinary evidence. The Trinity is very, very, very complex. Think about it. If a person claimed to be God. This would be an extraordinary claim, you would need a lot of proof! Why do we not treat Jesus the same way? Especially with him making statements the indicate he is an Angel.

    Like Jesus said he was sent if he is 100% God the better terminology is "came".
    Luke 4:43 - "But he replied, “I must preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God in other towns, too, because that is why I was sent.”"
    Luke 1:19 - "And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news."
    Jesus speaks as an Angel, uses similar terminology as Gabriel.

    Jesus uses other words that do the same things, begotten, ask, will, my God, etc.
    If you are God why compare your will with God? There is no need unless they are different.
    If you are God there is no need to "ask" anybody anything, you are God do what you want!
    Other wordings in the Bible that causes problems like, intercedes, anointed, priest, mediator, appointed, has a head, the doctrine is not his, subjected to God,etc.
    There are too many things that say he is an Angel.
  • @Sand

    Thanks for your responses Sand. I'll post my reply later today.
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