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Did Paul teach that Jesus is God?
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  • Please start using the topic of education to teach what is biblical nor religion.

    Paul and all of the apostles stated Jesus is God.

    The problem with the confusion is that people assume that God is a singular noun.

    God is a plural noun. Read Genesis 26.

    Jesus is Lord.

    God said let is create.

    God is Yahweh the father , Jesus Christ the son and Yahweh the Holy spirit.

    God is a description of eternal individuals.
    Sand
  • SandSand 93 Pts
    The video is very educational. Carlos is right Paul never taught Jesus is God. The concept of Jesus being God is developed through deductive reasoning. If the scriptures did not actively speak against it, this would be a viable concept. But because the concept is illogical and unscriptural, Paul did not teach it.

    jesusisGod777
  • @Sand

    25  Whom G3739 God G2316 hath set forth G4388 to be a propitiation G2435through G1223 faith G4102 in G1722his G846 blood G129, to G1519declare G1732 his G846 righteousnessG1343 for G1223 the remission G3929of sins G265 that are past G4266, through G1722 the forbearance G463of God G2316note note

    Paul states Jesus is God in Romans.

    Whose blood, God's blood.

    Wrong. Antichrist.
    Sand
  • SandSand 93 Pts
    God has Blood?
    Is it really God's Blood or Jesus' Blood?
    That is why you showed the literal translation, because half the picture can make you believe anything.
    Once translated you see the real picture.

    A few translations say this:

    New International Version
    God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

    New Living Translation
    For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,

    English Standard Version
    whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

    Berean Study Bible
    God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.

    Berean Literal Bible
    whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, for a showing forth of His righteousness, because of the forbearance of the sins having taken place beforehand,

    New American Standard Bible
    whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

    New King James Version
    whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

    King James Bible
    Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Christian Standard Bible
    God presented him as an atoning sacrifice in his blood, received through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.

    International Standard Version
    whom God offered as a place where atonement by the Messiah's blood would occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past.

    NET Bible
    God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

    New Heart English Bible
    whom God set forth whom God displayed publicly as a mercy seat, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because in God's forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    This One whom God preordained as the atonement, by the faith of his blood, for the sake of our sins which we had formerly sinned,

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    God showed that Christ is the throne of mercy where God's approval is given through faith in Christ's blood. In his patience God waited to deal with sins committed in the past.

    New American Standard 1977
    whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    whom God purposed for reconciliation through faith in his blood for the manifestation of his righteousness, for the remission of sins that are past, by the patience of God,

    King James 2000 Bible
    Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    American King James Version
    Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    American Standard Version
    whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins,

    Darby Bible Translation
    whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood, for [the] shewing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God;

    English Revised Version
    whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by his blood, to shew his righteousness, because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

    Webster's Bible Translation
    Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Weymouth New Testament
    He it is whom God put forward as a Mercy-seat, rendered efficacious through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness-- because of the passing over, in God's forbearance, of the sins previously committed--

    World English Bible
    whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;

    Young's Literal Translation
    whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God --




    Jesus is an agent of God, it is his blood.

    Is this the time I call you a derogatory term, or should I be Christ like and show love? - Ephesians 4:29,30

  • SandSand 93 Pts
    Paul never stated it and Jesus never stated it, because it isn't true.
    It is neither logical or scriptural, it is only deduced through deductive reasoning.
    But deductive reasoning is not always right.


    A deductive fallacy is defined as a deductive argument that is invalid. The argument itself could have true premises, but still have a false conclusion. Thus, a deductive fallacy is a fallacy where deduction goes wrong and is no longer a logical process.

    The false conclusion - Jesus is God.
    The true conclusion - Jesus is an agent of God.

    In every scripture used to support the conclusion of Jesus is God, Jesus states words that indicate he is not God.
    The very fact he adding these additional words proves the point he is not God.

    Deductive reasoning is only ok if the conclusion is logical.

    Jesus is God conclusion breaks the first three laws of logic.

    You cannot be something and not something at the same time and in the same sense.
    If Jesus is God, then he is not the Son of God.
    He cannot be the son of what he is. Either he is the Son of God or he is God.

    That is why the conclusion of Jesus being God is illogical and unscriptural.


    jesusisGod777BrainSocks
  • @Sand

    You're wrong, ironic name by the way for this conversation.youre so wrong infact Jesus said he is God, because he is in the Bible.

    Revelation Chapter 1 17-18

    17  And G2532 when G3753 I sawG1492 him G846, I fell G4098 atG4314 his G846 feet G4228 as G5613dead G3498. And G2532 he laid G2007his G846 right G1188 hand G5495upon G1909 me G1691, saying G3004unto me G3427, Fear G5399 notG3361; I G1473 am G1510 the firstG4413 and G2532 the last G2078:

     18  I am he that liveth G2198, andG2532 was G1096 dead G3498; andG2532, behold G2400, I am G1510alive G2198 for G1519 evermore G165, Amen G281; and G2532 have G2192the keys G2807 of hell G86 and G2532of death G2288.


    Second


    It 

    Is

    Written 

    satan

    ,


    Jesus is Lord, Romans 10:9.

    Lord definition: Yahweh the God of creation. Strong's concordance.


    So get the behind me satan and go eat the sand you pound.


    Jesus is Lord.


    Sand대왕광개토
  • SandSand 93 Pts

    Revelation 1:17-19 - "When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. “Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

    >>>Jesus said he is God, because he is in the Bible.
    Funny, I don't see the title God anywhere in this scripture.
    Just because someone is in the Bible, doesn't make them God.

    Romans 10:9 - "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"

    Lord is from the Greek word "Kyrion", 68 occurrences, and never translated Yahweh

    Yahweh is Hebrew.

    If Jesus is God, who or what was raised from the dead?

    seanyville
  • @Sand

    Read Genesis 26. God said let Us create.

    God is a discription of three individuals who are equally reffered to as God not gods.

    God is a plural noun singular intensive.

    The Hebrew language is the original language of the Bible derived from Hebrew.

    The language and use of the language by the writers is the exact context the writers were applying to concepts.

    The Bible was not originally written in Greek nor Latin.

    The word jehovah isn't even a name for God as it lacks the consonants that are a part of the Hebrew alphabet.

    So no kyrion isn't a correct word that has a comparitive meaning either.

    Jesus is God and Jesus is Lord.


    Sand
  • SandSand 93 Pts

    I think you are refering to Genesis 1:26.
    Us as in God and the Angels.

    How do you get three from 'us'?
    Us definition - used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people as the object of a verb or preposition.

    The Angels were clearly there, interestingly they were titled "Sons of God"! 
    Job 38:6, 7 - “On what were its bases sunk?Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    So here is proof that Jesus by having the title "Son of God" he is calling himself an Angel!

    >>>God is a plural noun singular intensive.
    Then if he is plural then why did he refer to himself in the singular?
    Genesis 1:31 - "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."

    There are 1000 times more referenes to God with singular pronouns than plural.
    If God really is more than one and not speaking to Angels, why not always use plural pronouns?


    >>>So no kyrion isn't a correct word that has a comparitive meaning either.

    That's the scripture you just quoted, so are you arguing against yourself?

    Κύριον (Kyrion) — 68 Occurrences
    Romans 4:24 N-AMS
    GRK: Ἰησοῦν τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν ἐκ
    NAS: Jesus our Lord from the dead,
    KJV: Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    INT: Jesus the Lord of us from among [the]

    Romans 10:9 N-NMS
    GRK: σου ὅτι κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ
    NAS: Jesus [as] Lord, and believe
    KJV: thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and
    INT: of you [the] Lord [is] Jesus and

    Romans 13:14 N-AMS
    GRK: ἐνδύσασθε τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν
    NAS: But put on the Lord Jesus Christ,
    KJV: But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ,
    INT: put on the Lord Jesus Christ

    Romans 15:11 N-AMS
    GRK: ἔθνη τὸν κύριον καὶ ἐπαινεσάτωσαν
    NAS: PRAISE THE LORD ALL
    KJV: again, Praise the Lord, all ye
    INT: Gentiles the Lord and praise

    >>>The word jehovah isn't even a name for God as it lacks the consonants that are a part of the Hebrew alphabet.
    What are you talking about? Do you read Strongs Concordance?

    Strong's Concordance
    Yhvh: the proper name of the God of Israel
    Original Word: יְהוָֹה
    Part of Speech: Proper Name
    Transliteration: Yhvh
    Phonetic Spelling: (yeh-ho-vaw')
    Definition: the proper name of the God of Israel


    >>>The Bible was not originally written in Greek nor Latin.
    Scholars generally recognize three languages as original biblical languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek.



    Good try, but you need more study.

    jesusisGod777
  • @Sand

    If I could pick fallacy and disagree and full retard I would.

    Genesis 1:26 without the supporting context of Revelations (amazing book by the way perfect reality)

    Says let us make man in our image.

    The image that God Yahweh is referring to in his own in that those he is making reference to share his image or the image of God.

    Considering that this was in the beggining or creation stated in genesis 1 that only God was in the beggining a logical inference can be made that God is speaking to those he is reffering to us as those who are uncreated.

    Second since you lack knowledge of biblical history the earliest text was before the masoretes , which the masoretes completed a translation completely in Hebrew.

    The Catholic false church which Catholicism is not Christian, had bibles translated from the original Hebrew in Latin and Greek.

    William tyndale, Martin Luther and others translated the Bible into the language of there specific regions dialect and what happened afterwards is known as the great schism, the separation of membership from the Catholic false church where people created non-denomination church's to preach the true meaning of the gospel and the true gospel of the Lord God Jesus the Christ Almighty.

    Second if you cross-reference John 

    John 1

     1  In G1722 the beginning G746 wasG2258 the Word G3056, and G2532the Word G3056 was G2258 withG4314 God G2316, and G2532 the Word G3056 was G2258 God G2316.


    But you read the original greek

    Eyattevion

    To kata johannhn

    It states


    Ev epxn nv o aoyos , Kain aoyos nv tpos to oeov, Kai

    Oeos nv o aoyos. Outos nv ev apxn tpos to oeov.


    Tavta so outou eyeveto, Kai, xwpis autoi eyeeveto oude ev o yeyovev


    Which in a literal translation translates to


    In the beggining was the word, and the word was - with God.


    Immediately connection the word to God as a separate person, 


    Then it says and God was the word.


    It immediately states afterward 


    This ONE was in the beggining with God.


    All things through him came into and WITHOUT HIM came into not even one that came into being.


    So based on inference just from that text alone it states


    Two people who John is reffering to as God, who are equally reffered to as God.

    10  He was G2258 in G1722 the worldG2889, and G2532 the world G2889was made G1096 by G1223 him G846, and G2532 the world G2889 knewG1097 him G846 not G3756.


    Since the subject of john chapter one verse ten is God, it states that God was in the world, and the world was made by him and the world knew him not.


    It states that the world did not know God nor who God was.


    That categorically defines religion to be based on a false concept of who God is.


    John then states in verse 13 that Jesus has authority to decide who belongs to God. A man can not have more authority as if he can decide what God has not.

    12  But G1161 as many as G3745received G2983 him G846, to themG846 gave he G1325 power G1849 to become G1096 the sons G5043 of God G2316even to them that believeG4100 on G1519 his G846 nameG3686note

     13  Which G3739 were born G1080, not G3756 of G1537 blood G129, norG3761 of G1537 the will G2307 of the flesh G4561, nor G3761 of G1537 the will G2307 of man G435, but G235 ofG1537 God G2316.


    It also relates that no one born of Jesus Christ is born of human origin.


    To insinuate that angels share the image of God is a fallacy.


    John also states in the Greek text that coming before me has becoming which the syntax implies that God had become a man.

    John also illustrates the the spirit of God knows Jesus and Jesus baptized men on the spirit of God.

    How can a man have spiritual authority over God's own spirit? He can't. Therefore Jesus was not a man but God.

    Apparently you haven't read the Bible but Jesus says he's God word for word in Luke, Revelation ( perfect book never say anything bad about it it's correct and true)


    And about everywhere on the Bible.


    Jesus said I AM. Not I AMs son, I AM.


    If you actually take into account the Greek text or the Hebrew what does that mean?


    Jesus also stated in the Bible that absolutely no one person or being knows God the  him

    Father but him.

    John 29.


    In the Greek it says I"but know him" and then it says


    Because from him I AM, and the one me sent.


    So if Jesus sent the spirit of God, how does the spirit of God obey a man?


    Considering that the Holy spirit knows Jesus, that Jesus knows God whom no one else knows and that Jesus sent the Literal Holy perfect spirit of God to the earth how does a man both know God as a spirit having never before existed as a man, and have authority as an angel to command God's spirit?


    Your off your rocker.


    Jesus is Lord and God, satan go pound sand.



    Sandethang5
  • It's also fallacious to claim Jesus is an angel because it says nothing came into being that was created by Jesus Christ the God of creation.

    So get the behind me satan, Jesus IS GOD.

    Jesus is Lord.
    Sandethang5
  • @Sand

    And for further illustration satan,

    It is written and God Jesus the Christ said

    51  And G2532 he saith G3004 unto him G846, Verily G281, verily G281, I say G3004 unto you G5213, HereafterG737 G575 ye shall see G3700 heavenG3772 open G455, and G2532 the angels G32 of God G2316 ascendingG305 and G2532 descending G2597upon G1909 the Son G5207 of manG444.

    Therefore since Jesus makes distinction between himself and angels he is not an angel.

    Jesus is God and Jesus I'd Lord.
    Sand
  • SandSand 93 Pts
    Jesus has a title of "Son of God", that is a title given to Angels.
    Just because Angels ascending and descending upon the Son of man has nothing to do with what he is.
    The Angels did the same thing to Jacob, that doesn't make him God.
    The only distinction Jesus has is his name.

    You misunderstood that scripture about Jesus and creation.
    Jesus is the Firstborn of creation.
    Colossians 1:15 - "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: "
    Revelation 3:14 - "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
    If you notice the scriptures call Jesus "creation", meaning he was "created", by a "creator" meaning he has a beginning.
    Notice that the Bible calls him "firstborn" meaning he has a beginning.

    Now lets read the scriptures you quoted.
    John 1:3 - "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. "
    It is the same as:
    Colossians 1:16 - "For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. "
    Notice the word "through" meaning Jesus is not the source of the creative power, he is a conduit, a worker, a servant.
    The version you used shows the word "by" in old english has the same meaning as "through".
    John 1:10 - "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. "
    So they are not considered by John as equals.

    By Jesus calling himself the "I AM" he is saying he is an Angel.
    The original "I AM" is an Angel.
    Exodus 3:2-6 - "And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
    Exodus 3:14 - "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”"

    This Angel spoke to Moses as if he was God. How could he do this? Because as an Agent of God he represents God.
    By Jesus saying "I AM" he is saying he is an Angel.
    Confirmation Acts 7:35, 36 - "“This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’ is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush. He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years."
    This Angel brought them out of Egypt, always speaking as God.

    >>>So if Jesus sent the spirit of God, how does the spirit of God obey a man?
    Jesus explains this:
    John 14:26 - "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
    ASB John 14:16 - ""I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;"
    Notice Jesus says he will ask the Father, If he is God there is no need to ask.
    Also there is no possible way to "send" yourself. If you are sent then you did not come. If you are sent then you are a servant.
    John 13:16 - "Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him."

    You qoute John 1:1
    This scripture shows Jesus to be god, but not the True God.
    Paul explains how Jesus is god but not the True God.
    1 Corintians 8:5, 6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. "
    Jesus is a so-called god.

    You qoute John 1:12,13
    Jesus explains this:
    Matthew 28:18 - "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."
    God gave Jesus the authority.

    >>>John also states in the Greek text that coming before me has becoming which the syntax implies that God had become a man.
    God doesn't have to do anything.
    This is the second time I asked this question.
    If God is a man, then who raised God from the dead?



    jesusisGod777
  • @Sand

    How could the angels the sons of God ascend and descend of the son of man as that would require Jesus to ascend and descend on himself you're statements fallacy, wrong and I rebuke it Jesus is Lord and Jesus is God.
    Sandethang5
  • SandSand 93 Pts
    Jesus is an Angel not all the Angels.
    Other angels ascend and desend on Jesus.

  • Listen dude your a flat our liar or extremely confused. I'm going to write you from a doctrine book. Collosians 1:16 For by him we're all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. Amen Now here's something you can't refute. Yahweh sent Jesus. John 8:18b ...the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. So the only one who bears witness to who Jesus is is God Yahweh the father. Now here's where I'm going to disprove your lie. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, the he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Now if your going to tell me that the angels are sons of God Yahweh and John 3:16 states Jesus is the only begotten of the father your a striaght liar. I don't know if you're a devil but in case you are get the behind me satan for it is written Jesus is the only beggoten of Yahweh. This is where mooselums are retarted as hell. If John is a prophet then what John says disqualifys mohammed and what John says does. mohmed was a Savage a s s h o l e ! Now here's where your going to run into completele failure in your argument. Jesus is Lord and God. John 12:9 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. Boom cablooey there gos your argument because everything that comes out of Jesus Christs mouth is and was commanded and limited by Yahweh God as the source of everything Jesus said and did. Now here's where your argument further falls apart. Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him. Now it is written satan Jesus answered, if I honor myself, My honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God. Yahweh commandment Jesus to say that Yahweh honors Jesus the God of creation. Another verse John 12:27, 28 Now is my soul troubled ; and what shall I say? Father save me from my hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father glorify they name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glofiried it , and will glorify it again. Yahweh taught Jesus John 8:28 Jesus is Lord. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. John 3:34 For he whole God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. This is why the bibles not written by men but is the word of God written by men who heard it from God Jesus Christ in the Flesh of the Father the only begotten of Yahweh God who knows God. This verse is why the Bible IS the only authentic word of the Lord God Jesus Christ and Yahweh God the Father our Lord.
  • @Sand

    Listen dude your a flat our liar or extremely confused. I'm going to write you from a doctrine book.

    Collosians 1:16

    For by him we're all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.


    Amen

    Now here's something you can't refute.

    Yahweh sent Jesus.

    John 8:18b

    ...the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

    So the only one who bears witness to who Jesus is is God Yahweh the father.



    Now here's where I'm going to disprove your lie.

    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world, the he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Now if your going to tell me that the angels are sons of God Yahweh and John 3:16 states Jesus is the only begotten of the father your a striaght liar.

    I don't know if you're a devil but in case you are get the behind me satan for it is written Jesus is the only beggoten of Yahweh.

    This is where mooselums are retarted as hell.

    If John is a prophet then what John says disqualifys mohammed and what John says does. mohmed was a Savage a s s h o l e !


    Now here's where your going to run into completele failure in your argument.

    Jesus is Lord and God.

    John 12:9

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandmentwhat I should say, and what I should speak.

    Boom cablooey there gos your argument because everything that comes out of Jesus Christs mouth is and was commanded and limited by Yahweh God as the source of everything Jesus said and did.

    Now here's where your argument further falls apart.

    Hebrews 1:6

    And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he said, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Now it is written satan 

    Jesus answered, if I honor myself, My honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God.

    Yahweh commandment Jesus to say that Yahweh honors Jesus the God of creation.

    Another verse

    John 12:27, 28

    Now is my soul troubled ; and what shall I say? Father save me from my hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father glorify they name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glofiried it , and will glorify it again.

    Yahweh taught Jesus

    John 8:28 Jesus is Lord.
    Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    John 3:34
    For he whole God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    This is why the bibles not written by men but is the word of God written by men who heard it from God Jesus Christ in the Flesh of the Father the only begotten of Yahweh God who knows God.

    This verse is why the Bible IS the only authentic word of the Lord God Jesus Christ and Yahweh God the Father our Lord.
  • ethang5ethang5 171 Pts
    Jesus is called God using the actual word "God" in the Epistles.

    No one has to believe Jesus is God, but it is impossible to deny that the bible calls Jesus God.

    In fact, using logic, it can be shown that it is impossible for Jesus not to be God.

    For anyone who says Jesus is not God, a few questions will show the illogic of the position when the person is not able to answer coherently.

    Jesus is called God multiple times in the bible. He is called God by angels, by his disciples, by the apostles, by God's prophets, and by the Father Himself, using the actual word "God".

    It's a closed case.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @ethang5

    Just because I don't know in what context you meant by saying no one has to believe Jesus is God are you stating a person doesn't have to beilieve Jesus is God to be saved.

    Please read Romans 10:9 as the matter determines salvation. If one does not profess with their mouth that Jesus is God which he IS they will perish and go to hell.

    Infact the Bible makes it clear that someone who does not state Jesus Is God, Lord will perish because one must say such to the Glory of Yahweh the father God.

    Jesus is Lord.
  • SandSand 93 Pts
    I will help everyone on this subject.
    The first three laws of Logic are:

    (1) the principle of identity - Truth - P is P.
    In other words, It cannot change. If Jesus is God then he is God 100%.
    Here is the question:
    Did Jesus die? If the answer is yes, then God died.
    Who resurrected Jesus? If the answer is God, that would be a lie because God is dead.
    The other answer is only a portion died. Then Jesus is not God.
    You cannot be dead and resurrect yourself.
    Some people conclude God came out of Jesus and did not die.
    Then Jesus was not resurrected because he did not die.
    As Paul said if Jesus was not resurrected then all faith is destroyed.
    1 Corinthians 15:14 - "and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

    Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus died, Jesus was resurrected by God.

    (2) the law of contradiction - Not - P is not non-P.
    In other words, no statement is both true and false.
    Jesus says No one knows the day and the hour not the son but only the father.
    Matthew 24:36 - ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
    Here is the question:
    If Jesus is God does he know the day and the hour? If the answer is yes, then Jesus lied to his disciples.
    If the answer is no, then Jesus lied to his disciples.
    If the answer is yes and no, then Jesus is not God.

    Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus says he does not know the day and hour, but God does.

    (3) law of excluded middle - Either - Either P or non-P.
    In other words, a statement is either true or false.
    Here is the question:
    Is it Jesus will to die for mankind? If Jesus is God and the answer is true or false, then Jesus lied.
    Because he said he came to do his fathers will not his.
    John 6:38 - ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
    He also prayed that not his will take place but God's will take place.
    Luke 22:42 - "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.""
    If the answer is both true and false, then Jesus is not God, because their will is different.

    Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus' will is different from God's


    This is just a few examples.
    As an agent of God, Jesus like the Angels can be called God a million times, it still would not make him God.
    Notice John 17:3 - "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    By Jesus referencing the Father as God and separating himself it denotes that Jesus is not God.
    If a reference to God is just another title for Jesus, the switching terms should be ok.
    But Jesus destroys all possibility of it being just another title, by use of the word “thee” or “you”.
    The reference "you" always refer to someone else outside of the speaker.
    You definition - used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing.
    Jesus is referring to someone else as being the True God.

    He also calls the Father "My God". Matthew 27:46; John 20:17
    Nowhere in the Bible does the Father call the Son "My God".
    This is because like the angels, the Son is a so-called god. - 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6.


    There are too many locations in the Bible where Jesus calls the Father “My God”. Then he compares our viewpoint and his viewpoint and places them on the same level in spirit form. He told Mary “My God” and “Your God”. With that statement, he identified himself with humans in spirit form. Why would he do that, unless he is not God?  But by stating the word ‘My’ excludes himself from being the True God.

  • ethang5ethang5 171 Pts
    @jesusisGod777

    >Just because I don't know in what context you meant by saying no one has to believe Jesus is God are you stating a person doesn't have to beilieve Jesus is God to be saved?

    No. I said nothing about salvation. I only meant two things...

    First, that God forces no one to believe, so we are free to believe or reject the idea that Jesus is God,

    And second, that believing that Jesus is God, and believing that the bible says Jesus is God are two different things.

    As Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins..." Jesus is God, and to be saved one must believe, acknowledge, and confess this.
  • ethang5ethang5 171 Pts
    @Sand

    >no statement is both true and false.

    Not to be picky, but since this is logic, it needs to be precise...

    no statement is both true and false IN THE SAME SENSE.

    >If Jesus is God then he is God 100%.

    Correct. 

    Col 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10 - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power

    Neither Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit are 1/3 God. Each is fully God 100%. In each person dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead.

    >Did Jesus die? If the answer is yes, then God died.

    That is the whole point of salvation.

    >Who resurrected Jesus? If the answer is God, that would be a lie because God is dead.

    How is that a lie? Why do you assume that God could not resurrect Himself? Is anything impossible for God?

    >The other answer is only a portion died. Then Jesus is not God.

    The bible does not teach that a “portion” died.

    >You cannot be dead and resurrect yourself.

    Says who?Jesus said…

    Jhn 10:17 - Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
    Jhn 10:18 - No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father

    Your god must be a very weak god indeed.

    >Some people conclude God came out of Jesus and did not die. Then Jesus was not resurrected because he did not die.

    Jesus IS God, so God could not “come out” of Him.

    >Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus died, Jesus was resurrected by God.

    The bible contradicts you. Jesus says He laid down His life Himself, no one took it from Him, and that He had the power (authority) to “take it again.”

    >Jesus says No one knows the day and the hour not the son but only the father.
    Matthew 24:36 - ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
    Here is the question:
    If Jesus is God does he know the day and the hour?

    Of course. God is omniscient.

    >If the answer is yes, then Jesus lied to his disciples.

    How so? Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is God, and the Father is God, But the Father and Jesus are different persons.

    >If the answer is no, then Jesus lied to his disciples.

    How so? What lie would that be? God is in control of His power, He can choose not to know something. As the bible tells us, Jesus voluntarily gave up his equality to the Father and submitted Himself to a position lower than Angels in order to save us.

    >If the answer is yes and no, then Jesus is not God.

    Your logic has failed you. For example, if I close my eyes, I cannot see, but retain my sense of sight. Just because I have restricted my ability to see, does not mean I do not have sight. Jesus was still God, and still omniscient, He simply restricted His ability so as to accomplish salvation.

    >Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus says he does not know the day and hour, but God does.

    This is where precision proves to be important. Jesus did not say “God does”, He said “the Father does”. So no lie, no contradiction.

    >law of excluded middle - Either - Either P or non-P.
    In other words, a statement is either true or false.
    Here is the question:
    Is it Jesus will to die for mankind?

    Yes.

    >If Jesus is God and the answer is true or false, then Jesus lied.
    Because he said he came to do his fathers will not his.
    John 6:38 - ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
    He also prayed that not his will take place but God's will take place.
    Luke 22:42 - "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.""
    If the answer is both true and false, then Jesus is not God, because their will is different.

    Sorry, but again your logic has proven faulty. You have shown that the Father has a will and that Jesus has a will, but not that those wills are different. You have only shown a difference in ownership of the wills, not that the wills are different themselves.

    >Conclusion - Jesus is not God, because Jesus' will is different from God's

    Your conclusion is wrong because you simply assumed the wills are different because they are owned by different persons. Two different persons can have the same will.

    >This is just a few examples.
    As an agent of God, Jesus like the Angels can be called God a million times, it still would not make him God.

    When the Father calls Jesus God, and when the Holy Spirit calls Jesus God, He certainly is God.

    >By Jesus referencing the Father as God and separating himself it denotes that Jesus is not God.

    Untrue. Jesus never denies being God. He said He was not the Father. He never “separated” Himself from God. This is basic Christian doctrine.

    >If a reference to God is just another title for Jesus, the switching terms should be ok.

    Untrue. The bible repeatedly tells us there is only one God, and that no one else deserves the title. Over and over the bible tells us that God does not share His glory, yet Jesus claims the glory of God.

    >But Jesus destroys all possibility of it being just another title, by use of the word “thee” or “you”. The reference "you" always refer to someone else outside of the speaker. You definition - used to refer to the person or people that the speaker is addressing. Jesus is referring to someone else as being the True God.

    Jesus, the second person in the Godhead, is referring to the God Father, the first person in the godhead. No Christian denies that Jesus is referring to someone else. We just know that both of them are God.

    >He also calls the Father "My God". Matthew 27:46; John 20:17

    The Father is His God, and the God of everyone else too.

    >Nowhere in the Bible does the Father call the Son "My God".

    Nowhere in the Bible does the Father call the Son “My friend” either. So? Jesus was speaking to men who needed to be taught the Idea of God being their Father. The Father had no such obligation.

    >This is because like the angels, the Son is a so-called god. - 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6.

    Untrue. 
    Heb 1:5 - For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    The bible contradicts you.

    >There are too many locations in the Bible where Jesus calls the Father “My God”. Then he compares our viewpoint and his viewpoint and places them on the same level in spirit form. He told Mary “My God” and “Your God”. With that statement, he identified himself with humans in spirit form. Why would he do that, unless he is not God?

    He did that because He was not the Father, and needed to teach us about a relationship with God. The bible says nothing about " spirit forms".

    >But by stating the word ‘My’ excludes himself from being the True God.

    Untrue. The bible says…

    Phl 2:5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Phl 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phl 2:7 - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phl 2:8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross

    Your doctrine is the old heresy of Jehovah Witnesses. It is not only not supported by the bible, but actively contradicted by the bible.

    Jesus is God, and the bible affirms this.
    jesusisGod777
  • @ethang5

    If you look up Genesis 26 God said let us create.

    The Godhead is a trinity and each are equally reffered to as God.

    They are not however referred to as Gods.

    Since each is God, as they all are God, each is reffered to as God.

    God is a plural noun in Hebrew, singular intensive.

    There is no differentiation in that God is the trinity, not that they are each a God.

    This is how Jesus can be God, God the Father can be God and Yahwehs holy spirit is God.

    This is why they each make reference to eachother as God, Gos is Their mutual title as 3 eternal beings who are God in a whole sense.

    Jesus is God.

    God died.

    God the Father ressurected his human physical body.

    Jesus spirit never died.

    The ressurection is based on that believers are going to be ressurected in a new body.

    Jesus could die, physically without ceasing to exist.

    Only the body of a person essential in the context of death dies.

    Death is the seperation of the spirit from the body where the spirit returns to God.

    Jesus is an acception as being God.

    Jesus is Lord.

    Romans 10:9.

    They all three are God.


  • ethang5ethang5 171 Pts
    @jesusisGod777

    >They all three are God.

    Yes. I know. That is what I said.

  • SandSand 93 Pts
    You are filling in the blanks with assumptions, and not allowing the Bible to speak.

    >>>Neither Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit are 1/3 God. Each is fully God 100%. In each person dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead.
    I need from you a scripture that says the Holy Spirit dwells all fullness of the Godhead. - Should be nowhere in the Bible - Assumption
    Did Jesus always have the fullness of the Godhead
    According to the scriptures he did not.
    Colossians 1:19 - "For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,"
    This shows that the Godhead was not always on Jesus, only after he pleased the Father.

    >>>How is that a lie? Why do you assume that God could not resurrect Himself? Is anything impossible for God?
    Yes. The scriptures show it is impossible for God to lie or die.
    Psalms 102:26
    Habakkuk 1:12 - 
    Titus 1:2 -
    The scriptures completely argue against God dying.
    The scriptures say over and over that God resurrected Jesus, not God resurrected himself.

    Hebrews 13:20 - "Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,"
    So it is an assumption that God can do anything, he cannot lie or die among other things we will not get in to.

    >>>The bible contradicts you. Jesus says He laid down His life Himself, no one took it from Him, and that He had the power (authority) to “take it again.”
    I am not arguing against this point. I also agree Jesus layed his life down freely.
    Nevertheless, my point is Jesus died, God did not. God resurrected Jesus, in other words, God brought Jesus back to life.
    The fact that Jesus can die shows he is mortal. God is immortal, meaning he cannot die.
    God can't lay his life down for mankind, because he cannot die.
    That is why he sent his son to die for mankind.
    God gave a symbolic drama with Abraham and Isaac.
    That was the reason he allowed Abraham to be so old before he had Isaac, because he represented God and Isaac represented Jesus.
    If Jesus was God, then God would request Abraham to sacrifice himself, not his Son.
    Jesus illustrated his own position also.
    Matthew 21:33-42
    If Jesus was God, the illustration would read differently - The vineyard owner would come himself.


    As you can see some people (jesusisGod777) believe Jesus did not really die, only the body.
    Which means Jesus was not really resurrected.
    1 Corinthians 15:14 - "and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain."

    >>>How so? Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is God, and the Father is God, But the Father and Jesus are different persons.
    An assumption not supported by scripture.
    You cannot be different and the same.
    If Jesus is 100% God and the Father is 100% God and the Holy Spirit is 100% God.
    Then that is 300%. You believe in Polytheism.
    Different persons but all God is the definition of Polytheism - the belief in or worship of more than one god.

    >>>How so? What lie would that be? God is in control of His power, He can choose not to know something. As the bible tells us, Jesus voluntarily gave up his equality to the Father and submitted Himself to a position lower than Angels in order to save us.
    This is an assumption. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus choose not to know.
    Jesus said "no one knows....nor the Son."
    You are applying another scripture that you misread.
    Phillippians 2:5-7 - "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
    Because this is in old english it is easy to misread.
    The term is "robbery" - Does a robber snatch at what he already has? No. He snatches at what he does not possess.
    Jesus thought it "not robbery", that is not to snatch at something he did not possess, "to be equal with God".
    That is why the correct english translation is "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," - BSB, ESV, WEB, NASB, NB
    This agrees with the beginning of the sentence which says "Let this mind be in you"
    Are we humans to think we are equal with God, or not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
    I think the answer is obvious.
    Jesus does not consider himself equal with God.
    Jesus even stated this - John 14:28

    >>>Your conclusion is wrong because you simply assumed the wills are different because they are owned by different persons. Two different persons can have the same will.
    You are speaking from a human standpoint.
    Jesus made this statement showing humility.
    This statement shows humility if you are a servant of a master.
    But when wills are compared from two masters, then there is something different.

    Example: If I'm a worker under a business. And in talking to someone I say, "Not my will but the Owner's will" it denotes humility.
    But if I am co-owner and in talking to someone I say, "Not my will but the Owner's will" it denotes difference.

    Do you really believe Jesus would be sweating blood (extreme stress) over the same will?

    >>>When the Father calls Jesus God, and when the Holy Spirit calls Jesus God, He certainly is God.
    I would like to see these scriptures where the Father called Jesus God, and the Holy Spirit called Jesus God.

    >>>Heb 1:5 - For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
    Notice the words "this day", showing a starting time Jesus became "my Son"
    Notice the word "begotten", shows Jesus was created.
    definition of begotten - past of beget
    beget - bring into existence by the process of reproduction or bring about

    The question I ask you is Jesus God in heaven?
    1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
    This proves Jesus and the Holy Spirit as so-called gods.

    I like speaking with you, because you are a true servant of God, as far as I can see.
    I use to believe as you did.
    But I was able to reason with someone else who opened my eyes to what was clearly printed.
    But I am always open to correction and more learning.

  • SandSand 93 Pts

    There are no direct statements from God to man.
    Throughout the Bible every statement made by God is actually made by an Angel.
    So every reference to Yahweh in the hebrew is an Angel.
    Jesus stated at John 5:37 - "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."
    This proves every reference in the Bible of seeing God was an Angel reprentative.
    Every reference in the Bible of God speaking was an Angel reprentative.
    They also speak as if they are God.

    Think about a CEO of a Business. Bill Gates for example. He built Windows. But did he really build Windows?
    Or was it a very large group of workers who built windows? The answer is obvious, Bill Gates gets the credit for the mind behind the product.
    A king rules over his kingdom, but who enforces laws? Who makes the pronoucements? Who gives the decrees?
    Who actually feeds the people? Every action is an extention of his rulership, so he gets the credit.

    The assumption is that when the Bible says God does something.
    How many things does a CEO or King actually do, let alone a God, when you have access to perhaps a Billion Angels at your disposal.
    And every action of the Angels is glory to you?

    The Angels are called gods and sons of God.
    Psalms 82:1 - "A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:"
    Psalms 82: 6 - "I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High."
    Job 1:6 - "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them."

    So when Jesus was came to earth as a Man.
    With reference to being the Son of God and God.
    We should have knew this reference is the same as the Angels in the Bible.

    Look at Hebrews, the reference used to prove Jesus is better than the Angels.
    Hebrews 1:4 - "having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they."
    Notice it says "as" he has inherited a more excellent name.
    as - used in comparisons to refer to the extent or degree of something.
    So this scripture is saying Jesus is better than the Angels "to the extent" of a more excellent name.
    So Jesus only better because of his name.
    Hebrews also says the reason Jesus was selected.
    Hebrews 1:9 - "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”"
    Notice it says Jesus has "companions". Who is Jesus companions?
    The answer is obvious. Whoever they were they was just a qualified as Jesus.
    But Jesus was different better because he loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.
    Some people reference Jesus being worshiped by the Angels as a reason for him being better than them.
    Lets look at that scripture:
    Hebrews 1:6 - "But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”"
    Worship to Angels is ok when in connection to the Father, this is seen through out the scriptures.
    But worship not in connection to God is to be rejected by Angels.
    Notice that the Angels do not worship without God's command for them to worship Jesus.
    Nevertheless, Jesus rejects worship given apart from God later in the scriptures.

    Please feel free to rebut.
  • SandSand 93 Pts
    I understand.

    Occam's razor essentially states that simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones.
    What is simpler:
    The Father is the True God, and Jesus is an Angel, the things Jesus does have been granted for him to do.
    Or
    The Father is 100% God, and Jesus is 100% God, and the Holy Spirit is 100% God, They are different persons, Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, they are completely different, but they are all one and the same.

    Which concept has more assumptions? Which concept is more complex? Which concept is more Logical?
    The Trinity is an extraordinary claim, and an extraordinary claim needs extraordinary evidence. The Trinity is very, very, very complex. Think about it. If a person claimed to be God. This would be an extraordinary claim, you would need a lot of proof! Why do we not treat Jesus the same way? Especially with him making statements the indicate he is an Angel.

    Like Jesus said he was sent if he is 100% God the better terminology is "came".
    Luke 4:43 - "But he replied, “I must preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God in other towns, too, because that is why I was sent.”"
    Luke 1:19 - "And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news."
    Jesus speaks as an Angel, uses similar terminology as Gabriel.

    Jesus uses other words that do the same things, begotten, ask, will, my God, etc.
    If you are God why compare your will with God? There is no need unless they are different.
    If you are God there is no need to "ask" anybody anything, you are God do what you want!
    Other wordings in the Bible that causes problems like, intercedes, anointed, priest, mediator, appointed, has a head, the doctrine is not his, subjected to God,etc.
    There are too many things that say he is an Angel.
  • @Sand

    Thanks for your responses Sand. I'll post my reply later today.
  • @Sand

    Neither Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit are 1/3 God. Each is fully God 100%. In each person dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead.

    >I need from you a scripture that says the Holy Spirit dwells all fullness of the Godhead. - Should be nowhere in the Bible – Assumption

    Mark 3: 29 – But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

    Acts 10: 19 – While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, “Behold three men seek thee.
    20 – Arise  therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: For I have sent them.

    Acts 13: 2 – As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

    Acts 5: 3 – But Peter said, Ananias, why hast Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and keep back part of the price of the land?
    4 - …Why hast thou conceived this thing in your heart? Thou hast not lied unto to men, but unto God.

    No Sir. The Holy Spirit is called God. As such, He has all the attributes of God.

    >Did Jesus always have the fullness of the Godhead?

    Hebrews 7: 3 – Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, or end of life; but made like unto the son of God, abideth a priest continually.

    Hebrews 13: 8 – Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

    Yes. Jesus does not change in essence. He is immutable.

    >According to the scriptures he did not.
    >Colossians 1:19 - "For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,"
    >This shows that the Godhead was not always on Jesus, only after he pleased the Father.

    It does not show that. First, you have not quoted the whole verse.

    Verse 15 – Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
    Verse 16 – For by Him were ALL things created, that are in Heaven, and in the Earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers: All things were created by Him and for Him.
    17 – And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
    18 – And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the first born from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.
    19 – For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell.

    Second, you misquoted the verse. The verse does not say “…His fullness dwell in Him” You added in the “His” that is not in scripture. Please do not corrupt verses.

    20 – And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in Earth, or in Heaven.

    These verses do not mention “Godhead”. You saw “fullness” here and assumed it was talking about the Godhead because the word “fullness” is also in the other verse. The two passages are talking about different types of “fullness”.

    How is that a lie? Why do you assume that God could not resurrect Himself? Is anything impossible for God?

    >Yes. The scriptures show it is impossible for God to lie or die.
    >Psalms 102:26
    >Habakkuk 1:12 - 
    >Titus 1:2 - 
    >The scriptures completely argue against God dying.

    You have an immature idea of death. What happens to us is not death, it is only a translation. Real death is what is spoken about in Revelation 20.6 and 14. It is called the second death. That is the death God cannot die. Anyway I did not say God died, I said Jesus died.

    >The scriptures say over and over that God resurrected Jesus, not God resurrected himself.

    Jesus is God, and it is clear what He says in John 10:18 - I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

    The bible contradicts you. Jesus says He laid down His life Himself, no one took it from Him, and that He had the power (authority) to “take it again.”

    >I am not arguing against this point. I also agree Jesus layed his life down freely.

    Jesus said He did BOTH Himself. He laid down His life of Himself, and He took it up again Himself. He claimed to have the power to do so. I believe Him.

    >Hebrews 13:20 - "Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,"

    I agree that God raised Jesus from death. Jesus is God. I see no contradiction.

    >So it is an assumption that God can do anything, he cannot lie or die among other things we will not get in to.

    Matthew 19:26 – With God, all things are possible.

    >Nevertheless, my point is Jesus died, God did not. God resurrected Jesus, in other words, God brought Jesus back to life.

    Sorry, that is not what Jesus said Himself. You cannot bend Jesus’ words to fit your doctrine. Your doctrine must bend to accommodate the words of the Master.

    >The fact that Jesus can die shows he is mortal. God is immortal, meaning he cannot die.

    Revelation 1:11 – I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last….
    18 – I am He that liveth, and was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore.

    No disrespect, but I believe Jesus and scripture over your man made doctrine.

    >God can't lay his life down for mankind, because he cannot die.

    You seem to want to believe your man made doctrine over the words of God. You just said you “also agree Jesus laid down His life down freely.” You are contradicting yourself. I know what scripture says, and I believe scripture.

    >That is why he sent his son to die for mankind.

    Isiah 59 16 – And [God] saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor, therefore His arm brought salvation unto Him, and His righteousness, it sustained Him.
    17 – For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon His head.

    God saw that no one else could do it, so He did it Himself.

    >God gave a symbolic drama with Abraham and Isaac.

    >That was the reason he allowed Abraham to be so old before he had Isaac, because he represented God and Isaac represented Jesus.

    Conjecture. No scripture says so.

    >If Jesus was God, then God would request Abraham to sacrifice himself, not his Son.

    Sorry, but that is highly illogical. The sacrifice of Jesus was not God being tested. The sacrifice of Isaac was a test of Abraham.

    >Jesus illustrated his own position also.
    >Matthew 21:33-42 
    >If Jesus was God, the illustration would read differently - The vineyard owner would come himself.

    There are 3 persons in the Godhead. Man is not God, and thus a poor analogy for God.

    >As you can see some people (jesusisGod777) believe Jesus did not really die, only the body.

    I only care for what the Bible says, never for what individuals believe.

    >Which means Jesus was not really resurrected. 

    As that is not my belief, there is no need to debate it.

    How so? Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is God, and the Father is God, But the Father and Jesus are different persons.

    >An assumption not supported by scripture.

    It is taught and supported by scripture in the OT and NT. Jesus is called God, the Father is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God. I have assumed nothing.

    >You cannot be different and the same

    I did not say they were different and the same. Please do not put words in my mouth; I can say what I mean without help. They are 3 persons holding one office. God is not a name, it is a title.

    >If Jesus is 100% God and the Father is 100% God and the Holy Spirit is 100% God, Then that is 300%. You believe in Polytheism.
    100% is absolute, like infinity.

    Infinity added to infinity equals the same infinity. God is infinite. Please educate yourself about infinite sets.

    >Different persons but all God is the definition of Polytheism - the belief in or worship of more than one god.

    Polytheism is the belief that there are multiple Gods. Christianity teaches that there is only one God. I believe there is only one God. The Bible describes Him as a trinity, thus I accept it.

    How so? What lie would that be? God is in control of His power, He can choose not to know something. As the bible tells us, Jesus voluntarily gave up his equality to the Father and submitted Himself to a position lower than Angels in order to save us.

    >This is an assumption. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus choose not to know.

    It doesn’t have to. Jesus said He did not know, yet the bible says Jesus knew all things. The only resolution is that Jesus controls his divine powers, they are not involuntary and automatic.

    >Jesus said "no one knows....nor the Son."
    >You are applying another scripture that you misread.
    Phillippians 2:5-7 - "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
    >Because this is in old english it is easy to misread.
    >The term is "robbery" - Does a robber snatch at what he already has? No. He snatches at what he does not possess.
    >Jesus thought it "not robbery", that is not to snatch at something he did not possess, "to be equal with God".

    You aren’t making sense. Snatching what He did not possess WOULD be robbery, thus Jesus would think it robbery if He was not already divine. But He did not think it would be robbery because it wasn’t.

    >That is why the correct english translation is "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," - BSB, ESV, WEB, NASB, NB

    >This agrees with the beginning of the sentence which says "Let this mind be in you"

    All this verse is saying is that Jesus did not cling to His title and position, but humbled Himself. He was in the “form of God”, and it would not have been immoral to claim deity, but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men, even though He was God.

    >Are we humans to think we are equal with God, or not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

    The message is that Jesus did not cling to power and honor, even when He could have morally done so, and we should have a similar mindset.

    >I think the answer is obvious.

    I think it is too. And my interpretation has many, many verses which verify it. Yours does not.

    >Jesus does not consider himself equal with God.

    Even when it would have been proper for Him to do so because He was “in the form of God”, but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men, even though He was God. He did so for the plan of salvation.

    >Jesus even stated this - John 14:28

    Exactly. For the plan of salvation, Jesus is the Lamb. But after the plan was accomplished, He returned to sit on the right hand of the power of God. Luke 22:69

    Hebrews 1: 3 – When He had Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high.

    To be continued.....
  • ethang5ethang5 171 Pts
    edited September 20
    @Sand

    ....continued:

    Your conclusion is wrong because you simply assumed the wills are different because they are owned by different persons. Two different persons can have the same will.

    >You are speaking from a human standpoint.

    No, I am speaking from the Bible’s standpoint.

    >Jesus made this statement showing humility.
    >This statement shows humility if you are a servant of a master.

    No. It is the high who humble themselves, the low are already humble. The statement shows humility if you are a master.

    >But when wills are compared from two masters, then there is something different.

    Not at all. The difference is not in the wills, but in whose will it is.

    >Example: If I'm a worker under a business. And in talking to someone I say, "Not my will but the Owner's will" it denotes humility.

    So? We agree that Jesus humbled Himself. Humbling means going from a place of high esteem to a place of low esteem. Jesus had to have been highly esteemed to become humble.

    >But if I am co-owner and in talking to someone I say, "Not my will but the Owner's will" it denotes difference.

    Jesus did not call the Father the “owner”. Your analogy is dodgy.

    >Do you really believe Jesus would be sweating blood (extreme stress) over the same will?

    Jesus did not sweat blood. Scripture says His sweat was like bleeding blood. And His stress was due to the unpleasantness of the task ahead, not that their wills were different.

    When the Father calls Jesus God, and when the Holy Spirit calls Jesus God, He certainly is God.

    >I would like to see these scriptures where the Father called Jesus God, and the Holy Spirit called Jesus God.

    Hebrews 1:8 – But unto the son [the Father] saith, That throne, O God, is forever and ever

    Acts 20:28 – Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the chuch of God, which He has purchased with His own blood.

    Heb 1:5 - For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    >Notice the words "this day", showing a starting time Jesus became "my Son"

    No Sir. The verse is saying that NEVER happened.

    >Notice the word "begotten", shows Jesus was created.

    That is not what “begotten” means.

    >beget - bring into existence by the process of reproduction or bring about

    Jesus was not reproduced. Jesus was the express image of God, in the form of God, the physical representation of the Invisible God.

    >The question I ask you is Jesus God in heaven?

    Jesus has always been God, and will always be God, In or out of Heaven.

    >1st Corinthians 8:5, 6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

    >This proves Jesus and the Holy Spirit as so-called gods.

    No it doesn’t. Be very careful that you do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

    >I like speaking with you, because you are a true servant of God, as far as I can see.
    >I use to believe as you did.
    >But I was able to reason with someone else who opened my eyes to what was clearly printed.

    I would call what happened to you something different than eye opening.

    >But I am always open to correction and more learning.

    That is a good way to be.

    >There are no direct statements from God to man.
    >Throughout the Bible every statement made by God is actually made by an Angel.
    So every reference to Yahweh in the hebrew is an Angel.

    >Jesus stated at John 5:37 - "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."

    >This proves every reference in the Bible of seeing God was an Angel reprentative.
    >Every reference in the Bible of God speaking was an Angel reprentative.
    >They also speak as if they are God. 

    You would be wrong even if it were true (it isn't) that every statement made by God was actually made by an Angel.

    Even if every statement in the past made by God was made by an angel, that would not mean that every statement by God had to be made by an angel.

    God made statements to prophets, audibly, and by writing. He spoke to Moses face to face.

    Further, Jesus was speaking only to His disciples at the time, and not referring to the entire world.

    >The assumption is that when the Bible says God does something.
    How many things does a CEO or King actually do, let alone a God, when you have access to perhaps a Billion Angels at your disposal.

    >And every action of the Angels is glory to you?
    The Angels are called gods and sons of God.

    You are putting the cart before the horse. You are expecting God to be like a human CEO, when it is the human CEO who should be modeled after God. The Bible itself does not call angels Gods, but only notes that some do call angels gods. And sons of god has different meanings, which is why Jesus is called the “only begotten” Son of God.

    >The Angels are called gods and sons of God.

    Psalms 82:1 - "A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:"

    Jesus is never judged. He judges. Now let's read the rest of that chapter you left out.

    >Psalms 82: 6 - "I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High."

    Psalms 82: 7 – But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

    Angels do not die. The verse is referring to men. And it is rhetorical.

    >Job 1:6 - "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them."

    In a sense, we are all sons of God. But there is a marked and obvious difference between Jesus and every other “son of God”.
     
    >So when Jesus was came to earth as a Man. With reference to being the Son of God and God.
    We should have knew this reference is the same as the Angels in the Bible.

    Sorry that makes no sense. Jesus accepted worship and claimed to share God’s glory…

    Isaiah 42: 8 – I am the Lord, that is my name, and my glory will I not give to another….
    John 17: 5 – And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Jesus accepted worship, claimed to be able to forgive sins, and have qualities only God has.

    Isaiah 43: 11 – I, even I, am the Lord, and beside me there is no savior.
    Acts 13: 23 – Of this mans seed hath God according to His promise raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus.

    Jesus is God Sand. And you will die in your sins unless you believe Jesus is He.

    The only Savior is God. Even God knows of no other Savior.

    To be continued....
  • @Sand

    .....Continued:

    >Look at Hebrews, the reference used to prove Jesus is better than the Angels.

    >Hebrews 1:4 - "having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they."

    >Notice it says "as" he has inherited a more excellent name.
    as - used in comparisons to refer to the extent or degree of something.

    >So this scripture is saying Jesus is better than the Angels "to the extent" of a more excellent name.

    >So Jesus only better because of his name.

    That is not what the passage says. The point of the passage is to show that Jesus is divine, not just an angel.

    >Hebrews also says the reason Jesus was selected.
    >Hebrews 1:9 - "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    >Notice it says Jesus has "companions". Who is Jesus companions?

    Hebrews 1: 6 – When He bringeth in the first begotten into the world, He saith, let all the angels of God worship Him.

    >The answer is obvious. Whoever they were they was just a qualified as Jesus.

    Then why were they commanded to worship Jesus?

    >But Jesus was different better because he loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.

    All of God’s angels love righteousness and hate lawlessness.

    >Some people reference Jesus being worshiped by the Angels as a reason for him being better than them.

    Not some people, scripture.

    >Lets look at that scripture:
    >Hebrews 1:6 - "But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”"

    >Worship to Angels is ok when in connection to the Father, this is seen through out the scriptures.

    Completely untrue. Angels never accept worship, and Jesus tells us that worship belongs to God only. We are NEVER to direct our worship to anyone but God.

    >But worship not in connection to God is to be rejected by Angels.

    “In connection to God” is your made up criteria. Worship is to be directed only to God.

    >Notice that the Angels do not worship without God's command for them to worship Jesus.

    Scripture does not say that. But it is enough that God commands them to worship.

    >Nevertheless, Jesus rejects worship given apart from God later in the scriptures.

    Untrue. Jesus never rejects worship. And “apart from God” is tautology. Scripture never so qualifies worship.

    >I understand.

    >Occam's razor essentially states that simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones.

    Just so you know, Occam’s razor is illogical nonsense. It is useless when applied to logic.

    >What is simpler:
    >The Father is the True God, and Jesus is an Angel, the things Jesus does have been granted for him to do.

    >Or

    >The Father is 100% God, and Jesus is 100% God, and the Holy Spirit is 100% God, They are different persons, Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, they are completely different, but they are all one and the same.

    I do not believe in what is more simple, I believe what is more true.

    Christian doctrine says they are different persons, not that they are completely different, nor that they are all one and the same, but that they are all one and the same God.

    >Which concept has more assumptions?

    Your Jehovah Witness heresy does.

    >Which concept is more complex?

    The true one.

    >Which concept is more Logical?

    The one spelled out in the Bible.

    >The Trinity is an extraordinary claim, and an extraordinary claim needs extraordinary evidence.

     Sez who? That is another bit of silly nonsense people like to say. Evidence is evidence.

    >The Trinity is very, very, very complex.

    No to me. I find it dazzlingly and beautifully simple. God is complex, and is supposed to be.

    2nd Corinthians 11: 3 – But I fear, least by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through His subtlety, so your mind should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    >Think about it. If a person claimed to be God. This would be an extraordinary claim, you would need a lot of proof! Why do we not treat Jesus the same way?

    Jesus was treated the same way.

    >Especially with him making statements the indicate he is an Angel.

    Jesus made no statements that indicated He was an angel.

    >Like Jesus said he was sent if he is 100% God the better terminology is "came"

    Not if the plan of salvation required a sacrifice to be offered to God.

    >Luke 4:43 - "But he replied, “I must preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God in other towns, too, because that is why I was sent.”

    Exactly.

    >Luke 1:19 - "And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news."

    >Jesus speaks as an Angel, uses similar terminology as Gabriel.

    This is just silly. Satan used similar terminology too. You are reaching illogically.

    >Jesus uses other words that do the same things, begotten, ask, will, my God, etc.

    So does everyone else who speaks. That is the nature and use of language.

    >If you are God why compare your will with God? There is no need unless they are different.

    Jesus did not compare His will to God’s will. You are just trying to bend His words to your man made doctrine. Jesus was on a mission that required certain things. He was also limited because He had to make us believe and understand. He could not just say anything.

    John 11: 42 -  And I knew that thou hearest me always; But because of the people which stand by I said it, that they might believe that thou hast sent me.

    >If you are God there is no need to "ask" anybody anything, you are God do what you want!

    You have totally missed Hebrews and what the plan of salvation is.

    >Other wordings in the Bible that causes problems like, intercedes, anointed, priest, mediator, appointed, has a head, the doctrine is not his, subjected to God,etc.

    Those things cause problems only to people who wish to bend the words to their man made doctrine.

    They cause me no problems at all.

    >There are too many things that say he is an Angel.

    There is nothing that says Jesus is an angel. Jesus is eternal, angels are not. Jesus deserves worship, angels do not. Jesus says all that the Father has is His, angels do not. Everything in existence was made by and for Jesus, this is not true of angels. The bible does not call Jesus an angel, but it does call Him God.

    1st Timothy 3:16 – And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles,believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Jesus is God. The bible says so.

    Sand, you make 3 basic mistakes in considering the Trinity.

    First, you aren’t aware that “God” is a title, not the name of a person.

    The bible says there are 3 that hold that title. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. You can accept or reject it, but you cannot say the Bible doesn’t call Jesus God.

    Second, you seem not to really know God’s plan of salvation, for that plan works only with God Himself as the Saviour. No other way makes sense.

    And finally, I could ask you a series of questions that would show to you that you are wrong because you would not be able to answer the questions, and you would have to either run, dodge, or lie.
  • Good study my friend.

    Iron is sharpening Iron - Proverbs 27:17

     

    You say different types of fullness.

    I used the cross reference information from 12 translation versions. So apparently the translators of these versions felt the term “fullness” did apply to the Godhead. Nevertheless, lets say it did not.

      

    Whatever additional fullness Jesus had he did not have it originally, it was only given to him after he pleased the father.

     

    I do not corrupt scripture and place “His” in the text, I have 6 versions that translate that verse that way. NIV, ISV, NB, HCSB, CSB, NLB

    More than three should be adequate enough.

     

    I asked if you would provide a scripture that the “fullness”dwells in the Holy Spirit. You provided scriptures that do not have the word “fullness”in it at all.

     

    Lets look a few of these scriptures:

     

    >>>Mark 3: 29 – But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

    If you sin against as you say “the office of God” you sin against all three. So based on your understanding of God no one will get salvation.

     

    >>>Acts 5: 3 – But Peter said, Ananias, why hast Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and keep back part of the price of the land?

    4 - …Why hast thou conceived this thing in your heart? Thou hast not lied unto to men, but unto God.

     

    Wouldn’t a sin against anyone be a sin against God?

    I don’t really see a declaration of the Holy Spirit being called God.

     

    The Jews said something simular:

    John 8:39-41 - “They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.””

     

    Do you think the Jews believed Abraham was God?

    From the wording of how you portray the Holy Spirit, they did.

    Nevertheless, this would be wrong just like Acts 5:3 is wrong portrayal of the Holy Spirit being God.

     

    Why is the Holy Spirit used in association with other impersonal things, such as water and fire?

    Matthew 3:11 - “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

    Mark 1:8 - “I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.””

     

    Why is it do you suppose the Holy Spirit is always listed with qualities?

    Acts 6:3 - “Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.”

    Acts 11:24 - “For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.”

    Acts 13:52 - “And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.”

    2 Corinthians 6:6 - “By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,”

     

    Yes the Holy Spirit can speak, but also Wisdom does the same in Proverbs.

     

    Its funny Habakkuk did not reference the second death.

    By inspiration he penned “you will not die”.

    Like you said to me, we should not change the words to bend to our understanding.

    Habakkuk 1:12 - “Are you not from eternity, LORD my God? My Holy One, you will not die. LORD, you appointed them to execute judgment; my Rock, you destined them to punish us.”

     

     

     

     

    >>>Anyway I did not say God died, I said Jesus died.

    Here is the problem.

    Whole vs Part - Reference.

    You said you did not say God died, but Jesus died.

    But according to you Jesus is God.

    According to you reference to the office of God is a reference to Jesus.

    When you say “God”, according to the Trinity, you are referencing the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

     

    To you it should be wrong to say God resurrected Jesus.

    Nevertheless, the scriptures say this.

     

    Hebrews 13:20 - “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

    This proves Jesus is not of the office of God.

    Because if God is an office that consists of three persons, one of those persons is not Jesus. Else wise it would say, “Now the Father of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

    But because it says “God” it references everyone in that office, excluding the one being resurrected. If it included the one being resurrected, it would say, “Now the God of peace, that brought himself  from the dead, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

     

    The scriptures are specific on the one being resurrected.

    Isolating Jesus away from the office of God.

    It seems you are denoting that Jesus resurrected himself by this scripture.

     

    >>>Jesus said He did BOTH Himself. He laid down His life of Himself, and He took it up again Himself. He claimed to have the power to do so. I believe Him.

     

    John 10:17, 18 - “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”

     

    Notice this is a commandment received from the Father.

    The Father commanded Jesus to do so. Master to his servant.

    Jesus shows his submissiveness to his Father, by following God’s command.

    As an Agent of God he took it up, but Jesus speaks in Hyperbole all the time.

    Unless you believe we cannot get life unless we eat his literal flesh and drink his literal blood.

     

    If you believe Jesus raised himself from the dead,then you have misconception of death.

    Psalms 146:4 - “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”

     

    >>>Matthew 19:26 – With God, all things are possible.

    “All things”with the exception of what he can’t do.

    Every all inclusive statement has exceptions. You have to take all scriptures in consideration to get the true picture.

    “All things” except lie, die, be Satan, be unholy, etc.

     

    >>>Sorry, that is not what Jesus said Himself. You cannot bend Jesus’ words to fit your doctrine. Your doctrine must bend to accommodate the words of the Master.

    It is not my doctrine. I quoted scripture.

    (Acts 2:24; Acts 3:15; 1 Corinthians 6:14)

    All say God raised Jesus.

    It accommodates Jesus words, my Master, that he followed the command of his Master.

     

    >>>Revelation 1:11 – I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last….

    18 – I am He that liveth, and was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore.

     

    Where is the word immortal?

    He explains Alpha and Omega in verse 18 dead and alive.

    Which means not immortal.

     

    >>>No disrespect, but I believe Jesus and scripture over your man made doctrine.

    Looking at the words in the Bible only.

     

    >>>You seem to want to believe your man made doctrine over the words of God. You just said you “also agree Jesus laid down His life down freely.”

    You are contradicting yourself. I know what scripture says, and I believe scripture.

    Remember I do not believe Jesus is God.

    Jesus laid down his life freely, following the command of God.

    >>>Isiah 59 16 – And [God] saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor, therefore His arm brought salvation unto Him, and His righteousness, it sustained Him.

    17 – For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon His head.

    >>>God saw that no one else could do it, so He did it Himself.

    Did God speak to Moses?

    Did God deliver Israel?

    Or did God’s agents/representatives do those things, giving credit to God?

    Matthew 21:33-40 -“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

    Jesus illustrated that God did not come himself

    You have to take both scriptures in consideration.

     

    >>>There are 3 persons in the Godhead. Man is not God, and thus a poor analogy for God.

    This is the analogy Jesus gave, strong words to call the Master’s words poor.

     

     

    I did not say they were different and the same. Please do not put words in my mouth; I can say what I mean without help. They are 3 persons holding one office. God is not a name, it is a title.

    >If Jesus is 100% God and the Father is 100% God and the Holy Spirit is 100% God, Then that is 300%. You believe in Polytheism.

    >>>100% is absolute, like infinity.
    Infinity added to infinity equals the same infinity. God is infinite. Please educate yourself about infinite sets.

     

    Infinity has no total, it means limitless

    Absolute is not limitless, it means total.

    You cannot have an infinite absolute.

    Infinity - “he state or quality of being infinite.”

    Infinite - “limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.”

    Absolute - “not qualified or diminished in any way; total.”

     

    If God is an office. Then they are God collectively.

    Meaning one cannot be referenced as God outside of one another.

    Which is clearly done in the scriptures over and over.

    Hebrews 13:20 - “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

     

    If Jesus can be referenced as God apart from the Father

    And they each can be referenced as God apart from one another.

    Then you believe in multiple Gods.

    Multiple - “having or involving several parts, elements, or members.”

     

    >>>I believe there is only one God. The Bible describes Him as a trinity, thus I accept it.

    No disrespect, but the Trinity is put together through deductive reasoning. The Bible does not describe him as a Trinity.

     

    If you believe in one God then you should know that Jesus cannot be referenced as God apart from the Father. Which the scriptures clearly do.

    Proving Jesus is not God.

     

    >>>How so? What lie would that be? God is in control of His power, He can choose not to know something. As the bible tells us, Jesus voluntarily gave up his equality to the Father and submitted Himself to a position lower than Angels in order to save us.

     

    This statement is completely off.

    There is a huge difference from choosing not to know and not knowing.

    The word “choosing” is not in these scriptures.

    It is not even implied.

    Jesus did voluntarily give up his position, which was not equal with the Father, but it says nothing about knowledge.

     

    That is what you call an assumption.

     

    >>>It doesn’t have to. Jesus said He did not know, yet the bible says Jesus knew all things.

    I need a scripture that says Jesus knows all things.

     

    >Jesus said "no one knows....nor the Son."

    >You are applying another scripture that you misread.

    Phillippians 2:5-7 - "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

     

    The Greek word is Harpagmos - means snatching, pillaging, grabbing.

       

    >>>You aren’t making sense. Snatching what He did not possess WOULD be robbery, thus Jesus would think it robbery if He was not already divine. But He did not think it would be robbery because it wasn’t.

    You are almost there.

    Read these books:

    J. C. O'Neill, "Hoover on Harpagmos Reviewed”

    C. A. Wanamaker, "Philippians 2.6-11: Son of God or Adamic Christology?"

     

    Read the Books then comment on that verse

     

    >>>Jesus did not call the Father the “owner”. Your analogy is dodgy.

     

    Matthew 21:33 - “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.”

     

     

    >Do you really believe Jesus would be sweating blood (extreme stress) over the same will?

    Jesus did not sweat blood. Scripture says His sweat was like bleeding blood. And His stress was due to the unpleasantness of the task ahead, not that their wills were different.

     

    When the Father calls Jesus God, and when the Holy Spirit calls Jesus God, He certainly is God.

    Jesus is a so-called God.

    1 Corinthians 8:5 - “For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),”

    Jesus has the title, but he is not the True God.

    There is only one True God, the Father.

     

     

    Acts 20:28 – Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the chuch of God, which He has purchased with His own blood.

    Heb 1:5 - For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    >Notice the words "this day", showing a starting time Jesus became "my Son"

    No Sir. The verse is saying that NEVER happened.

    >Notice the word "begotten", shows Jesus was created.

     

    >>>That is not what “begotten” means.

    Begotten - “past participle of beget.”

    Beget - bring into existence by the process of reproduction or bring about

     

    As you said to me, do not bring your man made doctrine to bend the scriptures.

    When the scriptures say begotten - it means creation.

     

    >>>Jesus was not reproduced. Jesus was the express image of God, in the form of God, the physical representation of the Invisible God.

    Man is a creation and Image of God - 1 Corinthians 11:7 - “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.”

    Jesus is a creation and Image of God

     

    >>>Jesus has always been God, and will always be God, In or out of Heaven.

    1st Corinthians 8:5, 6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

    .

     

    >>>No it doesn’t. Be very careful that you do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

    Yes it does. It separates the office of God from everyone with the title “God” with one exception the Father.

     

     

    >I like speaking with you, because you are a true servant of God, as far as I can see.

    >I use to believe as you did.

    >But I was able to reason with someone else who opened my eyes to what was clearly printed.

    I would call what happened to you something different than eye opening.

    >But I am always open to correction and more learning.

    That is a good way to be.

     

    >There are no direct statements from God to man.

    >Throughout the Bible every statement made by God is actually made by an Angel.

    So every reference to Yahweh in the hebrew is an Angel.

    >Jesus stated at John 5:37 - "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form."

    >This proves every reference in the Bible of seeing God was an Angel reprentative.

    >Every reference in the Bible of God speaking was an Angel reprentative.

    >They also speak as if they are God. 

     

    You would be wrong even if it were true (it isn't) that every statement made by God was actually made by an Angel.

    Even if every statement in the past made by God was made by an angel, that would not mean that every statement by God had to be made by an angel.

    >>>God made statements to prophets, audibly, and by writing. He spoke to Moses face to face.

     

     

     

    Further, Jesus was speaking only to His disciples at the time, and not referring to the entire world.

     

    >The assumption is that when the Bible says God does something.

    How many things does a CEO or King actually do, let alone a God, when you have access to perhaps a Billion Angels at your disposal.

    >And every action of the Angels is glory to you?

    The Angels are called gods and sons of God.

     

    You are putting the cart before the horse. You are expecting God to be like a human CEO, when it is the human CEO who should be modeled after God. The Bible itself does not call angels Gods, but only notes that some do call angels gods.

     

    >>>And sons of god has different meanings, which is why Jesus is called the “only begotten” Son of God.

    Once again only begotten
    Meaning directly created.

     

     

     

    >>>>Psalms 82: 7 – But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

    >>>Angels do not die. The verse is referring to men. And it is rhetorical.

    The ones who disobeyed will die in the second death.

     

    >>>In a sense, we are all sons of God. But there is a marked and obvious difference between Jesus and every other “son of God”.

    It is because we were all created.

     

    >>>Sorry that makes no sense. Jesus accepted worship and claimed to share God’s glory…

    Jesus gave the glory God gave to his disciples.

    John 17:22 - “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:”

     

    >>>Jesus accepted worship, claimed to be able to forgive sins, and have qualities only God has.

     

    So did the Angel at the burning of the Bush.

    Isaiah 63:8 ,9 - “In all their affliction He was afflicted,
    And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
    In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
    And He bore them and carried them
    All the days of old.”

     

    Angel is the Agent of God’s Presence

    Jesus is the Agent of God’s Presence

     

    Now you are doing deductive reasoning.

     

     

    >>>All of God’s angels love righteousness and hate lawlessness.

    Not as much as Jesus

     

    >Some people reference Jesus being worshiped by the Angels as a reason for him being better than them.

    Not some people, scripture.

     

    >Lets look at that scripture:

    >Hebrews 1:6 - "But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”"

    >Worship to Angels is ok when in connection to the Father, this is seen through out the scriptures.

    Completely untrue.

     

    >>>Angels never accept worship, and Jesus tells us that worship belongs to God only. We are NEVER to direct our worship to anyone but God.

     

    Moses worshiped God through his representative.

     

    Exodus 3:2-6 - "And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Exodus 3:14 - "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”"

     

    According to these scriptures the Angel is saying he is Yahweh.

    The famous “I AM WHO I AM”.

     

    Yahweh himself said,

    Isaiah 63:8 ,9 - “In all their affliction He was afflicted,
    And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
    In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
    And He bore them and carried them
    All the days of old.”

     

    It was Yahweh represented through an Angel.

     

     

    >>>Untrue. Jesus never rejects worship. And “apart from God” is tautology. Scripture never so qualifies worship.

     

    Jesus is telling John not to worship him.

    Revelation 22:8,9 - “Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

    Notice verse 10, “And he said to me”indicating he was still speaking, and this Angel finishes the remaining statements.

    The Angel then says in Revelation 22:16 “I Jesus”.

     

     

    Jesus as an Angel rejects John’s worship.

     

     

    Revelation 22:8-17 - “Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”

     

    >>>1st Timothy 3:16 – And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles,believed on in the world, received up into glory.

     

    That is an altered text.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Historical_Account_of_Two_Notable_Corruptions_of_Scripture

     

    You were awesome!

    Lets keep going, you taught me a lot. I was stood corrected on a lot of scriptures. Which shows big room for growth.

    I can see both viewpoints.

    I feel refined in my viewpoint, yet resolute in my position.






  • >>>There is nothing that says Jesus is an angel.

    Revelation 22:8-17 - Jesus calls himself the Mourning Star (which is an angel)

    Need more identification? 1 Thessalonians 4:16 shows Jesus using the voice of an Archangel. If you are calling the dead, wouldn’t you want to use the strongest voice? Why would Jesus use the voice of an Archangel? Wouldn’t the Archangel’s voice be lesser than God’s? Why not use his own voice, the voice of God? Unless……..his own voice is the Archangel, because he is an Angel.

    >>>Jesus is eternal, angels are not.
    Terms applied to Jesus.

    Only Begotten
    Begotten - “past participle of beget.”
    Beget - bring into existence by the process of reproduction or bring about

    Creation
    Revelation 3:14 - "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
    He is a creation, meaning he was created.

    Firstborn of every creature
    Firstborn - a person's first child

    All these terms mean Jesus had a beginning.

    >>>Jesus deserves worship, angels do not.
    You cannot say that Moses did not worship the angel.

    >>>Jesus says all that the Father has is His, angels do not.
    It was "given" to him, "granted", meaning he did not have it at all times.

    >>>Everything in existence was made by and for Jesus, this is not true of angels.
    The Bible uses the word "through" meaning he is not the source of the power.
    He was a conduit. Just like God created us "through" Adam.
    Interestingly Jesus is called the "last Adam".

    >>>The bible does not call Jesus an angel, but it does call Him God.
    I already showed you where the Angels is called "Gods".
    You claim it was men, but how do men "die like men"
    That shows it was comparing something else - an Angel.

    Nevertheless, Moses called an Angel, God. Exodus 3:14
    Abraham called an Angel, God. Genesis 18:22
    MaNoah called an Angel, God. Judges 13:22
    Jacob called an Angel, God. Genesis 32:30
    Sarah called an Angel, God. Genesis 6:13
    The Angel calls himself, God. Genesis 22:16; Genesis 31:13;
    Gideon called an Angel, God. Judges 6:14
    I can go on and on.
    Too many references of Angels being called God.

    >>>Jesus is God. The bible says so.
    Yes but it also calls him a "so-called god".

    >>>First, you aren’t aware that “God” is a title, not the name of a person.
    I just showed you proof I am aware of this.

    >>>The bible says there are 3 that hold that title. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. You can accept or reject it, but you cannot say the Bible doesn’t call Jesus God.
    You cannot say the Angel in Revelation doesn't call himself Jesus.

    >>>Second, you seem not to really know God’s plan of salvation, for that plan works only with God Himself as the Saviour. No other way makes sense.
    Isaiah 63:8,9
    It worked just fine through out the scriptures when the Angels delivered Israel.
    They still gave the credit to the Father, with the term "Angel of his presence".
    I makes perfect sense, just a teaching in the Bible that is not accepted by Trinitarians. 

    >>>And finally, I could ask you a series of questions that would show to you that you are wrong because you would not be able to answer the questions, and you would have to either run, dodge, or lie.
    Please ask me the questions. You may consider them a lie, because you will not like the answers, but all my answers will be Bible based.


    Deuteronomy 32:39 - "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
    Meaning there is no office, no group, but only one and no one else.
    Deuteronomy 4:35 - "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
    Even Jesus agreed with the same thing.
    Typically Jesus would correct any wrong thinking, especially and opportunity to show three in one, but Jesus did not do it.
    Thus proving the opposite no office, no group, but only one and no one else.
    Mark 12:32-34 - " And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question."

    Have you ever seen Jesus agree with a scribe? Especial on the essence of God?

    Jesus coined the statement "Only True God", and separated himself from that title.
    He applied the statement "my God" to only the father, where he compared himself to a human in spirit form.

    I am sorry to burst your bubble, Jesus is not God.
    ethang5
  • @Sand

    >Good study my friend.

    >Iron is sharpening Iron - Proverbs 27:17

    >You say different types of fullness.

    No Sir. Please stay honest. We were talking about the Godhead dwelling fully in Jesus. I did not say different types of fullness.

    >I used the cross reference information from 12 translation versions. So apparently the translators of these versions felt the term “fullness” did apply to the Godhead. Nevertheless, lets say it did not.

    I did not say that “fullness” did not apply to the Godhead.

    >Whatever additional fullness Jesus had he did not have it originally, it was only given to him after he pleased the father.

    No Sir. That is your assumption added to scripture. And that is why you originally changed the verse. The verse says it pleased the Father that in Jesus should fullness dwell, it says nothing about when Jesus got this fullness, or if He was ever without it.

    >I do not corrupt scripture and place “His” in the text, I have 6 versions that translate that verse that way. NIV, ISV, NB, HCSB, CSB, NLB

    >More than three should be adequate enough.

    Your translation still says nothing about when Jesus got this fullness, or if He was ever without it, you assume this so that it fits your man made doctrine. It pleased the Father, and God is immutable.

    >I asked if you would provide a scripture that the “fullness”dwells in the Holy Spirit. You provided scriptures that do not have the word “fullness”in it at all.

    So unless the actual word is in the verse, it cannot be talking about fullness? The “fullness” we are talking about is the fullness of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is fully God, and several verses call Him God, using the exact word. The Holy Spirit calls Himself God, and the Apostles call Him God. That is good enough for me.

    >Lets look a few of these scriptures:
    >Mark 3: 29 – But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

    >If you sin against as you say “the office of God” you sin against all three. So based on your understanding of God no one will get salvation.

    I said nothing about sinning against the “office of God”. I said sin against the Holy Spirit. And my understanding is that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father or the Son. That is why the sin must be specifically against the person of the Holy Spirit.

    Do you not think it inconsistent that you believe sin against God is forgivable, but sin against a created thing is not?

    Acts 5: 3 – But Peter said, Ananias, why hast Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and keep back part of the price of the land?
    4 - …Why hast thou conceived this thing in your heart? Thou hast not lied unto to men, but unto God.

    >Wouldn’t a sin against anyone be a sin against God?

    What do you think Peter meant here? Why did Peter not strike dead all the other people who lied to him? Why was Peter himself not struck dead when he lied and denied Jesus? Peter says here, “Ananias, why hast Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost? Thou hast not lied unto to men, but unto God.”

     >I don’t really see a declaration of the Holy Spirit being called God.

    That’s ok. I see it.

    >The Jews said something simular:

    John 8:39-41 - “They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”

    >Do you think the Jews believed Abraham was God?

    I don’t. And neither did Jesus.

    >From the wording of how you portray the Holy Spirit, they did.

    No Sir. It isn’t my wording. It is scripture. Those are Peter’s words, and I accept them.

    >Nevertheless, this would be wrong just like Acts 5:3 is wrong portrayal of the Holy Spirit being God.

    The Holy Spirit is called God, the attributes of God are His attributes, He commands Christians and speaks of God’s work as His work. It is wrong to doubt that the Holy Spirit is God.

    >Why is the Holy Spirit used in association with other impersonal things, such as water and fire?

    Because it helps us understand His work and His role in the plan of salvation. Both the Father and the Son are also used in association with other impersonal things. You place emphasis on this because you want it to support your man made doctrine.

    Matthew 3:11 - “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

    Mark 1:8 - “I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

    >Why is it do you suppose the Holy Spirit is always listed with qualities?

    The Holy Spirit is not ALWAYS listed with qualities. And even if He was, it would not mean He was not God. The Father’s qualities are also often listed. That is normal and expected.

    Acts 6:3 - “Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.”

    Acts 11:24 - “For he was a good an, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.”
    Acts 13:52 - “And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.”
    2 Corinthians 6:6 - “By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,”

    None of these verses say or imply that the Holy Spirit is not God. In fact, these verses argue the opposite for I can find verses talking about both Jesus and the Father attached to the same qualities.

     >Yes the Holy Spirit can speak, but also Wisdom does the same in Proverbs.

    Wisdom never sends people to go find a specific person, or to refrain from preaching in a certain place for a certain time. Those verses are clearly anthropomorphisms, and the bible never calls wisdom, God.

    >Its funny Habakkuk did not reference the second death.

    Because revelation is given in stages. i.e. John knew more than Abraham, and Abraham knew more than Job.

    >By inspiration he penned “you will not die”.

    He was talking about God, and we already agreed that God did not die.

    >Like you said to me, we should not change the words to bend to our understanding.

    How have I changed the words?

    >Habakkuk 1:12 - “Are you not from eternity, LORD my God? My Holy One, you will not die. LORD, you appointed them to execute judgment; my Rock, you destined them to punish us.”

    Anyway scripture did not say God died, it said Jesus died.

    >Here is the problem.
    >Whole vs Part - Reference. You said you did not say God died, but Jesus died. But according to you Jesus is God.

    So is the Father, and so is the Holy Spirit. According to scripture.

    >According to you reference to the office of God is a reference to Jesus.

    Not always. I can refer to God, or I can refer to a specific person in the Godhead.

    >When you say “God”, according to the Trinity, you are referencing the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

    I am referencing the office, held by three persons. Do confuse yourself.

    >To you it should be wrong to say God resurrected Jesus.

    Not at all. I accept whatever the bible says. And I know what the bible says.

    >Nevertheless, the scriptures say this.

    Hebrews 13:20 - “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

    >This proves Jesus is not of the office of God.

    That is your man made doctrine that cannot trump scripture that calls Jesus God, calls Jesus the creator of ALL creation, and records Jesus Himself saying He Himself took His life back up again. I fail to see any contradiction except that it debunks your man made doctrine that Jesus is not God.

    >Because if God is an office that consists of three persons, one of those persons is not Jesus. Else wise it would say, “Now the Father of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

    No Sir. You are going into error because you have disregarded other verses. The Bible says that each person of the Godhead is fully God, thus, the verse is completely correct to say, “…the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus…” 

    >But because it says “God” it references everyone in that office, excluding the one being resurrected.

    That again is your man made doctrine trying to bend scripture to its error. It references everyone in that office, including the one being resurrected.

    >If it included the one being resurrected, it would say, “Now the God of peace, that brought himself  from the dead, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

    Well, I’m sorry that the Bible didn’t write the way your man made doctrine would have liked, but God needed to make us understand, and we were slow and lacking understanding. But basically, that is what Jesus did say. He said He brought Himself back from the dead. I again fail to see your argument.

    >The scriptures are specific on the one being resurrected.

    We agree on that.

    >Isolating Jesus away from the office of God.

    Sorry, but that is just your man made doctrine, not scripture. Jesus is not isolated.

    >It seems you are denoting that Jesus resurrected himself by this scripture.

    That is what Jesus said Himself. Jesus said He did BOTH Himself. He laid down His life of Himself, and He took it up again Himself. He claimed to have the power to do so. I believe Him.

    John 10:17, 18 - “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”

    >Notice this is a commandment received from the Father.

    That does not change the fact that He said He did it Himself.

    >The Father commanded Jesus to do so. Master to his servant.

    Still, Jesus did so. The Bible says that Jesus took the role of a lowly servant for the plan of salvation. Verses mean things, and if you change one, you fall into error.

    >Jesus shows his submissiveness to his Father, by following God’s command.

    Of course, Jesus said He always did what pleased the Father, and the Father always pleased the Son.

    >As an Agent of God he took it up, but Jesus speaks in Hyperbole all the time.

    John 10:18 is not hyperbole.

    >Unless you believe we cannot get life unless we eat his literal flesh and drink his literal blood.

    Jesus was being symbolic, that was not hyperbole. Perhaps you don’t know what hyperbole means?
    Neopesdom
  • ethang5ethang5 171 Pts
    edited September 30
    @Sand

    >If you believe Jesus raised himself from the dead, then you have misconception of death.

    Psalms 146:4 - “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”

    Real death is what is spoken about in Revelation 20.6 and 14. Sorry, I see no contradiction.

    Matthew 19:26 – With God, all things are possible.

    >“All things”with the exception of what he can’t do.

    The verse has no qualifications.

    >Every all inclusive statement has exceptions. You have to take all scriptures in consideration to get the true picture.

    True, but you seem to be disregarding scripture that debunks your man made doctrine.

    >“All things” except lie, die, be Satan, be unholy, etc.

    As long as you agree that the added stuff is your doctrine and not scripture.

    Sorry, that is not what Jesus said Himself. You cannot bend Jesus’ words to fit your doctrine. Your doctrine must bend to accommodate the words of the Master.

    >It is not my doctrine. I quoted scripture.

    Where is the verse that says God cannot be Satan?

    (Acts 2:24; Acts 3:15; 1 Corinthians 6:14)

    >All say God raised Jesus.

    I agree.

    >It accommodates Jesus words, my Master, that he followed the command of his Master.

    Read Hebrews again, it will help you to understand the plan of salvation and the roles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the plan. After the plan was accomplished, Jesus resumed His position in the Godhead, at the right hand of power.

    Revelation 1:11 – I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last….
    18 – I am He that liveth, and was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore.

    >Where is the word immortal?

    “Alive for evermore” means the same thing.

    >He explains Alpha and Omega in verse 18 dead and alive.

    The Alpha and Omega is God.

    >Which means not immortal.

    The Bible calls Jesus Immortal, having no beginning or end. Was it not you who said we need to take all the pertinent verses? No disrespect, but I believe Jesus and scripture over your man made doctrine.

    >Looking at the words in the Bible only..“Not Immortal” is not in those verses.

    You seem to want to believe your man made doctrine over the words of God. You just said you “also agree Jesus laid down His life down freely. You are contradicting yourself. I know what scripture says, and I believe scripture.

    >Remember I do not believe Jesus is God.

    That is why you are trying to change John 10:18. Sorry, the scripture trumps any man made doctrine.

    >Jesus laid down his life freely, following the command of God.

    No one can be “commanded” to freely do something. But our disagreement is whether Jesus picked up His life again by Himself, and He said He did.

    Isiah 59 16 – And [God] saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor, therefore His arm brought salvation unto Him, and His righteousness, it sustained Him.
    17 – For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon His head.

    God saw that no one else could do it, so He did it Himself.

    >Did God speak to Moses?

    Sure He did.

    >Did God deliver Israel?

    Yes absolutely. He said so.

    >Or did God’s agents/representatives do those things, giving credit to God?

    Read your bible. God did those things.

    Matthew 21:33-40 -“Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

    >Jesus illustrated that God did not come himself

    Who do you think the  owner of the vineyard is? And when He comes….?

    >You have to take both scriptures in consideration.

    There are 3 persons in the Godhead. Man is not God, and thus a poor analogy for God.

    >This is the analogy Jesus gave, strong words to call the Master’s words poor.

    I called your words poor.

    I did not say they were different and the same. Please do not put words in my mouth; I can say what I mean without help. There are 3 persons holding one office. God is not a name, it is a title.

    >If Jesus is 100% God and the Father is 100% God and the Holy Spirit is 100% God, Then that is 300%. You believe in Polytheism.

    100% is absolute, like infinity. Infinity added to infinity equals the same infinity. God is infinite. Please educate yourself about infinite sets.

    >Infinity has no total, it means limitless

    Infinity does not mean limitless. But infinity plus infinity equals the same infinity, not a bigger infinity.

    >Absolute is not limitless, it means total.

    Words can have more than one meaning. And I did not say absolute was limitless. You did. Please stop pretending your comments are mine.

    >You cannot have an infinite absolute.

    I don’t see why not.

    >Infinity - “The state or quality of being infinite.”
    Infinite - “limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.”

    Infinite and infinity are different words.

    >Absolute - “not qualified or diminished in any way; total.”

    I only see the contradiction to your poor skills at adding infinity.

    >If God is an office. Then they are God collectively.

    You think this because you refuse to take the verse saying that In Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Each person of the godhead is 100% God, not 1/3 God. Each of them is FULLY God. But if you refuse verses, you will have error. They are not “collectively” God.

    >Meaning one cannot be referenced as God outside of one another.

    That would be true if I took your man made doctrine, which is what you want me to do. Sorry, I prefer scripture.

    >Which is clearly done in the scriptures over and over.

    Because in each of them dwells the fullness of the Godhead.

    >Hebrews 13:20 - “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,”

    >If Jesus can be referenced as God apart from the Father, And they each can be referenced as God apart from one another. Then you believe in multiple Gods.

    There is only one office Sand. God is the office, each person in the Godhead has a name, and it isn’t “God”. The problem is caused by your man made doctrine, it isn’t in scripture.

    >Multiple - “having or involving several parts, elements, or members.”

    Multiple persons, not multiple Gods. I believe there is only one God. The Bible describes Him as a trinity, thus I accept it.

    >No disrespect, but the Trinity is put together through deductive reasoning. The Bible does not describe him as a Trinity.

    Sure it does. And it’s more than deductive reasoning, it’s just logic. As God says, “Come let us reason together….” There is nothing wrong with using reason.

    >If you believe in one God then you should know that Jesus cannot be referenced as God apart from the Father. Which the scriptures clearly do.

    Each of them can if in each of them dwells the fullness of the Godhead. Do you know why the word “Godhead” was used?

    >Proving Jesus is not God.

    Sorry, the only thing that proves is that you have been led into error by the Jehovah Witnesses.
    Neopesdom
  • @Sand

    How so? What lie would that be? God is in control of His power, He can choose not to know something. As the bible tells us, Jesus voluntarily gave up his equality to the Father and submitted Himself to a position lower than Angels in order to save us.

    >This statement is completely off. There is a huge difference from choosing not to know and not knowing.

    I agree.

    >The word “choosing” is not in these scriptures. It is not even implied.

    But the idea of Jesus not holding on to the attributes of God and voluntarily giving up authority is there.

    >Jesus did voluntarily give up his position, which was not equal with the Father, but it says nothing about knowledge.

    It doesn’t have to. God is the source of ALL wisdom and knowledge.

    >That is what you call an assumption.

    Only if you need to believe something opposite of what scripture says. No assumption here. Jesus said He did not know, yet the bible says Jesus knew all things.

    >I need a scripture that says Jesus knows all things.

    John 18:4

    >Jesus said "no one knows....nor the Son."

    He was telling the truth. As always.

    >You are applying another scripture that you misread.

    Phillippians 2:5-7 - "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

    >The Greek word is Harpagmos - means snatching, pillaging, grabbing.

    You aren’t making sense. Snatching what He did not possess WOULD be robbery, thus Jesus would think it robbery if He was not already divine. But He did not think it would be robbery because it wasn’t.

    >You are almost there. Read these books:
    >J. C. O'Neill, "Hoover on Harpagmos Reviewed”
    >C. A. Wanamaker, "Philippians 2.6-11: Son of God or Adamic Christology?"

    >Read the Books then comment on that verse

    Sorry. I read the Bible. Nothing will make me doubt it.

    Jesus did not call the Father the “owner”. Your analogy is dodgy.

    >Matthew 21:33 - “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.”

    The son is inheritor of all the Father has. Thus the son is the landowner. Your analogy to the parable is dodgy.

    >Do you really believe Jesus would be sweating blood (extreme stress) over the same will?

    Jesus did not sweat blood. Scripture says His sweat was like bleeding blood. And His stress was due to the unpleasantness of the task ahead, not that  wills were different.

    When the Father calls Jesus God, and when the Holy Spirit calls Jesus God, He certainly is God.

    >Jesus is a so-called God.

    1 Corinthians 8:5 - “For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),”

    This means there are so called gods, not that Jesus is one of them.

    >Jesus has the title, but he is not the True God.

    Only god has the title.

    >There is only one True God, the Father.

    And the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    >Acts 20:28 – Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood.

    Which God is it that purchased the Church with His own blood?

    >Heb 1:5 - For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    >Notice the words "this day", showing a starting time Jesus became "my Son"

    You are confused. This verse is saying God DID NOT at any time say to any angel, “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. No Sir. The verse is saying that NEVER happened.

    >Notice the word "begotten", shows Jesus was created.

    Untrue. That is not what “begotten” means.
    >Begotten - “past participle of beget.”
    >Beget - bring into existence by the process of reproduction or bring about
    >As you said to me, do not bring your man made doctrine to bend the scriptures.

    You are not quoting scripture Sand, you are quoting the dictionary.

    >When the scriptures say begotten - it means creation.

    No Sir. Scripture calls Jesus the ONLY begotten.

    Hebrews 7:3 – Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days or end of life; But made like unto the son of God, abideth a priest continually.

    Jesus was not reproduced. Jesus was the express image of God, in the form of God, the physical representation of the Invisible God.

    >Man is a creation and Image of God - 1 Corinthians 11:7 - “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.”

    Jesus is the express image of God, the physical representation of God. Man is not.

    >Jesus is a creation and Image of God

    In your man made doctrine, but not in Scripture.

    Jesus has always been God, and will always be God, In or out of Heaven.

    1st Corinthians 8:5, 6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."

    I don’t know what you think this verse means, but it certainly isn’t that Jesus is a so called God.

    No it doesn’t. Be very careful that you do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

    >Yes it does. It separates the office of God from everyone with the title “God” with one exception the Father.

    Your man made doctrine says that, not scripture. It is God Himself giving the title to Jesus. "So called" refers to others calling things god.

    >There are no direct statements from God to man. Throughout the Bible every statement made by God is actually made by an Angel. So every reference to Yahweh in the hebrew is an Angel.

    Simply untrue. And if it was, it still would not mean Jesus was an angel.

    >Jesus stated at John 5:37 - "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

    >This proves every reference in the Bible of seeing God was an Angel reprentative.

    Silly. Jesus was speaking to specific people who this was true about. You want to make it universal only because it would fit your man made doctrine.

    >Every reference in the Bible of God speaking was an Angel reprentative. They also speak as if they are God.

    Untrue. You just gave a reference in Revelation where an angel spoke as a servant. You would still be wrong even if it were true (it isn't) that every statement made by God was actually made by an Angel.

    Even if every statement in the past made by God was made by an angel, that would not mean that every statement by God had to be made by an angel. God made statements to prophets, audibly, and by writing. He spoke to Moses face to face. Further, Jesus was speaking only to His disciples at the time, and not referring to the entire world.

    >The assumption is that when the Bible says God does something.

    The assumption is yours. I see no logical reason for it as it isn't in scripture.
    Neopesdom
  • @Sand

    >am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

    1st Timothy 3:16 – And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles,believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    >That is an altered text.

    >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Historical_Account_of_Two_Notable_Corruptions_of_Scripture

    That is an unsubstantiated claim of alteration.

    >Lets keep going, you taught me a lot. I was stood corrected on a lot of scriptures. Which shows big room for growth.

    It also shows how much in error you are.

    There is nothing that says Jesus is an angel 

    Revelation 22:8-17 - Jesus calls himself the Mourning Star (which is an angel)

    Jesus is called the Morning Star in the OT. It is not an angel. He is called the Morning Star because He is bright enough to shine even when the sun is out. The only star that can do so.

    >Need more identification?

    Even one would help your case.

    >1 Thessalonians 4:16 shows Jesus using the voice of an Archangel. If you are calling the dead, wouldn’t you want to use the strongest voice? Why would Jesus use the voice of an Archangel? Wouldn’t the Archangel’s voice be lesser than God’s? Why not use his own voice, the voice of God? Unless……..his own voice is the Archangel, because he is an Angel.

    Man made conjecture bending scripture to fit your man made doctrine.

    Jesus is eternal, angels are not.

    >Terms applied to Jesus.
    Only Begotten

    Yes, and you still have not explained how come Jesus is called the "ONLY" if begotten means created, and we were all created. Are we not all begotten then?

    Revelation 3:14 - "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"

    >He is a creation, meaning he was created.

    That is your man made doctrine that contradicts the verses that say Jesus, like the Father, had no beginning. Jesus was the first Son of many sons.

    >Firstborn of every creature

    >Firstborn - a person's first child

    >All these terms mean Jesus had a beginning.

    No sir. It just means Jesus was the first man to die for sins and the first to resurrect a new man, the first of all newly created men, born again  from water and the Sprit.

    Jesus deserves worship, angels do not.

    >You cannot say that Moses did not worship the angel

    Sure I can. He didn't.

    Jesus says all that the Father has
     is His, angels do not.

    >It was "given" to him, "granted", meaning he did not have it at all times.

    Untrue. Verse please.

    >Everything in existence was made by and for Jesus, this is not true of angels.

    The Bible uses the word "through" meaning he is not the source of the power.

    Untrue. The bible says Jesus sits at the right hand of power. Do you know what the "right hand of power" means? Hint: It isn't that power is to the left of Jesus.

    >He was a conduit. Just like God created us "through" Adam.
    Interestingly Jesus is called the "last Adam".

    Untrue. The bible says all things were made BY Him, and nothing exists that was not made by Him.

    The bible does not call Jesus an angel, but it does call Him God.

    >I already showed you where the Angels is called "Gods".

    And Jesus was called a lunatic. So what?

    >You claim it was men, but how do men "die like men"

    The verse is God showing haughty men that they were NOT gods because they would die like men.

    >That shows it was comparing something else - an Angel.

    Jesus said angels do not die. You cannot simply throw away the verses that debunk your man made doctrine.

    >Nevertheless, Moses called an Angel, God. Exodus 3:14

    He did not.

    >Abraham called an Angel god.

    He did not.

    >Noah called an Angel, God. Judges 13:22

    He did not.

    >Jacob called an Angel, God. Genesis 32:30

    He did not.

    >Sarah called an Angel, God.
    Genesis 6:13

    That was not an Angel.

    >The Angel calls himself, God. Genesis 22:16;

    He did not.

    >Genesis 31:13; Gideon called an Angel, God. Judges 6:14

    He did not.

    >I can go on and on.

    With silly errors obviously.

    >Too many references of Angels being called God.

    Some mistook angels for God, but were corrected, none called the  angels God.

    Even Baal is called a god by some men. So what?

    Jesus is God. The bible says so.

    >Yes but it also calls him a "so-called god".

    That is a lie. The Father calls Jesus God. Are the Father's words "so called"? It is YOU calling Jesus a "so called god", not scripture.

    First, you aren’t aware that “God” is a title, not the name of a person.

    >I just showed you proof I am aware of this.

    Yet a little ways down you claim there is no office of God. God is a title, not a name. Are you aware that the persons in the trinity have names?

    The bible says there are 3 that hold that title. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. You can accept or reject it, but you cannot say the Bible doesn’t call Jesus God.

    >You cannot say the Angel in Revelation doesn't call himself Jesus.

    Sure I can. The angel doesn't. Your man made doctrine just needs to conflate the speakers to make it so. You even quoted the verses with numbering so as to hide your fakery.

    Second, you seem not to really know God’s plan of salvation, for that plan works only with God Himself as the Saviour. No other way makes sense.

    Isaiah 63:8,9 It worked just fine through out the scriptures when the Angels delivered Israel.

    Angels saving people like at the Red Sea or Paul from prison is not the plan of Salvation. The plan of salvation saves souls from eternal death.

    >They still gave the credit to the Father, with the term "Angel of his presence".

    Angels always give credit to God.

    >I makes perfect sense, just a teaching in the Bible that is not accepted by Trinitarians. 

    Every heretic "makes sense" to himself. But I've noticed that instead of addressing the verses that contradict your doctrine, you jump to other verses and interpret them using your error. 

    If you made perfect sense, you wouldn't have to do tha.

    And finally, I could ask you a series of questions that would show to you that you are wrong because you would not be able to answer the questions, and you would have to either run, dodge, or lie.

    Please ask me the questions. You may consider them a lie, because you will not like the answers, but all my answers will be Bible based.

    Jesus called Himself the "son of man". What did that mean?

    Deuteronomy 32:39 - "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."Meaning there is no office, no group, but only one and no one else.

    Deuteronomy 4:35 - "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."

    Even Jesus agreed with the same thing. There is only one God.

    >Typically Jesus would correct any wrong thinking, especially and opportunity to show three in one,

    And what makes this true? Jesus did not show everything to everyone, He said some things were meant for only a select few. Also, He did not show everything at once, and noted that there were things even His disciples were not ready to bear.

    >...but Jesus did not do it.

    There are many things that Jesus did not do, like argue His case at His trial. Your reason for why Jesus did not do those things is what is not scripture. Its your man made doctrine from conjecture.

    >Thus proving the opposite no office, no group, but only one and no one else.

    Your conjecture cannot prove or disprove anything in scripture.

    Mark 12:32-34 - " And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

    >"Have you ever seen Jesus agree with a scribe?

    Jesus agreed with anyone who told the truth. Their titles made no difference.

    >Especial on the essence of God?Jesus coined the statement "Only True God", and separated himself from that title.

    I haven't a clue what you mean by
    "seperated" Himself, but I do know your "separation" idea is not in scripture. Its only in your man made doctrine.

    >He applied the statement "my God" to only the father,

    Because only the Father is His God. Where is the issue?

    >...where he compared himself to a human in spirit form.

    Jesus never compared Himself to a human in spirit form.


    >I am sorry to burst your bubble, Jesus is not God.

    Lol. And then you woke up.
  • @Sand

    >The Angels are called gods and sons of God.

    So are men. You are putting the cart before the horse. You are expecting God to be like a human CEO, when it is the human CEO who should be modeled after God.

    The Bible itself does not call angels Gods, but only notes that some do call angels gods.

    And “sons of god” has different meanings, which is why Jesus is called the “only begotten” Son of God.

    >Once again only begotten. Meaning directly created.

    The bible contradicts you.
    Hebrews 7:3 – Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days or end of life; But made like unto the son of God, abideth a priest continually.

    Psalms 82: 7 – But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

    Angels do not die. The verse is referring to men. And it is rhetorical.

    >The ones who disobeyed will die in the second death.

    Ok.

    In a sense, we are all sons of God. But there is a marked and obvious difference between Jesus and every other “son of God”.

    >It is because we were all created.

    Then Jesus would not be the “only” begotten.

    Jesus accepted worship and claimed to share God’s glory…

    >Jesus gave the glory God gave to his disciples.

    >John 17:22 - “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:”

    So?

    Jesus accepted worship, claimed to be able to forgive sins, and have qualities only God has.

    >So did the Angel at the burning of the Bush.

    It was not an angel at the burning bush speaking to Moses.

    >Isaiah 63:8 ,9 - “In all their affliction He was afflicted,
    >And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
    >In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
    >And He bore them and carried them
    >All the days of old.”
    >Angel is the Agent of God’s Presence

    Not in every case. The question is not whether angels exist or do the will of God. Jesus is the creator of angels, not an angel Himself.

    >Jesus is the Agent of God’s Presence

    Scripture does not say so, and in fact says the opposite. I believe scripture.

    >Now you are doing deductive reasoning.

    No Sir. I am only going with scripture, you are the one attempting to make a single case universal despite what scripture says.

    >But Jesus was different better because he loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.

    All of God’s angels love righteousness and hate lawlessness.

    >Not as much as Jesus

    Where does it say so? Your man made doctrine has led you into error again.

    >Some people reference Jesus being worshiped by the Angels as a reason for him being better than them.

    Not some people, scripture. And the worship didn't MAKE Jesus better, He was better so therefore deserved worship.

    >Lets look at that scripture:
    >Hebrews 1:6 - "But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

    >Worship to Angels is ok when in connection to the Father, this is seen through out the scriptures.

    Completely untrue. Angels never accept worship, and Jesus tells us that worship belongs to God only. We are NEVER to direct our worship to anyone but God.

    >Moses worshiped God through his representative.

    Exodus 3:2-6 - "And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
    Untrue. Moses worshipped God. Please remind yourself of the 1st commandment God gave Moses.
    >Exodus 3:14 - "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’

    >According to these scriptures the Angel is saying he is Yahweh.

    That is just silly. The angel says no such thing. Nothing makes God and the angel the same except your man made doctrine.

    That is because you assume that this is an angel for no reason other than to satisfy your man made doctrine.

    >The famous “I AM WHO I AM”.

    >Yahweh himself said,

    >Isaiah 63:8 ,9 - “In all their affliction He was afflicted,
    >And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
    >In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
    >And He bore them and carried them, All the days of old.”
    >It was Yahweh represented through an Angel.

    So your man made doctrine says, but I think scripture is correct. It was God Himself, not an angel.
    Jesus never rejects worship. And “apart from God” is tautology. Scripture never so qualifies worship.

    >Jesus is telling John not to worship him.

    Revelation 22:8,9 - “Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

    It was not Jesus Sand. Scripture clearly says so. In Revelations, Jesus is called God, the Holy One, The Alpha and Omega, and The King of Kings. Never an angel.

    >Notice verse 10, “And he said to me” indicating he was still speaking, and this Angel finishes the remaining statements.

    Untrue. Jesus starts speaking in verse 12.

    >The Angel then says in Revelation 22:16 “I Jesus”....

    Lol. Are you afraid to say what comes after “I Jesus”?

    >Jesus as an Angel rejects John’s worship.

    Now you are making me doubt your honesty. Jesus says, “I Jesus have sent my Angel to tell you these things…”

    When earlier John says he was about to fall down to worship said angel telling him these things.

    Jesus sent His angel. Jesus is not the angel, which is why the angel refuses worship.

    Please try to be honest. You could simply have said, I don’t know, or, please let me study the verse further” without conceding anything. Resist the temptation to lie.

    Revelation 22:8-17 - “Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

    The things Jesus said He sent His angel to tell John.

    Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

    If this was Jesus, why would He refuse worship when the Father Himself commands angels to worship Him?

    And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

    You have removed the verse numbering. Why? Verse 12 begins here, and it is now Jesus speaking.

    >12 - “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

    No angel is the alpha and omega, the first and the last. Only God is.

    >Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    16 -“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”

    This is clearly Jesus speaking and He even says “I Jesus...” And your man made doctrine forces you to ignore the verses of God!

    1st Timothy 3:16 – And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    >That is an altered text.
    Sorry, this is just the opinion of one man. He disliked the Catholic Church. There is no real reason to think this verse (or any other) was corrupted. We have literally hundreds of ancient copies of the Bible, and can be very sure of the authenticity of the text we currently have. Also, there are other verses calling Jesus God, using the actual word “God”.

    >Lets keep going, you taught me a lot. I was stood corrected on a lot of scriptures. Which shows big room for growth.

    But you simply ignore the verses I posted. For example, you asked, “I would like to see these scriptures where the Father called Jesus God, and the Holy Spirit called Jesus God.”

    When I showed you the verses, you just dropped the topic. You have to address that issue. One verse in the bible cannot be used to nullify another verse. They must be reconciled.

    >I can see both viewpoints. I feel refined in my viewpoint, yet resolute in my position.

    There is no reason you should feel that way. But since giving you verses doesn’t seem to sway you, I will use logic next.

    But for now let me close with some questions.

    1. What is the “Godhead”?
    2. When Jesus asked, “Which is harder? To say to say to a man your sins are forgiven, or to say to him, take up your bed and walk?” Can you answer that question?
    3. If Jesus is the son of David, how come David called Him Lord?
    4. Why did Jesus have to die for our sins?

    Now let's see if you run, dodge, or lie.
  • SandSand 93 Pts
    >>>No Sir. Please stay honest. We were talking about the Godhead dwelling fully in Jesus. I did not say different types of fullness.
    >>>September 20 th >>>The two passages are talking about different types of “fullness”.
    You need to go back and read what you typed. Maybe someone of ethang5 class typed that, or maybe that is you man made doctrine showing.

    >>>I did not say that “fullness” did not apply to the Godhead.
    >>>September 20 th >>>You saw “fullness” here and assumed it was talking about the Godhead because the word “fullness” is also in the other verse.
    I understand it is hard to know what you are saying.

    >>>The verse says it pleased the Father that in Jesus should fullness dwell, it says nothing about when Jesus got this fullness, or if He was ever without it.
    The word “pleased” is past tense, meaning at one time it was present and future tense. Meaning there was a time when it was present or Jesus was pleasing the Father, and there was a time before Jesus did what he did to please the Father.
    https://leo.stcloudstate.edu/grammar/tenses.html
    This is english. If I say I was “pleased” it does not mean that it was at all times.

    >>>It pleased the Father, and God is immutable.
    I thought we were talking about Jesus.

    >>>So unless the actual word is in the verse, it cannot be talking about fullness? The “fullness” we are talking about is the fullness of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is fully God, and several verses call Him God, using the exact word. The Holy Spirit calls Himself God, and the Apostles call Him God. That is good enough for me.
    Not according to scripture, which you claim to stick by.
    They could call him god. But the scripture call him a so-called God.
    1 Corinthians 8:4,5 - includes everyone called God in heaven.
    Are you telling me you would accept a scripture that does not have the word in it as a reference to the fullness of the Godhead? Because Angels and men have title of God also.


    >>>I said nothing about sinning against the “office of God”. I said sin against the Holy Spirit.
    You are saying that Peter said reference to the Holy Spirit is reference to the “office of God”.

    >>>And my understanding is that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father or the Son. That is why the sin must be specifically against the person of the Holy Spirit.
    Are you not trying to say that Peter referenced the Holy Spirit as God?

    >>>Do you not think it inconsistent that you believe sin against God is forgivable, but sin against a created thing is not?
    No this is what is stated in the scriptures. God makes the rules not me.
    But the question is - your references to “God” does it always exclude the Holy Spirit, or only when it suits your ideals?

    What do you think Peter meant here?
    >>>Why did Peter not strike dead all the other people who lied to him? Why was Peter himself not struck dead when he lied and denied Jesus?
    I think you are making my point for me.
    You are saying the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Jesus. I am saying the Holy Spirit is not God. The scripture has two references one to God one to the Holy Spirit. You are trying to say that the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Jesus but is God. If Peter is referencing God as the Holy Spirit then every reference to God is a reference to the Holy Spirit, unless indicated otherwise.

    >>>I don’t. And neither did Jesus.
    And neither should we do the same with Peter.

    >>>No Sir. It isn’t my wording. It is scripture. Those are Peter’s words, and I accept them.
    As do I.

    >>>It is wrong to doubt that the Holy Spirit is God.
    Where does it say this?

    >>>Both the Father and the Son are also used in association with other impersonal things.
    Where is your support of this?

    >>>The Holy Spirit is not ALWAYS listed with qualities. And even if He was, it would not mean He was not God. The Father’s qualities are also often listed. That is normal and expected.
    Show me where the Father or Jesus is listed among qualities?

    >>>None of these verses say or imply that the Holy Spirit is not God. In fact, these verses argue the opposite for I can find verses talking about both Jesus and the Father attached to the same qualities.
    Maybe mentioned as having qualities, but never listed among qualities. I maybe wrong, but please provide scriptures.

    >>>Wisdom never sends people to go find a specific person, or to refrain from preaching in a certain place for a certain time. Those verses are clearly anthropomorphisms, and the bible never calls wisdom, God.
    You missed my point, and are now trying to be specific, but I can see where you are coming from.

    >>>Because revelation is given in stages. i.e. John knew more than Abraham, and Abraham knew more than Job.
    I agree with your statement here.

    >>>He was talking about God, and we already agreed that God did not die.
    Here is a reference to God not including Jesus.

    >>>Anyway scripture did not say God died, it said Jesus died.
    You are making my point again.

    >>>Not always. I can refer to God, or I can refer to a specific person in the Godhead.
    You would need to be specific to make those references. Such specification is not made by the Apostles.

    >>>I am referencing the office, held by three persons. Do confuse yourself.
    Apparently Habakkuk did not understand by saying God he was not referencing the whole “office”. Also the Apostles did not understand it, either.

    >>>Not at all. I accept whatever the bible says. And I know what the bible says.
    I suppose I was mistaken.

    >>>Jesus said He did BOTH Himself.
    What is the definition of the first death mean to you? What does resurrection mean to you? Did Jesus resurrect or the “office” resurrect?

    >>>Verses mean things, and if you change one, you fall into error.
    I agree.

    >>>Of course, Jesus said He always did what pleased the Father, and the Father always pleased the Son.
    Where is the scripture that the Father pleased the Son?
    Assumptions to your man made doctrine.

    >>>Jesus was being symbolic, that was not hyperbole. Perhaps you don’t know what hyperbole means?
    Hyperbole - “exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.”

    >>>Real death is what is spoken about in Revelation 20.6 and 14. Sorry, I see no contradiction.
    It is clearly stated as the “second”death. Your understanding is misapplied.

    >>>As long as you agree that the added stuff is your doctrine and not scripture.
    No I do not agree. Please show the doctrine part.

    >>>Sorry, that is not what Jesus said Himself. You cannot bend Jesus’ words to fit your doctrine. Your doctrine must bend to accommodate the words of the Master.
    How is this different than what I said? “You have to take all scriptures in consideration to get the true picture.”

    >>>Where is the verse that says God cannot be Satan?
    Is Satan part of your Godhead also? And you call my thoughts wild? Wow! If this is your reasoning, you need much to meditate on. I think you are just trying to make a point. That God can do all things. Hopefully it is just a point. My answer, no it doesn’t say directly that God cannot be Satan. We conclude this from cannot lie.

    >>>Jesus resumed His position in the Godhead, at the right hand of power.
    Where does it say that Jesus resumed his position in the Godhead?
    Assumptions to your man made doctrine.

    >>>“Alive for evermore” means the same thing.
    Forward,.. not backward.

    >>>The Bible calls Jesus Immortal, having no beginning or end.
    The scriptures say what is mortal puts on immortality.
    Meaning forward, not backward. Unless you believe men who are given immortality will be without beginning.

    >>>That is why you are trying to change John 10:18. Sorry, the scripture trumps any man made doctrine.
    No one is changing the scriptures here. I said Hyperbole, meaning not literal. Did Jesus resurrect himself, or God, or Jesus with the office?

    >>>No one can be “commanded” to freely do something.
    Not according to Jesus:
    Luke 7:42 - “And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”

    >>>God saw that no one else could do it, so He did it Himself.
    But you said God didn’t die, Jesus died.
    So is your man made breakdown reference to God includes the Father?

    >>>Words can have more than one meaning. And I did not say absolute was limitless. You did. Please stop pretending your comments are mine.
    >>>100% is absolute, like infinity.
    My comments? I’m trying to follow your made up doctrine.

    >>>I don’t see why not.
    Lol. I am starting to see word understanding is a problem with Trinitarins.

    >>>Infinite and infinity are different words.
    Lol. Wow.

    >>>I only see the contradiction to your poor skills at adding infinity.
    Lol. Maybe you can add it.
    I’m sorry. I mean no disrespect, but you literally had me laughing.
    Lets get away from these words.

    >>>They are not “collectively” God.
    Here is the problem I feel. When the Apostles references “God”are they referring to all three?

    >>>That would be true if I took your man made doctrine, which is what you want me to do. Sorry, I prefer scripture.
    You tell me? Are they referencing all three? My understanding is “no” they are referencing only the Father.

    >>>Because in each of them dwells the fullness of the Godhead.
    Here you are again with the words “in each”.

    >>>There is only one office Sand. God is the office, each person in the Godhead has a name, and it isn’t “God”. The problem is caused by your man made doctrine, it isn’t in scripture.
    You are making the scriptures fit your man made doctrine. Based on your definition of God. Every reference to God is not a reference to the whole, it could be it could not be. That means it is ambiguous. Making your disagreement with anyone else without standing.

    >>>Multiple persons, not multiple Gods. I believe there is only one God. The Bible describes Him as a trinity, thus I accept it.
    One ambiguous God.

    >>>Sure it does. And it’s more than deductive reasoning, it’s just logic.
    The Trinity is not logical.

    >>>Sorry, the only thing that proves is that you have been led into error by the Jehovah Witnesses.
    I have nothing against the Witness Religion, but I am Unitarian.

    >>>It doesn’t have to. God is the source of ALL wisdom and knowledge.
    Your reference to God here does it mean the whole office? The whole Father? The whole Son? The whole Holy Spirit? The whole Father and Son? The whole Holy Spirit and Son? The whole Father and Holy Spirit? You got to be specific.
    Because that scripture says the Holy Spirit didn’t know the day and hour also. It was very specific, it said “only the Father”.

    >>>John 18:4
    John 18:4 - “Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?”
    All things that should come upon him, and that’s it!

    >>>Sorry. I read the Bible. Nothing will make me doubt it.
    That’s your problem, no study.

    >>>And the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
    Show me the scripture where the Holy Spirit and Son is called the “True God”
    You are confused. This verse is saying God DID NOT at any time say to any angel, “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. No Sir. The verse is saying that NEVER happened.

    >>>Untrue. That is not what “begotten” means.
    >>>You are not quoting scripture Sand, you are quoting the dictionary.
    Yes because you are making up definitions. If you do not believe the word is mistranslated then you need to show this. The translated word is “begotten”. This is God’s words about Jesus.

    >>>No Sir. Scripture calls Jesus the ONLY begotten.
    How does this change the meaning of the word “begotten”?

    >>>Hebrews 7:3 – Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days or end of life; But made like unto the son of God, abideth a priest continually.
    You mean Melchizedek? What does he have to do with Jesus being “begotten”?

    >>>In your man made doctrine, but not in Scripture.
    You still did not address the scripture of him being a “creation”.
    Revelation 3:14 - “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”

    >>>1st Corinthians 8:5, 6 - "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live."
    It says so-called Gods in heaven. That means everything in heaven with the title “God”in heaven. “yet for us there is one God, the Father”
    Looks like you are about to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, by going against what is written.

    >>>Simply untrue. And if it was, it still would not mean Jesus was an angel.
    It doesn’t mean he is not.

    >>>Silly. Jesus was speaking to specific people who this was true about. You want to make it universal only because it would fit your man made doctrine.
    It says this multiple times in the scriptures. John 1:18

    >>>That is an unsubstantiated claim of alteration.
    Then why is it not in all the Greek manuscripts?
    Why do the modern translations take it out of their translations?
    https://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/3-16.htm
    Here is your reference to Greek text, notice no “Theos”.

    >>>It also shows how much in error you are.
    I see you do not study deeply. You need to read more.

    >>>Jesus is called the Morning Star in the OT. It is not an angel.
    Mourning stars are Angels - Job 38:7

    >>>Man made conjecture bending scripture to fit your man made doctrine.
    Yet you did not answer any of those questions.

    >>>Jesus is eternal, angels are not.
    Jesus has endless life now.

    >>>Yes, and you still have not explained how come Jesus is called the "ONLY" if begotten means created, and we were all created. Are we not all begotten then?
    He is only directly created by the Father.

    >>>That is your man made doctrine that contradicts the verses that say Jesus, like the Father, had no beginning. Jesus was the first Son of many sons.
    The scriptures uses the word “creation”. This is God’s words about Jesus, you cannot alter the scriptures to fit your man made Trinity.

    >>>No sir. It just means Jesus was the first man to die for sins and the first to resurrect a new man, the first of all newly created men, born again  from water and the Sprit.
    Once again you are altering the scriptures, “Firstborn of all creatures”. This is God’s words about Jesus, you cannot alter the scriptures to fit your man made Trinity.

    >>>Sure I can. He didn't.
    You would be wrong, again.
    Jesus says all that the Father has
     is His, angels do not.

    >>>Untrue. Verse please.
    Matthew 28:18 - "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
    Daniel 7:14 - "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."
    Matthew 11:27 - "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
    Phillippians 2:9 - "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:"
    John 3:35 - "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand."
    John 5:27 - "And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."
    John 6:39 - "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
    Practically the whole chapter of John 17 about 10 times.
    John 5:26 - "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,"
    John 6:65 - "And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”"
    Acts 10:40 - "Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;"
    It says, “shewed”, “granted”, and“given” all past tensed words meaning they at one time had a present and future tense.

    >>>Untrue. The bible says Jesus sits at the right hand of power. Do you know what the "right hand of power" means? Hint: It isn't that power is to the left of Jesus.
    Let me walk through this. Jesus sits at the right hand of power.
    But it is not power next to him? You might want to reread that scripture.
    Sitting at the right hand of power. That doesn’t mean Jesus is the Power. He is sitting at the right hand of power. I am saying it so you can get it. He is not the source.

    >>>Untrue. The bible says all things were made BY Him, and nothing exists that was not made by Him.
    Old english chap! “By”in old means “through” in modern.
    You really need to start studying Greek and Hebrew.
    John 3:19 -“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”
    You seem to read the King James version a lot.
    Let me help you with a few definition of words that have changed with modern english.

    Besides the notorious "thee" and "thou"
    "Meat" - any kind of food
    "Corn" - any grain, particularly wheat
    "His" is used where we would use "its"
    "Prevent" means "come before," not "hinder"
    "Let" means "prevent"; now it means "allow"
    "Suffer" means "allow"; now is used for experiencing pain
    "Conversation" means "interaction"; now it is limited to "talking"
    "Evidently" means "clearly"; now it means "apparently"
    To be "careful" means to worry; now it means being cautious
    To be "pitiful" means to be compassionate; now it means "wretched" or "miserable"
    "Worship" means respectful physical bowing or prostration; now it means a mental state of reverence
    "Quick" means "alive"; now it means "fast"
    Just a few.

    >>>Jesus said angels do not die. You cannot simply throw away the verses that debunk your man made doctrine.
    Where is the scripture showing Angels do not die?

    >>>He did not.
    You are proven wrong!
    Exodus 3:2 - “And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. ”
    Exodus 3:14 - “And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

    >>>He did not.
    You are proven wrong again!
    Judges 13:21, 22 - “When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”

    >>>He did not.
    You are proven wrong again!
    Genesis 31:1 - “So Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.”
    Genesis 32:30 - “So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

    >>>That was not an Angel.
    You were right here.
    Correction, it was Hagar.
    Genesis 16:11-13 - “And the Angel of the Lord said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?”

    >>>He did not.
    You are proven wrong again!
    Genesis 22:15 - “Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— ”

    >>>He did not.
    You are proven wrong again!
    Genesis 31:11-13 - “Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’ ”

    >>>He did not.
    You are proven wrong again!
    Judges 6:11-14 - “Now the Angel of the Lord came and sat under the terebinth tree which was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon threshed wheat in the winepress, in order to hide it from the Midianites. And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him, and said to him, “The Lord is with you, you mighty man of valor!” Gideon said to Him, “O my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the Lord has forsaken us and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.” Then the Lord turned to him and said, “Go in this might of yours, and you shall save Israel from the hand of the Midianites. Have I not sent you?”

    >>>Sure I can. The angel doesn't. Your man made doctrine just needs to conflate the speakers to make it so. You even quoted the verses with numbering so as to hide your fakery.
    My hope was you would read it, before commenting on the scripture.
    I will give you the whole chapter so you can see your own fakery.
    Revelation 22:
    1And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
    6Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
    7“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
    8Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
    9Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [e]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
    12“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
    14Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
    16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
    17And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
    18For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the [l]Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    20He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
    Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
    21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    >>>Every heretic "makes sense" to himself. But I've noticed that instead of addressing the verses that contradict your doctrine, you jump to other verses and interpret them using your error.
    Give me the verses that contradict. I notice you do not read the scriptures I mention to you. Saying it doesn’t say that, when it does. Not addressing all the questions.

    >>>If you made perfect sense, you wouldn't have to do tha.
    I do not believe the scriptures contradict my viewpoint only your man made doctrine.

    >>>Jesus called Himself the "son of man". What did that mean?
    Jesus is called the “Son of man” calls attention to his being of the human race by virtue of his fleshly birth, also shows he has the ability to redeem them from bondage to sin and death, that he might die and "taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

    >>>And what makes this true? Jesus did not show everything to everyone, He said some things were meant for only a select few. Also, He did not show everything at once, and noted that there were things even His disciples were not ready to bear.
    Now he is hiding things.
    Then why did he agree with him, if it was the wrong conclusion?

    >>>There are many things that Jesus did not do, like argue His case at His trial. Your reason for why Jesus did not do those things is what is not scripture. Its your man made doctrine from conjecture.
    You sure or are you just deflecting to support your man made doctrine.I didn’t even bring up the trial. He agreed with a scribe.

    >>>Jesus agreed with anyone who told the truth. Their titles made no difference.
    Truth on the essence of God, that Jesus is not of the “office” of God.

    >>>I haven't a clue what you mean by "seperated" Himself, but I do know your "separation" idea is not in scripture. Its only in your man made doctrine.
    This statement of “Only True God”should include everyone in the “office”of God, but Jesus felt the need to add himself outside of that Title.

    >>>Jesus never compared Himself to a human in spirit form.
    After Jesus resurrection he said this to Mary:
    John 20:17 - “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

    >>>So are men. You are putting the cart before the horse. You are expecting God to be like a human CEO, when it is the human CEO who should be modeled after God.
    No. I am going on your man made doctrine of the word “office”, a term never applied to God in the scriptures.

    >>>The Bible itself does not call angels Gods, but only notes that some do call angels gods.
    Umm, that is the Bible calling Angels God. If the Bible notes it then it  says it. You cannot nullify the scriptures with your man made doctrine.

    >>>And “sons of god” has different meanings, which is why Jesus is called the “only begotten” Son of God.
    I suppose you would provide that different meaning when you state the word “different”. Only begotten means only directly created.

    >>>Hebrews 7:3 – Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days or end of life; But made like unto the son of God, abideth a priest continually.
    Melchizedek again. How does this prove Jesus is not begotten?

    >>>Psalms 82: 7 – But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
    Once again you have not explained why men would die like men. You cannot be a simile of yourself.

    >>>Angels do not die. The verse is referring to men. And it is rhetorical.
    Looking for that scripture of Angels do not die.

    >>>In a sense, we are all sons of God. But there is a marked and obvious difference between Jesus and every other “son of God”.
    In a sense, because it is not titled or stated.

    >>>Then Jesus would not be the “only” begotten.
    Only directly created, everything else was made “through”Jesus.
    Jesus accepted worship and claimed to share God’s glory…

    >>>Not in every case. The question is not whether angels exist or do the will of God. Jesus is the creator of angels, not an angel Himself.
    So that would make Adam not a man Himself. It is the same template.

    >>>No Sir. I am only going with scripture, you are the one attempting to make a single case universal despite what scripture says.
    Then show me the scripture. You make statements but do not show scripture.

    >>>All of God’s angels love righteousness and hate lawlessness.
    True. But not at the same level as Jesus.
    Want to qoute the whole scripture, don’t want you to think I avoiding contradiction.
    Hebrews 1:8, 9 - “But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
    A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
    With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
    Here The Father does not call Jesus God.
    The Greek reads as so:
    ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona ton aionos
    the throne of you the god until the age of the age
    Where does the verb "is" go in this sentence to hold it all together? Verbs goes between the subject and the object, or in sentences that use the verb "to be," between the subject and the predicate noun or predicate adjective, or some other predicate modifier. The question in Hebrews 1:8 is what is the subject? Subject nouns in Greek are usually easy to identify because they are in the subject nominative form. But when the verb is a be-verb, the other nouns in the sentence can also be in the nominative form.
    In Hebrews 1:8 we have two nouns in the nominative form: "throne" and "God." The verb "is" should go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases of saying "x is y" in the New Testament. If that is so then the sentence should read: "Your throne is God, forever and ever."
    This reference is from - Rolf Furuli - The Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation

    >>>Where does it say so? Your man made doctrine has led you into error again.
    Now for my point - “more than Your companions”
    More means - a greater or additional amount or degree.
    He loved righteousness and hated lawlessness more than his companions.
    Maybe you can explain who is Jesus companions?

    >>>Completely untrue. Angels never accept worship, and Jesus tells us that worship belongs to God only. We are NEVER to direct our worship to anyone but God.
    Then you know nothing about Agency.
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1450198?seq=13#metadata_info_tab_contents

    >>>Untrue. Moses worshipped God. Please remind yourself of the 1st commandment God gave Moses.
    Exodus 20:3 - “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
    I see no contradiction.

    >>>That is just silly. The angel says no such thing. Nothing makes God and the angel the same except your man made doctrine.
    Hebrew scholars would disagree with you.
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1450198?seq=13#metadata_info_tab_contents
    That is because you assume that this is an angel for no reason other than to satisfy your man made doctrine.

    >>>It was not Jesus Sand. Scripture clearly says so. In Revelations, Jesus is called God, the Holy One, The Alpha and Omega, and The King of Kings. Never an angel.
    It also calls him creation. Revelation 3:14

    >>>Untrue. Jesus starts speaking in verse 12.
    Are you really being honest. There is no statement of anyone else speaking.
    You are inputting your man made thoughts in the Bible.

    >>>Lol. Are you afraid to say what comes after “I Jesus”?
    Nope that is why I quoted the whole scripture, above. I thought you would read the scripture, but because you assume my feelings, I do not mind quoting.
    Thats why I placed the whole chapter in the response.

    >>>Now you are making me doubt your honesty. Jesus says, “I Jesus have sent my Angel to tell you these things…”
    Nowhere does the scripture say “Jesus says” the Angel is speaking.
    Now in your mind it says “Jesus says” but then you would be guilty of adding to the Word of God. Of course it could be your man made Trinitarian doctrine speaking.

    >>>Please try to be honest. You could simply have said, I don’t know, or, please let me study the verse further” without conceding anything. Resist the temptation to lie.
    That is your mind lying to you, or your man made doctrine.

    >>>If this was Jesus, why would He refuse worship when the Father Himself commands angels to worship Him?
    Because it was not in connection with God.

    >>>You have removed the verse numbering. Why? Verse 12 begins here, and it is now Jesus speaking.
    There are no verse numbers in the Greek.

    >>>No angel is the alpha and omega, the first and the last. Only God is.
    Wrong, the Angel Jesus is also.

    >>>This is clearly Jesus speaking and He even says “I Jesus...” And your man made doctrine forces you to ignore the verses of God!
    Yes it is Jesus speaking, he is the Angel!

    >>>1st Timothy 3:16 – And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
    >>>Sorry, this is just the opinion of one man. He disliked the Catholic Church. There is no real reason to think this verse (or any other) was corrupted. We have literally hundreds of ancient copies of the Bible, and can be very sure of the authenticity of the text we currently have. Also, there are other verses calling Jesus God, using the actual word “God”.
    Look in the other Bibles versions. There was validity to this one man. Now look at the Greek. https://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/3-16.htm

    >>>But you simply ignore the verses I posted. For example, you asked, “I would like to see these scriptures where the Father called Jesus God, and the Holy Spirit called Jesus God.”
    There is no reference to God calling Jesus God in Hebrews.
    I apologize, I just addressed this.

    >>>1. What is the “Godhead”?
    Colossians 2:10 - “And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:”

    >>>2. When Jesus asked, “Which is harder? To say to say to a man your sins are forgiven, or to say to him, take up your bed and walk?” Can you answer that question?
    Yes. Take up your bed and walk. - Mark 2:11 -“I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

    >>>3. If Jesus is the son of David, how come David called Him Lord?
    Because God made Jesus Lord and Christ. Acts 2:33-36
    It involves the prophecy God gave to David. Psalms 89:3, 4, 29, 35-37

    >>>4. Why did Jesus have to die for our sins?
    John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
    Romans 5:9 - "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

    I have noticed that you do not have or care to have a knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew. You are missing the understanding of common word definitions. You are also missing the old English definitions. As a result you paint with a broad brush. You mostly deflected the information this time. Don't slow down, keep digging, the more you know the sharper your sword.

    I will send my questions soon.

  • SandSand 93 Pts
    Now here is your turn to see if you run, dodge, or lie.
    Here are my questions:

    If the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit are all equal, then why did Jesus say it was not his to give just after two disciples asked to sit in prominant positions, at the time when Jesus is in spirit form?
    Mark10:35-40 - "35And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. 36And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? 37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared."

    If the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are equal in knowledge, then why did Jesus say that the Holy Spirit did not know the day and the hour?
    Matthew 24:36 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

    You said Jesus freely gave his life and took it up, then why did Jesus say that he cannot do a single thing freely?
    John 5:30 = "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."




  • SandSand 93 Pts
    Let sum this information up

    1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 - “5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

    called gods = everything called god
    In heaven = the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit
    (which also includes the Angels, but Trinitarians want to deny it)
    In Earth = Humans and Idols
    One God = the Father
    This negates the Son, the Holy Spirit, Angels, Humans, and Idols.
    One Lord (or King) = Jesus

    Notice this

    Of whom are all things - of = from
    By whom are all things - by = through
    Huge difference

    1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 - “5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.”

    This scripture also shows that the Father is the from (source). Jesus is the through (conduit).
    This is clear that the Father is the source of Power, Knowledge, and Life.

    Trinitarians play with definitions and add to the Bible.
     
    They will try to convince you that “only begotten” doesn’t mean only begotten. When it is clear that the Father created the First Angel and through that Angel made a second Angel, and through those two Angels made a third Angel, and through those three Angels made a fourth, and so on, and so on, and so on. This is the same way he made Adam, and from Adam's rib he made Eve, and through Adam and Eve, he made Cain, Able, Seth, etc. Did God directly make you or I, no. But God made us “through” our fathers and mothers. This understanding is confirmed through the other term applied to Jesus, “Firstborn”. A double confirmation of this is in Revelation 3:14, “the beginning of the creation of God”. Jesus is the First Angel.

    Trinitarians try to redefine these words to mean something they don’t.

    Additional proof is Revelation 22:6-16.
    Here the Angel is talking with John. As you can see from my discussion Trinitarians will try to input “Jesus says”, as if Jesus was not the Angel. When the text clearly says the Angel was speaking. John confirmed this with the words, “Then he told me”. They want to insert Jesus says because this is undeniable proof that the Angel claimed to be Jesus. You can clearly see the word terminology in verse 12 is from that Angel because it is the same word terminology in verse 7.
    Trinitarians in an effort to make the Bible fit their man-made doctrine, violate Revelation 22:18, 19 - “18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. ”
    They are trying to add the words “Jesus says”, to differentiate Jesus from an Angel, when it is crystal clear that Jesus is an Angel.

    Additional proof is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 - “15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

    Here Jesus uses the voice of an archangel to call people back to life. But if he is God, then why not use your own voice? Why reduce your voice to an Archangel’s voice. Unless you are actually an Archangel!
    To confirm this voice is Jesus' words at John 5:25 - “25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”

    Here Jesus confirms it is his voice that he will use!

    Jesus was known for correcting any wrong information. Mark 12 and Luke 20 shows a series of questions the chief priests, scribes, and Sadducees were trying to question Jesus on. Of all the questions he commended one scribe for their thinking. The scribe being Unitarian asked Jesus about the essence of God, referencing one of the strongest supports for Unitarian belief. Jesus not only supported the reference he commended the scribe stating “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”If Jesus was part of the office of God the opportune time to speak about it would be then. This was the prime time to spell out his connection or a correction to the Jewish understanding of Unitarianism. If Jesus was hiding information then he would need to not say anything. But to confirm the information without a correction and to commend the person bring the question shows agreement. Therefore one could easily see that Jesus confirmed Unitarianism.

    There are several lines of thought:
    #1 God is One.- Unitarian - Scriptural
    The only number actually applied to God. - Deuteronomy 6:4
    #2 There is more than one God. - Polytheism - Non-scriptural
    #3 God is three persons in one. - Trinitarian - Non-scriptural
    The major problem with the Trinity it tries to claim its line of thought and the first line of thought. God is one and it is three persons.

    This is the Fallacy of Ambiguity
    https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Recognizing_Fallacies/Fallacies_of_Ambiguity
    When the meaning of a word or phrase shifts within the course of an argument, a fallacy of ambiguity occurs.
    God is a Title
    God is an Office
    If God is a title and we have three persons who can claim this title then we have three Gods. By making the claim that God is one, Trinitarians are trying to adhere to scriptures already mentioned several times in the Bible at the same time fit in a different concept of God. (Like fitting a square peg in a round hole)

    God becomes ambiguous, jumping back and forth through 7 connotations
    God - The Father
    God - The Son
    God - The Holy Spirit
    God - The Father and Son
    God - The Holy Spirit and Son
    God - The Father and Holy Spirit
    God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

    The Trinty has to be taught, no one person can come up with this concept on their own
    I respect ething5, he is very intelligent and young in his studies of the Bible.
    I use to be that way, just believing.
    Then I began to study deeper, looking at the information from different angles. I read books from Greek and Hebrew scholars. I dug in the information to see the real wording of the scriptures. Did persons get this thought from the Bible, or were they told these conclusions. It is like taking an arrow and planting it in a tree and then painting a bulls eye around it.
    Jesus is not God, he says it too many times.

    The conclusion is the Trinity is not scriptural.
    The Trinity is not logical. (3 in 1)
    The Trinity is not true.
    The True God is the Father and no one else.
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