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Is the concept of insanity is harmful to our society?
in Global

By piloteerpiloteer 467 Pts
Is telling somebody they're insane no different than telling someone they are not in control of their actions, but they have an excuse, because they're insane? Is it ethically correct to continue to tell "insane" people they are not in control of their actions, or they have an excuse for their actions when others don't?  Do we as a society exacerbate the problem of "insanity"? Or maybe we are entirely at fault for creating the concept of insanity altogether? Can the problem of "insanity" be radically reduced if we change our entire concept of what insanity is, and how it affects us as a society?     



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  • Could you define this "insanity problem"?  It is not an accepted medical term so I fail to see what problem you're referring to at the moment... 
    OppolzerAlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    The concept of insanity is necessary to protect others from possible harm from these types or we would think it ok to leave children with a schizophrenic mother or let our societies be run by people displaying totally irrational behaviors

    We need at least a basic means of measuring what’s deemed sane and insane behaviors and those displaying such as safeguards in our societies , the systems while not totally effective are effective to an extent and most of us have a working knowledge of what insanity looks like when confronted with such
    BrainSocks
  • WinstonCWinstonC 114 Pts
    edited August 31
    Telling someone they have a mental illness certainly can lead them to use the diagnosis as an excuse. However, in cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) it is stressed that the sufferer can change their thoughts and behaviour. Indeed, this is what the course of treatment is focused on doing.

    Categorizing mental illnesses allows us to study them and produce treatments for them. If we don't identify the problem, we can't offer potential solutions.
  • piloteerpiloteer 467 Pts
    edited September 1
    @WinstonC

    The "sufferer" can change thier thoughts with or without CBT, but what does changing your thoughts matter if everybody in society regards you as dangerous, and expects that you will eventually cause harm to someone? How much of their suffering is actually caused by them being socially stigmatized?

     Not only do I feel that societies attitudes toward mental illness exacerbates, or perhaps even causes the problem of violent irrational behavior associated with mental illness, but I also believe totally normal functioning people who don't have any illnesses can use the excuse of insanity to their advantage, and many will accept it. How many among us consider people who commit mass shootings "crazy", simply because they commit mass shootings? How many of those mass shooters would actually be considered "crazy" if they were subjected to a psychological screening? If the answer to the last question is not 100%, then I think societies problem is not with mentally ill people, it's with our views toward the mentally ill, and what it actually means to be "crazy", because we are labeling totally sane people as crazy.

    There are also those who may not be trying to use being labeled insane to their advantage, they just get that label because they don't "fit in".  Lets face it, just being socially awkward can get someone labeled "crazy". Maybe not among psychologists, but the bulk of society will be weary of someone simply because they're quiet. How many loners simply snap because they aren't considered normal, but if they were subjected to a psychological screening, they'd be considered totally normal? Perhaps the problem is the concept of crazy itself.            

    Leave us take note of Dee's argument, and how "@Dee mentions leaving children with a schizophrenic mother, is not ok. Dee never showed any evidence that proves all schizophrenic people are to unfit to be parents. Notice how Dee refers to mentally ill people as "these types". Also take note of Dee's irrational feelings toward those who Dee would consider irrational, by arguing that if we don't separate the sick from  the pure, then we will be letting "our societies be run by people displaying totally irrational behaviors", as if Dee is alluding to some kind of conspiracy among the mentally ill to overrun our society!?!? Perhaps it's those elitist views that create a profound problem.   

    "@Plaffelvohfen, that's what I means by the "insanity problem"!!!! 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited September 2
    @piloteer


    Leave us take note of Dee's argument, and how "@Dee mentions leaving children with a schizophrenic mother, is not ok. Dee never showed any evidence that proves all schizophrenic people are to unfit to be parents. 

    Why are you appealing to “us” as in “leave us take note of Dees argument “? Do you just want everyone to agree with you and if so why?

    I certainly would not want my kids looked after by a schizophrenic mother but yet in this P C age such a bizarre thought seems to upset greatly people such as you who have this absurd notion that the  demonizing of those who think like me is the P C way and should be encouraged somehow.
    I did not mention” all schizophrenic parents “ as levels vary but yes I would have concerns even at that , the damage done on children who have to live with such can be well supported if you want studies I can provide , so what would yo do to counter such ? Deny the studies and maybe assert it’s a positive experience for a child to live with a schizophrenic parent?


    Notice how Dee refers to mentally ill people as "these types

    Funny isn’t it that mentally ill is one type and mentally fit another type of human condition and ever more funny by calling some people “mentally ill” you have put them into the box and you rail at me doing as you do

    ". Also take note of Dee's irrational feelings toward those who Dee would consider irrational, by arguing that if we don't separate the sick from  the pure, then we will be letting "our societies be run by people displaying totally irrational behaviors", a

    My feelings are perfectly rational and yet again your hurt feelings and opinions on the matter are something you need to address, if you just want to post up opinion pieces well do so but don’t expect me to agree.

    I again never said the “sick from the pure” so please don’t invent statements and credit them to me in an appeal to emotions of others

    If people are mentally unwell I do not want them educating or minding my children I also do not want them running countries , I can give you examples of mentally unwell people who attempted to run countries if you wish 

    as if Dee is alluding to some kind of conspiracy among the mentally ill to overrun our society!?!? Perhaps it's those elitist views that create a profound problem.   


    Here you go again accrediting me with your thoughts on what you know I didn’t say but that never stops you from ignoring such and printing what you think I said.

    So if you just want your opinion piece to be accepted you got to ask yourself why’s that? What upsets you so much much that I have a different opinion?

    I’m unaware of any such “conspiracy plot” as you put it but your imaginative outburst is something you should take the “credit” for Instead of attempting to blame me for your nonsense.

    Maybe you should also accuse hospitals and such of “elitist” views fo daring to diagnose and categorize those with mental illnesses , when you get over your hurt feelings and over the top P C  world views maybe get back to me  

    WinstonC
  • piloteerpiloteer 467 Pts
    edited September 2
    Dee said:

    Why are you appealing to “us” as in “leave us take note of Dees argument “? Do you just want everyone to agree with you and if so why? 
    "@Dee

     Yes, I do want everybody to agree with me at all times. That's why I'm on DI.

    Yes, if you know of studies that verify the inability of all schizophrenic people of being proper parents, please, do tell. I have a parent who suffers from schizophrenia, and I was not told about his illness until I was 14 years old, and I didn't know what schizophrenia was until that moment. I was deeply disappointed with my parents who couldn't be forthcoming with the truth. I felt that I would have had a better understanding of my father, and a closer relationship with him if I knew of his illness earlier. It was his father who eventually told me because he was angry at my parents for not telling me, hence the reason I was closer to my grandfather than my own father.  Since I didn't have any sense of the stigma that surrounded my fathers illness, because I didn't even know he was ill, I was able to see my father for who he was, and not just a walking illness, which is what our society thinks of people with mental illnesses. Because of that, I knew that he was responsible for the consequences of his decisions, and I blame him for not telling me. The stigma of mental illness effects me deeply. That's why I made this thread and want everybody to agree with me.    

    I think that you describing mentally ill people as "these types" is an effect of the progressive era mentality that tries to categorize every single element of our society into subgroups. With this system in place, they can decipher which subgroup is the most mentally fit to be an authority on how society should be run. It somehow always seems that those who are the most efficient at categorizing us, always seem to be in the "most fit" group. Perhaps some day, our society will see mentally ill people as people rather than as illnesses. Me referring to mentally ill people as such is not a categorization of them, because they do have an illness that physically affects their brain. That's a psychological truth, and psychology is science. You referring to them as "these types" allows no room for seeing them as people who are affected by an illness, instead, "these types" are the illness among us. That's a sociological categorization, and sociology is not a science, it's just a method of categorization. I fail to see how discrimination against people with mental illnesses is any different than discrimination against ethnic groups, or socioeconomic status. Stigmas affect everybody in our society. These stigmas are more dangerous to our society than the things they discriminate against.          

    It seems you are privy to some kind of conspiracy among the mentally ill to overrun our society? That sounds like some interesting reading for us all when you post a link. Please, do tell. Just know that if you try to broaden the term "mentally ill", to "mentally unwell", I will pick through every last detail of the measurement of what's actually considered "mentally ill". Could you give a more accurate definition of "mentally unwell", and how it differs, or resembles "mental illness"? Also know that I will deconstruct any variations of mental illness, and any portrayals of "anti-social behaviors" will not pass the examination of what constitutes a mental illness. Mental illnesses physically effect someone's brain. They cause deterioration of brain tissue. Social disorders are just people who lack social skills. Social disorders cause no physical effects of the brain. The inability of differentiating the two is a common problem in our society, and it seems that you have made the same misconception. 

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/nurturing-self-compassion/201705/the-catastrophic-effects-mental-health-stigma

           https://www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/May-2017/How-You-Can-Stop-Mental-Illness-Stigma

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1489832/#!po=6.81818

    https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/a-to-z/s/stigma-and-discrimination

    https://seechange.ie/2013/07/29/the-effect-of-stigma/

    https://www.psychologicalscience.org/publications/mental-illness-stigma.html

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/mental-illness/in-depth/mental-health/art-20046477

    https://www.nami.org/Blogs/NAMI-Blog/October-2017/Stigma-Affects-Everyone-Even-Doctors

    https://www.socialsolutions.com/blog/mental-health-stigmas-three-consequences/

    https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/servicesandsupport/stigma-discrimination-and-mental-illness
  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited September 2
    @piloteer

    You almost romanticize schizophrenia into a condition that’s desirable when it’s anything but , it’s a mental illness and I see it as such , the labeling of such illnesses is necessary and  if you feel it’s discriminatory to do so you’re displaying a form of denialism just because you had a parent with this illness and you find it offensive for some peculiar reason to label the illness because of shame perhaps.

    People with this illness should not have children and I think it’s highly irresponsible that most do and it’s totally unfair on the children.

    LOL schizophrenia is rebranded now as a “social disorder” by you how hilarious, the rest of your post has you doing your usual as in accusing me of saying what I’ve never said just because of your emotionalism regarding the topic in hand 

    Maybe you could rail against the Mayo Clinic for labeling schizophrenia a mental illness?


    Mental illness, also called mental health disorders, refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors.Jun 8, 2019


    Schizophrenia is a chronic and severe mental disorder that affects how a person thinks, feels, and behaves. People with schizophrenia may seem like they have lost touch with reality. Although schizophrenia is not as common as other mental disorders, the symptoms can be very disabling

    https://www.brightquest.com/blog/caring-parent-schizophrenia-top-3-tips-balancing-support-self-care/


    As a child of a parent with schizophrenia,it is likely that you were profoundly affected by your experience of growing up with a sick parent. Now, as an adult, you are not only left grappling with the wounds the illness inflicted during your formative years, but you must now negotiate the complex dynamics of being the adult child of someone with a severe mental health disorder.



  • @Dee

    The only thing that profoundly effected me as a child was my parents not telling me about my fathers illness. I wasn't abused, or subjected to violence. Why would I have been anyway? There's no proof that schizophrenia renders a person incapable of being a proper parent. One thing that is still missing from your argument that you claimed you could provide studies which demonstrate that children are somehow more prone to abuse, or being put into dangerous situations simply because of a schizophrenic parent. Where are the studies which suggest mentally ill people should not have children? Another thing we were promised by you was the evidence that proves mentally ill people are conspiring to overrun our society. Was it not you who claimed "our societies (would) be run by people displaying totally irrational behaviors"? We still have no evidence of any conspiracies regarding mentally ill people. Just an assertion by you that it will happen. In fact, we have nothing in the way of proof to back your argument at all. Some may consider that an argument based solely on emotions.   

    I never claimed schizophrenia wasn't a mental illness, nor did I romanticize it in any manner. Everybody on here can clearly see that I mentioned several times that it is a mental illness that physically affects the brain, so I would have no reason to rail against the mayo clinic for labeling schizophrenia as such. We are suspiciously lacking a definition from you on what constitutes "mentally unwell" also. Feel free to clarify your personal measurement of what mental illness, or what being mentally unwell is, and how they differ, or how they are similar. I'm arguing that the social-behavioral aspects of mental illnesses like schizophrenia are caused by the social stigmas associated with mental illness. Psychological studies back my argument, unlike yours.   

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1489832/#!po=6.81818

    Studies also show that people with mental illnesses are more often the victims of violent crimes rather than the perpetrators. We have no evidence from you that proves the need to label people as mentally ill, and they should be separated from the rest of society. Again, all we have from you is a simple assertion with no evidence to prove it. If you feel that stigma is not the leading influence in the social-behavioral issues associated with mental illness, you’re displaying a form of denialism. It's backed by studies. When will we get any studies from you that back any of your assertions?

    https://jech.bmj.com/content/70/3/223

    • Can you provide studies that suggest people with schizophrenia, or mental illnesses are not capable of being parents?

    • Can you provide evidence which demonstrates children with schizophrenic parents are more susceptible of abuse or violent behavior?

    • Can you provide evidence that proves children with schizophrenic parents, or any mental illnesses are prone to having a lower quality of life?  

    • Can show us studies that suggest the stigmas associated with mental illness are not the leading factor in the violent behavior associated with mental illness?

    • Can you provide evidence that proves there is a conspiracy among the mentally ill to overrun our society? 




  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited September 3
    @piloteer

    When you honestly address what I’ve stated and stop attributing things I didn’t say into your replies I will address you , dishonestly stating what you claim I’ve said is rather annoying and unfair 

    Here is a medically accepted assessment of schizophrenia..........

    Schizophrenia is a chronic and severe mental disorder that affects how a person thinks, feels, and behaves. People with schizophrenia may seem like they have lost touch with reality. Although schizophrenia is not as common as other mental disorders, the symptoms can be very disabling

    If you think it ok to leave children in the care of such people I disagree , if you think such people are fit to run our societies I disagree, if you think mentally unwell people are demonized by society in some way well that’s another issue as I don’t demonize them in any way I recognize them for what they are mentally unwell and unfit to mind my kids or work in positions where their behavior may affect others in the work environment this is a basic courtesy extended to all 


     
    Here is what my opening statement said regarding the concept of insanity......


    The concept of insanity is necessary to protect others from possible harm from these types or we would think it ok to leave children with a schizophrenic mother or let our societies be run by people displaying totally irrational behaviors

    We need at least a basic means of measuring what’s deemed sane and insane behaviors and those displaying such as safeguards in our societies , the systems while not totally effective are effective to an extent and most of us have a working knowledge of what insanity looks like when confronted with such
  • In my opinion, the vast majority of people (me included) behave irrationally the majority of the time. To a well oiled robot, all humans might seem as being completely insane, acting out of touch with reality and letting their imagination run wild, clouding the vision of the real world.

    As children, we have very few assumptions about the world; when we encounter something new, we try to understand it, and we do not hold it against anyone. As we grow up, we learn a lot of things that we assume to be true for various reasons, and our vision becomes clouded with labels, assumptions and guesses.

    There is an amazing guy, Nick Vujicic, who was born with no limbs. He told a story once about how a little kid hugged him: he found a way to embrace him despite his lack of limbs, with no judgement whatsoever. In this regard, children are much more objective than adults; most adults, when seeing Nick, immediately start labelling him as "disabled", and will treat him either with dismissal, or with obnoxious patronization.

    I think we should be more open to other people, even when they are very different from us, to the point where they do not see the world the same way as we see it. It is the only way to be logical: to never make far-fetched assumptions and to not put labels on everything, and, instead, to try to see everything for what it is, regardless of what we expect it to be.

    At the same time, there are legitimate debilitating conditions that are treatable. It would be a disservice to affected people to treat them as equals and never address the issues; if the issues are fixable, then they should be fixed. If they are not, then that is a different matter - but, unless a diagnosis is made, we do not know if they are.
    piloteer
  • Insane question.
    Plaffelvohfenpiloteer
  • piloteerpiloteer 467 Pts
    edited September 3
    @MayCaesar

    Just so we're clear here, I have no qualms with diagnosing mental illnesses. They are debilitating diseases that physically effect the brain. I don't think the medical community has malicious intent when they diagnose someone with a disease that will certainly affect their way of life. My qualm is with the social stigmas associated with mental illness. I also believe that if someone is incapable of driving, or properly caring for children, or any situation where any sort of responsibility is needed, they shouldn't be allowed to do it if they truly cannot. Outside of that, if someone with a mental illness can do those things, they shouldn't be judged based on our feelings of their illness, or judged based on other people with mental illnesses who cannot do those things. They should be judged on their merit. 

    You do have an understanding of what I'm talking about, but there's more to this discussion than just the mentally ill population. It's a little more nuanced than just the aspect you thoughtfully  addressed. This discussion is about the concept of insanity as a whole. We (the royal we) often label people as crazy even though they have no mental illness whatsoever. We label people who may have no social skills and categorize them as mentally ill, even though they don't suffer from any mental illness at all. I find this profoundly dangerous for our society. So much so, I feel it may possibly destroy the very fabric of our society. It's so easy to be labeled insane simply because you don't "fit in". We could potentially be labeled insane because we have extreme political views. 

    Another aspect of this discussion is the idea that "insane" people aren't in control of their actions. It's absurd to tell anyone that they aren't in control of their actions, first and foremost, because they are. We are all in control of our actions. Secondly, if someone is told they aren't  in control of their actions, then they could surmise that they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions, because they can't help it. I don't believe anybody in our society deserves that privilege, even the mentally ill,  and thus far, the US justice system also agrees with me. I think it is an even more profound disservice to the mentally ill to assert our inaccurate stereotypes of the mentally ill, or socially inept are not in control of their actions, because they will act as if they aren't in control of their actions. And then there are those who think all of society is insane. Whoa, watch out, now we're all not in control of our actions.            





     

                


    MayCaesar
  • @Dee

    I think it's fairly easy to come to my conclusions about your argument. Just in case, let's do a little litmus test, shall we? 

    Do you believe all schizophrenic people, or mentally ill people are incapable of being proper parents?

    Do you believe all schizophrenic people, or mentally ill people should not procreate?

    Do you believe all mentally ill people should not have the same civil liberties that are allotted to us all? 

    Do you believe a social measurement of what constitutes being mentally "unwell" should be in place beyond any medical measurement of such, and should be enforced accordingly?

    Do you believe the social stigmas associated with mental illness have no effect on the behavior of mentally ill people, and they will be violent or irrational regardless of these stigmas?

    Do you believe that if left unchecked, mentally ill people will run our society?

    If you have answered yes to these questions, then my counter argument toward you will remain as it is. We still have yet to see from you any evidence that proves mentally ill people are always incapable of being proper parents. Your definition of what schizophrenia is offers no validity to your argument. It says "people with schizophrenia MAY SEEM LIKE they have lost touch with reality. It doesn't say they actually have lost touch with reality. It also doesn't say that this is true with them all the time. It also doesn't say that people without mental illnesses are not ever effected by those circumstances. It also most certainly does not say that people with schizophrenia or mental illnesses cannot be proper parents, or should not have children. If you can find a study that lends credence to your argument, without the need for your unscientific emotional feelings toward mental illness, that would help your case significantly. 

    It also appears that you are ill-equipped to provide evidence that demonstrates how or why mentally ill people could run our society if a system of measurement of their illness isn't in place.  We are also still unsure of what you mean by mentally "unwell". That could simply be anybody you don't like for all we know. Feel free to add some clarity to your argument if you think I've come to the wrong conclusions.      



  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited September 4
    @piloteer

    Totally ignoring what I’ve repeated several times seems to me at this stage to confirm what I stated originally as in you just want people to agree with your position and are not interested in different opinions , here Again is what I stated .......


    When you honestly address what I’ve stated and stop attributing things I didn’t say into your replies I will address you , dishonestly stating what you claim I’ve said is rather annoying and unfair 

    Here is a medically accepted assessment of schizophrenia..........

    Schizophrenia is a chronic and severe mental disorder that affects how a person thinks, feels, and behaves. People with schizophrenia may seem like they have lost touch with reality. Although schizophrenia is not as common as other mental disorders, the symptoms can be very disabling

    If you think it ok to leave children in the care of such people I disagree , if you think such people are fit to run our societies I disagree, if you think mentally unwell people are demonized by society in some way well that’s another issue as I don’t demonize them in any way I recognize them for what they are mentally unwell and unfit to mind my kids or work in positions where their behavior may affect others in the work environment this is a basic courtesy extended to all 


     
    Here is what my opening statement said regarding the concept of insanity......

    The concept of insanity is necessary to protect others from possible harm from these types or we would think it ok to leave children with a schizophrenic mother or let our societies be run by people displaying totally irrational behavior

    We need at least a basic means of measuring what’s deemed sane and insane behaviors and those displaying such as safeguards in our societies , the systems while not totally effective are effective to an extent and most of us have a working knowledge of what insanity looks like when confronted with such

    Regards your so called “little litmus test “
    • I think it's fairly easy to come to my conclusions about your argument. Just in case, let's do a little litmus test, shall we? 

    • Do you believe all schizophrenic people, or mentally ill people are incapable of being proper parents?
    I think the damage and mental scaring of the children they irresponsibly and selfishly bring into the world confirm this , this would have being apparent to you if you even read the links I provided but as I’ve stated you’re not interested in others opinions

    • Do you believe all schizophrenic people, or mentally ill people should not procreate?
    I think it extremely selfish of them to do so but I cannot prevent them from selfishly doing so 
    • Do you believe all mentally ill people should not have the same civil liberties that are allotted to us all?
    In your country your very own president blamed the mentally ill on mass shootings and school shootings and as a nation you’s collectively use this argument every time such happens as you’s mostly support gun rights , so do you think it’s just fine to allow the mentally ill the right to bear arms and if so why? 

    I would not allow the mentally unwell certain rights unless they had a certification from medical experts that could demonstrate why they should be allowed certain rights
    • Do you believe a social measurement of what constitutes being mentally "unwell" should be in place beyond any medical measurement of such, and should be enforced accordingly?
    I don’t know what that even means as it makes no sense 
    • Do you believe the social stigmas associated with mental illness have no effect on the behavior of mentally ill people, and they will be violent or irrational regardless of these stigmas?
    What is a “social stigma” regards mental illness? Give me examples of such and I will respond
    • Do you believe that if left unchecked, mentally ill people will run our society?
    No , where did I state that



    Do you believe the mentally unwell should be allowed carry guns?

    Do you not think it selfish that the mentally unwell bring children into this world?

    Do you think the mentally unwell are being demonized when the military turns them down and if so why?

    Would you like a schizophrenic being the pilot of your long distance flight?

    Do you think mentally unwell people should be allowed mind children?

    Would you like a mentally unwell president running your country ....actually that question needs no answering 
  • piloteerpiloteer 467 Pts
    edited September 5
    @Dee

    It still seems you have no definite description of what "mentally unwell" is. I'm still confused if you mean mentally ill people with a disease that effects their brain, or do you mean social outcasts? Or do you consider those descriptions interchangeable? If that's the case, and you think they are interchangeable, that is why this thread is here. You are correct, I certainly do want people to agree with my position, and I have admitted to that. Just so we're clear though, it IS a debate site, and people who want people to agree with them, kinda just come with the scenery here.

    I did read the links you posted, but I seem to have missed any medical studies that provide evidence of the mentally ill being unfit for parenting. I shall check again if you'd like, I'm not always the most observant. OK, I'm back, and Ya; No, you have not provided any links to a medical study that verifies your claim that mentally ill people are unfit parents. Actually, the "bridge to recovery" link you've provided mentions "the impact of untreated parental mental illness", which suggests to me that the people who wrote that article believe that with proper treatment, mentally ill people can be fit parents. What I'm actually asking from you is a medical study which demonstrates a certain characteristic, or trait that is uniformly found in all mentally ill people, and why it causes them to be unfit parents. The attributes that you've given so far, are not solely associated with mental illness, and thus far, you haven't convinced me those attributes can't be diminished, or in some cases, eliminated with proper treatment. You also haven't proved that people who have mental illnesses are assured to have children with mental illnesses, so I'm not sure where the selfishness comes into play when mentally ill people have children. Most children born of parents with mental illnesses do not grow up to become mentally ill themselves. How exactly is it "extremely selfish" for them to have children, but it's not extremely selfish for others? What specific thing is it they do that causes the selfishness of them?      

       https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/after-trump-blames-mental-illness-for-mass-shootings-health-agencies-ordered-to-hold-all-posts-on-issue/2019/08/20/c4030e4c-c370-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html        

    stig·ma
    /ˈstiɡmə/
    noun
    noun: stigma; plural noun: stigmas; plural noun: stigmata
    1. 1.
      a mark of disgrace associated with a particular circumstance, quality, or person.
      "the stigma of having gone to prison will always be with me"
      synonyms:shame, disgrace, dishonor; More
      stain, taint, blot, blot on one's escutcheon, blemish, brand, mark, slur;
      literarysmirch
      "the stigma of bankruptcy"
      antonyms:honor, credit
    An example of a social stigma that's associated with mental illness is the one you pointed out how the US president claimed gun violence is caused by people with mental illnesses. It seems that we demonize the mentally ill for crimes committed by people who are not mentally ill. If it's actually shown that a mass shooter isn't mentally ill, it's still socially accepted that they are. We will change our perception of mental illness to label people or actions that are socially undesirable as insane, or caused by mental illness. I believe this is to preserve our perception of what sanity is, so we don't have to come to terms with the fact that sane people like us do terrible things. Profound and extreme ideological beliefs that lead to violence are not medical characteristics of mental illness though, so claiming that the actions of extremists are the actions of the mentally ill is a social stigma. Another stigma about mental illness is the belief that, regardless of no medical evidence to prove it, mentally ill people are unfit to be parents. Asserting that something is true without any evidence, and projecting that image of "truth" onto an entire portion of the population is a stigma. The idea that mentally ill people are more prone to violence is a social stigma as well. People with mental illness are 10 times more likely to be the victims of violence, and there's no evidence that shows mentally ill people are inherently more violent than those who aren't. 

    I'm not arguing that mentally ill people should be entrusted with responsibilities they're incapable of, so no, if anybody, including mentally ill people are deemed unfit for gun ownership, they should not have guns. This argument isn't an assertion that mentally ill people should have responsibilities they're incapable of doing. As I pointed out to my boy May, we have a system of merit when it comes to things that require responsibility. If we want to get technical, gun ownership is not a civil liberty that's allotted to every citizen. Gun ownership has really become more of a privileged responsibility in America. Outside of gun ownership, I can't logically think of any other civil liberty that a mentally ill person would need a doctor's authorized certification for. What other civil liberties do you think the mentally ill would need to be certified for?   



    Do you believe a social measurement of what constitutes being mentally "unwell" should be in place beyond any medical measurement of such, and should be enforced accordingly?                 

    What I meant by this was, do you think medical studies on mental illness are not what we should go by when it comes to deciding who is or isn't "insane"? Do you think what "crazy" actually is, and who is "crazy", should be decided by the public, and not the medical community? Do you think public fears of "insane people" should drive policy on treating mental illness, instead of informed policy making?


  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited September 6
    @piloteer

    I will respond to your questions when you do me the courtesy of doing likewise as in I specifically asked several , could you address them individually as I did yours?


    You keep saying disingenuously you don’t know what I mean by “mentally unwell” when I clearly stated .......


    Here is a medically accepted assessment of schizophrenia..........

    Schizophrenia is a chronic and severe mental disorder that affects how a person thinks, feels, and behaves. People with schizophrenia may seem like they have lost touch with reality. Although schizophrenia is not as common as other mental disorders, the symptoms can be very disabling

    Regards other forms of mental un-well-ness where did I mention social outcasts are well or unwell mentally?
  • piloteerpiloteer 467 Pts
    edited September 6
    @Dee

    My apologies. You're right, I didn't answer your questions properly.

    Q: Do you believe the mentally unwell should be allowed carry guns?

    A: I did address this one, but to be sure, the answer here is no. I didn't create this thread to               argue mentally ill people should be given responsibilities they can't carry out properly. 

    Q: Do you not think it selfish that the mentally unwell bring children into this world?

    A: No!! There's no evidence that says children with mentally ill parents are subjected to abuse           more so than children who have parents with no mental illness. It's also true that most                  children with mentally ill parents do not become mentally ill themselves. It's also true that            people with no mental illness can have children who later become mentally ill, so the idea of       winnowing mental illness out of the gene pool is a fantasy.

    Q: Do you think the mentally unwell are being demonized when the military turns them down            and. if so why?

    A: No!! If the military needs a specific skill set, and a mentally ill person cannot carry the tasks         out, the military shouldn't be forced to take them. I do believe the military should decide on an
        individual basis on whether a person can join. So, if a mentally ill person cannot carry out the       tasks needed by the military, they shouldn't be allowed. 
      
    Q: Would you like a schizophrenic being the pilot of your long distance flight?

    A: I don't fly, so it wouldn't matter to me who was flying the plane, I myself will still be having a         major panic attack either way. If a mentally ill person cannot carry out the tasks required to           be a pilot, they shouldn't be allowed to. If they can, let them fly. 

    Q: Do you think mentally unwell people should be allowed mind children?

    A: Yes. Mentally ill people are capable of being parents, so they should be allowed to mind               children. This still can be decided on an individual basis. Teachers aren't automatically fired         from  their jobs if they have anxiety issues. Anxiety issues are a form of mental illness also.
     
    The term mentally "unwell" isn't medically accepted, and all you're providing for an answer of what mentally unwell is, is a medically accepted description of schizophrenia. Does that mean that you only consider schizophrenic people mentally unwell? It seems to be a term that's purposely vague, so any "undesirables" can easily be thrown into the same category as mentally ill people simply because they don't "fit in". It's really just a term to describe people we think are strange. Eccentricity, or social ineptness, is not a mental illness though.      
  • DeeDee 703 Pts




    A: No!! There's no evidence that says children with mentally ill parents are subjected to abuse           more so than children who have parents with no mental illness. It's also true that most                  children with mentally ill parents do not become mentally ill themselves. It's also true that            people with no mental illness can have children who later become mentally ill, so the idea of       winnowing mental illness out of the gene pool is a fantasy.




    I never mentioned abuse as in a physical sense but they certainly suffer from mental abuse , I also never mentioned the need to winnowing out mental illness from the gene pool desirable and all as it may be.......


    FROM PSYCHOLOGY TODAY 


    For children who grow up in the care of a mentally ill parent, life is often filled with anxiety, uncertainty, and vigilance.  It is not unusual for their needs to be neglected — and they may even have to “compete” with their parent’s symptoms to receive care themselves.  It also poses risk factors for problems that can emerge later in life, including emotional and psychological disturbances, learning challenges, and poorer overall functioning.  In addition, there are a host of social challenges that these children may encounter, such as social rejection, troubled relationships, marital problems, and family dissolution.

    What are the core experiences for people who have been raised by a parent with mental illness?  In a study led by psychologist Lynne McCormack of the University of Newcastle, she and her team interviewed adult children of an unwell parent, ranging from depression to schizoaffective disorder They then analyzed the transcripts to see what salient themes would surface.  The collaborators found an overarching theme, a fractured journey of growth to adulthood, which broke down into six core experiences. 




    A: Yes. Mentally ill people are capable of being parents, so they should be allowed to mind               children. This still can be decided on an individual basis. Teachers aren't automatically fired         from  their jobs if they have anxiety issues. Anxiety issues are a form of mental illness also.


    Yes they’re allowed I never denied this but they are incredibly selfish bringing children into the world in my opinion


    I haven’t asked for people to be fired and would never ask for those suffering from anxiety to be fired I would hope they get supports they need and were treated accordingly, why do you keep making statements I never made and asking me to defend them?


     

    The term mentally "unwell" isn't medically accepted, and all you're providing for an answer of what mentally unwell is, is a medically accepted description of schizophrenia. 


    Yet you use the term “mentally ill” , to be mentally ill is to be mentally unwell and is widely accepted as such , mentally ill people present at hospitals surgeries etc , etc because they are mentally unwell.




    Does that mean that you only consider schizophrenic people mentally unwell? It seems to be a term that's purposely vague, so any "undesirables" can easily be thrown into the same category as mentally ill people simply because they don't "fit in". It's really just a term to describe people we think are strange. Eccentricity, or social ineptness, is not a mental illness though.     


    No I consider others mentally unwell also. I never deemed those with eccentricities , undesirables or the socially inept as mentally unwell nor am I making that case.


    Here you go again making out your thoughts are what I’m thinking regarding the subject , it’s most unfair and not conducive to a good exchange 

  • @piloteer ; "...what does changing your thoughts matter if everybody in society regards you as dangerous, and expects that you will eventually cause harm to someone?"

    I can certainly agree that mental health issues can be overly stigmatized. The same is true for HIV, for example, though. If we don't diagnose the problem then we cannot offer appropriate treatment.

    Changing the sufferers thoughts is very helpful in alleviating mental disorders. For example, a faulty cognition that often accompanies depression is blaming oneself for everything that goes wrong.

    "Not only do I feel that societies attitudes toward mental illness exacerbates, or perhaps even causes the problem of violent irrational behavior associated with mental illness"

    You are stigmatizing mental health issues here. Very few mental illnesses are associated with violence.

    "I also believe totally normal functioning people who don't have any illnesses can use the excuse of insanity to their advantage, and many will accept it"

    It has to be proven in criminal proceedings. If you say you did X because you are mentally unwell then people will like you less, because such behavior is to be expected to repeat.

    "How many among us consider people who commit mass shootings "crazy", simply because they commit mass shootings?... I think societies problem is not with mentally ill people, it's with our views toward the mentally ill, and what it actually means to be "crazy", because we are labeling totally sane people as crazy."

    I'm not sure that it is sane to make the decision to go out and murder people for fun. Someone who would consider such a thing is surely somehow mentally unwell.

    "Lets face it, just being socially awkward can get someone labeled "crazy". Maybe not among psychologists, but the bulk of society will be weary of someone simply because they're quiet."

    "Weird" or "creepy" are more likely descriptors. "Crazy" is normally misapplied to the more aggressive or eccentric types. If you personally are socially awkward I'd recommend doing regular exercise (because it biologically increases confidence). I'd also recommend learning social skills, for instance by using the YouTube channel "Charisma on Command". I used to be very introverted and socially awkward in my youth and overcame it with regular exercise and learning social skills.

    "How many loners simply snap because they aren't considered normal, but if they were subjected to a psychological screening, they'd be considered totally normal?"

    I imagine that the bullying that accompanies the perception is the issue, rather than the perception itself. It sadly is natural to view loners as outsiders.

    "Perhaps the problem is the concept of crazy itself."           

    How can we treat mental health issues if we don't diagnose them?

    "Leave us take note of Dee's argument, and how "@Dee mentions leaving children with a schizophrenic mother, is not ok. Dee never showed any evidence that proves all schizophrenic people are to unfit to be parents."

    Of course not all schizophrenic parents are unfit. Though if they are highly schizophrenic and a single parent I'd be inclined to agree, in the same way that a profoundly retarded (in the medical sense) single parent is incapable of looking after a child.

    "Notice how Dee refers to mentally ill people as "these types"."

    I don't see anything wrong with that phrasing. The implied meaning is "these types (of people)".
    Dee
  • @WinstonC

    You seem to have a tiny misunderstanding about my argument. I am in no way arguing that the medical community shouldn't label people as mentally ill, if they actually need to be treated for an illness. I'm arguing that the bulk of society has no real understanding of mental illness, and instead they rely on biases, and stereotypes. And society is also very bad at determining who actually is and isn't mentally ill. I absolutely agree that stigmas are associated with HIV, and that is most unsatisfactory. There's a common misconception today that HIV is no longer a problem in developed countries. But that is not true. I am arguing that all social stigmas cause problems, and if we learn to be accepting of all aspects of society, we could overcome huge problems we face in our society.   

    I have pointed out more than once that mentally ill people are not prone to violence, and I also pointed out that they are ten time more likely to be the victims of violence, rather than the perpetrators. I've also provided links to studies that demonstrate that. The violence that I believe is caused by social stigmas mostly relates to those who are  labeled mentally ill,  or "crazy" by society simply because they don't "fit in".   

     https://jech.bmj.com/content/70/3/223

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/after-trump-blames-mental-illness-for-mass-shootings-health-agencies-ordered-to-hold-all-posts-on-issue/2019/08/20/c4030e4c-c370-11e9-b5e4-54aa56d5b7ce_story.html

    Unfortunately, you yourself are ascribing to a social stigma by arguing mass shooters must be inherently "mentally unwell", even though psychological screenings of mass shooters only confirms 25% of them actually fit the medical description of being mentally ill. As I've pointed out before, violent extremism, and racism aren't symptoms of mental illness. I think it deeply bothers people to realize people just like them, who are not mentally ill whatsoever, are capable of horrific crimes against humanity. We all consider adolf hitler crazy, but it's unlikely he or any of the nazi top officials had any medically recognized mental illnesses, but we as a society put in place a safety net to protect our notions of sanity, and instead label them "crazy" to differentiate normal people from "crazy" people. I think perhaps it's time to come to terms with the fact that most horrific crimes against humanity are not committed by mentally ill people, they are done by perfectly normally functioning members of society, and sweeping them under the rug by calling them "crazy", does nothing to address the real issue. It seems the actually "crazy" people among us are the ones who don't have any kind of mental illness. Our perception of insanity is upside down. 

    Although your suggestions for social outcasts are helpful, perhaps you could give some helpful suggestions for the rest of society who refuse to be accepting of different people. I myself am not a social outcast. I'm very popular everywhere I go, because I'm simply an outstanding individual, and I'm terminally beautiful to boot. I just happen to be a rare social butterfly who stands up for the cause of social outcasts.                   
  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    @piloteer

    **I'm arguing that the bulk of society has no real understanding of mental illness, and instead they rely on biases, and stereotypes. And society is also very bad at determining who actually is and isn't mentally ill.


    But most of us rarely make judgements on such as the mentally ill don’t impact on the majorities lives , I don’t know anyone who deems someone mentally ill for me reason whatsoever.


    A guy approaches me and other artists screaming abuse every Sunday as we trade in our open air gallery  and demanding money,  not one of us has called him mentally ill although we realize he has problem and mostly think it’s drink or drug related this is not “stigmatizing “ the guy it’s giving an opinion on his mental as he presents to us weekly



    ** I am arguing that all social stigmas cause problems, and if we learn to be accepting of all aspects of society, we could overcome huge problems we face in our society.   


    I disagree , in my city we have hordes of Roma beggars the majority are petty thieves my wife’s handbag was robbed once and 2 failed attempts on top of such , in the first instance a policeman asked me “ do you know who robbed the bag “ I said yes “ Roma gypsies “ he said “that’s discrimination “ I told him he was talking B S his senior officer agreed with my assessment this sort of P C nonsense creates more problems than it solves.


    How do you honestly accept all aspects of society and why would you want to?  



    **I have pointed out more than once that mentally ill people are not prone to violence


    But no one is saying they are violent or more so than you or I , I claimed children of the mentally ill suffer this is a fact , you keep turning this into physical violence a point I never made 




    **Unfortunately, you yourself are ascribing to a social stigma by arguing mass shooters must be inherently "mentally unwell", even though psychological screenings of mass shooters only confirms 25% of them actually fit the medical description of being mentally ill. As I've pointed out before, violent extremism, and racism aren't symptoms of mental illness. 


    That’s not “ascribing to a social stigma”, anyone that carries out a mass shooting is mentally unwell , ideas of extreme violence that’s a constant mind state is a mental illness despite any P C terminology .


    Why are you bringing race into this?


    **We all consider adolf hitler crazy, but it's unlikely he or any of the nazi top officials had any medically recognized mental illnesses, but we as a society put in place a safety net to protect our notions of sanity, and instead label them "crazy" to differentiate normal people from "crazy" people.


    Yes funny that a man who’s vision of the ideal world including the gassing of every last Jew on earth would be deemed insane.



    **It seems the actually "crazy" people among us are the ones who don't have any kind of mental illness


    How so? Gives examples of such. Here you are telling others not to “stigmatize” yet you are doing it now how’s that work? 


    **Our perception of insanity is upside down.  


    It’s actually not , thankfully for our continued safety most us recognize this



    **I just happen to be a rare social butterfly who stands up for the cause of social outcasts.                   


    Good luck with that , there’s plenty of bleeding hearts over here who support these “social outcasts” who rob , cheat and steal and use P C terms like “disenfranchised people” who deserve our respect as we should embrace “ cultural diversity “ and other equally inane P C terminology which stops people saying what they want to say as in read below ......



    For more than 14 years Natasha Tracyhas been writing about her experience living with bipolar disorder. Early on in her career, a reader criticized the tone and language of one of her pieces about the condition.

    “The commenter felt that because I had a large platform on which to speak, it was my duty to speak in a way that was politically correct,” Tracy said. “Because this was so early on my in writing career, I was actually hurt by this comment because the commenter didn’t appreciate my desire to express myself and my experiences in the most honest and authentic way possible.”

    Over time these responses became common. Tracy was too accustomed to such feedback to feel hurt. Nonetheless, she did speak out against language policing and those who wanted to stifle her voice. Tracy wrote several pieces that addressed the growing presence of political correctness in the expression of mental health, including “Why It Doesn’t Matter If I Call Myself Crazy.”





  • @Dee

    Ummm, you kinda went over a cliff on that last argument. It doesn't correlate at all. We should not embrace social outcasts, or the mentally ill because Roma gypsies live near you?!?!? What's a Roma gypsy anyway? I get the feeling that knowing what they are, won't make them relevant here anyway.  You didn't properly dispute any of my arguments. Are you feverish lately? You usually can make a little more of a robust argument than that.  

    I said society has no real understanding of mental illness, and we are bad at determining who is or isn't mentally ill. You said.

    ****"But most of us rarely make judgements on such as the mentally ill don’t impact on the majorities lives , I don’t know anyone who deems someone mentally ill for me reason whatsoever.***

    First off, that does nothing to prove society is good at understanding and determining mental illness. If anything, you've demonstrated why society is so bad at determining who is mentally ill. If most of society were not impacted by mental illness, then we would hardly ever come into contact with mentally ill people, so it would negate any purpose for judgment. And if we hardly ever judge, then that would make our track record on judging pretty bad. But fortunately for you, that argument is incorrect anyway. Mental illness impacts every single persons life, unless you do not interact with the public at all, and of course if that's the case, you may be considered mentally ill yourself. 1 in 4 people have some sort of mental illness. Not all of them are permanent, and very few are severe, but it's very common. An example of a judgement would be arguing that mentally ill people are selfish when they procreate, even though no medical studies, or psychological treatment foundations say that's true. And oh my gosh, don't put up that same damb definition of schizophrenia to try and make your point. It's got NO traction. Nowhere in that definition does it say schizophrenic people should not be parents, or their illness can't be treated. But you somehow came up with a one size fits all observation which is, mentally ill people are unworthy of parenting.  Do ya thinks maybe that that, in and of itself, is a judgement? And it happens to be based off of no evidence at all :o, except that you read a snippet of a description of schizophrenia. It's kind of peculiar that you don't post the whole article where you got that description, because if you read a little bit further, you come into this snippet.****" People with schizophrenia may cope with symptoms throughout their lives, but treatment helps many to recover sufficiently and pursue their life goals. Researchers are using new research tools to understand the causes of schizophrenia and develop more effective treatments.***** If you read the whole article, you will come to the different methods of treatments for schizophrenia. The people who wrote that article would not agree with your assertion that schizophrenic people are selfish for having children. It seems your sentiments are solely based off of your emotions, and I guess that should suffice for the rest of us, why??

    https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/schizophrenia/index.shtml

      I'm not sure if you know anything about British people, but I have learned in history class that they are an empire. Have you ever heard the saying; the sun never sets on the British empire? That's because they had vast colonies on every continent on earth, and they exploited the people's and resources of those colonies, and forced the colonized populations to swear allegiance to them, and they threatened them with death if the locals did not abide by them. They are a mostly white, arian, protestant country. Do you know what other warring country had those specific descriptions? I think you do ;). I guess if we use your method of determining acceptable social factors by only looking at specific factors and ignoring all the rest, it would be safe to assume that British people are prone to violence, and war, and racism. I guess it also would be logical to surmise that British people are extremely selfish for having children, because it populates the earth with warmongers. Do you see how or why none of this paragraph makes any sense?     

    I understand you never mentioned violence when it comes to schizophrenic people being parents. You sampled a comment that wasn't directed at you, it was directed at WinstonC, and you tried to dispute it as if I was addressing you. It was about stereotypes about mentally ill people, and violence just happens to be one of them.

    Yes. I honestly accept all aspects of society. How can we deny they exist? I'm not arguing that we have to let them do things that disrupt our civility. I'm just saying that every aspect of society that we don't like, is still a part of us all. I think we can quickly find that not everyone we dislike will secede to our misanthropic sentiments. They will resist, and with good reason, and we will find all of us in a state of war. Now, before you accuse me of accusing you of hating all of humankind, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that it is our unwillingness to be accepting of all people that causes more violence than any single denominations of our society does. 

    I'm not quite sure how this discussion is "PC" related, but even if it is, just calling PC, doesn't do anything to dispute the claims I have made. Hey, it might have a PC agenda, but that doesn't make it incorrect.    

    This argument also has nothing to do with linguistics, or limiting peoples freedom of speech. I'm happy to see Ms/Mrs Tracy stood up for her rights and used the terms she wants to use to describe herself. I think it's shameful that others would expect anything else from her. I'm also happy to see that you are able to identify with a person who is mentally ill, and also is being victimized for using her own linguistics. I believe we would be able to identify with most aspects of mental illness if we were more accepting. But we don't need to sympathise with every aspect of their nature, but we can empathize. They are us, and we are them. 

              

     


  • DeeDee 703 Pts
    edited September 10



    Ummm, you kinda went over a cliff on that last argument. It doesn't correlate at all. We should not embrace social outcasts, or the mentally ill because Roma gypsies live near you?!?!? What's a Roma gypsy anyway? I get the feeling that knowing what they are, won't make them relevant here anyway.  You didn't properly dispute any of my arguments. Are you feverish lately? You usually can make a little more of a robust argument than that.  


    I didn’t actually , you wish to embrace social outcasts be my guest,  I’ve no desire to do so and I never mentioned Roma gypsies living near me had anything to do with whether I “embrace” them or not.

    It’s rather strange you’ve never heard of gypsies, and indeed my point regarding them is entirely relevant , I get the feeling you will do your usual and ignore any arguments that  challenge your position either way

    You talk about biases , stereotypes and stigmatization but ignore any attempts at counters to your position , incidentally you may proceed with your  piece to @winston as you totally ignore most  counters  to any of your points such is your need to push your agenda, the only reason I made comment was because Winston mentioned me and you’re going down the same road with him as you did me.

    You constantly re-word every argument made and turn it into an another argument altogether, I’m done here 

  • @piloteer

    "I am in no way arguing that the medical community shouldn't label people as mentally ill, if they actually need to be treated for an illness."

    In that case the concept of insanity is necessary and helpful to society.

    "I'm arguing that the bulk of society has no real understanding of mental illness, and instead they rely on biases, and stereotypes."

    100% agreed.

    "I am arguing that all social stigmas cause problems, and if we learn to be accepting of all aspects of society, we could overcome huge problems we face in our society."

    Some things should be stigmatized, extreme examples to illustrate the point could be murder and rape.

    "The violence that I believe is caused by social stigmas mostly relates to those who are  labeled mentally ill,  or "crazy" by society simply because they don't "fit in"."  

    It's very interesting that the linked Washington Post article states, in refutation of the claim that mass shootings as related to mental health, that narcissism is commonly linked to mass shootings. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a mental disorder. So the Washington Post is citing mental health issues as "other factors rather than mental health issues". Another factor cited was a strong sense of resentment. If you are incredibly resentful then you are not mentally healthy. Nothing good comes out of such a mindset.

    "Unfortunately, you yourself are ascribing to a social stigma by arguing mass shooters must be inherently "mentally unwell", even though psychological screenings of mass shooters only confirms 25% of them actually fit the medical description of being mentally ill."

    Most (if not all) mass shooters are men. The base rate for mental illness among men is 15% (1). To state that 25% of mass shooters are diagnosable as mentally ill is to acknowledge that there is a link to mental health.

    "As I've pointed out before, violent extremism, and racism aren't symptoms of mental illness."

    Of course they aren't symptoms of a mental illness (though violence is strongly linked to APD, for example). I said that people who commit mass shootings are clearly mentally unwell, not that they are all suffering from mental disorders.

    "I think it deeply bothers people to realize people just like them, who are not mentally ill whatsoever, are capable of horrific crimes against humanity."

    That's for sure. Fear not, I am completely up to speed on this point.

    "We all consider adolf hitler crazy, but it's unlikely he or any of the nazi top officials had any medically recognized mental illnesses"

    Narcissism and sociopathic psychopathy immediately spring to mind when I think of Adolf Hitler. Any speculation on that would break the Goldwater rule, however.

    "but we as a society put in place a safety net to protect our notions of sanity, and instead label them "crazy" to differentiate normal people from "crazy" people."

    Equally, if one thinks they are 100% sane, then they don't understand themselves.

    "I think perhaps it's time to come to terms with the fact that most horrific crimes against humanity are not committed by mentally ill people, they are done by perfectly normally functioning members of society"

    Yes, they are committed both by normal people and mentally ill people.

    "Although your suggestions for social outcasts are helpful, perhaps you could give some helpful suggestions for the rest of society who refuse to be accepting of different people."

    I don't believe society does "refuse to be accepting of different people".

    "I myself am not a social outcast. I'm very popular everywhere I go, because I'm simply an outstanding individual, and I'm terminally beautiful to boot. I just happen to be a rare social butterfly who stands up for the cause of social outcasts."     

    I'm not sure I should even touch these statements, but you might want to inject some humility into that persona of yours. In any case thank you for the discussion.

    Sources:
    (1) https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/mental-illness.shtml


  • piloteerpiloteer 467 Pts
    edited September 14
    @WinstonC

    How does it become true that the concept of insanity is necessary because I am arguing that the medical community should be identifying and diagnosing mental illness? It seems your reasoning is a little incomplete here. This argument is about the flawed social standards when it comes to mental illness, and the concept of insanity as a whole. Never did I say the medical community should label people insane, and as far as I'm concerned, the use of the term in a legal setting should also be abolished. The problem of "insanity" is that it exists as a concept at all. Anybody can be labeled insane. It is used to label people who society doesn't like, and even though it's thought of in the same manner as mental illness, it has no juxtaposition when it comes to actual mental illness. 

    Stigmas are aimed at people, not actions such as rape, or murder. I'm not arguing that we should accept rape or murder. Most often, people who commit murder or rape don't do so because they've been shunned by society, or it's a social stigma that caused them to do it. This discussion is about the difference between actual mental illnesses, and those who are labeled "insane" by society because they don't fit in, and the ramifications of the stigmas for both. I'm not arguing that we should accept criminal actions. People who commit any crimes should be dealt with in accordance with the law. 

    The Washington post was incorrect about narcissism always being a factor, if that is indeed what it said. It's been shown that many mass shooters have insecurities and low self-esteem or self-worth. Narcissistic personality disorder is not common among all mass shooters. There are no underlying mental disorders among all mass shooters. Only 3% of mass shootings are committed by people with severe mental illnesses, and the Washington post article doesn't change that. Only 25% of mass shootings can be tied to even a minor mental disorder. That leaves 75% of mass murders that aren't committed by mental illness, so I fail to see how I've   acknowledged that there is a link to mental health. Although it's rare, mass shootings are done by women as well. The attack at the YouTube headquarters in California was done by a woman. Mass shootings done by women are actually more prevalent than mass shootings done by people with severe mental illnesses.   

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/5-types-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/201908/is-it-guns-or-mental-illness

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/04/youtube-shooting-gun-attacks-in-the-us-are-rarely-carried-out-by-women

    Perhaps YOU could clarify what your definition of being mentally "unwell" means. It seems like an umbrella term with no objective description, which can be defined differently by every person who uses the term. I'm starting to think that the "unwell" aspect of this discussion is exactly what I'm talking about here. It seems curiously close to a term called "undesirables". I'm sure we can both agree that the concept of undesirable people hasn't disappeared from our society, only the term is fading. How does mentally "unwell" differ from "undesirable", and what about mentally "unwell"  is uniform among every persons interpretation of the word? 

    I'm not going to lie, I think you have a pretty good understanding of what I'm talking about here, which can serve as a foothold for consensus. My personal belief is that our tendency to neatly pack everybody into some sort of social grouping is a huge problem. But I don't think that's the underlying cause. What are your thoughts, and do you have any feelings on how all of society can have a better understanding of all of society?       
               

       
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