Abortion isn't okay no matter what

Plaffelvohfen

I think that abortion is ok no matter what... My position is as valid as yours... 

Dee

Denying a woman the right to bodily autonomy isn’t ok no matter what 

SkepticalOne

seriously10 said:

personally we all know that people are going to start talking about rape. it is a horrible horrible thing but it's not the baby that did it, just because someone does a wrong to you doesn't mean you have to do wrong. abortion is murder and the worse part is the baby can't do anything. just because u can see the child doesn't mean it's not living. a HEARTBEAT means LIFE. what's death? when the heartbeat stops. what's living when there is a heartbeat

I don't  accept rape/incest needs to be discussed to justify abortion. I don't accept abortion is murder. I don't accept (by default) a baby/child exists in any womb. I don't accept a heartbeat is the only defining characteristic of life, and especially not personhood (where rights are attached).

There's not a lot of room for us to find common ground here!

MayCaesar

Strong property rights include the right to own one's body, regardless of what is happening inside it, and a living organism growing there does not override this rule. Abortion and property rights are one and alike, and you cannot have one without the other.

I find it curious that abortion is very popular among anti-capitalists, who do not believe in property rights and think that the state should decide who can own what, and very unpopular among capitalists, who are supposed to hold property rights dear. It is one of those political anomalies the source of which is hard to trace.

AlofRI

@MayCaesar ;

I agree mostly with your first paragraph, the second is a bit hard to take. First of all I don't think abortion is "popular" with many people AT ALL. It is more of a necessary evil to most people. It is a CHOICE, and, MOST often a hard choice. It often considers the burden it will put on those that already have a "life", that need to eat, that need medicine, that are struggling. Maybe those that MUST keep working for those already here. It could be that they themselves just can't take another mouth to feed or that another will be "the straw that breaks the camel's back" as far as the existing family is concerned.

That's the abortion part. Next is the programmed part about "anti-capitalists". There are a few, I know, that are "radical left wingers" "FEW" being the key word. I don't know of many on the left that could be called "anti-capitalists". The vast majority of Americans WANT successful capitalism, we just don't want capitalism to run the country because THAT would be against the Constitution and the Bill of Rights! This country is supposed to be OF, BY, and FOR the PEOPLE, not the corporations! Regulations are largely to protect the PEOPLE (and the country), from being cheated, from being dangerously exploited (bad drugs or dangerous pollution, etc.), as well as , as has been happening mostly since the 80's, corporations taking the government FROM the people. Anybody that thinks we can have a strong country without strong business has mental challenges! Anyone that thinks businesses should make all the rules are JUST as challenged. Russia has a government of businessmen (oligarchs) that do just about as they wish. They are only "regulated" by their "strong leader" … to coin our leader's(?) opinion. Anti-capitalists on the left?? Hogwash! You confuse the reality of anti-oligarchy with necessarily regulated capitalism which could be called anti-GREED.

jesusisGod777

@seriously10

Rape doesn't justify murder.

I could care less about feelings.

If you feel that feelings justify murder, than you would insinuate feelings are a basis for murder.

Rapes a crime

So murder.

Murders not the answer.

Rapists are horrible.

So are people who abort.

There is no moral justification is claiming rape is horrible so murder is a response to a crime that has caused a women to become pregnant.

Pregnancy is a result of rape.

Plenty of women have said they are glad they kept a child even though they were raped.

So some retarted argument that rape justifys abortion is fallacious.

So is aborting because a mother might not survive.

Jesus decides who lives and who dies.

If he decided you'd get pregnant it simply is a test of faith.

Plenty of people have survived outside a doctor's opinion.

They call it a practice for a reason.

Jesus is Lord.

However if Jesus dictates something else I'm wrong.

I however am basing the statement on the best information availible.

Many people have feelings. A lot of those feelings have cause a lot of people problems.

I don't overvalue feelings and I don't disagree with the fact feelings are important.

However, a lot of what happens has a bigger story than you know.

Jesus is Lord.

대왕광개토

@jesusisGod777 How do you even know that Jesus dictates our lives(without referring to Bible)?

KdCuber

@jesusisGod777

You know... not everyone lives completely by the Bible. 

Denying a woman the right to autonomously make decisions about HER body is a crime greater than murder, because you are essentially condemning her to life-long suffering.
Statistically, it is a fact that children who were born in families where the mother didn't want a baby had much higher suicide rates, as well as mental health disorders. 

You can't refer to the Bible in this one, society has changed too much.  Thinka bout it, the Bible was written approx 2000 years ago, 2000!
You can't use a book written millenia ago, when society was TREMENDOUSLY different, in the present society that now allows for gender equality and right to property, and doesn't oppress women. You can't use the Bible for this debate because abortion was hardly a thing when the Bible was written. 

KdCuber

"Jesus decides who lives and who dies."

Isn't that just a DISGUSTING statement. Someone believes himself to be so great that he now is omnipotent, can make people suffer beyond anything you have ever experienced, just for FUN? 

You and your god are if you truly believe that making people suffer and die (sometimes horribly and VERY painfully) is OK. If your god truly were omnipotent and benevolent the great famine in Yemen wouldn't have happened. The Nanking massacre wouldn't have happened, nor the Holocaust. What about the Crusades? Do you truly think God dictated who died and who didn't? 

Women and children were RAPED in these historical events, do you think God really commanded these actions? Because if he did, then he can go eat my . 

KdCuber

@jesusisGod777 
"Rape doesn't justify murder."

Then why is there the death sentence for rape in various countries? 

"I could care less about feelings."
But isn't Christianity all about looking into your feelings and finding god? Have you contradicted yourself?

"If you feel that feelings justify murder, than you would insinuate feelings are a basis for murder."
Firstly, it's "then", not "than". Than is used for comparatives, whereas then is a conjunction, but back to your claim. 
Indeed feelings are a basis of murder, why else would someone kill someone else? Most murders (or better, all intentional murders) are driven by emotions, jealousy, anger etc... 

"Rapes a crime. So murder."
Probably the only true statement in your post. 

"Murders not the answer."
Yet Jesus had to die to save us humans didn't he? Oh..wait XD

"Rapists are horrible."
Oh look at that, another sensical argument. Maybe you're not as a drooling fucktard as I thought you to be. 

"So are people who abort."
I take that back. 

"There is no moral justification is claiming rape is horrible so murder is a response to a crime that has caused a women to become pregnant."
Then why does rape constitute for the death sentence in some countries. Imagine if you were abused, physically assaulted, and then impregnated against your will by a stranger? DO you know how hard it is for pregnant women or mothers to get jobs? You're literally ruining a woman's LIFE. 

And how about the rape of minors. Imagine being the father of a little 8 year old girl, and one day you lose her at a park. She's been kidnapped, and is being tortured, assaulted and raped. I'd probably go insane just at the thought of this happening. The rapist has emotionally scarred the girl (who will probably commit suicide) and her parents. This is condemning them to life long suffering. The death sentence if anything is too light of a punishment, a rapist should be slowly killed and tortured. 

"Pregnancy is a result of rape."
Prengnacy is a result of unprotected coitus. 

"Plenty of women have said they are glad they kept a child even though they were raped."
That's because people like you in society are pressuring unwanting parents to feel glad, because otherwise they're seen as "monsters". Disgusting, it's like freedom of speech has disappeared...
Furthermore, any evidence to back up your claim? I haven't found a single paper reaching your conclusions. 


"So is aborting because a mother might not survive."
If a mother isn't going to survive, and dies while still pregnant, the other parent may decide to have a premature pregnancy, or just abort. Those are the two ONLY options.  In the latter case, the fetus dies and that's it.
 If instead the parent resorts to an early pregnancy, well... there are just countless complications that come with it. Firstly, since the mother is oficially dead, the fetus has no source of oxygen, as blood circulation is cut off. The fetus is completely dependent on the mother’s circulation to provide air and food to the placenta. If the maturnal circulations stops, the fetus is completely without oxygen. The fetus can recover completely if it is deprived of oxygen for less than five minutes. It will survive with brain injury for up to ten minutes, After 10 minutes, all bets are off, the baby is either dead or in a vegetative state. In either case disastrous results. 

So what is better? Killing the fetus then and there, or having a premature pregnancy, see the child die in front of you and/or remain in a vegetative state for the rest of its life? The humane choice is abortion. 

"Jesus decides who lives and who dies.If he decided you'd get pregnant it simply is a test of faith."

Isn't that just a DISGUSTING statement. Someone believes himself to be so great that he now is omnipotent, can make people suffer beyond anything you have ever experienced, just for FUN? 

You and your god are if you truly believe that making people suffer and die (sometimes horribly and VERY painfully) is OK. If your god truly were omnipotent and benevolent the great famine in Yemen wouldn't have happened. The Nanking massacre wouldn't have happened, nor the Holocaust. What about the Crusades? Do you truly think God dictated who died and who didn't? 

Women and children were RAPED in these historical events, do you think God really commanded these actions? Because if he did, then he can go eat my s h it .

"I however am basing the statement on the best information availible."
Where have you found these sources? Any references? 

I have disproved all your arguments @jesusisGod777

Abortion is oK. you're just too close-minded and back-minded to agree. 

KdCuber

@Plaffelvohfen

It's not their fault...They were just brainwashed by their churches and took religion too literally...
You can't let a book written millenia ago dictate every aspect of your life in the modern era. 
Anyone who does so is retarded, and doesn't realise the danger of this approach to life. 

However, they do constitute a severe danger to society..imagine if they brainwash even more kids ...
As intellectuals it is our duty to educate radical religiousness...

대왕광개토

@jesusisGod777 You didn't even answer my question. I asked you a simple question because you often use Bible and other religious stuffs to back up your claim. In addition, prove that what you are saying is the truth without referring to Bible. I sincerely hope that you don't have any mental issue

John_C_87

seriously10 said:

personally we all know that people are going to start talking about rape. it is a horrible horrible thing but it's not the baby that did it, just because someone does a wrong to you doesn't mean you have to do wrong. abortion is murder and the worse part is the baby can't do anything. just because u can see the child doesn't mean it's not living. a HEARTBEAT means LIFE. what's death? when the heartbeat stops. what's living when there is a heartbeat

No Abortion is not murder it is an official claim to a stop that takes place. This means when a woman is told and agrees with what was told to her that she has a choice in pregnancy abortion she makes a choice to confess to a crime she may not understand by its complex nature.

Female specific amputation is not a pregnancy abortion. A woman does not ever autonomous control over pregnancy or her body in this relationship. As a united state all woman make the same choice to kill a baby with a pregnancy abortion. This takes place by not becoming pregnant and stopping the ovulation process.

When woman ask to have a medical procedure performed a Doctor cannot ask, perform, or bill a woman for pregnancy abortion without exposure to self-incrimination to themselves and the patient. The basic lie is that a plan of Death is murder and that basic state is shared with all woman by not becoming or maintaining pregnancy.

A woman can be told what to do with her body just as any male that isn’t the issue at all. The question is a woman is a international border with limited access to who may cross that border to gain entry into a Nation.

Death of a baby isn’t the United State which all woman is not created equal on, prove one out of all woman who has not knowingly killed a baby by say no to sexual intercourse and the fertilization of a human egg. Can you?  it is the question of immigration of the person who is to enter a country legally through use of the woman at possibly risk to her life as a cost to the entry. A woman is not official killing for there is no independence of life, independence comes over a occurrence of maturity, and the stages of independence matter. As the death is only a constant point made by her choice to end the entry of a immigration at its starts to the United State of the World. All woman equally bear this constitutional union only by the natural ability to become pregnant.

There is no constitutional representation of woman being made in united state at all in this matter of pregnancy. What is being represented is an accusation made directly against American united State Constitution and this is done with a lie as perjury when place in legislative law.

Respectively I yield back time.

John_C_87

@KdCuber ;
"Rape doesn't justify murder."

The problem is rape is a form of assault, sexual assault has two principles. Principle one is types of sexual action, some kind of attack is principle two , with the state of force creates the union several forms of evidence can be found. Assault can progress to become a murder over a duration of its investigated life time. In a united state it is trying to justify a termination in basic principle of all woman's abilities to independent immigration into the world as United State. Though a woman may have been rape A.K.A. sexual assaulted it is not necessary to insure woman under United State Constitutional right to official stop immigration into a nation by legal precedent as it constitutional relates to woman by general welfare. 

A female specific amputation does not effect life by self-incrimination it sets a immigration status to neutral in relationship to human health by the actions a woman may find necessary until reasonable information can be presented in well regulated grievance .

A Rape is not need to address the female attack orginized on American United State Consitution at the asigned cost palced on woman.

AlofRI

I'll just say that about 70% of the U.S. and Canada disagree with the premise of this debate. Many of that percentage believe in the premise of the Christian God. They also believe in the Constitution as law of the land. They swear on the Bible to uphold that Constitution, they do NOT swear to uphold the Bible. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land and the vast majority stand by it. NO MINORITY should change it. Women had few rights in the Bible, they DO have rights in this country, and, as John Adams said: The government of the United States is not, in any sense, based on the Christian religion." (I hope I have that right …. close anyway  )  If we live by the Bible we will be no better than the Muslim countries that live by the Koran, and, eventually we will have another religious war with them. We must live by societal laws, not ancient religious laws as many Muslim countries do. It's unhealthy ………… and, a bit wacky. 

MichaelElpers

@jesusisGod777

Are you saying, no abortion even if the life of the mother is at risk?  That is dumb.  You can't argue based on religion, that is a fallacy.

MichaelElpers

If people actually want to argue the point on abortion, they need to ask:  Is the fetus a human life, and is it's life more valuable than the convenience of the mother.  All other points are mute.

To me, biology shows that the fetus is a human life, and personally I believe the essence of a human life is more valuable than that convenience.  Especially considering it is the woman who made the decision to allow a fetus grow inside her, not the fetus.  

The most horrific moments in human history have come from us devaluing the life of humanity.  Are we currently making the same mistake?

jesusisGod777

@MichaelElpers

More than 20 percent of patients who sought a second opinion at one of the nation’s premier medical institutions had been misdiagnosed by their primary care providers, according to new research published Tuesday.

Second why do you KIDs keep on challenging reality.

When two lived are wished which is more important 

A child's life

Or an adults life

Stop directing comments at me.

Jesus I'd Lord.

MichaelElpers

@jesusisGod777 ; You posted on a debate website, and you don't expect replies?

While I agree with you that abortion is wrong a child and fetus are different.

Also, while both are valuable, I would make the case that the adult who has currently made family, friendships, and additional relationships loss would cause more hardship than the death of a fetus.  Also I don't feel it is right to tell someone that they have to die for their baby.  This most definitely would cause a shortage in the people willing to become mothers, and it is just wrong to force someone to die for someone else. 

 Yes there are misdiagnosis, but we still have use the opinions of medical professionals regarding the life of the mother because they have the most valuable insight.