Is what was once considered corporal punishment now known as what could be child abuse?

ZeusAres42

Plaffelvohfen said:

ZeusAres42 said:

In regard to corporal punishment again, isn't that banned though in state schools, and elementary schools? I myself have never heard state and elementary schools in the USA incorporating corporal punishment, at least in recent years anyway. 

As of 2018, it is legal in public schools in 19 states (good read here), permitted in 18, and yes practiced in 15... Over 160,000 children in these states are subject to corporal punishment in public schools each year. 

A typical state definition of school corporal punishment is the one offered in the Texas Education Code, which specifies permissible corporal punishment as, “…the deliberate infliction of physical pain by hitting, paddling, spanking, slapping, or any other physical force used as a means of discipline.” (Texas Education Code, 2013)

The Texas code thus allows school personnel to hit children with objects (“paddling”) and to use “any other physical force” to control children, as long as it is in the name of discipline.

Isn't being civilized great? God bless Murika!!   

Thank you for this. Quite a long read but I will read it. Also, from just  glance it seems like that it's mostly the southern part of the USA that this is accepted. I've only had a glimpse but it seems that the majority of schools in the USA do not employ corporal punishment.

all4actt

@TKDB

Unfortunately raising your kids with what most reasonable people would consider to be bad values is not a legal form of child abuse.  

TKDB

@all4actt

You're entitled to your Opinion, and perception.

"Unfortunately raising your kids with what most reasonable people would consider to be bad values is not a legal form of child abuse."

A sad excuse for parenting, is enabling any kid with booze, before the legal drinking age. 

(When an alcoholic parent pulls that mentality garbage at home, a kid is 6 more times likely to become an alcoholic just like their bad value plagued alcoholic parents?)
(The Alcoholic Corpral punishment technique?)

A sad excuse for parenting, are some of the drug addict moms and dads who use illegal drugs, around their own kids, or their own families.

(Could the legalization of medical marijuana, and recreational marijuana, be viewed, as co-creators, to a whole new probable generation, of marijuana addicts, just like some of the parent, or parents addicts already are?)
(The Marijuana addict, Corpral punishment technique?)

Is abortion outside of rape or incest, another probable example of, "bad value teaching?"
(Could abortion, against unborn babies, be viewed as a Corpral punishment technique?)

What are your thoughts?

all4actt

@TKDB

Maybe you misunderstood me.  

Raising children in a criminal environment is apprehensable but it isn't considered child abuse in any laws that I am aware of.  Child protection agencies are not able to remove children (or at least when I was working with children) from their homes just because they disagree with the morals the child is being taght.  Not a opinion it is just a fact.

TKDB

@all4actt

Then who is responsible for failing those kids?

Some of those Parents themselves, or maybe some law, that hasn't been drafted yet, by a current, or future lawmaker?

I believe in Kids Rights, and there are some parents out there, who are getting away with Family Abuse, because some of the Kids across the country, aren't getting enough of a voice.

And thats Corpral Punishment, against the millions of kids, whose Rights gets abused each day, by some of the self serving adults, who are playing with the Rights of the Kids, who live with, and around them.

Dee

@TKDB

If people abuse dogs, by beating them, then they should be in jail. 

If people are abusing kids by beating them, then they should be in jail as well.

There is a Universal difference between spanking an intolerant child, and beating a child.

To spank a child is to beat a child you , you admit you’ve done this so this makes you a child abuser.

I never mentioned bipolar children you fool but as usual you post up reams of rubbish unrelated to what I said 

TKDB

@Dee

You don't know me to make such an accusation.

I'm pro kid, pro family, and pro law abiding.

To spank a child for being intolerant, is proper parenting.

To beat a child, outside of a spanking is child abuse.

Unless some parents, are scared to spank an intolerant child, and are in love with their intolerant child, attitudinally walking all over them?


"To spank a child is to beat a child you , you admit you’ve done this so this makes you a child abuser."

Dee

@TKDB

****You don't know me to make such an accusation.

I don’t need to know you , you admit you beat children making you a child abuser.

You admit to beat a dog one should get jail time 

You admit to beat a child one should get jail time , to spank a child is to beat a child 

****I'm pro kid, pro family, and pro law abiding.

You’re certainly not “pro kid” you admit to beating children 

****To spank a child for being intolerant, is proper parenting.

But you admitted parents who beat children deserve jail make your mind up

****To beat a child, outside of a spanking is child abuse.

Spanking is hitting, plain and simple. Think about it. Spanking involves a big, powerful person hitting a smaller, less powerful person. Just calling it "spanking" instead of "hitting" does not change that fact. Children are the only group of people whom it is legal for adults to hit in the US make you proud does it? 

****Unless some parents, are scared to spank an intolerant child, and are in love with their intolerant child, attitudinally walking all over them?

Right so you’re that you cannot make your intent known to a child without beating him /her? Also you see it as an act of cowardice if one doesn’t beat a child 

Why don’t you beat your dog when it disobeys you or your wife for “attitude adjustment “ or your neighbour if you don’t like his/her attitude?

TKDB

@Dee

You're entitled to your Opinion, and perception.

I don't have to justify myself to another anonymous name on the internet.

Spanking a child, isn't abuse.

And you can engineer your words, around me however you want, but that doesn't make your word just, because you're crafting your word choices on the internet.

If some parents, are happy with letting their attitude filled kids, or intolerant kids, walk all over them, then it's those parents fault, for allowing those kids to become problems for the rest of the Public, to deal with.

Chasing illegal drugs, chasing alcohol, chasing jail time.


@Dee

Same questions for you because @all4actt
doesn't seem to have an answer for them? 

Then who is responsible for failing those kids?

Some of those Parents themselves, or maybe some law, that hasn't been drafted yet, by a current, or future lawmaker?

I believe in Kids Rights, and there are some parents out there, who are getting away with Family Abuse, because some of the Kids across the country, aren't getting enough of a voice.

And thats Corpral Punishment, against the millions of kids, whose Rights gets abused each day, by some of the self serving adults, who are playing with the Rights of the Kids, who live with, and around them. 


A sad excuse for parenting, is enabling any kid with booze, before the legal drinking age. 

(When an alcoholic parent pulls that mentality garbage at home, a kid is 6 more times likely to become an alcoholic just like their bad value plagued alcoholic parents?)
(The Alcoholic Corpral punishment technique?)

A sad excuse for parenting, are some of the drug addict moms and dads who use illegal drugs, around their own kids, or their own families.

(Could the legalization of medical marijuana, and recreational marijuana, be viewed, as co-creators, to a whole new probable generation, of marijuana addicts, just like some of the parent, or parents addicts already are?)
(The Marijuana addict, Corpral punishment technique?)

Is abortion outside of rape or incest, another probable example of, "bad value teaching?"
(Could abortion, against unborn babies, be viewed as a Corpral punishment technique?)

Dee

@TKDB

****You're entitled to your Opinion, and perception.

Yes I know it is a debate site you know

****I don't have to justify myself to another anonymous name on the internet.

I never said you did , I’m pointing out you’re a child abuser you openly admit you beat kids just be man enough to admit it 

****Spanking a child, isn't abuse.

Spanking is hitting , you said people that beat dogs deserve jail you said people that beat kids deserve jail now you’re saying they don’t 

****And you can engineer your words, around me however you want, but that doesn't make your word just, because you're crafting your word choices on the internet.

I’ve “engineered “ nothing you , I’ve pointed out the fact you said beating a child was abuse .....except spanking .......Spanking is hitting a child you spectacularly oaf 

****if some parents, are happy with letting their attitude filled kids, or intolerant kids, walk all over them, then it's those parents fault, for allowing those kids to become problems for the rest of the Public, to deal with.

It proves your a violent half -wit who thinks beating a child is somehow beneficial , did ever try talking to your kids you fool?

****Chasing illegal drugs, chasing alcohol, chasing jail time.

What are you babbling about and BTW why are you asking me questions regards another poster?

TKDB

@Dee

Where's your Proof, did I get placed in jail?

Do you have any court records to back your argument up?

Please, where is your proof? 

You've got entertaining to do right?

I've got my popcorn ready. 

"It proves your a violent half -wit who thinks beating a child is somehow beneficial , did ever try talking to your kids you fool?"

"Spanking is hitting , you said people that beat dogs deserve jail you said people that beat kids deserve jail now you’re saying they don’t"

"I never said you did , I’m pointing out you’re a child abuser you openly admit you beat kids just be man enough to admit it"

@Dee @all4actt ;  
Because neither one of you know how to consciously support your arguments, outside of your own Opinion filled perceptions?

"What are you babbling about and BTW why are you asking me questions regards another poster?"

Dee

@TKDB

Because neither one of you know how to consciously support your arguments, outside of your own Opinion filled perceptions

You admitted your a child abuser , you as a grown man beat your children yet think beating a dog is horrendous.

Like the coward you are you admit your abuse yet attempt to deflect like the typical cowardly child beater you are , are you proud of yourself that as a grown man you have to use violence on your own kids? 

Wait don’t answer your chest swells out with pride as you admitted it was an act of bravery to beat kids , you have more respect for a neighbors dog than your own kids you should hang your head in shame 

TKDB

@Dee?

 

TKDB

@Dee

Where's your Proof, did I get placed in jail?

Do you have any court records to back your argument up?

Please, where is your proof? 

("You admitted your a child abuser , you as a grown man beat your children yet think beating a dog is horrendous.

Like the coward you are you admit your abuse yet attempt to deflect like the typical cowardly child beater you are , are you proud of yourself that as a grown man you have to use violence on your own kids? 

Wait don’t answer your chest swells out with pride as you admitted it was an act of bravery to beat kids , you have more respect for a neighbors dog than your own kids you should hang your head in shame.")

The above tripe from you is your opinion, hearsay, and conjecture.

@Dee ;

Where's your evidence?

Outside of your individual perception, and Opinion?

Show me where I told you to your face, on this website, what you're claiming that I said to you?

Copy and paste it, and educate this website, with your fair, equal, and unbiased evidence?

I'm challenging you in front of this website, show me? 

@Plaffelvohfen care to comment? 

 

TKDB

@Dee

Where's your proof?

 

Dee

@TKDB

Wheres your proof 

My proof you’re a child abuser? Here it is in your own words you twat 

To spank a child for being intolerant, is proper parenting.
To beat a child, outside of a spanking is child abuse.
Unless some parents, are scared to spank an intolerant child, and are in love with their intolerant child, attitudinally walking all over them?

Spanking is beating you  

You even admit it again you by saying “ beating a child as a spanking is fine but outside that is child abuse .... You’re that you cannot remember your own words 

Then you finish by admitting it’s an act of bravery to beat children . You’re a child abuser your kids should be put in care , you’re a big brave American hero using the might and strength of a man to terrorize and beat a mere child 

Dee

@TKDB

I just posted up evidence of you the abuser in your own words admitting you’re a child abusing twat 

Dee

@TKDB

You admitted you beat your kids you  

ZeusAres42

Dee said:

@TKDB

Because neither one of you know how to consciously support your arguments, outside of your own Opinion filled perceptions

You admitted your a child abuser , you as a grown man beat your children yet think beating a dog is horrendous.

Like the coward you are you admit your abuse yet attempt to deflect like the typical cowardly child beater you are , are you proud of yourself that as a grown man you have to use violence on your own kids? 

Wait don’t answer your chest swells out with pride as you admitted it was an act of bravery to beat kids , you have more respect for a neighbors dog than your own kids you should hang your head in shame 

Dee

@ZeusAres42

You’re correct , he always goes the same way as in makes a bunch of statements then denying he said them and asking the usual   unrelated questions .....He admitted he beats his kids along with that the poor children have to suffer listening to the blubbering half -wit that’s their father 

TKDB

In the United States, spanking an intolerant child, isn't against the law.

Now if a parent, or an adult, is abusing a child, by beating a child, then I invite @Plaffelvohfen, @Dee, and @ZeusAres42 to call the police or the Child Protective Services, on that abusive parent, parents, or adult, so that they can face the law, and then the legal system, so that their child abuse crimes are served properly?

@Plaffelvohfen, @Dee, @ZeusAres42, Please, what is your collective response? 

ZeusAres42

@Dee

Anyway, I take it you're one of the people that would also concur then that was once considered corporal punishment is now child abuse. I know that definitely is the case now in England, especially in schools which seemed to be far more notorious and famous for hard physical punishment.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

You're a United Kingdom citizen aren't you, therefore your opinion or perception, when it comes to the "spanking of a child, and not the beating" of a child, for being intolerant, is irrelevant to the laws of the United States, isn't it?

Just as I wouldn't make a judgement of the laws in the United Kingdom, because I'm a U.S. citizen.


"Anyway, I take it you're one of the people that would also concur then that was once considered corporal punishment is now child abuse."

"I know that definitely is the case now in England, especially in schools which seemed to be far more notorious and famous for hard physical punishment."

ZeusAres42

all4actt said:

Unfortunately raising your kids with what most reasonable people would consider to be bad values is not a legal form of child abuse.  

That does seem to be the case in a number of states and/or countries yes.

Dee

@ZeusAres42

Yes , it was  indeed child abuse no matter what sort of spin is put on it 

TKDB

@Dee

@ZeusAres42

How does your individual country, view the non abusive spanking of a child? 

And how many parents, have been incarcerated for the non abusive spanking of their kids?

Maybe 0? 


https://www.silive.com/news/2008/03/spank_your_children_and_youll.html


"Campaign for Children and Families (CCF), which has fought against bills proposed in California and Massachusetts last year that would have made it illegal for parents to administer corporal punishment on their children. As far as they are concerned, it's the government that should keep its "hands off" of parental discipline.
"Some parents spank and some parents don't, and that's their right as parents. Government regulation of parents' discipline wipes out the right of parents to raise their own children. This is wrong. God gave children to parents, not to the state," CCF President Randy Thomasson said in a statement refuting the Massachusetts legislation.
Spanking is appropriate when administered to kids between ages 2 and 10 as "the shortest and most effective route to an attitude adjustment," Thomasson said. It is inappropriate for children under 15 or 18 months, however, "because they don't understand it."
"Appropriate spanking is not 'beating' or 'abusing' a child, which is a ridiculous and offensive comparison," Thomasson said. "When appropriate spanking is lovingly administered, it greatly helps a disobedient youngster to become a well-adjusted adult who respects authority."
But even he acknowledged that the line between a loving parent and an abusive one can sometimes blur -- and an angry parent may not be able to distinguish between a beating that can cause temporary pain, and one that can bruise, cut or break bones.
This is precisely where laws that address child abuse are deficient: They do not clearly define the severity of a beating or the type of specific actions that constitute abuse.
"It's going to be seen differently depending on whose eyes are looking at it..." Riak said. "If you are looking for a hard line that says if you do this you should be arrested and prosecuted, that's not going to happen." 

ZeusAres42

대왕광개토 said:

Based on my experience, corporal punishment is not effective in controlling students' behavior. When I was an elementary school student, corporal punishment was taking place at my school as if it was the school's tradition. Many teachers(though there were some teachers who never inflicted corporal punishment on students) used sticks to hit the students who either didn't pay attention or showed defiance. Contrary to the teachers' expectations, however, students became even more defiant and aggressive. Those who were often targeted by corporal punishment were not afraid of being punished. In my opinion, corporal punishment serves not as a powerful behavior controlling tool but only as an exciting challenge to troublemakers. 

There's actually a significant amount of psychological research to back up a lot of what you're saying here too.

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

Why no comment?

How does your individual country, view the non abusive spanking of a child? 

And how many parents, have been incarcerated for the non abusive spanking of their kids?

Maybe 0? 


https://www.silive.com/news/2008/03/spank_your_children_and_youll.html


"Campaign for Children and Families (CCF), which has fought against bills proposed in California and Massachusetts last year that would have made it illegal for parents to administer corporal punishment on their children. As far as they are concerned, it's the government that should keep its "hands off" of parental discipline.
"Some parents spank and some parents don't, and that's their right as parents. Government regulation of parents' discipline wipes out the right of parents to raise their own children. This is wrong. God gave children to parents, not to the state," CCF President Randy Thomasson said in a statement refuting the Massachusetts legislation.
Spanking is appropriate when administered to kids between ages 2 and 10 as "the shortest and most effective route to an attitude adjustment," Thomasson said. It is inappropriate for children under 15 or 18 months, however, "because they don't understand it."
"Appropriate spanking is not 'beating' or 'abusing' a child, which is a ridiculous and offensive comparison," Thomasson said. "When appropriate spanking is lovingly administered, it greatly helps a disobedient youngster to become a well-adjusted adult who respects authority."
But even he acknowledged that the line between a loving parent and an abusive one can sometimes blur -- and an angry parent may not be able to distinguish between a beating that can cause temporary pain, and one that can bruise, cut or break bones.
This is precisely where laws that address child abuse are deficient: They do not clearly define the severity of a beating or the type of specific actions that constitute abuse.
"It's going to be seen differently depending on whose eyes are looking at it..." Riak said. "If you are looking for a hard line that says if you do this you should be arrested and prosecuted, that's not going to happen."  

@ZeusAres42, is there a law against, the non abusive spanking of a child, in the U.K.? 

TKDB

@ZeusAres42

@Dee

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/corporal-punishment-key-issues

ZeusAres42

대왕광개토 said:

Based on my experience, corporal punishment is not effective in controlling students' behavior. When I was an elementary school student, corporal punishment was taking place at my school as if it was the school's tradition. Many teachers(though there were some teachers who never inflicted corporal punishment on students) used sticks to hit the students who either didn't pay attention or showed defiance. Contrary to the teachers' expectations, however, students became even more defiant and aggressive. Those who were often targeted by corporal punishment were not afraid of being punished. In my opinion, corporal punishment serves not as a powerful behavior controlling tool but only as an exciting challenge to troublemakers. 

Also, with regard to you talking about it being ineffective that just reminded me of the Infamous Kray Twins of the East End of London. These guys were often on the end of hard corporal punishment as they were growing up. But corporal punishment didn't stop them from becoming one of England's most notorious criminals. Anyway, that was just two people. But like I said, there is significant research that backs up that physical punishment is totally ineffective at controlling behaviour. I mean by the same token, there are people that have grown up to be kind, good behaving etc and were never spanked once; not even mildly.

Also, if someone feels they have to immediately resort to spanking a child this is a clear reflection of a lack of self-discipline on their part i.e lacking "the ability to control one's feelings and overcome one's weaknesses." https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/self-discipline. Now, if parent hasn't really got any self-discipline then how an earth can they expect to pass on those values to their children?

TKDB

@ZeusAres42
Is there a law against, the non abusive spanking of a child, in the U.K.?