I'm pro-life: change my mind

John_C_87

Yes, by description.

PHaze

Nobody has to change your mind.  That is, if we hold sacred the sentiment that our society reveres the idea of liberty.
 
We live in a pluralistic society that, by design, celebrates freedom and variance.  Each person is free to believe as he/she chooses and live that way, as well.  Liberty is, by definition, the ability to have all options available to you and to be free to choose the path you will take.  It runs counter to the very fabric of our national belief system to limit somebody's options, whether they be agreeable to our own beliefs or not.  Want to be Pro-Life?  You are free to be so.  At what point is it acceptable to snatch the opposing option away from another?  You have a choice to believe as you do.  Who are you to deny somebody who feels differently than you the very same option?   

ambee

@PHaze
yes, everyone has the right to their own opinion. thats the beauty of this country but i am wondering if you what website your on. Its a debating website, debating is fun. Also debating is important, especially with this issue. 2 years ago i was of the opinion that pro-life was christians saying untrue feelings and no facts, until i actually started looking into it, DEBATING, and having conversations with people who had opinions on the topic. No one has to change my mind but i am inviting people to change my mind, thats how people form an opinion. trying to change someones mind is a beautiful thing, you should try it my friend.

Plaffelvohfen

@ambee

OK, state your full position and what you think it entails, I'll try to change your mind.

ambee

@Plaffelvohfen
i believe there is no instance where it should be okay to end the life of a child through abortion. abortion now of days is used as birth control, this is disgusting in my opinion and is why abortions should be illegal.

Plaffelvohfen

@ambee

Ok, why is there no instance where this should be permissible? Even when the mother's health is jeopardized?

You propose a total ban on all abortions, right? What would the penalty be?

ambee

before i answer may i ask why did you jump right into the " jeopardization of the mother" argument?

Plaffelvohfen

@ambee

Because to me, it seems like a perfectly good reason to allow abortion.

ambee

right, but why are you only asking about 1% of abortions to begin the conversation? why not talk about the majority of abortions?

Plaffelvohfen

@ambee

That's the first instance that popped into mind, just wanted to make sure if you allowed for exceptions or not, if are you dealing in absolutes, etc...

John_C_87

i believe there is no instance where it should be okay to end the life of a child through abortion. abortion now of days is used as birth control, this is disgusting in my opinion and is why abortions should be illegal. 

Your mind has already been changed and you simply are in denial of your own pregnancy abortions. The only times woman ever have a pregnancy abortion is when they perform them by refuse to have sexual intercourse, or donate a egg to medical science. The surgical removal in relation to pregnancies having been terminated as a united state with all woman are female specific amputation. As it is more in line with the obligations of a hypocritic oath of the medical practice.

We are all at liberty to present a common defense to the general welfare. Saying everything out loud is simply not always right.

Plaffelvohfen

@ambee

Ok, so then all abortions are actual murders and I guess they should bear the same consequences, right? Or else it's not really murder no? So, from 25yrs to life, to the death penalty I guess? For both the physician and the mother of course, or else it's not justice right?

What about miscarriages, treat them as involuntary manslaughter? Since by definition, all miscarriages would be potential murders, are you ready to implement a systematical investigation process for each and every case of miscarriage for evidence of voluntary exposure to risk in some activities while pregnant (horse riding, ice hockey, basketball, "falling down the stairs" incidents, etc), and for traces of silphium,  savin, ergot of rye, pennyroyal, nutmeg, rue, squills, aloe, canella or any of the thousands of abortifacient plants that exist and that have been used for thousands of years to induce abortions at home? Have you considered a practical method to enforce the mandatory reporting of possible miscarriages or a national ban of those plants in any form?? 

We should make sure that every woman pass monthly mandatory medical examinations to see; 1) If they had a miscarriage that they did not report for investigation, which would in itself be a felony, and 2) To assert if they are actually physically fit to get pregnant, women with health conditions that augment the risks of miscarriages beyond a certain point should be prohibited from trying to get pregnant, as they would knowingly endanger the potential innocent human life, mandatory removal of the uterus or sterilization could be warranted in such cases as way of prevention...

In Vitro procedures will be problematic and would need to be outlawed too obviously... 

Nice place you want to live in!

Dee

@ambee

**********i believe there is no instance where it should be okay to end the life of a child through abortion. abortion now of days is used as birth control, this is disgusting in my opinion and is why abortions should be illegal.


You use the term child instead of fetus to make an appeal to emotion but you’re incorrect if your contention were true our jails would be full of child murderers as you clearly label them

Women choose abortion as a last resort  you seem to imply it’s just a matter of convenience there are many reasons women abort and much better ways of implementing birth control.

Why has a woman to give birth against her wishes? Is it just to please people like you who want to force others to do as you wish?

John_C_87

@Plaffelvohfen ;

It was my understanding there are different degrees of murder. The one when a person describes something that can be premeditated  murder and performs that task is an self-incrimination.

John_C_87

@Dee ;
You use the term child instead of fetus to make an appeal to emotion but you’re incorrect if your contention were true our jails would be full of child murderers as you clearly label them.
 A grammar mistake, child is an aged fetus correct?. Dee, any time you would like to describe how the public opinion is not a self-incrimination, please by all means do so. Pregnancy abortion is abolished with female specific amputation it does not depend on committing all woman to the idea a pregnancy has started. As unless we are psychic or psychopathic we have no knowledge the pregnancy is not a 1-9 month death sentence.

"I beg your pardon, I never promised woman a rose garden. You should look before you leap still waters run deep and there won’t always someone there to pull you out. So you thought you knew what we were all silent about." Some-what Lynn Anderson, 1971, Rose Garden.

SkepticalOne

@ambee

I see no reason to attempt changing your mind. You are entitled to your opinion. Although it should be noted, if you wish to inject your opinion into secular government, you'll need a coherent definition of person (one that doesn't create absurdities) and good reason to disallow abortion in all cases (ie. Not derived from a holy book). I know of no argument against abortion which can meet this low threshold.

ambee

@Dee
"You use the term child instead of fetus to make an appeal to emotion"
i use the term child because it is a child, if you want me to call it a fetus... whatever. fetus, child, its still a human life. *Word games*
"you’re incorrect if your contention were true our jails would be full of child murderers as you clearly label them"
no our jails should be filled with child murders, people who have gotten abortions have murdered a human life. but thats why these conversations are so important, because people dont know what an abortion truly entails. having a conversation helps people learn, if having a conversation and changing peoples mind can save one human life, great.
"Women choose abortion as a last resort"
how do you know that?
"you seem to imply it’s just a matter of convenience "
because it is, instead of just saying things w/o context such as, "Women choose abortion as a last resort", and w/o knowing if its true or not, i actually do my research. there are plenty of informational and government sites who have actually found the statistics that woman generally decide to have an abortion because they dont want the baby. feel free to look up that data and you can pick a topic that woman have stated of getting an abortions that you feel is justified to terminate a pregnancy and we can debate on that.
"much better ways of implementing birth control."
i agree. use a condom, or practice absence. 
"Why has a woman to give birth against her wishes? "
why would a woman have to go to jail for committing a crime, why should she have to go to jail against her wishes, cause there are consequences to your actions. everyone know that when you have unprotected sex, you get pregnant. woman who decided to have irresponsible sex w/o protection dont get to kill their baby's out of convenience.
"Is it just to please people like you who want to force others to do as you wish?"
nope. i want to preserve human life. i will never defend killing innocent human lives, and i want to change the opinions of people who dont understand its a human life.

ambee

@SkepticalOne
"I see no reason to attempt changing your mind."
that's fine. if you cant change my mind im not forcing you to. in my reply to PHaze i also explain why i ask people to change my mind if they wish.
"You are entitled to your opinion."
i agree, but also you are on a debating website.
"you'll need a coherent definition of person (one that doesn't create absurdities)"
what " absurdities"? 
"good reason to disallow abortion in all cases "
all cases end with the death of a baby. that is reason enough my friend.
" Not derived from a holy book)"
my "holy book" would be a biology book
if you beleive that im christian ur wrong, im assuming ur talking about the bible, but i wont make assumptions. so if you want to explain "holy book" please do.
if your point is to talk about what is or isnt a human life i would love to talk to you about it. when do you believe a human become a person?

Nicole.janice17

dear @John_C_87 , 
"Literally everything you have said"
I believe the reason no one is responding to you is simply because they don't know what your saying. You keep referring to a woman's' menstrual cycle as an abortion (i think), I believe this argument also goes with the idea that masturbation is abortion. This is an extremely flawed argument as any freshman year high school student can tell you how basic biology works. Although I do encourage you to look up the term 'fertilized egg' as apposed to the eggs a woman has in her uterus since birth (approximately 1 million) , since you obviously missed eighth grade family life. 

sincerely, 
                A concerned citizen

Plaffelvohfen

@ambee

my "holy book" would be a biology book

Now, that's an interesting avenue to explore... How does biology inform this debate? How is the fact that our biology was imposed on us, reason enough to stay slave to it and let it dictate what we should or should not do??

ambee

@Plaffelvohfen
biology informs the debate because this debate is about human life and when it starts. biology tells us that it starts at conception  Thats what makes it relevant to the debate.
" How is the fact that our biology was imposed on us, reason enough to stay slave to it and let it dictate what we should or should not do??"
???

ambee

@Plaffelvohfen
also i will respond to ur other reply, im just a little busy.

John_C_87

Dear @Nicole.janice17, 

It was truly great to hear form you, thank you for taking the time to write and your concerns of the attempt to create all woman as equal regarding pregnancy abortion are appreciated. Thank you… I assure you there is a general understanding that woman may not want to be united equally as it pertains to abortion of a pregnancy.

When reading you letter it is refreshing to see the concerned over some basic biology of pregnancy. It is sometimes very confusing to add other basic points like all woman who can have children are a type international border, are new, unexpected, creating risk of their own. Life adds complexities that have not yet been directed by Female amputation debate. Pregnancy abortion as self-incrimination if you insist.

Sincerely,

The apparent object of concern.

Plaffelvohfen

ambee said:

@Plaffelvohfen
biology informs the debate because this debate is about human life and when it starts. biology tells us that it starts at conception  Thats what makes it relevant to the debate.

" How is the fact that our biology was imposed on us, reason enough to stay slave to it and let it dictate what we should or should not do??"
???

How does biology informs us about moral value? In what ways does it inform morality? Is our biology morally and / or legally authoritative?

ambee

@Plaffelvohfen
just wondering, where in my reply did i say anything about moral value? i believe i said, "biology tells us that it(life) starts at conception"

Plaffelvohfen

@ambee

Isn't abortion a moral issue?

Dee

@ambee

****i use the term child because it is a child, if you want me to call it a fetus... whatever. fetus, child, its still a human life. *word games* 

It’s still not  a child .....you need to consult a dictionary 

Chid 

1. a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority."she'd been playing tennis since she was a child"

****no our jails should be filled with child murders, people who have gotten abortions have murdered a human life. 

Thankfully people like you do not make laws 

****but thats why these conversations are so important, because people dont know what an abortion truly entails. 

Really ? That’s yet another sweeping generalization 

****having a conversation helps people learn, if having a conversation and changing peoples mind can save one human life, great.

Well maybe you ought to listen to women who have abortions and you might learn but instead you make statements based on nothing but your own opinions

****how do you know that?

By listening to the reasons from women who abort , you believe it’s a preferred method of birth control 

****because it is, instead of just saying things w/o context such as, "Women choose abortion as a last resort", and w/o knowing if its true or not, i actually do my research. 

Ok , show me your “research “ that has women stating they do it out of convenience.

Also there you go again claiming I’m saying things without knowing if their true , I actually think you’re talking about yourself 

***there are plenty of informational and government sites who have actually found the statistics that woman generally decide to have an abortion because they dont want the baby. 

Of course they don’t want it where did I say otherwise? I’m asking you why you think they don’t want it 

***feel free to look up that data and you can pick a topic that woman have stated of getting an abortions that you feel is justified to terminate a pregnancy and we can debate on that.

What does that even mean ?

****i agree. use a condom, or practice absence. 

Again another empty statement , maybe a woman wanted a child and changed her mind ,how do know each and every reason for aborting?

****why would a woman have to go to jail for committing a crime, why should she have to go to jail against her wishes, cause there are consequences to your actions.

I never asked why a woman who commits a crime goes to jail as I know why,  

women who have abortions have not committed a crime and do not go to jail you seem to think your opinion makes something a crime because you say so 

 ***everyone know that when you have unprotected sex, you get pregnant. 

Again another statement off the top of your head who says a woman who aborted  did not want a baby but changed her mind?

****woman who decided to have irresponsible sex w/o protection dont get to kill their baby's out of convenience.

Again how do you know If it was “irresponsible “? Who says it’s out of “convenience “? How is a fetus now a baby?

***nope. i want to preserve human life. 

What you want is to force women to give birth against their wishes 

****i will never defend killing innocent human lives, and i want to change the opinions of people who dont understand its a human life.

Yet you’re all for contraception which prevents a potential human live coming into being , how is this consistent with your worldview?

John_C_87

Plaffelvohfen said:

ambee said:

@Plaffelvohfen
biology informs the debate because this debate is about human life and when it starts. biology tells us that it starts at conception  Thats what makes it relevant to the debate.

" How is the fact that our biology was imposed on us, reason enough to stay slave to it and let it dictate what we should or should not do??"
???

How does biology informs us about moral value? In what ways does it inform morality? Is our biology morally and / or legally authoritative?

Do you miss the concern over a woman's self-incrimination by the described pregnancy abortion yet?

SkepticalOne

@ambee

****"what " absurdities"?"

Rights of zygotes, embryos, fetus, etc., is absurd. ..it puts a woman against the rights of her body.

****"all cases end with the death of a baby. that is reason enough my friend."

You're trolling, right?  I mean, is your position really "save the baby at all costs -  even if the mother has to die"? 

*****"my "holy book" would be a biology book"

I've never seen a biology book which makes moral/legal determinations. Do tell me where I can find this magical book of yours!

Plaffelvohfen

@John_C_87

No, not yet... 

Vaulk

PHaze said:

Nobody has to change your mind.  That is, if we hold sacred the sentiment that our society reveres the idea of liberty.
 
We live in a pluralistic society that, by design, celebrates freedom and variance.  Each person is free to believe as he/she chooses and live that way, as well. 

Each person must choose carefully the way they want to live as their choice cannot infringe upon the freedom and liberties of others.  This is the very definition of "Limited choice" because considerations must be made due to the inherent limitations in choices.

PHaze said:

Nobody has to change your mind.  That is, if we hold sacred the sentiment that our society reveres the idea of liberty.
 
Liberty is, by definition, the ability to have all options available to you and to be free to choose the path you will take.  

Liberty is The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behaviour, or political views.  

PHaze said:

It runs counter to the very fabric of our national belief system to limit somebody's options, whether they be agreeable to our own beliefs or not.

It in fact does not run counter to the very fabric of our national belief system to limit somebody's options, the vast majority of our Law is focalized around limiting either people or Government and in most cases it's the people.  Options are always, have always and most likely will always be limited in our Country.  

Someone has grossly misinformed you sir.

Plaffelvohfen

@Vaulk

And according to you, what are the reasons a government might be justified in limiting people options? I mean what is the rationale behind it? What are the legitimate motivations to do so? 

It obviously does have legitimacy to limit some people options, but I'm interested in knowing what you think empower, or drive this legitimacy? I mean, would a government be justified in limiting people religious options for example? If not, why? 

I'm curious, do you think governments are justified to impose morality and beliefs? I contend they're not justified in doing so, that it is not a purpose of the Law...

John_C_87

Government or politics? 
justified or obligated?

Plaffelvohfen

@John_C_87

Governments...
Justified...

John_C_87

@Vaulk ;
In basic principle if you can agree. Freedom must be proven as it will always require the official recognition of no self value and no assigned cost. The governing is set to establish if no cost by assignment is a fact. Liberty to the history of the testing of freedom. If not simplify the statement to a simple explanation.

The issue is a need of United State Constitutional needs a 2nd Amendment in unions made between liberty and freedom. Not abolishing the present precedent made with 2nd Amendment.

John_C_87

Sorry let me restate that last bit. Please.

The issue is a need of United State Constitutional 2nd Amendment on the union made between liberty and freedom. Amendment not abolishing the precedent set by the recorded 2nd Amendment as it would become the3rd Amendment. No longer the 2nd Amendment.

Plaffelvohfen

@John_C_87

The current US law has nothing to do with justifications for either the pro-life or pro-choice positions... We're not talking about abortion "in the context of living in the US", one is not required to live in a specific country (here the US) to have a position on the issue of abortion, and the state of the law in any country is also irrelevant... Why would the US constitution matter but not the Belgium one? The Iranian one? or any other? 

The 2nd amendment is irrelevant to the issue of abortion... It relates, 1) to the US only, and 2) to guns, not abortion... 

John_C_87

The current US law has nothing to do with justifications for either the pro-life or pro-choice positions...

Provided that the state of pregnancy abortion cannot be proven as a basic self-incrimination that describes the crime of murder misleading woman as a group. Pregnancy abortion meaning is to complex to be basic principle.

John_C_87

The 2nd amendment is irrelevant to the issue of abortion... It relates, 1) to the US only, and 2) to guns, not abortion... 
I am saying the now 2nd Amendment will be moved to the 3rd Amendment position. A knew 2nd Amendment with liberty and freedom as basic principle will be held in a united State of constitution.  


By the way Pregnancy abortion is the use of lethal force. Female specific amputation might be the use of lethal force.

Plaffelvohfen

@John_C_87

If they add another amendment, it'll be the 28th... Amendments are added, not moved... *sigh*....................

piloteer

@ambee

You would force a rape victim to go through with a pregnancy they didn't want? Would you also force a woman to go through with a pregnancy even if it endangers her life and the fetuses life? Would you be OK with a government saying that we cannot be allowed to have a say about what happens in our bodies?  

TKDB

As long as there are adults who are willing to Adopt anywhere from one child, or two, or maybe even more?

Why rely on Abortion, as a means to end an unborn babies, rights to a quality of life, after being born, instead of being aborted?

I understand about seeking an abortion when it comes to rape or incest.

But when it comes to two consenting who neglected to use contraceptives, prior to the two of them being casually intimate, is a very sad situation to put an unborn baby through. 

SkepticalOne

@TKDB

...what about two consenting adults who used contraceptives?

ambee

@Dee ;
okay you wrote a lot and i think that we wont get anywhere productive by playing word games and getting upset so lets start with the easiest question.
why should a woman have the right to terminate her pregnancy ?
when do you believe she should not be able to have an abortion anymore?
(if you want me to i can go to your last message and pick out everything that i disagree with and say my opinion on it but i think this is a more productive way of going about the argument, one step at a time. i saw the conversation was becoming a bit aggressive so i just want to keep it civil.:) we may disagree but i will keep my responses nice and civil)

ambee

@SkepticalOne
okay
"Rights of zygotes, embryos, fetus, etc., is absurd. ..it puts a woman against the rights of her body."
i believe life starts at conception, not before.
"You're trolling, right?"
no
 "save the baby at all costs -  even if the mother has to die"? 

i dont believe the mother has the right to kill her baby. and even the president of planned parenthood said that with todays technology it is possible for almost every woman to be brought through pregnancy alive.
"I've never seen a biology book which makes moral/legal determinations"
a biology book, or just biology, tells us when life starts. 
"Do tell me where I can find this magical book of yours!"
any 10 grade biology book.
---- okay again i think that depiction of each thing we say will probably not get us that far so let me pose a question to you instead.
       when do you believe life starts?

ambee

"You would force a rape victim to go through with a pregnancy they didn't want? 

Would you also force a woman to go through with a pregnancy even if it endangers her life and the fetuses life? "

ok before i answer this, if we were to say ok all cases of rape, inset, or harm to the mother is okay but every other abortion case is illegal, would you agree with that?

"Would you be OK with a government saying that we cannot be allowed to have a say about what happens in our bodies? "
its not your body

Nicole.janice17

@John_C_87
i hope u recover from whatever drugs you are using, drugs are bad. get help

Dee

@ambee

Wait up , you made several statements which are totally untrue and when challenged refuse to address my responses, you claim I used word games yet you redefine the term child to include fetus, you claim women who abort are murderers yet this is merely just your opinion, you refuse to answer why you're for contraception which prevents a life being born and cannot defend such a stance.

You accuse me of aggression yet you're the one aggressively stating these things and now you refuse to defend your statements.

I will only answer your further questions when you st least have the courtesy to address my counters to your original piece 

TKDB

@SkepticalOne

@Plaffelvohfen

Do you have medically published information, that specifically mentions, in regards to where two consenting adults who created a baby, while using contraceptives? 

Because I'm sure that the Pro unborn baby supporting public, would be curious as to what published material, supports your below statement? 

"what about two consenting adults who used contraceptives?"

Plaffelvohfen

@TKDB

Are you saying you actually believe that every contraceptive method are 100% impervious to malfunctions or manufacturing defects??