Convince me that america is great

Plaffelvohfen

Could you define "great"? Sounds very subjective and open to interpretations...

TKDB

@LEMONZTHETIGERl

Any country, is a great, as it's citizens allow it to be.

"I highly disagree with the US being great and want to know what people say otherwise"

And you're entitled to your opinions, and perceptions.

But America, is where some of the citizens from 50 other countries, have illegally come into the country, for decades now.

And America, since 2018, has had some of its "Socialist Political representatives," trying to change the United States, into another Socialists country, based upon some of their Socialists Liberal ideologies?

America has some jealous, and their jealous attitudes, are being betrayed, by how they express their socialist attitudes, by what they say, before the audience, of a news media camera?

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
Ilhan Omar,
Bernie Sanders, 
Elizabeth Warren,
Rashida Tlaib,
Ayanna Pressley.

MayCaesar

I would say that no country can be great. Greatness is created and achieved by people, not by a governmental system or a chunk of land. And even then, what "greatness" is depends on the individual perspective.

Vaulk

I'd questions someone's motives for declaring that America isn't great.  Anything that falls into the anecdotal category...you can go ahead and leave it out.  When talking about just the facts, America tends to stand out above all other Countries.

TKDB

@MayCaesar

When the people of a country leave their own country to come into the United States illegally, something is going on, isn't it? 

300 Sanctuary Cities, that have been created to pander, cater, and to baby, those millions of illegal immigrants?

Those businesses, in the U.S., that utilize those same illegal aliens, under the table, for their cheap labor. 

Mexico has issues.
Nicaragua has issues.
Venezuela has issues.
Along with the other 47 countries, that have issues, and their citizens are coming to the United States as well.

"I would say that no country can be great. Greatness is created and achieved by people, not by a governmental system or a chunk of land. And even then, what "greatness" is depends on the individual perspective."

Plaffelvohfen

@Vaulk

" America tends to stand out above all other Countries."

• List of countries by Human Development Index: US ranked 13 out of 189 countries for 2018
• List of countries by inequality-adjusted HDI: US ranked 25 out of 151 countries for 2018
• 2018 Global Peace Index US ranked 121 out of 162 countries
• As of 2015, the US Maternal Mortality Ratio is 46th out of the countries ranked
  
• World Economic Forum 2016 Global Enabling Trade Report US ranked 22
  
• 2015 Programme for International Student Assessment, US ranked 40 of 72 in mathematics, 25 of 72 in science, 24 of 72 in reading
  
• 2016 data found the United States ranked first for child deaths by automobile accident and firearm, with overall child mortality 57% higher in the U.S. than other high-income countries.
  
• As of 2017, the United States life expectancy is 79.8 years at birth, ranking 42nd among 224 nations.
  

Doesn't mean it's "bad", it's still in the top 10-20 overall and a much better place than a lot of other countries, but it certainly does not "tends to stand out above all other Countries."  

Except in guns per capita, % of population in jail, and military budget, where the US is indeed 1st place... 

MayCaesar

@TKDB

I fail to see what any of this has to do with what I said. Mexico, Nicaragua and Venezuela are much less appealing places to live in than the US, in the eyes of the vast majority of people, but it is still ultimately all subjective. I have met people who are happy living in some of the poorest and most crime-ridden countries on Earth; while not common, such people do exist. I do suspect that mostly it is because of not knowing what they are missing, but the point still stands.

I find the US to be the best place on Earth for me personally, but, honestly, the US is not all that special, compared to other leading countries, when it comes to quality of life. The following countries - Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden, Norway, France, Denmark - all have comparable quality of life to the US, as far as the median resident's experience goes. What mostly differs is the experience at the tails of the wealth distribution, but the bulk of it differs very marginally.
It is much easier to make serious money in the US than almost anywhere else on Earth, which is one of the defining factors for me. But not everybody cares about it that much, and, let us face it, most people will never make it there anyway. I am not sure I will, although I will try my best.

Vaulk

Plaffelvohfen said:

@Vaulk

" America tends to stand out above all other Countries."

• List of countries by Human Development Index: US ranked 13 out of 189 countries for 2018
• List of countries by inequality-adjusted HDI: US ranked 25 out of 151 countries for 2018
• 2018 Global Peace Index US ranked 121 out of 162 countries
• As of 2015, the US Maternal Mortality Ratio is 46th out of the countries ranked
  
• World Economic Forum 2016 Global Enabling Trade Report US ranked 22
  
• 2015 Programme for International Student Assessment, US ranked 40 of 72 in mathematics, 25 of 72 in science, 24 of 72 in reading
  
• 2016 data found the United States ranked first for child deaths by automobile accident and firearm, with overall child mortality 57% higher in the U.S. than other high-income countries.
  
• As of 2017, the United States life expectancy is 79.8 years at birth, ranking 42nd among 224 nations.
  

Doesn't mean it's "bad", it's still in the top 10-20 overall and a much better place than a lot of other countries, but it certainly does not "tends to stand out above all other Countries."  

Except in guns per capita, % of population in jail, and military budget, where the US is indeed 1st place... 

I had removed my original explanation for America being great so I'll explain here.

In order to properly rank the U.S. in regards to how it compares to all the other countries you, instead of looking to achievement, look inversely at what America DOESN'T have compared to what all its competitors do have.

Just for example, Denmark and Sweden are fairly popular fallbacks when asking what Countries are better than the United States in greatness.  What do Denmark and Sweden have the America doesn't?  Answer: An almost ALL white population, a STATE RELIGION which equates to a failure to separate church from state.  The Danish Government claims to support religious freedom but that's a difficult reassurance to accept when the Government exclusively endorses a Lutheran state church.

With Sweden, according to their own police force, it's the surge in bombings being carried out against the law enforcement.  The bombing of prominent police leadership at their residence as well as bombings at police stations have become a regular occurrence while a surge in the use of HAND GRENADES during gang fights has created new problems in the once amazingly peaceful country.  Polls conducted in Sweden found that over 50% of the people polled were worried about crime and violence in their country, the only countries that polled higher under the same controls were South Africa, Peru, Mexico, and Chile. 

I've heard mention of Japan as a comparison to the United States but unfortunately Japan's Government openly condones child prostitution and even benefits from taxes generated from the thriving business where older men can pay to have sex with children at the age of 14 and sometimes younger.  So I'll ask for pardon regarding any greatness involving Japan as I'm personally of the opinion that they're disqualified on that alone. 

It pretty much goes on and on, any Country mentioned that is supposedly in competition against the U.S. for "Greatness" has debilitating issues and systemic problems that no one seems to either remember or know about period.  While we have crime here in the United States...we don't have surges of bombings, waves of terrorist attacks, Government endorsed child prostitution, ect....ect. 

I'll take on any example of another Country that's supposedly better on the greatness scale and explain why, overall, it's not even close. 

MayCaesar

@Vaulk

I do not think there is a single country on Earth that does not have debilitating issues and systemic problems. It really comes down to the individual preference: different issues and problems matter to different people differently.

You cannot just disqualify the entire country from the competition just because it has one specific issue affecting a negligible minority of people. If that was the case, then you would have to disqualify every country on Earth, and that would be very dishonest.

I feel very comfortable here in the US, and so did I when I lived in Australia, Canada or Japan. If you take your attention away from marginal facts and look at the everyday life of the typical resident, then in all these 4 countries life is very comfortable, stable and full of opportunities. Sure, there are some differences in fine details; for example, in Japan I can walk into a store, put my bag by the entrance and spend 20 minutes shopping, not fearing that someone will take the bag, while in the other 3 countries I cannot - but it is such a minor detail, it is hardly worth mentioning when really comparing these countries. Similarly, in the US I can walk up to a professor emeritus, clam him on the shoulder and say, "Hey, nick, what's up?", while in Japan I cannot - but, again, how much effect does it have on one's overall life?

I think people should focus less on these rankings and marginal facts, and more on what overall picture works best for them personally. For many people, the best life to be found here on Earth is in the US, but for many other people, there might be better places to be. As I said before, if I could choose where on Earth to live starting from scratch - the US would probably be number 2 on my list, and Australia would be number 1. I prefer the US system, but Australian climate and the people outweigh the other differences in my eyes. Now that I have started building my life here in the US, however, moving to Australia might be too much of a hassle, and the returns will not justify the investment if I choose to go down that route, so I will only move there if here in the US something makes continuing my living as it is undesirable.

We can compare statistics all we want, but, first, statistics do not tell the whole picture, second, statistics are somewhat subjective, and third, individual preference is more important than abstract numbers.

TKDB

@MayCaesar

Because you have some Politicians, creating laws to cater, pander, and baby those same illegal immigrants, by giving them UNDESERVED sanctuary, in those 300 cities around the country.

Those pro Illegal Immigrant supporting, and pro Open Border Politicians are making America great aren't they? 

Votes, votes, votes, or catering to the Illegal Immigration supporters, like yourself?

They make America great by giving those illegal immigrant criminals an unearned way of life, by compromising the Quality of Life, for the rest of the law abiding citizens way of life, by compromising their freedoms, via murder, sexual assaults, robberies, and theft.

And those same pro Illegal Immigrant supporting, and pro Open Border Politicians are FAILING their law abiding voters each day, and that as well, makes America great doesn't it? 

Plaffelvohfen

@Vaulk

"look inversely at what America DOESN'T have compared to what all its competitors do have."

Ok, the US doesn't have universal healthcare, universal access to abortion, affordable higher education, universal maternity leave, legally required paid holiday or vacation day...

That's just off the top of my head...

Vaulk

@MayCaesar

I think you and I have a great deal of common ground here.  I still think that there's more of an objective method for determining one Country's greatness over another but I can agree that your own personal preference holds more weight than any perceived overall statistic or consensus because not all people need or desire the same thing.  People who lived their entire life in North Korea might not thrive in total freedom and therefor might be better suited in a more socialist country ect...ect.  

When I mention certain debilitating issues I certainly don't mean to insinuate that there is ANY Country on Earth that is without its issues but moreover that there are Countries that have issues that are deal-breakers.  Specifically, government endorsed child prostitution speaks to a much deeper and crippling issue within a Country that sets the tone for Human Rights issues.  This goes hand in hand with the fact that police in Japan don't need warrants of any kind to search your home, toss you out, arrest you and hold you for months and, by the way, torture you into confession.  The vast majority of all convictions in Japan come from written confessions...because the police torture people until they willingly confess to whatever it is that they're accused of. 

In my opinion this goes above and beyond any personal preference because we're talking about which country is objectively better. 

MayCaesar

@Plaffelvohfen

You say it as if these are objectively bad things. I for one am happy to keep more money in my wallet than I would in other countries where I would have to sponsor other people's education, healthcare, etc.

This is just one more example of how subjective everything is. People really like to think that their version of a good system should be characterised as such universally, but in reality it is impossible. Which is why the high global mobility in the modern world is such an amazing thing: many of those who dislike the system they live in can relatively easily move elsewhere.


@Vaulk ;

I would say that in Japan police has more room for action and fewer legal restrictions than in the US, and the court system there is pretty terrible and biased against the accused - but on the other hand, the officers there rarely use their extended powers, as they have to undertake a very rigorous ethical training, and any instance of power abuse stays in their personal record for a very long time.

All in all, I would rather deal with the American police than with the Japanese police, but, again, the vast majority of people will never had to deal with the police to begin with, beyond simple traffic tickets or asking for directions, so I do not believe that this is a very important metric to use. It is something to take into account, however.

John_C_87

LEMONZTHETIGERl said:

I highly disagree with the US being great and want to know what people say otherwise

 America is great. Convince you Americas great? Why? What contribution are you making? I think you may need to be tested so eat a bowl of frosted flakes an tell us why they are great, proving first you have an understanding of what great is.

Vaulk

Plaffelvohfen said:

@Vaulk

"look inversely at what America DOESN'T have compared to what all its competitors do have."

Ok, the US doesn't have universal healthcare, universal access to abortion, affordable higher education, universal maternity leave, legally required paid holiday or vacation day...

That's just off the top of my head...

I agree with @MayCaesar on this one, just because it's a popular opinion that universal healthcare and all these other listed benefits are something that should be had by all people...doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Canada has an incredible coverage for universal healthcare but unfortunately what that translates into is that everyone has healthcare and therefor no one can have good healthcare unless they are willing to buy private healthcare.  Those that are unable to purchase private healthcare can expect to wait for years to be seen for something as critical as hip replacement surgery.  Averaging at $5.8 billion dollars comes the total cost of the patients waiting to receive medical care and treatment every year from lost wages due to pain, suffering and inability to work.  We're talking about $5,600 per patient, per year.  In poverty, how'd you like to make $19,400 for two years instead of $25,000 because you've been on the waiting list for life altering surgery for two years?  

The UK is in a similar boat with overcrowded hospitals so bad that patients get treated in hallways, stay in ambulances for hours and tens of thousands of critical surgeries, including cancer surgeries were flat out cancelled because demand outstripped the supply.  

Medicare for all would effectively ban private healthcare insurance as the industry would collapse overnight with the loss of over half their revenue, it doesn't matter what industry you're in...when you suddenly and permanently lose 50% of your profits...you go under.

I'm of the strong conviction that if you want something screwed up...let the government take over and run it.

Plaffelvohfen

@Vaulk

Of course it's just my opinion, "great" is subjective to begin with so it doesn't matter if our criterion differ, your subjective opinion is a valid as my own, right?

And as a Canadian myself, still living in canada for the last 50 years, I can confirm that we have a good affordable system, and no, you will not wait "years" if you need non-elective surgery, this of course may happen but is anecdotal. 85% of Canadians consider it a source of national pride, it's not perfect obviously, nothing is, but we're pretty much unanimous about it being a better system than the US system... The US system will never be accepted by Canadians...

smoothie

I live in it so its great

Phil413

@LEMONZTHETIGERl- I wanted to go to the Grand Canyon just to see it. I asked my coworker, who went, what it was like. He simply said, I can't explain it to you, you just have to see it. That is the message I have as to why America is great. You just have to see it and live it. 

MayCaesar

@Phil413

Can confirm: it is impossible to give the Grand Canyon justice with words, or even photos/videos. You have to be there to appreciate its magnificence.

I would say the same about the Death Valley too. It has that uncanny vibe to it that makes you feel like you are on another planet. It is so much different from everything else that can be found on Earth...

RickeyD

How many people leave America, surrender the citizenship and make their home elsewhere compared to the number of people clamoring to enter America at any cost?

RickeyD

@LEMONZTHETIGERl ; Leave...see ya!

th3on1y0n3

@LEMONZTHETIGERl
The important question to consider when judging America's greatness is 
Is there anywhere else in the world you would rather live? Is there any other country as diverse? Is there any other economy stronger than ours? Would you have the same human rights as you do in America? Would you have all the same possible opportunities as you do in America? Can you create a business and grow it into a thriving brand as easily as you can in America? Is there an open market allowing you to gain wealth in whatever capacity you want to live off of? No other nation can compare in medical research and development with us. It's because of us that hiv/aids is no longer a death sentence, we have the highest rate of cancer survival and we have the world's most advanced cancer research facility for aspiring oncologists to learn and develope at. Some of the world's finest universities are here, we have the strongest military which allows us to be very secure not just by way of from attack but in our ability to negotiate with foreign entities. America is the youngest of nations and in a matter of just a couple hundred years we have become the greatest experiment the world has ever seen. From the innovation that comes out of America like the automobile the iPhone the computer the internet electricity, to the simple little luxuries like baseball, disney movies, Disneyland, the ability to keep and bear arms, baby Yoda, Elvis, Taylor swift (insert whatever artist or genre you like) it was America that showed the world that the tradition of monarchs and dictators, and kings and queens were over. And rightfully so they existed far to long... We were the first to really demonstrate democracy. America is flawed but everyone else is as well. Compared to the rest of the world there is none greater than America.

Vaulk

I'm with th3on1y0n3

If you're open and honest about what Country is the greatest, look at who's leaving and where they're going.  How many people leave the United States every year to permanently move to another Country for better opportunities?  Whatever the opportunity is, healthcare, income, better quality of life, better technology...take your pick.

There's no formal tracking for who and how many are leaving the U.S. every year, nor is there a tracking system to determine which are leaving permanently and which are eventually coming back.  So with that we'll never have any accurate count despite multiple sources claiming both sides of the answer.

Do you know anyone who's permanently left the U.S. for a better life?

John_C_87

Not that America is not great because of this but the most popular way to leave the united states of America forever is self imposed death. Having said that I know several people who have left America. 

Vaulk

John_C_87 said:

Not that America is not great because of this but the most popular way to leave the united states of America forever is self imposed death. Having said that I know several people who have left America. 

Then they're not leaving for a better life.

Facts_Dude

One of Americas presidents (John F. Kennedy) stated in the cold war when the wall separating Berlin appeared, "Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in." (https://www.jfklibrary.org/archives/other-resources/john-f-kennedy-speeches/berlin-w-germany-rudolph-wilde-platz-19630626) This shows that Americans know that their country is faulty. But let's be real, every country is faulty. We've all had bad pasts in history and such (UK colonizing, Slavery in U.S., Etc.) so I think that no country should be called great unless they further accept their faults. This is why America is great. America has faced slavery and tried to make it up to native Americans, foreign-Americans, Etc. They have found a good portion of errors in their country and they have fixed, or tried to fix them. That is why America is great.