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free will or?

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if according to the bible that everything is pre-ordained and that it all follows gods plan; then is the free will we believe that we have just an illusion?




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  • Dr_MaybeDr_Maybe 138 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    if according to the bible that everything is pre-ordained and that it all follows gods plan; then is the free will we believe that we have just an illusion?
    Before we get started, where does it say everything is pre-ordained and that it all follows gods plan in the bible?
    ZeusAres42Dee
  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -  
    I guess that would be a matter of translation which is why my other post got so askew. so if you would rather, we can knock of the religious angle completely and you can give me your thoughts on if we have free will or not in the ordinary sense@Dr_Maybe
  • Dr_MaybeDr_Maybe 138 Pts   -  

    I’m not sure about it.


    Here is why:



    Plaffelvohfen
  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -  
    I was hoping for your own thoughts  I have read both sides all the way down to the micro level as well.  I FEEL like I have free will, but if I do not then that would imply a force beyond what I can cope with; either a intelligent  individual who is allowing me to think that I have free will, or something in quantum mechanics preventing me having free will or I have free will.  I am sure there are other options as well @Dr_Maybe
  • Dr_MaybeDr_Maybe 138 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    I was hoping for your own thoughts  I have read both sides all the way down to the micro level as well.  I FEEL like I have free will, but if I do not then that would imply a force beyond what I can cope with; either a intelligent  individual who is allowing me to think that I have free will, or something in quantum mechanics preventing me having free will or I have free will.  I am sure there are other options as well @Dr_Maybe
    My response would be exactly what Harris says in the video with one exception. I think you have a little bit of free will and a lot of no free will, it’s not all one or the other.
    Iamachristian
  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -  
    well gee whiz  are you sure ypu posted that video on your own free will?
    @Dr_Maybe
  • Dr_MaybeDr_Maybe 138 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    well gee whiz  are you sure ypu posted that video on your own free will?
    @Dr_Maybe
    No, I’m not sure.  Do you have free will?
  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -  
    I guess that is a puzzle that is in the mind of the beholder for now@Dr_Maybe
  • calebsicacalebsica 95 Pts   -  
    We have no free will
  • XavierWoodXavierWood 4 Pts   -  
    Everything is influence by God because he created everything but sin. That said, God had a plan at the begging of the universe, which mean is a sense we don't, because we cant do anything God has not known or ordained to happen. Everything that happens will give Glory to God one way or another. The anwser is not yes or no, its both. Partially yes, partially no
    Dr_MaybePlaffelvohfen
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 5557 Pts   -  
    There is no need to invoke any god to determine if people have free will, you need to go in the other direction and look at neuroscience. One day when our understanding of the brain is much better, we will be able to answer this question and either prove or disprove the concept of free will.

    This will all happen independently of anything that is happening or is said in holy texts from any language.

    As far as the bible goes, we know from the christian creation myth that god tells Adam and Eve they can eat of any fruit in the garden except from the tree of knowledge in the book of Genesis.  This implies humans have free will to decide. On top of this some fundamental christian ideas like heaven and hell break apart if humans do not have free will, because this would imply that they were damned to heaven or hell from the start.

    However, the bible is of course full of contradictions, and in Romans 8:28 - 30 we read: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"

    Therefore god planned everything from the start, meaning you don't have free will.

    The answer is naturally to abandon all logic when thinking or speaking about religion.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Dr_MaybeDr_Maybe 138 Pts   -  
    Everything is influence by God because he created everything but sin. That said, God had a plan at the begging of the universe, which mean is a sense we don't, because we cant do anything God has not known or ordained to happen. Everything that happens will give Glory to God one way or another. The anwser is not yes or no, its both. Partially yes, partially no
    Are you making choices with no choice but to make the choices god has made for you?
  • Dr_MaybeDr_Maybe 138 Pts   -  
    calebsica said:
    We have no free will
    When did you decide that we have no free will and did you think we did before that?
  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -  
    actually  back in the 1980s @, a neuro scientist named Benjamin libet showed that the brain would initiate certain unconscious mechanisims long before tour conscious thoughts actually seem to decide a certain action. Dr_Maybe
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5965 Pts   -  
    Whenever talking about "free will", we always have to ask: "Free from what?" No matter what point of view you have, will is still constrained by basic laws of physics, that in a way predetermine the outcome, so the will is never completely free from it.

    A more reasonable characterisation of "free will" would be a will free from direct external control. Whether the outcome is already predetermined or not, from one's point of view they can still think for themselves, make free choices and so on. There is an infinite regression problem here: if you know that the outcome is already predetermined, your actions are adjusted accordingly, hence the outcome changes, which, again, changes your actions, and so on.
    When you walk near the edge of the cliff, you can say, "Whether I will fall off the cliff or not is already predetermined, hence it does not matter what I do". Yet having said that, you have altered your vision of the world, changing your actions and, possibly, the outcome itself.

    Predetermination existing or not existing has no bearing on the world from a given person's point of view. They are still able to alter the outcome as far as their perspective is concerned, and even if in the grander picture the outcome is what it is, in that person's view it is not the case.

    Many people make the mistake of assuming that if everything is predetermined, then it does not matter what they do, since the outcome will be the same. Not at all: if so, the outcome has already accounted for this thought altering the actions. Mind struggles matter, and are a part of the process. You can decide, "Nothing matters, since the outcome is defined, hence I will do whatever I want", and start doing crazy things - but that, in turn, has also been predetermined by the same token.

    You always find yourself in the situation where the future is predetermined, yet you still have visible control over it. It is a bit of a paradox, but even more an illusion: how we see the world, and how it actually is, are two very different things, and no amount of philosophising is ever going to remedy this discrepancy.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • sdevaryasdevarya 36 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    if according to the bible that everything is pre-ordained and that it all follows gods plan; then is the free will we believe that we have just an illusion?

    See, this is a flaw. There are numerous religions in the world so one religion cannot dictate over another.
  • kakalam777kakalam777 57 Pts   -   edited November 2019
    There is no freewill only freedom of choice, if we had freewill we would have defied natural laws since birth.
  • maxxmaxx 1131 Pts   -  
    saying that, then show we have freedom of choice.
    @kakalam777
  • SandSand 307 Pts   -  
    There are too many times in the Bible that God shows predestination can be changed.
    God's predestination acts more like heavy wisdom.

    This is seen in Ezekiel 18:21-33 - "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. “All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. “Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

          “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? “When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. “Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. “Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. “But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

          “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. “Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? “For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.

    This shows the person can change even if God predestined them.
    I have also shown scriptures that show even God doesn't know what will happen

    Jeremiah 18:2-10 - "Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. “At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. “Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. “So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’

    relent = change one's mind

    Jeremiah 26:3 - "It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may relent of the disaster that I intend to do to them because of their evil deeds."
    Jonah 3:9 - "Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish."

    Jonah's whole story is God's pronouncement again the Ninevites that "he will destroy them".
    That statement is from the King of Ninevah who asked everyone to change their ways so, as he said, God may change his mind to spare our lives. 
    And God did. Jonah got upset and felt that God should have killed them as he said he would. God gave an example to explain it to Jonah, how he wants everyone to enjoy life.
    That he takes no delight in anyone's death.

  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 3985 Pts   -  
    @Sand

    If predestination can be changed then it was not predestination to begin with, by definition... 
    Dee
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • kakalam777kakalam777 57 Pts   -  
    @maxx ok here is a silly but realistic example between freewill, freedom of choice, God's  determinism and all-knowing attribute.

    First let's see the meanings of both:

    Free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

    Universe is full of constaints, gravity is a constraint, planets spinning in orbital fashion is a constrain, your lungs breathing, your cells dividing, your age and hair growing white are all happening without your will, so universe is constrained by natural laws. so there is no free will.

    Now let's see freedom of choice
    You can choose to go out naked, but you are constrained by public view, and shame, but still you have a choice to go out naked....you can choose to believe or reject any religion, but at birth you are constrained by the religion what your parents thought you, but once you gain knowledge later you can still choose another religion,  you are hungry for dinner but can choose to not eat food at dinner, these things which you don't do but can do fall under freedom of choice.

    Now the silly example for God's determinism:
    You go out far from home and end up near an enterance of a brothel, you see this hot women, practically naked seducing you to get in, you are aroused, first you shy away seeing here and there and end up seeing one of your relatives far away in some shop. You are nervous because he might see you. What will you do here?

    1. You going out was under constraint of your feelings.
    2. You are aroused and have arousal is under constraint of your nature as a male.
    3. You are shy and nervous because you saw someone you know is under constraint of your family and relative ties.

    Your choices are:
    A. You go into brothel irrespective of who you saw.
    B. You ignore the chick and go meet your relative say hi and all etc.
    C. You ignore both and go back home.

    You going out and having seen the brothel the women, your arousal and your relative far away are all under determinism of God and He won't influence you to make a choice between any of the three options, but he will still know what you will choose depending upon your personality or your core nature. Now lets include Biblical Devil, who has suggestive abilities, He can entice you to brothel "it's only some fun let's enter are you not a man etc..." and other such suggestions egging on your Manhood and ego. But at the end...

    What you choose is still your freedom of choice...the rest of the scenario being under various constraints.

    If you really want to loosely define freedom of choice, then it is merely "will to do something under your capacity". Where as freewill lacks any constraints by definition, hence non-existent.

    Do tell me what you think.
    Cheers.
  • kakalam777kakalam777 57 Pts   -   edited November 2019
    @maxx

    I think my post got deleted when I was trying to fix spellings, let me write the whole thing again. I will describe you free will or freedom of choice = will to do something within ones capacity. Let us see how both works in real life example:

    Free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

    Universe is full of constraints, gravity is a constraint, planets spinning in orbital fashion is a constrain, your lungs breathing, your cells dividing, your age and hair growing are all happening without your will, so universe is constrained by natural laws. so by that definition there is no free will. And we know from religious texts, that God has claimed that He created these laws.

    Now let's see freedom of choice You can choose to go out naked, but you are constrained by public view, and shame, but still you have a choice to go out naked....you can choose to believe or reject any religion, but you are constrained by what your parents religion is and what they thought you, you can learn and still leave that religion, you are hungry for dinner but you can choose to not eat food at dinner, these things which you don't do but can do fall under freedom of choice.

    Here is a silly yet simple example of God's determinism, Devils suggestion and your freedom of choice.

    You go out far from home and end up near an entrance of a brothel, you see this hot women practically naked seducing you to get in, and you are aroused by this, you first shy away seeing here and there and end up seeing one of your relatives far away in some shop. You are nervous because he might see you. What will you do here?

    A. You go into brothel irrespective of who you saw.

    B. You ignore the chick and go meet your relative say hi and all etc.

    C. You ignore both and go back home.

    Lets analyse the situation, 

    1. You going out was under constraint of your feelings.

    2. You are aroused and have arousal is under constraint of your nature as a male.

    3. You are shy first then nervous because you saw someone you know, is under constraint of your family and relative ties.

    What you choose is your freedom of choice...but everything else is under constraint.

    The God's determinism will be all for the 1 - 3 points, but he will not influence you. But He still knows what you will choose since he knows your core nature or real personality, and time is not a constraint for God, as it is His creation. Now lets include Devil, He can entice you by suggestion "its only some fun are you not a man?". What devil does entice you by egging your manhood and ego. But nothing further.

    But At the end what you choose is still your choice. 




  • SandSand 307 Pts   -  
    Exactly, the definition in modern English means unchanging.
    That is why the more accurate rendering of the word is "chosen", "predetermined", "foreordained".

    God predetermined a person by their actions it does not mean their future cannot change.

    Romans 8:27-30 "And God, who sees into our hearts, knows what the thought of the Spirit is; because the Spirit pleads with God on behalf of his people and in accordance with his will. We know that in all things God works for good with those who love him, those whom he has called according to his purpose. Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers. And so those whom God set apart, he called; and those he called, he put right with himself, and he shared his glory with them."


  • Dr_MaybeDr_Maybe 138 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    I was hoping for your own thoughts  I have read both sides all the way down to the micro level as well.  I FEEL like I have free will, but if I do not then that would imply a force beyond what I can cope with; either a intelligent  individual who is allowing me to think that I have free will, or something in quantum mechanics preventing me having free will or I have free will.  I am sure there are other options as well @Dr_Maybe
    Yes I know and it's even been tested and confirmed with experiment, but I don't think it's made it to the level of scientific theory yet. Certain aspects of quantum mechanics are non deterministic so at a fundamental level the universe is non deterministic. When I was young I sat in a planetarium and listened to how we could predict the positions of the stairs hundreds of thousands of years into the future. But what if one of them goes out or is flung off course by a black hole? Even at macro scales the universe is non deterministic.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 953 Pts   -   edited November 2019

    The Atheist strives/struggles with free will and the Omniscience of our Creator believing that foreknowledge negates one’s ability to choose. This is incorrect. I know my children and my wife with intimacy and I know the decisions they will make in almost every scenario in life. My knowledge of their decision before they actually make that decision does not negate or interfere with their free will to choose that particular decision.

    Our Omniscient Creator, Jesus Christ-Yeshua, knows our every thought before we think them but He does not deter us from choosing right v. wrong, good v. evil, life v. death, but allows free will to reign supreme so that love and relationship with Him and our fellowman can manifest in purity and authenticity. Our God does employ the Holy Spirit residing within His faithful on Earth to urge them, point them, direct them in the ways of righteousness but even in the lives of a believer, they remain agents of free will and this is of necessity in order that love and relationship with our Creator can manifest in purity and authenticity; otherwise, man becomes robotic and love-relationship become impotent.

    Our God simply works through and maneuvers around our choices to accomplish His perfect will for Time and Eternity. I have no doubt that our Creator has employed His omniscience to place certain men and women in strategic positions of authority or decision-making in order that these men would maneuver history toward God’s ultimate goal for Time and Eternity e.g. Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Pharaoh, King David, King Saul, the Prophets, the Apostles, Judas Iscariot, Hitler…and it’s not that our Creator negated the free will of these historical figures but that He placed them in a strategic position where their volitional propensities would be realized.

    Again, free will is absolutely essential for love and relationship to manifest in purity and authenticity. The supreme ethic given mankind by our Creator is the ethic of “LOVE” and in order for love to manifest in purity, one must possess the free will to choose hate, disobedience, disloyalty.






    PlaffelvohfenDr_Maybe
  • I believe that we have a free will. Why is there non-christians and christians? God gave us a choice. This is why he made Lucifer even though he knew that he would become satan. Its either follow satan, or follow god. 
  • But this is just what I see from my point of view.
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