Muhammad Married a six-year-old - was it moral?

kakalam777

This is Historian's fallacy, where you are assuming that the decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective as you which they didn't, hence irrelevant.
Prove me wrong otherwise, show me that they had same knowledge, perspective, culture and morality standards as today. 

ZeusAres42

kakalam777 said:

This is Historian's fallacy, where you are assuming that the decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective as you which they didn't, hence irrelevant.

That's not what is said or implied by me. Don't put words into my mouth, please. And have you actually got an argument that addresses what I said rather than a strawman? Also, have you got any arguments at all as opposed to just trying to find as many possible fallacies in others in other people's posts as you can? Due to your overuse of pointing out fallacies in other people, I can easily infer that you're quite new to the concept of fallacies; you're seeing fallacies where none exists. You'd do well to read the Ad Logicam Fallacy https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/51/Argument-from-Fallacy.

Not only that, you didn't read everything said here. Your post was too soon after I posted it. I suggest giving it a bit more thought. Just a few tips for you.

kakalam777

@ZeusAres42
I have already seen alex's video long ago, even before he was brutally rebutted by Mohammed hijab on his morality.
He is measuring the morality of 700AD with his morality compass which is again a historian's fallacy. And atheist have subjective morality by that definition, morality changes from one culture to another with desire, there is no true moral standard for it to compare against to. By that definition it was desirable to marry young in 700AD due to many factors, hence moral. 

ZeusAres42

@kakalam777

Here is your argument in standard form:

Premise 1: People thought it was right to do immoral things hundreds of years ago.

Conclusion: Therefore, it is still right and actually moral to do immoral things today.

Can you still not see the logical errors in your argument?

It's just as absurd as me saying we should still burn witches at the stake because that's what they used to hundreds of years ago in the UK. I'm sorry, but your definist and tradition fallacies don't cut it for a valid argument. Not only that but you've also failed to address other Muslims who do not hold the view that Muhhamad did marry a child, nor do they think it was right. I see how you've skipped this part:

A stateswoman, scholar, mufti, and judge, Aisha combined spirituality, activism and knowledge and remains a role model for many Muslim women today. The gulf between her true legacy and her depiction in Islamophobic materials is not merely historically inaccurate, it is an insult to the memory of a pioneering woman.

Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.
(Mulim Myriam Francois-Cerrah Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST First published on Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth)

One cannot help wonder if you're actually advocating for the Islamic faith or actually trying to justify child abuse.

kakalam777

Premise 1: People thought it was right to do immoral things hundreds of years ago.

Yes it was moral because she was already engaged to someone else [Mut'am ibn 'Addey] before the proposal of marriage from prophet came to her. 

Conclusion: Therefore, it is still right and actually moral to do immoral things today.

Only if you follow tribal rules and are not governed by other social political laws, morality has nothing to do when you marry, sex does.

ZeusAres42

@kakalam777

You haven't really done much at all to make any refutations against what was said by me in the OP yet. Let's not also forget how morality is being defined in the OP which was this: "morality is being defined here as the desire to want no harm to come to oneself and the desire to do no harm to others as well as the promotion of human wellbeing of oneself and others, and for humanity in general." And I have given countless rationales as to why both child marriage and child sex is harmful abuse which you have neglected to comment on.

You need to either concede or make better arguments than just cherry-picking little bits here and there and then making what you think are refutations.

kakalam777

@ZeusAres42
This is all relevant to 700AD not current times:
Sorry but marriage of your society is different from Islamic society marriage. Marriage for us is a contract, meaning the groom side pays some amount of money as mahr to the bride and the bride [if mature] or bride's father [if young] can consent to it. The groom then takes all financial needs of bride, even if she is young and up growing. And this contract can be annulled anytime by girl by keeping half the amount if she divorces the guy without sex, and if she did have sex/slept in the same bed without sex, she gets to keep full amount.
Further marriage and consummation is not same [we don't do honeymoons] ...meaning you can go without consummation [sex] after marriage for years and still be married to that girl, if guy wants to marry one more girl pay money to her and another contract, because Islamic culture have polygamy. Sex is not allowed until the girl reaches puberty and are having sexual urges. And pregnancy not allowed until she is physically fit to carry a child.

So tell me why would a piece of paper which can be annulled at anytime, need morality standards that too in 700 AD?
Further imagine if they are marrying two kids in some tribal village, will they start having sex as under ten? that is illogical in of itself.

Also you can see this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_zypf8DAU 

Dee

Muhammad was a predatory peadophile @Kakalam states that for a crime to take place it has to be proven which is complete  and utter nonsense it’s as if to say murder , child rape , robbery are not a crime unless proven.

I’ve heard over the years every possible excuse made by Muslims in an attempt to defend the peadophillia of the prophet , read on and do your own research to prove the veracity of my words, decent former  Muslims worldwide have recognised the truth of such which is why they are no longer Muslims @ tries to play the race and bigotry card now in a last ditch attempt to avoid the obvious and his latest stance is to accuse everyone of using fallacies as he has no defence and he knows it 

Prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was six, and had sexual intercourse with her while she still remained pre-pubescent at the age of nine lunar years. This fact has been recorded many times in Sahih ahadith

The age difference between 9 year old Aisha and 54 year old Muhammad was 45 years

This article discusses the DMS (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) of mental disorders and cites sahih hadiths to show that Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile according to clinical definitions.

For all related sahih hadiths confirming Aisha's age at marriage and consummation, see: Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Aisha. For a comprehensive refutation of all the claims that Aisha was older than 9, see: Aisha's Age of Consummation. And for all other apologetic arguments, see: Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha.

Aisha consented to the marriage. If it was abuse, she would have left Muhammad

In Islam, a virgin's silence is her "consent".To the rest of us, this does not constitute consent, and the idea that a young child's willingness to engage in sexual activity with a grown adult somehow makes the act morally justifiable is abhorrent. It is an excuse that many pedophiles use to justify their behavior.

In fact, Aisha did not consent to her marriage. This is the specific reason why Islamic scholars are "unanimously agreed that a father may marry off his young daughter without consulting her."Furthermore, "there is no age limit to be intimate with one's wife even if she is a minor (did not attain puberty)", but "when she attains puberty, she has the right to maintain the marriage or discontinue the marriage."

As to not leaving him; both of the young victims, aged 12 and 15, of Warren Jeffs, the polygamist cult leader, did not leave him. They "entered into unions with Jeffs willingly, and did not participate in the trial against him."Regardless of the victims support for him, he was still a pedophile and was convicted in 2011 of sexually abusing children.

Pedophiles prefer children, but Muhammad had many adult wives and only 1 child-bride

It is common knowledge that after Khadijah's death, Aisha, who was Muhammad's only child bride, was also his favorite wife,[45] and according to Islamic oral traditions, Muhammad preferred young virgin girls to "matrons",[46][47] he had sexual intentions for at least one other baby girl,[48][49] and he coveted a child princess still being wet-nursed.[50]

The stringent DSM-IV-TR clinical definition of pedophilia, which is applied to Muhammad's behavior here, also does not require a person to be solely or preferentially attracted to children for a positive diagnosis of pedophilia. The DSM-IV only requires that someone have had a sexual attraction for a child and have acted on that attraction at least once.

At that time, it was okay to have sex with 9 year olds in Arabia. It was a cultural norm

As they themselves have left behind no written records, there is no evidence of pedophilic marriages being accepted among the non-Muslim Arabs of Muhammad's time. The only sources we have are Muslim sources, so to claim that such a marriage was a cultural norm among all Arabs is baseless conjecture. Besides that, there is a hadith, where people found Muhammad kissing children and told him "But we, wallahi, we do not kiss children!". [52] How is it possible that kissing children was not ok, but having sex with them was?

During the Medieval period it was the norm in Jewish Middle Eastern cultures for girls to be given in marriage when they were 12-13 years old,[53] coinciding perfectly with the average age at menarche in the Medieval Middle East which was also 12-13 years.[26] A large age gap between the spouses was also opposed,[54][55] yet the age gap between Muhammad and Aisha was a massive 45 years.

Besides, a lot of other things were acceptable in the past, but that does not make them any more moral or right.

Drinking alcohol and gambling were both permitted activities in pre-Islamic Arabia, yet Muhammad chose to ban these relatively harmless "cultural norms".[56] Why did he not do the same for slavery or pedophilia rather than indulging in both himself?

As with pedophilia, Muhammad's actions perpetuated the existence of slavery by institutionalizing it within Islam. Muhammad was a slave-trader.[57] He not only owned many male[58] and female[59] slaves, but he also captured, sold, and had sex[60] with his slaves. Even Bilal, the famed "black Muslim", was bought in exchange for a black non-Muslim slave.[61]

Wikiislam 

ZeusAres42

@kakalam777

So your next argument is to ignore my last post,  as well as continue to ignore most of what was said by me in the OP which btw already addresses one or more of your later responses, and then to ask me questions which appear to go off in a tangent? If you haven't got anything else, then I think we're done here. Thanks for your responses and for keeping the thread going anyway.

kakalam777

WHAT IS CHILD MARRIAGE?Early marriage is a violation of children’s human rights. Despite being prohibited by international law, it continues to rob millions of girls under 18 around the world of their childhood. Early marriage denies girls their right to make vital decisions about their sexual health and well-being. It forces them out of education and into a life of poor prospects, with an increased risk of violence, abuse, ill health or early death.https://plan-international.org/sexual-health/child-marriage-early-forced

@ZeusAres42
But your title isn't about what you are asking is it? it is about was it moral to marry Aisha. which it was.

The prophet didn't follow international law, he followed sharia law, neither did rest of the world...so this is irrelevant.
There was no education in 700AD, so again irrelevant,
there was already high mortality due to hygiene and poverty in 700AD, so they married early to begin with,  again irrelevant...
There was no concept of forced marriage in 700 AD....hence irrelevant

Do you want me to break down every of your points bit by bit that conforms to modern moral ethics by 700AD standards? 

People thought it was right to do immoral things hundreds of years ago.

Back to your main point:  Your Premise 1 is wrong. Because Torah and Bible already had same morality principles before: That is No harm to oneself and no harm to others as well as promotion of social progression. And that is listed in 10 commandments and Jewish narrations, and this is 1000s of years ago which means this was also there 100s of years ago.

ZeusAres42

kakalam777 said:

People thought it was right to do immoral things hundreds of years ago.

Back to your main point:  Your Premise 1 is wrong.

But that was your premise in a previous on this thread; not mine. I was just repeating back to you your premise and argument in standard form. So, thank you for finally conceding that at least one of you're premises was wrong. However, your reasons as to why this is wrong are also wrong. It's already been explained why this premise and your conclusion is absurd, and I am not going to repeat myself.

kakalam777

@ZeusAres42
I was only referring to Arab tribal society, but you didn't specify that you said "People thought it was right to do immoral things hundreds of years ago." ....you should change that to Arab thought it was right...which I agree, because they used to bury infant girls....so obviously they had no moral liabilities.

Dee

@kakalam777

You’re ignorance is appalling you’re attempting the same dance with @ZeusAres42 as you did with me ......Let you education continue.......Read on ......

At that time, it was okay to have sex with 9 year olds in Arabia. It was a cultural norm

As they themselves have left behind no written records, there is no evidence of pedophilic marriages being accepted among the non-Muslim Arabs of Muhammad's time. The only sources we have are Muslim sources, so to claim that such a marriage was a cultural norm among all Arabs is baseless conjecture. Besides that, there is a hadith, where people found Muhammad kissing children and told him "But we, wallahi, we do not kiss children!". How is it possible that kissing children was not ok, but having sex with them was?

What are your responses  against the Hadiths which are held as sacred in Islam?

kakalam777

At that time, it was okay to have sex with 9 year olds in Arabia. It was a cultural norm

Yes it was....Have I ever denied that? and you were butt hurt about it being paedophilia, which it wasn't it was marriage contract, not an abduction due to lust and sexual abuse. Even His daughter married at 9. So what is the big deal? You condone grandfather having sex with child-granddaughter...in incest. But this is more socially accepted norm we talking about.

Dee

@kakalam777


But yet you cannot defend below ....do give it your best shot...... At that time, it was okay to have sex with 9 year olds in Arabia. It was a cultural norm

As they themselves have left behind no written records, there is no evidence of pedophilic marriages being accepted among the non-Muslim Arabs of Muhammad's time. The only sources we have are Muslim sources, so to claim that such a marriage was a cultural norm among all Arabs is baseless conjecture. Besides that, there is a hadith, where people found Muhammad kissing children and told him "But we, wallahi, we do not kiss children!". How is it possible that kissing children was not ok, but having sex with them was?

What are your responses  against the Hadiths which are held as sacred in Islam?

Then have a go at defending this ......

Pedophiles prefer children, but Muhammad had many adult wives and only 1 child-bride

It is common knowledge that after Khadijah's death, Aisha, who was Muhammad's only child bride, was also his favorite wife,[45] and according to Islamic oral traditions, Muhammad preferred young virgin girls to "matrons",[46][47] he had sexual intentions for at least one other baby girl,[48][49] and he coveted a child princess still being wet-nursed.[50]

kakalam777

@Dee
Hey I don't have to prove anything about history that is free to access for all. All I will do is defend the status of prophet, which by you has being nonsensically being said as Paedophile with other connotations attached to it by you such as "child abuse" using a definist fallacy.

I think if you ever married a child you would abuse your wife/husband, because for you that is standard train of thought
Marriage to a child = sex = child abuse. 
 kind of sick mentality you have there, how can you even have such thoughts for your partner in life and your soulmate. How barbaric can you be, such vile thoughts you have about a person who chose to marry. Sick very sick I am appalled by your train of thoughts....gross....puke....take your mind out of gutter will you, don't you have a shred of humanity to first develop feelings....a normal person develops feelings for someone in a month or a two if get to know better and here you are directly going for sex and abuse....tch tch....its true that if you read filthy stuff your mind will have filth...how was your upbringing? you turned out into a vile creature who only think about abuse as soon as one marries instead of fostering relationship. You make my stomach churn with your violence filled mentality. 
Develop some feelings of humanity for other humans will you?

Dee

@kakalam777

***/Hey I don't have to prove anything about history that is free to access for all. 

Yes I just gave you a fill of Muslim history proving Muhammad was like you a peadophile 

***All I will do is defend the status of prophet, which by you has being nonsensically being said as Paedophile with other connotations attached to it by you such as "child abuse" using a definist fallacy.

Yet you couldn’t address my piece from the sacred Hadiths you  


***I think if you ever married a child

I’m not a Muslim 

*** you would abuse your wife/husband, because for you that is standard train of thought
Marriage to a child = sex = child abuse. 

So you agree Muhammad was sick ? Got ya again  

 ***kind of sick mentality you have there, how can you even have such thoughts for your partner in life and your soulmate. How barbaric can you be, such vile thoughts you have about a person who chose to marry. Sick very sick I am appalled by your train of thoughts....gross....puke....take your mind out of gutter will you, don't you have a shred of humanity to first develop feelings....a normal person develops feelings for someone in a month or a two if get to know better and here you are directly going for sex and abuse....tch tch....its true that if you read filthy stuff your mind will have filth...how was your upbringing? you turned out into a vile creature who only think about abuse as soon as one marries instead of fostering relationship. You make my stomach churn with your violence filled mentality. 
Develop some feelings of humanity for other humans will you?

So you just totally agreed Muhammad and you were filthy dogs , I agree , I bet your whore of a mother goes somewhere else for the hot dog as your dog of a father and you are too busy trawling for kids 

RickeyD

@ZeusAres42 Muhammad was a 7th-Century murdering, lying, thieving, pedophile, who worshiped Allah-Satan as god and initiated a religious movement called "The Way of Islam" that morphed into a radicalized political movement that gave way to the Islamic Caliphate which, until stopped in 1924, murdered-butchered 270-million non-Muslims. Who is Allah?

Islam is most certainly an Abrahamic Religion as Islam finds its genesis in Ishmael born to Abraham through an adulterous relationship with Hagar. Ishmael is the progenitor of a people our Creator refers to as “wild donkeys” and it is through Abraham’s infidelity with Hagar that Lucifer-Satan has publicly introduced himself to mankind (Genesis 16:12; 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Lucifer’s sin in the Kingdom was covetousness, for Lucifer passionately desired to be like the Most High and desperately desired God’s worship, authority, dominion. It is Lucifer’s attempted coup de taut in the Kingdom before the creation of Time that initiated the creation of Time, the Universe, Earth, mankind, Hell; this was done in order that the sin of Lucifer could be removed from the Kingdom and dealt with within the constraints of Time apart from the Kingdom were nothing impure is permitted to exist (2 Timothy 1:10; 1 John 3:8; Revelation 21:27).

Lucifer, a beautiful cherub angel (Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:12-17), coerced one-third of the entire angelic realm to follow him in a cosmic rebellion (Revelation 12:4), a coup de taut, against our Creator, Jesus Christ-Yeshua; therefore, Lucifer and the rebellious angels (now demons) were removed from the Kingdom (Luke 10:18; Isaiah 14:12-15). Our Creator spoke into existence the realm of Time by fashioning unseen elements of the Spiritual World into matter visible to the senses of mankind constrained by Time (Hebrews 11:3) and within the constraints of Time, our Creator placed this Universe, Earth, mankind and Lucifer (Genesis 3).

It was in the Garden of Eden that the struggle between Yeshua and Lucifer/Allah was initiated (Genesis 3:14-15) and that struggle can be observed throughout the pre-flood and post-flood generations with its most virulent episode manifesting at the Crucifixion of Yeshua. It was not until the 7th-Century that Lucifer publicly introduced himself through an Arabic moon-god (2 Corinthians 11:14) and a false prophet, desert murderer and pedophile named Muhammad. It is through the way of Islam that Allah-Satan has received power, dominion, worship, as he fervently battles against the people of Yeshua i.e. the Jews and the Christians. Allah-Satan finds acceptance and legitimacy by touting the relationship of Islam with Abraham via Hagar via Ishmael.

Allah-Satan conspired with Hitler and untold others to destroy the Jew, but Allah-Satan in his efforts to annihilate the Jewish people unwittingly inspired the “Never Again” movement and the Nation of Israel was reborn (1948); the struggle between Allah-Satan and Yeshua has exponentially increased subsequent to the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy (Ezekiel 34:13). It will ultimately be Islam-Allah-Satan and his allies, Russia-China-Arabic coalition, that sparks the coming Apocalypse that will be a nuclear war initiated in Jerusalem, Israel. Yeshua will be victorious (Revelation 5:5)! Know your enemy!

ZeusAres42

@kakalam777

You also defined morality as the desire to do no harm in a previous thread. That's also how I am defining it here as well. So, forget about the word morality and the prophet for a moment and just try to explain to me why the following is wrong and child marriage and/or child sex is harmless:

Child marriage

More than 250 million women alive today were married before their 15th birthday, many against their will. Child marriage robs them of their childhoods, education, health and freedom, and subjects girls to rape and abuse for the rest of their lives.

https://www.actionaid.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/violence-against-women-and-girls/child-marriage

What is the difference between child marriage, forced marriage and arranged marriage? Child marriage is any formal marriage or informal union where one or both people are under 18 years old. A forced marriage is where one or both people do not consent to the marriage and pressure or abuse is used. Pressure can include threats, physical or sexual violence, and financial pressure. This is different to an arranged marriage, where both people have consented to the union but feel free to refuse if they want to. All child marriages are forced, because a child cannot provide informed consent, and are therefore a violation of children’s rights.https://www.actionaid.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/violence-against-women-and-girls/child-marriage

WHAT IS CHILD MARRIAGE?

Early marriage is a violation of children’s human rights. Despite being prohibited by international law, it continues to rob millions of girls under 18 around the world of their childhood. Early marriage denies girls their right to make vital decisions about their sexual health and well-being. It forces them out of education and into a life of poor prospects, with an increased risk of violence, abuse, ill health or early death.https://plan-international.org/sexual-health/child-marriage-early-forced

Being forced to marry

Nobody has the right to force you to do something you don't want to do. You can talk to a counsellor any time about how you feel and if you're having problems with your family. Some families force their children to marry because they: think it’s an important part of religion or cultureare worried about the family’s reputation and honour (in some cultures also known as 'izzat')want all of the family’s money to stay togetherwant to marry their children off in exchange for moneydon’t approve of their child being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgenderdon’t want their children to have relationships or sexfeel pressured by the community or other family members to follow traditionswant to keep family values and honour. But none of these reasons are okay. And nobody has the right to force you into marriage.
https://www.childline.org.uk/info-advice/bullying-abuse-safety/crime-law/forced-marriage/

I think it also goes without saying that having sex with a child is sexual abuse (AKA molestation). But let's give some rationales anyway:

3.2 The effects of child sexual abuse

The Inquiry has heard that child sexual abuse can have wide-ranging and serious consequences.[1] For some victims and survivors these effects endure throughout adult life. Child sexual abuse can affect psychological and physical well-being, family and intimate relationships, faith, and education and career. Victims and survivors can also be two to four times more likely to become victims of sexual, physical or emotional abuse again in their lifetime.[2]

https://www.iicsa.org.uk/publications/inquiry/interim/nature-effects-child-sexual-abuse/effects-child-sexual-abuse

Relationships with children and grandchildren

Perhaps one of the saddest consequences of child sexual abuse is the damaging effect it can have on parenthood. Some victims and survivors fear that the sexual abuse they suffered as a child will mean that they will not be safe parents ‒ or that others will consider them to be a danger to their own children. Some victims and survivors have talked about not being able to change nappies or even hug their own children.https://www.iicsa.org.uk/publications/inquiry/interim/nature-effects-child-sexual-abuse/effects-child-sexual-abuse

Effect on emotional well-being and mental health

Victims and survivors of child sexual abuse cope and respond to abuse in different ways, and their response can change over time.[6] For some, the psychological harm can be at least as severe ‒ and at times more enduring ‒ than the physical injuries sustained during the sexual abuse. Around the time of sexual abuse, children can experience a range of emotions, including fear, sadness, anger, guilt, self-blame and confusion.[7], [8] Victims and survivors can feel humiliated or self-conscious, and will often not feel equipped or able to talk about what has happened.https://www.iicsa.org.uk/publications/inquiry/interim/nature-effects-child-sexual-abuse/effects-child-sexual-abuse

Furthermore, I would also like your thoughts on this:

Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.
(Mulim Myriam Francois-Cerrah Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST First published on Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth)

You keep on failing to say anything about other Muslims including Muslim shcolars that do not hold the view that Muhammad did marry Aisha when she was a child, nor do they think it was right to do so. More recently, in the West, some Muslim communities now state that Aisha was most likely sixteen when she married Muhammad. "Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7;[16] other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony;[17] some sources put the date in her teens; but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars."

"Age at marriage

See also: Criticism of Muhammad § Age of 3rd wife Aisha, Historicity of Muhammad, Islam and children § Marriage, and Child marriage

There was no official registration of births at the time that Aisha was born, so her date of birth, and therefore date of marriage, cannot be stated with certainty.[25] Her age is not mentioned in the Qur'an. All discussions and debate about her age at marriage rely on, firstly, the various ahadith, which are regarded by most Muslims as records of the words and actions of Muhammad and as a source for religious law and moral guidance, second only to that of the Qur'an. Unlike the Qur'an, not all Muslims believe that all ahadith accounts are divine revelation, and different collections of ahadith are given varied levels of respect by different branches of the Islamic faith.[26] Sunni, various branches of Shia (such as Ismaili and Twelver), Ibadi and Ahmadiyya Muslims all regard different sets of ahadith as "strong" or "weak" in the power of their evidence, depending on their perceived provenance.[27][28]"

kakalam777

@ZeusAres42
For this day and age in society it is harm, because there is education, and other priorities. And education is preferred over marriage. Hence, if you are cutting education and marrying the girl then it is harmful for girl herself and society progressing.

Now lets take ancient Arab as example: 
This is again related to 700 AD,

1. There was no emotional well being for Bedouins in a tribal Arabs....they had nothing to do all day, no education, no job, no stress, depression or anxiety....so what emotional well being are you talking about or want from them? and why would Bedouin people even care about emotional well being in their carefree life? This is again projecting modern lifestyle and ethics to 700AD remote Bedouin tribe,  This best way to verify this is by going and living in tribes of Papua guinea now for sometime and see what emotional well being they need. The have child sex there. So we can analyse if they need emotional well being in their life, when they have nothing to do all day.

2. There was no concept of forced marriage, when Abu Bakr married Aisha.
The concept of consent for marriage was introduced by prophet Himself with Aisha, don't you know that? after His marriage with Aisha that too. If you are using consent as a weapon to accuse then you are pointing a weapon at the weapon-smith that invented it. Basically you are accusing them using their own philosophical thoughts.

Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet said: "A non-virgin woman may not be married without her command, and a virgin may not be married without her permission; and it is permission enough for her if she remains silent (because of her natural shyness)." [Al-Bukhari:6455, Muslim & Others].  

3. Impregnating was/is not allowed for pubertal girls, need to have fully developed body.

You do realise that sex is pleasurable feeling when someone reaches puberty, have you not been through it?
Harm = forcing, beating, injury, BDSM, rough sex....Do you think those concept existed in 700AD to be done with a wife?

Further it is not that Aisha was unaware she was not His wife, she herself reported in Hadith, she had inclination about her marriage to prophet. If she knew she was married do you think she was unaware of sexual knowledge. She narrated more hadiths about sex than anyone else in the book of hadiths.

Dee

@kakalam777

Interesting you only want to reference Hadiths that are meaningless regarding the topic , what defence have you for the following?......

kakalam777

@Dee
You can keep your damaged brain cells and poisoning the well fallacy with you. 

ZeusAres42

@kakalam777

Ok, you have now given some answers for the first question I asked you. At least you have answered even though I don't agree with a lot of what you've said. Now, would you mind commenting on this:

Furthermore, I would also like your thoughts on this:

Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.
(Mulim Myriam Francois-Cerrah Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST First published on Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth)

You keep on failing to say anything about other Muslims including Muslim scholars that do not hold the view that Muhammad did marry Aisha when she was a child, nor do they think it was right to do so. More recently, in the West, some Muslim communities now state that Aisha was most likely sixteen when she married Muhammad. "Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7;[16] other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony;[17] some sources put the date in her teens; but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars."

"Age at marriage

See also: Criticism of Muhammad § Age of 3rd wife Aisha, Historicity of Muhammad, Islam and children § Marriage, and Child marriage

There was no official registration of births at the time that Aisha was born, so her date of birth, and therefore the date of marriage, cannot be stated with certainty.[25] Her age is not mentioned in the Qur'an. All discussions and debates about her age at marriage rely on, firstly, the various ahadith, which are regarded by most Muslims as records of the words and actions of Muhammad and as a source for religious law and moral guidance, second only to that of the Qur'an. Unlike the Qur'an, not all Muslims believe that all ahadith accounts are a divine revelation, and different collections of ahadith are given varying levels of respect by different branches of the Islamic faith.[26] Sunni, various branches of Shia (such as Ismaili and Twelver), Ibadi and Ahmadiyya Muslims all regard different sets of ahadith as "strong" or "weak" in the power of their evidence, depending on their perceived provenance.[27][28]"

kakalam777

Furthermore, I would also like your thoughts on this:

Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.
(Mulim Myriam Francois-Cerrah Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST First published on Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth)

You keep on failing to say anything about other Muslims including Muslim shcolars that do not hold the view that Muhammad did marry Aisha when she was a child, nor do they think it was right to do so. More recently, in the West, some Muslim communities now state that Aisha was most likely sixteen when she married Muhammad. "Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7;[16] other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony;[17] some sources put the date in her teens; but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars."

I was busy reading this article,

I only use what is available to me, that is direct statements and biography from Aisha herself....not the implication and timeline that scholars use to extrapolate the age.

Until they can prove that with proper methodology, I will stick with what she said herself.

And it is not like I condone child marriage in this day and age, but projecting the moral standards of today to 600AD is ridiculous, which most anti-islamist do.

ZeusAres42

kakalam777 said:

Furthermore, I would also like your thoughts on this:

Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.
(Mulim Myriam Francois-Cerrah Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST First published on Mon 17 Sep 2012 14.00 BST, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth)

You keep on failing to say anything about other Muslims including Muslim shcolars that do not hold the view that Muhammad did marry Aisha when she was a child, nor do they think it was right to do so. More recently, in the West, some Muslim communities now state that Aisha was most likely sixteen when she married Muhammad. "Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7;[16] other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony;[17] some sources put the date in her teens; but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars."

I was busy reading this article,

I only use what is available to me, that is direct statements and biography from Aisha herself....not the implication and timeline that scholars use to extrapolate the age.

Until they can prove that with proper methodology, I will stick with what she said herself

Except that there is no clear passage where she actually describes her age in the Quaran. Hence for the uncertainty about how old she actually was.

In addition, some modern Muslim scholars have more recently cast doubt on the veracity of the saying, or hadith, used to assert Aisha's young age. In Islam, the hadith literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur'an. While the Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

By the way, if you had lead with this you may have made a better argument in defense of the Islamic faith; that's exactly what the Muslim woman in this article is doing.

Dee

@kakalam777

****You can keep your damaged brain cells and poisoning the well fallacy with you. 

Ha , ha I’m quoting directly what it says in your Hadiths and you agree it’s poison .....Well done we have a breakthrough.......

kakalam777

@ZeusAres42

Except that there is no clear passage where she actually describes her age in the Quaran. Hence for the uncertainty about how old she actually was.

Yes there are no passages of her age, because Quran is not about her. 

By the way, if you had lead with this you may have made a better argument in defense of the Islamic faith; that's exactly what the Muslim woman in this article is doing.

I can't, for that I have to analyse the whole timeline with all the implications involved to lead to that conclusion. I think they are taking the age of Asma's death who died at age 100 in 73Hijri calender, she was the elder sister of Aisha and 10 years older...so they going back taking her age for timeline construction.  She was born in 595 – 692 CE...this is confirmed.  But there is only statement that she was 10 years older than Aisha not a prove with date. So I can't take that as a proper evidence. 

There is one more issue, if she was 100 in 692 CE how come her date of birth is not 592 CE but 595? 

You see the discrepancies. Hence I will not take such tangents to prove my points. 

 

ZeusAres42

kakalam777 said:

@ZeusAres42

Except that there is no clear passage where she actually describes her age in the Quaran. Hence for the uncertainty about how old she actually was.

Yes there are no passages of her age, because Quran is not about her. 

By the way, if you had lead with this you may have made a better argument in defense of the Islamic faith; that's exactly what the Muslim woman in this article is doing.

I can't, for that I have to analyse the whole timeline with all the implications involved to lead to that conclusion. I think they are taking the age of Asma's death who died at age 100 in 73Hijri calender, she was the elder sister of Aisha and 10 years older...so they going back taking her age for timeline construction.  She was born in 595 – 692 CE...this is confirmed.  But there is only statement that she was 10 years older than Aisha not a prove with date. So I can't take that as a proper evidence. 

There is one more issue, if she was 100 in 692 CE how come her date of birth is not 592 CE but 595? 

You see the discrepancies. Hence I will not take such tangents to prove my points. 

 

But you will do everything you can to justify a belief you do have that is not based on any evidence? This is understandable, especially if you've had this belief for so long. It can make one very uncomfortable when they come across new information that is in conflict with their strongly held beliefs regardless of how irrational and lacking in evidence those beliefs are. AKA Cognitive Dissonance - https://www.britannica.com/science/cognitive-dissonance. This also leads one to often make the Special pleading Fallacy: (the fallacy you've made quite a bit here lately)

Special Pleading

Description: Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification.  Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/163/Special_Pleading

Where you're making this fallacy is by saying child marriage is harmful today but not harmful hundreds of years ago because people didn't know it was harmful, which also doesn't make much sense, something is harmful regardless of whether it was yesterday, yesteryear or hundreds of years ago; period.

kakalam777

@ZeusAres42

But you will do everything you can to justify a belief you do have that is not based on any evidence? 

What is bigger evidence than Aisha own words?

If you have any better way to say she was lying or unaware of her own age and can prove me wrong, I am all ears.

If they have technology where you can analyse the age of a person using DNA then I think we will have substantial evidence, because some of her things are in closed museums in Saudi.

ZeusAres42

@kakalam777

But you will do everything you can to justify a belief you do have that is not based on any evidence? This is understandable, especially if you've had this belief for so long. It can make one very uncomfortable when they come across new information that conflicts with their strongly held beliefs regardless of how irrational and lacking in evidence those beliefs are. AKA Cognitive Dissonance - https://www.britannica.com/science/cognitive-dissonance. This also leads one to often make the Special pleading Fallacy: (the fallacy you've made quite a bit here lately)

Special Pleading

Description: Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification.  Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/163/Special_Pleading

Where you're making this fallacy is by saying child marriage is harmful today but not harmful hundreds of years ago because people didn't know it was harmful, which also doesn't make much sense, something is harmful regardless of whether it was yesterday, yesteryear or hundreds of years ago; period.

But you will do everything you can to justify a belief you do have that is not based on any evidence? 

What is bigger evidence than Aisha own words?If you have any better way to say she was lying or unaware of her own age and can prove me wrong, I am all ears.

But there are no accurate historical records of her saying this anywhere. You also need to remember that religious scripture doesn't just appear out of the sky one day; they get written, translated, transmitted, updated and corrected over the course of many years by fallible human beings.

Moreover, if Muhammad was a good man, and the messenger of Allah and Allah was all good and all-knowing then I highly doubt he would have married a nine-year-old, and that Allah would never have allowed it. 

Anyway, I think we may just have to agree to disagree. I respect you as a person, I respect Islam in general, and Islamic people in general. However, I don't respect all the ideas of religious faiths including Islam, as well as many ideas that many individuals appear to advocate.

kakalam777

Where you're making this fallacy is by saying child marriage is harmful today but not harmful hundreds of years ago because people didn't know it was harmful, which also doesn't make much sense, something is harmful regardless of whether it was yesterday, yesteryear or hundreds of years ago; period.

By our standards and moral ethics yes it is, but the question is did the people of hundred years ago had the same mentality as you and I do?

kakalam777

Moreover, if Muhammad was a good man, and the messenger of Allah and Allah was all good and all-knowing then I highly doubt he would have married a nine-year-old, and that Allah would never have allowed it. 

Yes you are right if Allah was good and all-knowing then he will not allow marriage.
But you are forgetting, all the laws about morality, social rights, women rights, marriage consent, etc were revealed after the marriage of Aisha not before it. And she became the witness to all this being someone teaching it herself.