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Breaking news: The most important abortion case since Roe has begun.
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Arguments

  • @YeshuaRedeemed ; Too little too late for America...America's Constitutional Republic will die choking on the blood of 61-million American babies murdered in the womb subsequent to Roe/73. God's wrath has burned too long. My plea and warning to President Trump: https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/2017/09/08/president-trump-a-warning-a-prophecy-a-plea/



    YeshuaRedeemedsmoothie
  • Why are we still debating abortion in this country? I can sum up the entire thing in less than 30 seconds with 1 info graphic, and give the only logical solution, which is to decouple sex and childbirth through the creation of drugs and treatments which prevent pregnancy until BOTH parents decide they want to have a child.

    I am convinced that this is an issue of technology, not morality because both sides are in the moral wrong, so I made my own, which I have dubbed Pro-Freedom.

    Invest in science and technology and reap the rewards of increased personal freedom and decreased suffering. Tolerate neither oppression nor unnecessary death!




    YeshuaRedeemedPlaffelvohfensmoothie
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; Too little too late for America...America's Constitutional Republic will die choking on the blood of 61-million American babies murdered in the womb subsequent to Roe/73. God's wrath has burned too long. My plea and warning to President Trump: https://rickeyholtsclaw.com/2017/09/08/president-trump-a-warning-a-prophecy-a-plea/



    This is my mody, I have the right to choose what to do with my body. You don't have the right to judge.
  • Why are we still debating abortion in this country? I can sum up the entire thing in less than 30 seconds with 1 info graphic, and give the only logical solution, which is to decouple sex and childbirth through the creation of drugs and treatments which prevent pregnancy until BOTH parents decide they want to have a child.

    I am convinced that this is an issue of technology, not morality because both sides are in the moral wrong, so I made my own, which I have dubbed Pro-Freedom.

    Invest in science and technology and reap the rewards of increased personal freedom and decreased suffering. Tolerate neither oppression nor unnecessary death!




    Abortion is not murder.
    Happy_Killbot
  • @Happy_Killbot

    Are you talking about genetically modifying the human genome using CRISPR to make oviparous humans? Now that is an interesting idea!!  :mrgreen: 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 2310 Pts
    edited November 27
    I have always held the position that abortion is an absolutely irrelevant category in the modern society, which should not constitute a serious topic for a political discussion. While banning/restricting abortion makes very little sense and obviously violates human rights, banned/restricted abortion does not affect lives of any responsible individuals, and irresponsible individuals have only themselves to blame for the consequences anyway.

    If the abortion is unrestricted, then women who don't want to give birth to a child and go through all the torture it implies can satisfy their desire, not affecting anyone else's lives. Hence all is well.

    If the abortion is restricted, then women and their partners can just take very basic precautions, that are recommended in regular sex anyway, and avoid the need for abortion in virtually all cases in the first place. Hence all is well.

    There are so many relevant topics to talk about, and that abortion remains this large constitution of a divide between two major political movements in the US in the 21st century is truly bizarre.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed That depends on how you define murder, but the reality is something that is alive is dying by artificial means.

    The abortion debate is like arguing about how a house fire should be fought. Should you contain the fire and let one house burn, or fight the fire directly and risk it spreading?

    I have a better Idea: Lets make houses fire-proof!

    If a sexually active has the option to buy and use affordable birth control, it is more than reasonable that she should.

    Why is there no male equivalent?

    Condoms suck and vasectomy requires surgery that carries risk of being irreversible.

    There are several reasons for this, the first being that it is much more difficult to create because males are always potent, where females can only get pregnant during a certain window of time. Pregnancy has always been seen as a female issue, so drug companies have been unwilling to invest the capitol needed to create it until recently.

    Imagine if you will, a gel a sexually active male could rub on his shoulders which would decrease his sperm count to 0.01% of what it normally is. If this treatment was widely accepted and used in conjunction with female birth control, ( I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be ) that could reduce unwanted pregnancies to 1,000's per 100 million people instead of tens of thousands per 100 million people.

    At this point, abortion can be legalized without throwing up much of a fuss because you are more likely to die from the common cold.

    If you want to debate me, at least make some discussion about this being a technological issue or not, instead of just ignoring my claim.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Plaffelvohfen No, this was more a suggestion for male-equivalent birth control but why not?
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @MayCaesar ;
    There are so many relevant topics to talk about, and that abortion remains this large constitution of a divide between two major political movements in the US in the 21st century is truly bizarre.
    Not so bizarre actually, it's a very polarizing issue and as such, it's a potent political tool unfortunately... But I do agree that there are more relevant topics to address in the 21st century...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MayCaesar said:
    I have always held the position that abortion is an absolutely irrelevant category in the modern society, which should not constitute a serious topic for a political discussion. While banning/restricting abortion makes very little sense and obviously violates human rights, banned/restricted abortion does not affect lives of any responsible individuals, and irresponsible individuals have only themselves to blame for the consequences anyway.

    If the abortion is unrestricted, then women who don't want to give birth to a child and go through all the torture it implies can satisfy their desire, not affecting anyone else's lives. Hence all is well.

    If the abortion is restricted, then women and their partners can just take very basic precautions, that are recommended in regular sex anyway, and avoid the need for abortion in virtually all cases in the first place. Hence all is well.

    There are so many relevant topics to talk about, and that abortion remains this large constitution of a divide between two major political movements in the US in the 21st century is truly bizarre.
    It is not irrelevant for women to have the right to choose. Bodily choice is a human right.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed ; When pregnancy is involved, there is ZERO bodily autonomy and the life within the womb is just as valuable as the life that is nourishing same. Only the evil and wicked would suggest that simply because a child feeds from its mother that said child is not worthy of life and sustenance...this is the work of Satan not logic, science, wisdom. You are fighting to murder babies, our most innocent and you are storing up wrath against yourself in the Day of Wrath and your punishment will be justified.

    smoothie
  • @YeshuaRedeemed ; You discuss the 61-million babies murdered in the womb subsequent to Roe/73 as if you were discussing the topic of recycling v. landfills. Your naturalism and your atheism has hardened your heart and removed from you wisdom, discernment, understanding. You are calloused and hard-hearted and darkness follows you.
    YeshuaRedeemedsmoothie
  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; When pregnancy is involved, there is ZERO bodily autonomy and the life within the womb is just as valuable as the life that is nourishing same. Only the evil and wicked would suggest that simply because a child feeds from its mother that said child is not worthy of life and sustenance...this is the work of Satan not logic, science, wisdom. You are fighting to murder babies, our most innocent and you are storing up wrath against yourself in the Day of Wrath and your punishment will be justified.

    Wrong. This is my body, and I have the right to choose. Rape culture is when a woman's body is treated like community property.
  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; You discuss the 61-million babies murdered in the womb subsequent to Roe/73 as if you were discussing the topic of recycling v. landfills. Your naturalism and your atheism has hardened your heart and removed from you wisdom, discernment, understanding. You are calloused and hard-hearted and darkness follows you.
    My body is not community property. I am not a baby machine.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed ; If you don't want a child, keep your legs closed. Stop murdering babies for your narcissism.
  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; If you don't want a child, keep your legs closed. Stop murdering babies for your narcissism.
    I have the right to choose what to do with MY body!
  • @YeshuaRedeemed ; No you don't, not by law. Legally, you can't kill your body, you can't inject-consume substances that are illegal into your body; you can't use your body to commit violations of the criminal code; you can't use your body to harm others; you are not free to do just anything with your body and when you spread your legs and welcome another into your vagina and you become pregnant you have voluntarily surrendered bodily autonomy and you have no "right" to murder the life within you. That is evil, defined.
    Plaffelvohfensmoothie
  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; No you don't, not by law. Legally, you can't kill your body, you can't inject-consume substances that are illegal into your body; you can't use your body to commit violations of the criminal code; you can't use your body to harm others; you are not free to do just anything with your body and when you spread your legs and welcome another into your vagina and you become pregnant you have voluntarily surrendered bodily autonomy and you have no "right" to murder the life within you. That is evil, defined.
    Yes I do have the moral right to choose what to do with my body. Bodily choice is a right.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed ; As I told you and pointed out in the law...you do NOT possess the right to do anything you desire with your body and you certainly do not have the right to murder your child in your womb regardless of what SCOTUS might say.




    smoothie
  • TKDBTKDB 355 Pts
    What about the Unborn babies Rights?

    It's a closeted conversation, when two consenting adults, create an unconsensual baby, but the babys Rights get censored from the conversation, as it's unconsensually developing inside of the ladies womb?

    It's educationally fascinating to see how the millions of unborn babies who have been aborted, got their voices, and their Rights taken from them, via being aborted, from a ladies womb?

    Maybe a Prenatal Doctor, or a Pediatrician, could Scientifically create an artificial womb, that could take the place of the ladies womb, who chooses to abort the unborn baby, instead of having the baby, and then giving that newborn baby, a chance at having their own voice, and their own Rights, via their adoptive parent, or parents? 

    Look at that, a "Triple Win" for the non aborted baby? 


  • DeeDee 1101 Pts
  • DeeDee 1101 Pts
    @TKDB

    But you claim to be a “Christian” yet your god totally agrees with abortion so are you going to stop being a Christian?





    Happy_KillbotsmoothiePlaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 1101 Pts
    @RickeyD

    **** No you don't, not by law. Legally, you can't kill your body, you can't inject-consume substances that are illegal into your body; you can't use your body to commit violations of the criminal code; you can't use your body to harm others; you are not free to do just anything with your body

    Yet she can have an abortion  legally you raging hypocrite, you don’t like the law well f—k yourself sideways ......Like the bigoted religion nut job you cite the law when it suits and slate it when it doesn’t 

    B.T.W . I see you still have me defence to offer for biblical slavery why’s that?
  • TKDBTKDB 355 Pts
    edited November 27
    @Dee

    Should I be like you, or should I be like me?

    I'm pro Religious Freedom, I'm pro Atheist, I'm pro Adoption, I'm pro Family, and I'm pro Community.

    But you seem to be pro You? 
  • DeeDee 1101 Pts


    ***** But you seem to be pro You? 

    That must have come as a complete shock to you .......So another swerve from you , I thought you were anti abortion so tell me why do you support it when gods doing it?

    You can get @RickyD to assist you but I wouldn’t count on it as you and him between you’s cannot explain why you worship a god that’s pro slavery along with pro abortion......give it a go...no? I thought not ......
  • TKDBTKDB 355 Pts
    @Dee

    You're the inventor of the Atheist Swerve.

    ***** But you seem to be pro You? 

    "That must have come as a complete shock to you .......So another swerve from you , I thought you were anti abortion so tell me why do you support it when gods doing it?

    You can get @RickyD to assist you but I wouldn’t count on it as you and him between you’s cannot explain why you worship a god that’s pro slavery along with pro abortion......give it a go...no? I thought not."

    Please, keep on Atheist Swerving Dee, you wear its style, admirably. 

    @Dee

    I'm pro Religious Freedom, I'm pro Atheist, I'm pro Adoption, I'm pro Family, and I'm pro Community and I'm proud of it.
  • TKDBTKDB 355 Pts
    Some women are going to seek abortions.

    While some women are going to go through with having a baby, and then giving that baby up for adoption.

    The life and death balancing, between Adoption and abortion.

    The murkiness over the politics of sex, birth control, and abortion? 

    It's amazing, how human beings manage their lifestyles through that murky lens?

    The millions of aborted generations of humanity gone because of the practice of abortion.

    And in some countries, a female can seek anywhere from 4-14 abortions?

    An unconsensual baby, sure must weigh heavily on the minds of some females? 

    Just as an unconsensual baby, must weigh heavily on the minds of those unconsensual males, who didn't, or don't want to be dad.

    But hey, there's always the option of abortion, to lift that unconsensual weight off of the minds, of those consensual minded males, and females though right?

    Abortion, is right to them.

    While unborn lives are lost in the Wake of the pro Abortion conversation.

    That's one heck of a Wake isn't it? 




  • @Happy_Killbot

    Where i would disagree with you is that not being able to have as much sex as you want is limiting freedom just because currently there may be negative consequences.  Freedom allows you to do what you wish but doesnt come without consequences.

    This is why the founders and many others have said freedom is hard.

    Currently you are allowed to have as much sex as they want but they risk becoming pregnant or even getting an STI.

      Your allowed to eat as much as you want...your freedom is not limited just because overeating may cause early death or health issues.

    People know the consequences of having sex and used their freedom to make a decision.  Because they lack responsibility they want freedom without consequences, which usually isnt possible.
  • @MichaelElpers I think you understand the parts of my argument but you just not connecting the dots.

    What I am saying is that the consequences of having as much sex as you want or eating as much food as you want should be removed through technological development.

    Is this unreasonable?

    Consider the invention of fire thousands of years ago. This allowed food to be sterilized meaning parasites would be less likely to enter human hosts.

    Farming allowed the production of massive amounts of food, allowing for large stable populations.

    Antibiotics and other modern medicines allowed the treatment of many diseases.

    In all situations, technological progress has proceeded social change.

    Right now the risks of having lots of sex are unwanted pregnancy and STI's. There is no reason in known physics that prevents these things from being combated effectively with new technology, just as every problem mankind has ever faced has been combated with new technology.
    PlaffelvohfenDeesmoothie
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot

    Sure , but from your table it seemed as though you were saying not being able to have sex without consequences limits freedom and i believe that is wrong.

    We dont have the technology you are speaking of, so we have to make laws based on the now, not the utopia we may have in the future.

    Plus even if there were ways you could 100% prevent pregnancy, people would still want a fallback.  Not all people would be responsible in using it, and theyd still claim my body my choice.

  • @Happy_Killbot

    Sure , but from your table it seemed as though you were saying not being able to have sex without consequences limits freedom and i believe that is wrong.

    We dont have the technology you are speaking of, so we have to make laws based on the now, not the utopia we may have in the future.

    Plus even if there were ways you could 100% prevent pregnancy, people would still want a fallback.  Not all people would be responsible in using it, and theyd still claim my body my choice.

  • @MichaelElpers To a certain extent I agree with you, but the devil is in the details.

    It is true that people are not always responsible and do not always act in their own self interest. This is evident in the chaos and general unpredictability in human behavior and human systems such as the stock market. People sometimes even go out of their way to hurt themselves.

    To combat this, we need to create a system that in part works with human nature so that people on the whole tend not to do stupid things and society maintains itself and it's citizens.

    By focusing on the here and now, we may not give adequate attention to the future. The core of my argument is that what we choose to do after the fact is just damage control. It's already to late, the mistakes were already made, responsibility was already ignored, therefore it is of less consequence how we handle a post-ideal situation as opposed to how we prevent catastrophe.

    Lets consider 4 extreme scenarios:

    1) Every case of pregnancy out of wedlock was handled as a felony, all mothers immediately arrested their babies forced to be carried to birth and then raised by the state in an adoption facility.
     
    2) All pregnancies out of wedlock are aborted by the mother's choice, which is influenced through propaganda, normalization through media, and fear campaigns about the difficulty in raising a child as a single mother.

    3) If someone gets pregnant out of wedlock, they must submit an appeal to a court who will then flip a coin, if it is heads the mother must carry the baby, otherwise they will have the option of an abortion if they don't want to keep the baby.

    All ridiculous, but at some point in history all are essentially true!

    So the question is: Can there be a right answer?

    I would argue that there is no right answer as far as abortion is concerned, The only "right" thing is that it never occurs, and the most effective way to do that is to make it a statistical non-issue, the same way many health concerns were eliminated through medical advances, but still people get food poisoning by eating out of trashcans.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot

    I agree the only right thing is that abortion never occurs.  So currently it should be banned until technology that you are talking about is invented.  Even then it should be banned because like i said some people will still want access.  But for most it would be a non issue.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; As I told you and pointed out in the law...you do NOT possess the right to do anything you desire with your body and you certainly do not have the right to murder your child in your womb regardless of what SCOTUS might say.




    Like I said, this is my body, and I have the moral right to choose what to do with my body. Only a rapist would deny this.
  • @Happy_Killbot

    I agree the only right thing is that abortion never occurs.  So currently it should be banned until technology that you are talking about is invented.  Even then it should be banned because like i said some people will still want access.  But for most it would be a non issue.
    Rape culture! Women have the right to choose what to do with our bodies.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed No, women do not have the right to choose what they do with their bodies,

    It's not politics it's biology.

    Like it or hate it, if you have sex there is a chance you will get pregnant, apart from abstinence, no one really has conscious control over what their reproductive organs do, it's all automatic and acts without thought or higher reason. 

    It is troubling to think, but it is true. We are by nature, not masters of our own bodies. Only by denying nature access to our lives can we free ourselves from the shackles of biology.

    This does not automatically mean that abortion should be outlawed or made completely legal. It just means that worrying about it doesn't matter one way or the other, if we decided to make the decisions by coin flip or one extreme we would be doing things justly.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed No, women do not have the right to choose what they do with their bodies,

    It's not politics it's biology.

    Like it or hate it, if you have sex there is a chance you will get pregnant, apart from abstinence, no one really has conscious control over what their reproductive organs do, it's all automatic and acts without thought or higher reason. 

    It is troubling to think, but it is true. We are by nature, not masters of our own bodies. Only by denying nature access to our lives can we free ourselves from the shackles of biology.

    This does not automatically mean that abortion should be outlawed or made completely legal. It just means that worrying about it doesn't matter one way or the other, if we decided to make the decisions by coin flip or one extreme we would be doing things justly.
    Yes women do have the right to choose what to do with their bodies. Mind your own business. Only a rapist would treat a woman's body like community property.
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 113 Pts
    edited November 27
    @YeshuaRedeemed. Rape culture... Name the faction of people that think rape is ok.

    @Happy_Killbot.  You should stop now her intellectual prowess on this topic goes as far as my body my choice.  Men shouldnt get an opinion.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed. Rape culture... Name the faction of people that think rape is ok.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed. Rape culture... Name the faction of people that think rape is ok.
    I don't have to.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed ; Rape culture? Insane much? No, you belong to a murder culture that murders babies...this is demonic and your projection and obfuscation is not a defense. You are morally ill.


  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; Rape culture? Insane much? No, you belong to a murder culture that murders babies...this is demonic and your projection and obfuscation is not a defense. You are morally ill.


    Go to Hell. If I belong to a murder culture, you belong to a rape culture. Abortion is not murder, and you are done stalking me. I will report you, if you post on my content again. You will never have my forgiveness.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 212 Pts
    edited November 27
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; How is one a member of a rape culture for standing for the rights of the child to live and thrive as opposed to suffering mutilation via abortion?  Explain that, be specific...explain this "rape culture" you speak of. If you're going to argue a topic, if you're going to challenge my comments, don't be a coward snowflake and threaten to report me for responding with Truth. You're not well. Seek help!!!




  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; How is one a member of a rape culture for standing for the rights of the child to live and thrive as opposed to suffering mutilation via abortion?  Explain that, be specific...explain this "rape culture" you speak of. If you're going to argue a topic, if you're going to challenge my comments, don't be a coward snowflake and threaten to report me for responding with Truth. You're not well. Seek help!!!




    Leave me alone.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 212 Pts
    edited November 27
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; Stop challenging me, I will defend the right of the preborn to live...so stop responding to me...I have no reason to respond to you if you stop challenging me...your positioning is nauseating. I have prayed for you...may God have mercy on your soul?








  • RickeyD said:
    @YeshuaRedeemed ; Stop challenging me, I will defend the right of the preborn to live...so stop responding to me...I have no reason to respond to you if you stop challenging me...you're positioning is nauseating. I have prayed for you...may God have mercy on your soul?






    Leave me alone.
  • @YeshuaRedeemed. Did you just claim rape culture and when i asked you the people that support rape you said:

    I dont have to. 

    Lol. Why should anyone care what your saying then?  


  • @YeshuaRedeemed. Did you just claim rape culture and when i asked you the people that support rape you said:

    I dont have to. 

    Lol. Why should anyone care what your saying then?  


    I don't owe anything to antichoice people.
  • @MichaelElpers It's so sad because what I am arguing for would be a win-win. Everyone would get to do what they want with their bodies and no one would have to be aborted.

    Every time I bring up this argument, I always get flak from both sides. For whatever reason, people are so set in their position that they can not see that the options are much more than binary.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 1101 Pts
    @RickeyD

    13 million between them ,


    your god killed 25 million ( low estimate) making even Hitler seem like a saint in comparison suck it up buddy ......
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