Is faith ever more useful than knowledge?

ZeusAres42

It's a heuristic. Faith in oneself to win a competition may be very useful. Faith in a God that is supposedly telling you to fly planes into buildings is really not useful on the other hand.

Happy_Killbot

@ZeusAres42 Is it the faith that one will win that leads to victory, or is it all the hard work that goes into winning the competition that bears the fruit?

Many competitors don't have an all positive mindset, they have this idea that they have to do better and will push themselves to get there. For them, there is little point in believing they are better unless they can prove it. There is little value in hubris, so shouldn't making an informed analysis be more valuable than simple self-motivation?

smoothie

Having faith in something can make you feel happier/more connected to something; like the faith that people come alive out of a natural disaster or somebody survives cancer, it does have its use. Faith fills the void where knowledge is not available and people want answers. It is an ancient tactic to explain things where we could not collect knowledge. Knowledge is more important in general because its important to know whats going on around you and how the world actually works. Knowledge and facts actually explain your position as plausible to other people, it is the endgame to faith. You need strong arguments and facts to get a point across, hard to do that with a bible.

Which is more plausible? "I hope I don't get ran over by a car" or "I know I won't get run over by a car because I am not crossing the street today". You can hope/faith all you want but it is simply a faith that something is true and sometimes does not match reality.

Happy_Killbot

@smoothie I would be slow to equate hope and faith, because even though faith sometimes contains hope, such as the hopes of many religious persons that there will be an afterlife/reincarnation/resurrection, it doesn't always have to be so.

For example many people believe that breaking a mirror means bad luck. No sign of hope there.

RickeyD

@Happy_Killbot ; Faith in our Creator is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge...it is "the fool" who denies what they intuitively know to be truth, Jesus is Lord, Creator, God and without the indwelling Holy Spirit, you're just another impotent atheist in the World that will die in sin and die in Hell in futility.

MayCaesar

I think that faith is a horrible thing that should never be a part of one's intellectual framework. Having faith in something means you have given up your intellectual search, and you are likely to get burned eventually as the reality around you diverges from what your faith suggests. Those people who pray to god, believing that it will save them from health issues, only to discover at the age of 30 that they have lung cancer - this can completely destroy one's world, and unnecessary suicides as a result are fairly common.

That said, one should be very careful about using the word "knowledge". The more I work in science, the more I realise how rarely we can actually claim to "know" something. Everything we believe we know rests on thousands presuppositions, and at the bottom of this pile are the most fundamental axioms of our thinking which we simply accept to be true - but can never, strictly speaking, "know" to be true. As such, do we really "know" anything at all?
What is "knowledge" anyway? There are many types of knowledge: statistical knowledge, philosophical knowledge, logical knowledge, experimental knowledge... And all of these have their own limitations and caveats.

I rarely use the term "knowledge" nowadays. Rather, I prefer the term "information". By applying logic to existing pieces of information, we can generate new pieces of information. The information is not always trustworthy, however, by subjecting various pieces of information to cross-matching and experimental testing, we can filter out the garbage information and get a bit closer to "knowledge" - however, we can never reach the state of "knowledge", as there is always some inconclusiveness in our information.

I will also note that there is a special type of information which, while not being based on facts, can actually be very helpful in one's life. I call it "intellectual belief". It is a psychological tool that allows one to generate and cultivate empowering beliefs that can transform their life, even if, strictly speaking, those beliefs do not constitute plausible information.
Suppose you have difficulty interacting with others; you always feel anxious and can never quite relax around other people. In this situation, you can choose to employ a set of beliefs, such as "I am beautiful", "I am smart", "I am interesting", "People love being around me". You can understand intellectually that these statements are, at best, subjective, and at worst, a wishful thinking - nonetheless, by cultivating them and making them an integral part of your world view, you can get to the point where they start becoming self-fulfilling prophecies, and you see them turning out to be true again and again in your life, due to how aligned your behavior becomes with them.

For some people religious faith can have the same function. However, with religious faith you ultimately rely on other people's narrative. It is much more empowering to build your own narrative, based on your personal needs, and cultivate it. Design your own "religion" and follow it, and your life can be transformed in unimaginable ways. Do not follow religious leaders; follow yourself and believe in your ability to build the life of your dreams through hard work, and it will happen.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD Please give a specific example of a time when faith in any creator lead to wisdom that could not have been gained some other way.

"it is "the fool" who denies what they intuitively know to be truth, Jesus is Lord, Creator, God"

You can not dogmatically assume that I know this intuitively. Not only is this false, but I would argue that exactly the opposite is true and that only children who have not yet reached intellectual maturity know this intuitively. You also have to answer why in isolated countries like North Korea and the Americas before European settlers arrived didn't know about Jesus. This assumption is completely unfounded!

Is there any evidence that hell exists that isn't in a book? If hell is real, we should be able to access it repeatably and predictably. If we can't, then why not just make up literally anything?

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar ;Obviously there will always be a limit to how much and what we can understand, but pragmatism is king of the information game. I suppose what you describe as intellectual belief is a fancy way of saying philosophy, or at the very least is very closely related.

I never really bought in to the whole positive thinking thing, as I have a lot of trouble understanding what it is like for people who suffer from extreme anxiety. I don't know why people think that they need to have some sort of gimmick or trick into knowing what should be done, but perhaps that just because I am the type of person I am. 

TKDB

Being anti Religious oriented is completely voluntary.

Just as being Religious oriented is completely voluntary.

No subject of Science humanly exists that can be used to disprove God, or Jesus.

And if there is, I would enthralled to see the name of the Non Religious Science book, and the Author of that same book, that can disprove God, or Jesus? 

Happy_Killbot

@TKDB Who said anything about religion?

So far, it has only been brought up by others in the comment.

That's not the intention here, but if you think that faith in the context of religion is more useful than actual knowledge, please at least try to make an argument in favor of it, otherwise we are just wasting time.

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

Religion and faith I believe globally, are nearly one in the same.

Faith is just as important as knowledge is.

I'm equally open to both.

But being that "knowledge, or some unknown subject of Science" in general has been used to demean faith or Religion.

I'll take Faith, because some of the various types of unknown Science, or knowledge, gets cold after a while. 

Happy_Killbot

@TKDB So If I told you that there was a magic herbal supplement that could cure any and all ailments, and it only cost a few dollars anyways, but science says it is basically just tea, would you buy it?

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

What does your question, have to do with your own forum?

(Is faith ever more useful than knowledge?)

"So If I told you that there was a magic herbal supplement that could cure any and all ailments, and it only cost a few dollars anyways, but science says it is basically just tea, would you buy it?"

Happy_Killbot

@TKDB It's an example of faith vs. knowledge.

Someone has faith that magic herbal supplements can cure ailments.

Someone has knowledge that it is basically just tea.

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

I have Zero faith in your individual usages of knowledge.

So enjoy your Tea.

Happy_Killbot

@TKDB Avoidance tactics... nice...

P.S. You don't actually buy into all that "new age medicine" stuff right? Some of that stuff can actually hurt you.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

I would not say it is a gimmick; it is a psychological tool that has been used for millennia, after all. Dictators have used it to convert masses into an ideology, salesmen have used it to influence people's feelings towards their products, and psychologists have used it to get people out of emotional rabbit holes.

Positive thinking has a mixed reputation, because a lot of so-called gurus make it sound like a magic pill. But really, it requires a lot of effort to cultivate; it is not a "get happy quick" scheme. You are not going to get far by just repeating "I am happy" 10 times a day for a month. It requires quite a bit more work than that.

That said, the benefits are immense, and your entire life can be transformed if you dedicate enough effort to cultivate good mental and emotional habits. From my personal experience, I can say that literally the world around you becomes brighter once you have internalised some of the positive habits. When you wake up every morning with a smile on your face for no reason, you know that something in your life has changed.
But it is not something that comes easily. Our thinking habits are ingrained deeply in our subconscious mind, and just deciding, "Okay, from now on I will be a positive thinker", is not going to do anything. You have to go through a lot of resistance to get to the point where positive thinking habits become automatic.

To me, positive thinking was a life saver. I grew up in a society I detested, and I had a choice: either become bitter and angry, or change my perspective on things. I chose the latter, but changing perspective required changing a lot of thinking habits that had long become automatic. It is a work in progress, and will always be a work in progress - but I am a very different person now, 8 years after I started this psychological endeavor. I honestly do not remember when was the last time I was depressed, for example. My subconscious mind now works for me and constantly pumps me up, so even when something truly awful happens in my life, I can take it in and move on.
It might not work for everyone, however. We are all unique and complex beings, and it is hard to find psychological solutions that work for everyone.

MayCaesar

TKDB said:

And if there is, I would enthralled to see the name of the Non Religious Science book, and the Author of that same book, that can disprove God, or Jesus? 

Can you point at a book that disproves the Flying Saucepan Monster, unicorns, goblins or Jedi?

This is a very lazy argument, elegantly shown to be fallacious by Russell with his Teapot mental experiment:

I ought to call myself an agnostic; but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist. I do not think the existence of the Christian God any more probable than the existence of the Gods of Olympus or Valhalla. To take another illustration: nobody can prove that there is not between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit, but nobody thinks this sufficiently likely to be taken into account in practice. I think the Christian God just as unlikely.

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

The biggest (Avoidance tactic) device in the world is known, as this thing called the "Internet."

"Avoidance tactics... nice...

P.S. You don't actually buy into all that "new age medicine" stuff right? Some of that stuff can actually hurt you."

Along with the use of (anonymous names) not unlike the billions that are Globally on the Internet as you express yourself through your individual electronic device?

I have more faith in faith, because knowledge is made vulnerable by humanities own misuses of Knowledge, and Science, in general. 

TKDB

@MayCaesar

I'm not any Atheist, who apparently needs to unnecessarily wrestle with any Religion on the internet, via any book?

"Can you point at a book that disproves the Flying Saucepan Monster, unicorns, goblins or Jedi?"

MayCaesar

@TKDB

I have not said a word about religion. What am I wrestling with? I was pointing out a fallacy in your argument in the abstract sense, with no regard to its actual content.

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar I'm not saying I don't think social engineering/propaganda/psyops/information warfare/manipulation are not real, just that the placebo effect doesn't really work when you are naturally skeptical of everything.

I prefer hard solutions to problems, and I don't really spend much time sulking in having a problem, I just skip straight to the issue and try to find solutions, not from a perspective of determination but just from a raw "I want X I need to do A,B,C" and frankly, I kind of enjoy it when things go wrong.

*Insert backstory to explain screen name here*

Dee

Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don’t have a good reason.

 Science and related fields are the complete opposite to this. A scientist may believe he’s onto something but he has a reason for believing such and can back it up by producing his findings which leaves his work open to rigorous scrutiny ,  a whole process takes place before his findings are accepted and even then any such findings are open further scrutiny and revision.

Normally the term faith is used by believers and is based on supernatural conviction and nothing else , when challenged they attempt to turn it back on the atheist by claiming “ well you have faith also “ , this is disingenuous , as an atheist I have a trust in many things as in I expect my car to start when I turn the key this is based on an expectation based on previous experience and the same can be said on many life situations

Fate as defined above is why people believe in all sorts of B S and why is worldwide a billion dollar industry as it relies on the gullibility of humans to guarantee the cash keeps coming in 

Dee

@RickeyD

***** Faith in our Creator is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge


It’s failed on both accounts regarding you 

Dee

@TKDB


Do you ever even attempt to answer what’s asked instead of going of on yet another inane rant?

Dee

@TKDB


*****Religion and faith I believe globally, are nearly one in the same.

Yes,  believing in something without having good reason to  

*****Faith is just as important as knowledge is.

Really? So faith in believing in the Loch Ness monster is as important as knowledge.....This is why you’re sadly in need of knowledge 

*****I'm equally open to both.

You’re not as you every post demonstrates 

******But being that "knowledge, or some unknown subject of Science" in general has been used to demean faith or Religion.

If it’s “unknown “ how is it used to “demean” faith or religion?

*****I'll take Faith, because some of the various types of unknown Science, or knowledge, gets cold after a while. 

Like what? What’s unknown science or knowledge?


Bet you will run and hide as usual 

TKDB

@Dee

Who, other than YOU, said anything about faith, and believing in the Loch Ness monster? 

"So faith in believing in the Loch Ness monster is as important as knowledge.....This is why you’re sadly in need of knowledge."


See you've enriched me from your individual perception via your Atheist perspective.

Do you see me Running?

What from your Atheist perception, should I be fearful enough to Run and Hide from Dee?

Show me some more of your Atheist fears?




*****I'm equally open to both.

"You’re not as you every post demonstrates"

******But being that "knowledge, or some unknown subject of Science" in general has been used to demean faith or Religion.

"If it’s “unknown “ how is it used to “demean” faith or religion?"

*****I'll take Faith, because some of the various types of unknown Science, or knowledge, gets cold after a while. 

"Like what? What’s unknown science or knowledge?"


"Bet you will run and hide as usual."

Dee

@TKDB


*****Who, other than YOU, said anything about faith, and believing in the Loch Ness monster? 

Ehh you did you dumb f—‘  you said faith is as important as knowledge is 

*****See you've enriched me from your individual perception via your Atheist perspective.

It’s not an “atheist perspective “ you fool its common sense , do you even know what the term means?

****Do you see me Running?

I do yes , you avoided answering every one of my questions as usual 

*****What from your Atheist perception, should I be fearful enough to Run and Hide from Dee?

Well you’re terrified of answering a couple of simple questions so maybe that’s something you need to work on 

****Show me some more of your Atheist fears?

Why where have I shown you any?

So as usual run again and refuse to answer what’s asked it’s all you can do really isn’t it?

ZeusAres42

Happy_Killbot said:

@ZeusAres42 Is it the faith that one will win that leads to victory, or is it all the hard work that goes into winning the competition that bears the fruit?

Many competitors don't have an all positive mindset, they have this idea that they have to do better and will push themselves to get there. For them, there is little point in believing they are better unless they can prove it. There is little value in hubris, so shouldn't making an informed analysis be more valuable than simple self-motivation?

I think if faith in oneself is also confidence in oneself then it is just as useful as knowledge to win. Of course, knowledge and practice has to be the predecessor though. Faith alone will be of no use to win a competition without also have a sufficient amoutn of knowledge.

Plaffelvohfen

Faith (capital F) is completely useless, and as @MayCaesar mentioned, one of the most horrible things humans came up with...

It's insidious and it poisons the foundations of someone's reasoning abilities. Since "faith" requires no thought, evidence, examination, reasoning, logic, nor anything else -- "faith" requires nothing -- it can't give anything back. "Faith" can't provide any answers to any questions, solve any problems, resolve any conflicts. Different people can all have equally valid "faith" in contradictory things -- making "faith" worthless.

All sorts of bad, illogical, irrational decisions can result from having worthless "Faith".
 

MayCaesar

Happy_Killbot said:

@MayCaesar I'm not saying I don't think social engineering/propaganda/psyops/information warfare/manipulation are not real, just that the placebo effect doesn't really work when you are naturally skeptical of everything.

I prefer hard solutions to problems, and I don't really spend much time sulking in having a problem, I just skip straight to the issue and try to find solutions, not from a perspective of determination but just from a raw "I want X I need to do A,B,C" and frankly, I kind of enjoy it when things go wrong.

*Insert backstory to explain screen name here*

It is more profound than the placebo effect though. When I cultivated positive thinking, I did not try to trick myself into something; I consciously conditioned my subconscious mind to respond to the external stimuli in a way that benefits me. This is a very powerful realisation: that you can use logic to incorporate illogical, but beneficial, patterns into your life. It is not something I can explain in brief terms, and entire books could be written on the subject. It does not really require suppressing your scepticism, but it does require certain, let us say, relativity of thinking, which can be disturbing to many - certainly was to me when I first thought about this concept.

It is absolutely crucial to have a logical approach to problems. However, our emotional state can affect the direction in which our logical thought goes. When you feel down, everything you consider seems to be disfunctional, because you are focusing on what can go wrong, rather than what can go right. When you feel up, the opposite occurs. Logic is important, but the place it comes from is important as well.
I have certainly noticed over time how new solutions to problems started arising in my mind, simply because the positivity of my thinking altered my risk assessment patters and made me consider solutions that before I would assume to be very unlikely to work.

Up until my early 20-s I used to be, let us call it, a "logical absolutist". I believed that feelings and emotions were irrelevant and only pragmatic logical approach was worth seriously considering. Nowadays I believe that we are more than that; we can use our feelings and emotions to channel our logical thinking in the most productive way, and similarly we can use logic to categorise our feelings and emotions and make them work for us. It is an upward spiral, and it can seriously transform one's life. Logic can be very complicated and confusing at times, and sometimes we just need to make a decision and go with it, however risky it looks - and this is where the emotional component comes in.

There are things in our psyche that cannot be tackled by purely logical approach. Often logic tells us the right thing to do, but our psychology does not allow us to do so. The most basic example is a poor diet: we all know that, to be healthy, we need to eat healthy, yet very few actually stick to it. You can, through a tremendous amount of effort, force yourself to eat healthy by pure logic, but it is much easier to do some psychological work instead and make eating healthy natural and preferable.
Another example is public speaking, the nemesis of so many people. Very few can speak in front of the audience of 1000 people and feel comfortable. Logically we know, "Well, this is just a speech in front of 1000 people. I will not be lynched for that." But logic alone does not cut it. Again, prior psychological work can make public speaking virtually effortless and tremendously enjoyable. To me, public speaking is not an issue at all at this point, even though, say, 8 years ago I could not speak in front of the audience of more than 10 people without stumbling on my words and sweating heavily.

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar I think this is getting a bit far off topic now, It would probably be appropriate to start a new thread about this.

I don't think this is what you are talking about, but for the sake of returning to topic: Faith is almost always pushed from those who seek to take advantage of others, and it is usually coupled with emotional motivation. The people that learn to use people are always the ones who rise to the top, it has nothing to do with intelligence, strength, or skill. It is always about who is the best at dealing with people and there emotions.

People who are beholden to their emotions are the most easily controlled, and when this is coupled with gullibility, community, tradition, or pressure most fall victim to its jaws.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

Well, I do not disagree with anything you said. My point was exactly that it is important for one to be in charge of their psychology, not only to resist outside influences, but also - and more importantly - to resist and defeat their own inner demons.

However, psychology is a tricky thing. We really were never designed to be run by pure logic, and for the majority of our history instincts were our saving grace. That bias towards instincts is still there, and no matter how logical you are, instincts run you, often in ways that undermine your ability to achieve your life goals and live a happy life. You can use logic, however, to work on your psychology in seemingly illogical ways, and this is what I was really promoting here. 

Is the idea that people are fundamentally good right? No; in fact, it does not make much sense to say such a thing from the purely logical perspective. Nonetheless, intelligently employing this belief improved the quality of my life tremendously. As long as you are in charge of your beliefs and can design and cultivate them in a way that benefits you, you can afford to be a little illogical every now and then. You just have to make sure that you are actually in charge, which, in case of followers of organised religions, more often than not is not the case. However much someone following the Bible believes that they follow some higher principle, ultimately they follow other humans' narrative, and however good this narrative is, it still is not their narrative, and it is a dangerous road to walk.

piloteer

All humans who are capable of conscious beliefs have some sort of faith association with their beliefs. Even if they are atheists. "Knowledge" is mostly based on probability, not unvarnished fact!!!

TKDB

@AIofRI

@Happy_Killbot

@Dee

@piloteer

@Plaffelvohfen

@MayCaesar


Knowledge is useless when it's used in a bias manner, to impossibly gauge God with it, via any Man Made Science.

Faith is useless to some, if they treat knowledge like a made up subject of Science in a fictional Science book.

AlofRI

@Happy_Killbot : "I haven't really bought into the positive thinking thing."

I agree. That can be as bad as good. The power of positive thinking is what allowed the terrorists to fly the planes into the Towers, killing themselves and hundreds of others, and obtaining a couple of months worth of virgins …. for eternity . Also a belief in a "god"! Some say a false god, some say the only god, I say a dangerous (and imagined) god, as they all are. 

We must wake up and know that WE are responsible for our actions. NO "god" has anything to do with them.

piloteer

@TKDB

Knowledge can be totally useful when it is used in a biased manner. Your argument is not empirically sound because it's not totally true all the time. Please try to think before you make statements. Plus I am not arguing that knowledge is more reliable than faith, so I don't understand why you're mentioning me in your lame little post, I'm arguing that we all have faith. Leave me out of your $hit posts. I'm trying to actually make a valid argument.   

Dee

@TKDB

***** Knowledge is useless when it's used in a bias manner, to impossibly gauge God with it, via any Man Made Science.

What does that word salad even mean?

****Faith is useless to some, if they treat knowledge like a made up subject of Science in a fictional Science book.

is a “fictional science book”? 

tiffany318

@TKDB Faith- the capacity to believe in something without evidence it exists.
Religion- a system of ideas, individuals, and events one or more people believe in usually having specific forms of worship and rituals.

tiffany318

Faith seems to be more useful to human beings than knowledge. Knowledge or the act of seeking knowledge is something very specific and although useful can also be a hindrance depending on the outcome one is looking for. People in positions of power seem to find faith very useful and knowledge their enemy. People of faith can accomplish things considered by most as near impossible yet its achieved bc they have/had faith. People who have faith in an institution for example will remain in an area, follow specific rules and laws, work endless hours for min wage all based on the faith that the institution is going to work and they'll be rewarded for having done so. Faith can also keep one shackled and detained without the use of one bar or any locks. Knowledge is nonetheless a powerful thing to the individual who seeks it but also applies it. Without a man or woman to determine what area of knowledge should be used and for what knowledge can reside in articles, drawings, stories etc for 1000s of yrs useful to no one. Its one thing to know you can walk away fr a prison cell whenever you want but fears, doubts, and desires have to be overcome for a man to take those steps and walk out but faith if you have faith you can leave a prison cell a man can leave whenever he sees fit without moving a muscle.