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what can ?
in Religion

By maxxmaxx 241 Pts
what, if any, kind of "magic" powers does satan have?
RS_master



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  • RickeyDRickeyD 553 Pts
    edited January 4
    @maxx ; Satan is a created cherub angel, a spirit, a fallen angel, who does not possess the power to work miracles but only mimics the God who created him. Satan is a very intelligent and capable military strategist and the king of deception and the father of lies and murder (John 8:44). Satan is very proficient at dividing and conquering through deception and he makes use of man's weaknesses and proclivities. The primary reason Jesus Christ entered Time was to defeat the works of the Devil (1 John 3:8).

    “You were the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
    Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
    Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
    The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
    Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

    14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
    I established you;
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
    15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
    Till iniquity was found in you.  Ezekiel 28:13-15  (NKJV)




    RS_master
  • @RickeyD Satan (if he exists) sure is capable of a lot, like possibly inventing Jesus.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3250 Pts
    Remember a very old game, Diablo 2? When I got to fighting Diablo there for the first time, it cast that continuous red flame on my poor Barbarian, and he died almost instantly. I have been terrified of that flame ever since; it appeared in my nightmares more than once. This is what happens when a 12 year old kid gets disintegrated by an overpowered boss: PTSD for the rest of his/her life.

    If Satan has some magical ability, it has to be that flame.
    Shamgurd
  • RickeyDRickeyD 553 Pts
    edited January 4
    @Happy_Killbot ; If you reject Jesus Christ as Lord for the mediation of your sins, you will suffer a similar fate as your spiritual father, Satan, in Hell.


    RS_master
  • maxxmaxx 241 Pts
    so if he no longer has any powers aside from deceit; then his minions do not either; so how can they be capable of fighting a war with gods angels?  as well, that verse you copied does not show where he is capable of mimicking god.@RickeyD
  • @maxx

    Do you ever get tired of constantly asserting your obvious prejudice against what others choose to believe?  

    While every religion seems to have claims in their doctrines that can not be proven or for that matter in some cases be disproven does not give you the right to constantly ridicule them.

    Most religion seem to have a similar doctrine of an overall goodness required of it's members.

    Yes.  I think every religion seems to have it's radical elements but that isn't who you tend to attack. It seems you focus primarily on religion in general.

    I don't understand people's problem with someones religious beliefs if it is not directly affecting them. 

    Faith brings alot of people peace, especially in times of strife.  So why not leave them alone.  Let them have their peace and believe whatever they want.  As long as it is not harming others I just don't see what good comes from ridiculing those beliefs.


  • maxxmaxx 241 Pts
    aside from your false belief of me being non- tolerant to your religious beliefs and as you probably being non tolerant to other religions, I am simply asking a question.  according to the bible. satan was a fallen angel; as well what powers do angels have? are they not just messengers of god? people wrongly assume that satan has control of flame; no where in the bible does it say this. in fact, satan suffers in the bottomless pit as well.  if one can not stand up and show others how you interpret your own bible then it is no wonder so many fail to understand your religion; it is a on-going fact tht every Christian will interpret the bible on how they say it relates to them and will disagree with other christains upon it. the question and my post is simple and has no ridicule or derision written into it. I merely asked does satan have any powers?@all4actt
  • RickeyDRickeyD 553 Pts
    edited January 4
    @maxx It does not require "magic" powers to fight a war. The ONLY reason you exist in Time and the ONLY reason this Universe was created and man was created and Hell was created is as the resultant of the coup de taut that manifest in the Kingdom of God before the creation of Time (2 Timothy 1:10) and God's volition/decision which opted to remove Lucifer and the rebellious angles from the Kingdom and constrain them by Time-physics and deal with their iniquity-sin-rebellion apart from the Kingdom...this was done to remove sin from the Kingdom that is NOT permitted (Revelation 21:27) and it was done to eliminate further destruction in the Kingdom caused by sin and it was done to maintain volitional love with the angelic creation that did not rebel but is watching our Creator deal with sin, rebellion and they are watching their Creator, with justice and selfless love, deal with what was the most prized cherub angel in the Kingdom, Lucifer, until his rebellion.

    "the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."  1 John 3:8 (NASB)

    That cosmic struggle was removed from the Kingdom (Luke 10:18) and placed within the constraints of Time and the struggle between God and Lucifer began in the Garden of Eden and manifests before our eyes today (Genesis 3:15).

    The Holy Spirit explains the struggle between the Seed of the Woman (Jesus born of a virgin) and Lucifer in The Beginning...

    The Lord God said to the serpent,

    “Because you have done this,
    Cursed are you more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you will go,
    And dust you will eat
    All the days of your life;
    15 And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her seed;
    He shall [d]bruise you on the head,
    And you shall bruise him on the heel.”  Genesis 3:14-15 (NASB)

    Jesus was born of a virgin in order to bypass the corruption of Adam's seed which carries the curse of death via the sin-nature. The prophecy in Genesis 3:15 was fulfilled at the Crucifixion where Jesus was victorious over death and sin, both of which were instruments introduced via Lucifer's-Satan's deceit.

    The Flood-the Passover-the Biblical Wars-the Crucifixion-the murder of Jews throughout their history-exemplified by the Holocaust, the rise of Islam and Allah who is Satan manifest as the Arabic Moon god...the reestablishment of Israel, Iran's/Islam's hate for Israel...the antisemitism, these are manifestations of a cosmic struggle of unfathomable proportions that manifest around us in the Spiritual World and carry-over into the Realm of Time and we partake of glimpses and shadows of this war and we sense its reality within our spirit.

    The faithful angels in the Kingdom are watching the horror of sin and rebellion and death and deception all under girded by Satan and his angels and at the end of Messiah's Millennial Reign, the angels will agree with their God and my God that Lucifer-Satan does require punishment-confinement in Hell forever (Matthew 5:41). By this, God's judgment on Satan, sin, death, will be justified before the angels and God's volitional love and relationship with them will be under girded and strengthened by what God has done for mankind by selflessly suffering and dying for an obstinate, ungrateful, perverse, rebellious, human creation. At the end of this horrific struggle, God will not only be victorious but glorified and sin will be revealed for it is...suffering, deception and death. This knowledge relevant to the horror of sin, disobedience, will carry-over into Eternity and under gird the need for purity and holiness in the Kingdom which will provide guidance and structure for continued free will which is essential for purity in love and relationship to manifest in authenticity.   

    The reason for our existence in Time is to prepare for Eternity. God is seek the faithful who will love Him and serve Him in the Kingdom of God subsequent to death of the body constrained by Time. Personally, I believe that our Lord is filling the vacancy/void created by the absence of the rebellious angles that followed Lucifer in his coup...I know that our atmosphere abhors a vacuum...perhaps God is filling that vacuum in the Kingdom with the faithful in Time...my prayer is that I would be a servant in my God's inner court.





    RS_master
  • @maxx

    You want to know my Christian beliefs. 

    I was raised Episcopalian but have had issues with some of the decisions made by the church in the past.  I was also raised by a mother that believed we should have some knowledge of other religious beliefs so we were able to make our own choices of what to believe.

    I believe in God and I pray but I don't believe I need a church or priest to do so.  Although I don't have anything against someone who does believe otherwise. 

    I am also a fatalist. 

     I also believe that every person has a predestined purpose.  What that purpose is may never be known but they do have a pupose.

    I do believe there is evil.  There is no better descrption for what some people do.

    I believe as a Christian it is my responsibility to be kind and respectful of other, to live the best life I can while helping others along the way.




  • @all4actt There is a fine line between secularism and religious oppression.

    I am a staunch atheist, but even then I will support others being allowed to have their own personal beliefs.

    However, as soon as it crosses the line into forcing beliefs on someone, that is too far.

    Religion spreads in three ways, proselytizing, indoctrination of children, and threats of violence.

    While it is clear that the last one is never acceptable,(and doesn't really work anyways) the first two are in a bit of a grey zone. It is acceptable for someone to stand on a street corner or use the internet to try and spread their faith, as it is just freedom of speech, but sometimes that spread comes with other unsavory tactics, namely the use of psychological, and sometimes even physical manipulation.

    To explain this a little better, lets say you are standing on a street corner talking about god, and handing out booklets that contain scary pictures of hell and demons and the like, and explains that only people within your particular sect can go to heaven. If a child or someone with anxiety issues sees this, it could be very psychologically damaging, and this is one of the tactics used both to get people into a faith and keep people there. Whether or not this is ok is up for debate, being as it is morally ambiguous.

    The second (and primary) method by which religion spreads is by indoctrinating children. This is also morally ambiguous, some would argue that it is necessary to instill values to their kids, and others would argue that this is a form of child abuse. sometimes the beliefs tend to press people to do things not necessarily in their best interest, (like blow themselves up) or change someones mindset enough to make them do a particular task not against their interest, but in the interests of religion itself (like having lots of children)

    What is and isn't ok for religion to do is not the most clear, but for someone to speak against religion is acceptable so long as they don't do anything against their fellow man.


    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxxmaxx 241 Pts
    all of this is getting far from my post.  again. what if any powers ( according to the bible) does satan have?
  • SandSand 164 Pts
    I am not sure.
    Not an area I studied.

    I know Angels have the ability to materialize bodies.
    That is why if you see an Angel you would probably not know because he would look like a human.
    They learned that ability because they had a part in the creative works.
    We also know the Angels when they materialize bodies they have the ability to procreate or have children.
    We see that in the Noah event, the Angels (later became Demons) procreated and had Nephilim for children.
    We also see that the Demons were able to duplicate the first three plagues during Moses' time.
    Snakes, frogs, water to blood, this is because again the Angels had a part in the creative works.

    Now according to my teacher, after the flood situation, the Demons were placed in Tartarus, which prevented a lot of their powers, like materializing bodies.
    But because I did not study this, I am unable to explain the connections.
    During Jesus' time, Demons were able to possess people and animals.
    Jesus also had a conversation with Satan who showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world.
    Another issue
    The demons and the spirit medium of Endor, apparently they can make a ghost-like appearance that looks like anyone they choose.
    Now, in this case, the answer was an obvious answer, because Samuel said to Saul many times what would happen.
    So the demon did not foretell the future.

    But in Paul's case with the possessed woman, she would foretell the future.
    My teacher said that the demons do not have the ability to foretell the future, but because they are not visible they make predictions, that they cause to come true.

  • @maxx

    You said>>>aside from your false belief of me being non- tolerant to your religious beliefs and as you probably being non tolerant to other religions,

     I will concede that I may have made a incorrect assumption of your intolerance to peoples religious faiths. To explain it was based on a previous discussion I have had with you challenging one of your statements. You then resorted to belittling me for believing anything  in the Bible  when my only point was that the Bible is a historical documentation written by many people of there views of what was happening in their time.
    As  for your assumption of me being intolerent of others beliefs or lack of them is incorrect  I do not care what religion people prescribe to.  If I ever ask a question about someone's beliefs it's because I honestly want to know their view or their religions views on the subject.  I have not once ridiculed anyones religious beliefs on this site.  The only time I have a problem with someone else's religion is when it is a radical perversion of the core beliefs of their stated religion and it is used to cause harm to others. 

    As far as the question of Satan and what "magical" powers he may have.  Well that would depend on what religion subscripe to.  The thoughts vary.  There are those who believe that he is a fallen angel stuck down by God due to a rebellious act or an actual rebellion fighting to overthrow God's rule.  Some also believe that he rules over hell and demons.  There is the belief that he or his demons are able to posses the living causing all different sorts of problems.  Then there are those who believe he wasn't an angel but a jinn who was cast down by God for his rebellion and retains the power of being able to put evil thoughts into peoples heads and influence them to do evil things.  There are others who simply believe that Satan just  means evil which describes the acts that are done by people that would be a sin in their religion.  Yet others believe Satan is to be worshiped and is benevolent being of good.  While others worship him as a their choice over God and embrace all that is evil.  These people, amongst others, also believe he is capable of being able to do all kinds of supernatural acts.

    I guess I don't really understand what you actually you want to get from this debate.  Everything I stated is general knowledge or is able to be researched.

    I do want to pose the same question to you as you did to me.  What are your beliefs? 
  • maxxmaxx 241 Pts
    I do not believe I ever belittled any one for their  beliefs. I ay have simply pointed out what I thought were contridictions.  my beliefs? people tend to lean toward what they grew up with; I however was left to my own self teachings.  I simply do not have any true beliefs.  I do not know if this universe came from nothing and I do not know if there is a creator of any kind. however, there are too many religions all saying each other are wrong. in my opinion, if there is a creator then I would not only say that it has little to do with any of the religions that we have; but also it is very possible that the creator made the universe for his own purpose, not ours or any other life forms and any life forms in the universe, including us, may simply be a by-product of a creation that was designed for the creators purpose.  of course, I do not know, and I simply can not take the word of any books we have here on earth.@all4actt
  •  @all4actt ;

    On the contrary, sounds like a damn good reason to me, that is, to constantly ridicule religion. I have some sympathy for your statement that ridiculing people is wrong. But ridiculing religion can never be overdone. No force in history has done more to delude and lie to people more than religion. Its entire foundation rests on a belief for which there is absolutely no evidence, I mean none, as in zero! I don't even mean proof. I mean just one shred of credible testable evidence that any god, let alone their god exists.  That's an astonishing fact. Religion's main deception used to perpetuate this global delusion (particularly in the west) is faith. Problem: you have no evidence to back up your claims. Answer: urge people not to question. In fact, make it nearly a sin to question God or his existence. Is there any evidence? Let's make sure followers don't ask the question! But religion does not just use faith to protect its dirty little secret. Some religious factions demonize secular education, don't support public schools, demonize higher-education, demonize liberal democratic values that promote inclusiveness and open inquiry, present mythology as science, deny science, present the Bible as history and generally speaking attempt to keep the population dumbed-down. They will promote obedience and demand acceptance of doctrine. They will belittle the arts to stunt creativity and encourage suspicion of anything different. You don't think this impacts everyone? Do you think this is just a private matter that doesn't effect anyone but the believer (which is bad enough)?

    Here in America, religion has lead an assault on American values and principles particularly in its violations of the separation clause of the Constitution. Politicizing their religion has done great damage, here and around the world. It has hindered attempts to combat pollution and climate change. Their abstinence position and fight against birth control has spread disease and exacerbated overpopulation which has increased poverty, starvation, death and pushed resources to the limit. Their campaigns against government and social welfare have increased misery, their support here in my country for an elitist Republican Party has widened the income gap and stagnated upward mobility, divided people and opposed universal health care, all of which has increased suffering and increased the death rate. Their absurd insistence that a zygote is a human being has caused anxiety and hardship for thousands of women. Their wicked position on homosexuality has produced pain, fear, and death. And all of this because of some ancient superstitious nonsense and because moderate and liberal churches have remained relatively silent and allowed their extreme wing to become its mainstream voice. We have plenty of reason to continually attack the detriment caused by religion.

    I agree that religion has done a great deal of good and provided comfort. But the above plus its bloody history, the division and conflict and massive death it has facilitated, plus the enormous amount of fear, anxiety, and guilt caused by its evil doctrine of damnation has for me tipped the balance against it. Especially since we don't need it. We don't need it for morality, for societal order or for comfort. There are other less damaging means that don't. Evolution has provided us a sense of right and wrong. People are rational creatures. Create a society based on facts, humanist education and reason and you will have your moral, orderly, equal, loving, less fearful, less stressful, more peaceful society without the side effects. And there will be plenty of comfort for individuals to go around.      

  • maxxmaxx 241 Pts
    the question is not based upon a belief.  perhaps I should have been more specific and asked according to the Christian bible what powers does satan have. that way, anyone could have answered it without ridicule. you yourself could answer if if I worded it that way. one does not have to believe in something to answer a rhetorical question@kenpage
  • @Happy_Killbot so i know you were roping all of Christianity into your example but i would like to clear some things up
    the  hell fire God wraith is a type of preaching and learning method of it. Its normally used by baptist/southern baptist. im Methodist and we preach on the love and grace of God. when i think about my creator i think of what he did for me and what i owe him, not what he is going to do if i don't do this

    now the topic of children and people with anxiety, i don't see these as legit reason considering its every day life. Glance at the new, you will see far more horrifying stuff. it is something you must get used to

    also 90% of the time it is not a scare tactic, if you see a missile coming straight down at your city you are going to warn everyone around and in my belief that is what is going to happen so its not a scare tactic it is a warning. All tho i do not like the teaching style personally, i understand it.
  • @kenpage so alot of that you are pinning on religion, the wars and everything in the medieval days was more about land and they would put the glory in God, this is how it got confused. Same with today's yes they say its about religion but very rarely it actually is. Normally about oil and other thing and alot of the times land and safety. the ones you are heavily speaking on is the extremist which every group ever has it is not only religion    
  • @maxx now, on the real topic haha, from the knowledge i have gathered threw the years the devil has the power (like other demons) to poses people, also have the ability to change form. from what i have always heard the devil just like the anti-christ will be gorgeous people if you walk up to them you wouldn't know. along with flames and things like this im pretty certain that he does not. out side of taking forms and manipulation im not sure any other powers.

    hope i was some what of help 
  • @Shamgurd All Christians believe in Heaven and Hell as far as I know, maybe there are some minor sects I don't know about, but at least all the mainstream ones do. The whole "love of god" thing is complete BS. If your biological father said he would throw you into a furnace unless you worshiped him, would you really call that love? That seems more like the actions of a narcissistic king to me.

    Frankly, the news is psychologically damaging for some children too. Creating a false comparison doesn't free religion from the fact that a child who doesn't know better can't defend themselves. Consider Greta Thunberg, she is autistic and just learning about global warming practically made her insane. That is what I am talking about.

    Lets discuss this missile scenario, shall we? So if you were inside minding your own business when someone started pounding on your door and told you that a trans galactic hyper speed relativistic kill missile could strike the planet at any time and kill everyone, but we can't detect it yet because it is still too far away for the light to reach earth. This might be cause for concern. Now lets say that once at least once a  week someone told you about the missile, and this continued for 2,000 years, even though there was never any hard evidence that such a missile ever existed.

    It is more than possible that such a device could exist, and an angry alien race exterminating all life that it sees as a threat would certainly be able to build such a device. But that isn't the point. Are you really saving anyone anything by going around spreading this message? What if it also came with another message, that the aliens would be likely to spare us if they thought we were nice and decided we were no threat to them. How about now?

    Religion is like that. There may or may not be a kill missile the same way there may or may not be a hell, but introducing it is a form of behavior control via fear and reward. You have to recognize that there is no hard repeatable evidence for heaven or hell, so until we know otherwise why should we assume that it does?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxxmaxx 241 Pts
    aside from the first 2 answers about what I did not say; your third answer does little justice to my question.  I agrre according to the bible satan may be able to posses people; however deceiving others into believing in him is not a so called power. basically it seems he has just as much power as angels do which makes little sense to me for satan lost his place in heaven and was cast down to earth. why did he retain his powers?  @Shamgurd
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1359 Pts
    edited January 11
    He has the power to commit genocide, mass slaughter, burning at the stake executions, death for adultery, mass floods, to condone brutal slavery, infanticide and so forth. Oh, wait, sorry, that was all God!










  • How do you know that this God of the material world isn't Satan? Perhaps the Gnostics were right all along?









  • SandSand 164 Pts

    To my understanding, when Satan sinned against God he knew God would immediately destroy him.
    That was the reason he came up with the challenge to prolong the inevitable.
    Satan's goal was to garnish worship for himself. So Satan challenged God as a bad ruler.
    He proposed to allow Man to choose who to worship, Man rule himself, without interference from God.
    So Satan challenged Man's Integrity and God's Sovereignty.
    To solve these issues God gave Man time to allow different kinds of rulership and standards of living.


    That is why Jesus could not die for mankind as a baby.
    He had to address the two challenges.
    Way, Truth, and Life.

    The Truth addresses Sovereignty.
    To teach us the truth about God. (TRUTH)
    John 18:37 - "Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."

    The Way addresses Integrity.
    To maintain perfect integrity, providing a model for us to follow. (WAY)
    1 Peter 2:21 - "For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps:"

    The Life addresses Death.
    To sacrifice his life to set us free from sin and death. (LIFE)
    Matthew 20:28 - "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many."

    It is to my understanding that Satan's powers of materializing flesh was hindered.
    Other than that he has other abilities.
    The limits of the extent are not mentioned in the Scriptures.
    He is the Master of Deception mostly because he has existed for so long.
    maxx
  • maxxmaxx 241 Pts
    I dont but this is a rhetorical qiuestion@ZeusAres42
  • maxx said:
    I dont but this is a rhetorical qiuestion@ZeusAres42

    My response was to a comment made by someone else @maxx









  • @shamgurd ; I'm not sure that sounds very convincing. I would need to see scholarly support for the proposition that land and oil etc. are the main causes of these wars. Also, I don't think land and oil are always the fuel that sustains a war, what motivates soldiers to fight, and populations to support the effort. Protecting one's homeland as in repelling an invasion would motivate populations and soldiers. Possibly invading armies have been motivated by spoils or booty (oil), though the ordinary soldiers and citizens are rarely the direct beneficiaries of these spoils. But when facing death, how often has land or spoils motivated soldiers to hold their ground or advance?  Is that really enough to provide the zeal needed to charge?  The reasons could be many, but what soldier has thought, I'm terrified, but I'm going over this wall for land because the king or the politician wants that land or that treasure on the other side. I'm going over this wall in a hail of oncoming bullets so that general so and so or king so and so can get even richer and more powerful than they already are. What widow or mother opens her door to face the marines and says My husband is gone forever, but at least we got that patch of dirt he was defending, or he made our president or even our nation more wealthy. On the other hand, if a soldier in that situation thinks going over that wall is what an all-knowing all-seeing god wants him to do then he is much more likely to do it. If he fears eternal damnation or disfavor with an all-powerful deity or thinks he will be gaining favor with this deity, that is a much more powerful motivation. If the widow or mother believes that her husband or son's death was for god, and not a death wasted to acquire land of wealth, she and the citizenry are much more likely to continue supporting the war.

    At any rate, this is almost a moot point. Whether wars are started in its name or sustained in its name, one could hardly argue that religion has not been an aggravating factor. And the fact remains, no war has ever been started or likely sustained by reason.

    Besides, wars are not the only problems I mention that are created by religion. Thanks for your comment!

  • SandSand 164 Pts

    Just for my understanding, which wars are you referring to that were created by religion?
    Looks to me the wars are generated by politics.
    Maybe it could be said all of these countries had religion.
    But to say that it was an aggravating factor is like saying marriage was an aggravating factor for all these wars.


    World War 1
    The real causes of World War I included politics, secret alliances, imperialism, and nationalistic pride. However, there was one single event, the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria, which started a chain of events leading to war.
    World War 2
    The real causes of World War 2:
    Treaty of Versailles. The Treaty of Versailles ended World War I between Germany and the Allied Powers, Japanese Expansion, Fascism, Hitler and the Nazi Party, Appeasement, and the Great Depression.
    Vietnam
    The causes of the Vietnam War revolve around the simple belief held by America that communism was threatening to expand all over south-east Asia.
    Desert Storm
    After the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s, Iraq was in debt to Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, who had financed its war efforts. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein insisted both countries cancel that debt because he felt they owed him for protecting them against Iran.
    Mongolian Conquests
    To retain the loyalty of his ever-growing army, as the Mongols conquered and absorbed neighboring nomadic armies, Genghis Khan and his sons had to continue to sack cities. His followers were rewarded for their valor with luxury goods, horses, and slaves seized from the cities they conquered.
    Napoleonic Wars
    The causes are relatively simple, the Napoleonic Wars were caused by the French Revolution. After years of excesses caused by the French Revolution, Napoleon rose to establish some measure of peace and stability in France.


    War is a failure to implement Peaceful Negotiations.
    Instead of financing Peace Negotiators, countries finance weapons and troops.
    They spend Trillions training on how to kill, instead of how to prevent war.
    What is motivating soldiers is not a religion, but money.
    People do not enroll in the military for religious reasons, but for the income.
    They gamble that if I join the military hopefully there will not be a war.
    But once a war happens they are sacrificing their lives for the country, not for God, because usually, the same religious affiliation is on both sides.
    Usually, they are fighting beside differing religious affiliations.
    The only dividing factor is the political stand.

    Feel free to correct me.
  • @Sand ;  Thank you for your reply. To answer your first question I've included material from the bbc.com below specifically about holy wars. And according to something called Religio Magazine, the top religious wars are Isreal vs. Caanan (around 2000 b.c. ), Muslim Conquests(624 a.d.), The Crusades/The Children's Crusade (starting 1095 a.d.), The Second War of Kappel (1531 a.d.), Buddist Uprising (1966), Lebanese Civil War (1975), French Wars of Religion (1562-98 a.d.). Other sources would ad The Thirty Years War (1618-48), The Netherlands War of Independence (80 Years War) (1566-1609), Schmalkaldic War (1546-47), plus German Peasants War, Hussite War, Cologne War, Nine Years War,...

    I don't believe I originally said most wars are caused by religion. Whether that's true or not, there seems to be substantial evidence it has accounted for more than it's share. And again, I don't see how religion as, at the very least, an aggravating factor can not be included. I'm afraid that you've lost me with your marriage analogy. Feel free to explain that further. I believe I included the pursuit of wealth and booty in my original comment at any rate surely that is a relatively rare motivator. As I said likely most soldiers have not profited in this way from their fighting, especially in modern times. I don't think acts of zealotry are caused by money. I include not just overtly religious causes but also those that many would put under a secular heading. Mindless zealotry is in itself a religious condition no matter if it's motivated by fear, religion, a deified leader, nationalism, racism, anything that causes the suspension of rational faculties. So Kamikazies turning their planes into bombs was a religious act of blind devotion to the emperor, cult-like veneration of country, or absurdly disproportional fear of shame or damnation for not going through with it. Naziism had all the hallmarks of a religion, belief in an infallible god-like leader, strict doctrine, emblems, symbolism, rituals, revisionist history, expectations of blind unquestioned devotion, false belief in their possession of the truth and superiority. All of this unreasonable, not supported by a preponderance of facts and by use of reason. Mindless, religion-like unreason lead to monstrous acts (how would money fit in?)

    Do soldiers sacrifice themselves, make suicidal charges, fly their planes into ships or buildings, blow themselves up for money? Money they will never use.

    The present mayhem caused by radical Islam should be enough to warrant a desire for the removal of this destructive motivating force. And I do not confine all blame to extreme elements of religion as in that case. The mainstream moderate or liberal religions that are not directly militant, nevertheless, contain the seeds that enable the direct causes, superstition, blind devotion, faith and belief in the superiority of their world-view. And also in their lack of "zealotry" in condemning those radical elements.

     http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/religious/holywar.shtml
    https://religiomag.com/the-top-religious-wars-in-history/


  • SandSand 164 Pts
    @kenpage
    I do not believe Nationalism and Racism would be categorized in the same bracket as religion.
    Religion involves belief and worship in God.
    Nationalism is the interest and support of one's nation.
    Racism is the consideration of one race being superior to another.


    Believe me, I am not saying religion doesn't have dirty hands or does not play its part.
    Religion is a motivating factor, like an energy drink, but it is not the only energy drink on the market.
    Civil wars happen all the time, with the same religion on both sides.
    Catholics were in Germany and the USA during WW2.
    The military now bands all religious views, does it prevent people from enrolling and sacrificing themselves?


    But the question I think you trying to get to is how to prevent highly destructive mayhem?
    There are a variety of answers to that question.
    But for large entities, I believe you have to ask yourself if you want to stop an organism what valve do you cut off?
    What is the blood of the organism?
    Is it religion? If people do not have religious views, will they still die for a cause?
    How did the Government reduce terrorism?
    Attacking their belief system? Banding their religion? Or stopping their flow of funds?
    How did the Government prevent the Cartel from controlling America?
    Did they condemn their views about God? Or stop their access to money transfers?
    Mafia? Russia? China?
    It is my understanding that religion played very little parts in these entities.


    In every government, the entity with the money has the power.
    To have an army you must pay them, and everyone is willing to risk their lives for their families to be taken care of financially.
    That is the reason Hoover Dam was possible to be made with hardly any tractor equipment.
    That is the reason Skyscrapers were built because the construction worker would walk 30 and 60 floors with no harnesses.

    There are plenty of political factions that have no religion.
    There are no political factions without money.
    Relatively few wars involved no money.

    Not every act of atrocity involved money because it is not the only motivating factor on the market.
    It is why criminals break in and steal.
    It is why drug dealers do drivebys.
    It is why stockbrokers commit suicide or begin shooting sprees.

    We are gaining traction, keep hitting my reasoning!
  • @Sand Yes, I think with acts of zealotry, cutting off the religion would stop it. No religion, no planes into buildings. No religion, no Crusades (would you argue that the Crusaders used religion as a mask to disguise their real motives-booty and profit?). No religion, no WWII (Hitler would not have sustained the kind of support needed to prosecute his war without a kind of blind religious belief from his people). And remember I was referring to the acts of soldiers on the ground.  So, I'm not sure you are addressing my central argument. That all actions motivated by zealotry/fanaticism are religious acts. Nationalism, Racism,.. are at least within the same categorization family. They share much in common (refer to previous). Even a sports fanatic can exhibit a kind of religious obsession that is mentally unhealthy, irrational and delusional (I know from personal experience). Of course, money and many other motivations create wars. And you present some fine evidence for it as a cause.  If there were some way to moderate human greed, that would be just as or more beneficial in preventing wars.  But I would think it a rare influence day today on the battlefield. 

    But I don't believe you've countered the supposition that wars are motivated and impacted by religion to a significant degree and therefore its elimination would at least reduce conflict. Surely you do not assert that money is the main cause Do you really think the Northern Ireland conflict would have been as protracted had religion been eliminated as a factor? Do you really think all the conflict in the Middle East in the 20th and 21st centuries would have been as abundant and bloody without religion? Was all this about greed or oil?  Do ISIS and Al Quida just use religion to mask its true ulterior ambitions, say power, control, influence, money? Well, those are contributors to most any war. But ISIS isn't using "enrich yourselves", "gain more influence", "gain more control over your personal life" as its main recruiting and inspirational tools. It uses religion. The inhuman acts of cruelty we've seen and heard about are not enabled by any ordinary desire for power or influence. The desire must be extreme, a kind of madness. And fanatical faith and blind devotion to anything is a kind of madness.  Religion is a great way to disguise madness as normality and a great vehicle for creating it.  I don't know,  but perhaps people who commit wicked acts are, consciously or subconsciously, assisted by their culture's acceptance of religious belief (any belief in God is the belief in something for which there is no credible evidence), especially unquestioned religious belief as normal and even desirable. Something, in that attitude, allows them to rationalize their actions.

    I think the better option is a society based on reason. Not one that worships reason. That in itself would be unreasonable. But one that has reason overtly as part of its foundation and supported by a culture that puts superstition (any belief in something for which there is no evidence is superstitious, so those who are religious to any degree are embracing superstition) in perspective and into its proper context. Not one that suppresses any sort of belief including superstition. But one that unashamedly and objectively calls a spade a spade.

    There are several of your individual points I'd like to address but time dictates I settle for just one.  You say "The military now bands all religious views, does it prevent people from enrolling and sacrificing themselves?"  I assume you mean the US military. Well, of course, that is a policy that I support. But the Us military is only one military and I don't know how universal that approach is around the world. Also, we both know that pressures can be applied, discrimination enacted to silently persuade people to conform to unspoken traditions, God and country in this case, i.e. you are representing and fighting for both. Put another way, how much of the military's policy is enforced and how much is lip-service? Finally, even if the military is saying it out loud the culture certainly is. "God and Country" is embedded in the culture. Many potential young recruits will be literally or more subtly told this by their family, friends, etc. My point, making religious neutrality the policy does not eliminate it as a factor. Though I might call it a good start. 
  • maxx said:
    what, if any, kind of "magic" powers does satan have?





    @maxx ;
    In the first place how do you know satan exists?
    You`re just going by what the bible insists.
    You are assuming the bible is right,
    Maybe it is wrong:gone the light.

    The bible is bible is unlikely to be true. I can make up a god and put it into a book.
  • maxxmaxx 241 Pts
    no, I am neither assuming nor denying that the bible is correct.  it is just a hypothetical question@RS_master
  • SandSand 164 Pts

    I agree with you on two religions Muslim and Catholic.
    For two reasons.
    #1 Do not excommunicate those who demonstrate actions they do not approve of.
    #2 They condone war

    But if people did not have religion people would not have war?
    There would no longer be Gorilla Warfare?
    Do people need to rationalize their actions to act on them?
    Did you address the Cartel? The Mafia? Criminals?

    I really believe that religion is the scapegoat of a lot of decisions already made.

    A rationalization is performed, constructing a seemingly good or logical reason, as an attempt to justify the act after the fact (for oneself or others).

  • @Sand I'm sorry, I don't follow? Please clarify, what are your specific questions/points? How do the Cartels, Mafia, Criminals factor in? Rationalization? 

    I don't believe I said there would be no war if there were no religion.
    Rationalization (context?).  There usually is no "after the fact" (your definition) on suicidal missions/actions.
    Give an example of religion being the scapegoat for a decision already made.   
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