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Is teaching religion to kids abuse?
in Religion

By Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 2410 Pts
One of the major components of religion is fear, in particular the fear of hell that is used to control and suggest to children that if they do not do as they are told they will be tortured for eternity.

Can this a form of child abuse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjrjE8LHOVs


  1. Live Poll

    Is religious indoctrination that involves threats and fear abuse?

    14 votes
    1. Yes, in all circumstances. Religious indoctrination is always abusive.
      14.29%
    2. In some circumstances yes, if taken to an extreme.
      35.71%
    3. In some circumstances no, only if done with malice.
      21.43%
    4. No, religious indoctrination is not abusive.
      28.57%
At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
Through a long process of evolution this life 
developed into the human race.
Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

All of that so we can argue about nothing.
«13



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Arguments

  • RickeyDRickeyD 555 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot ; What religion are you talking about?


    Zombieguy1987ZeusAres42
  • @RickeyD I'm certainly not talking about evolution, because we have directly observed it happening, therefore we do not have to accept it based on belief.

    Even if it was a religion, it wouldn't qualify anyways because there is no fear component.

    So to answer your question, any and all religions that use fear to justify themselves/control manipulate.

    So Islam, Christianity, Scientology, Catholics (since you don't consider them Christians), Judaism, Paganism, and just for fun extremist ideologies.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    If religious teachings causes psychological trauma to children, then it is certainly a child abuse. 
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3409 Pts
    edited January 6
    Instilling fear in a child is not necessarily abuse, especially when the parent genuinely believes that the fear is justified. You would not want the child to not at all be afraid of heights, for example, would you? To a religious parent, being afraid of hell seems just as, if not more, important.

    Moreover, to a certain extent, absolutely everything we do in live is dictated by fear. Take something as seemingly pure and innocent as love - and if you dig deep enough, you will see that love ultimately comes from the fear of being alone and the desperate need to form a deep connection with someone else. And while some spiritual gurus will object, "Yes, but only if it comes from the scarcity mindset! Abundance mindset has nothing to do with fear!", why do they want to have the abundance mindset in the first place? Because they are afraid of the consequences of living in the scarcity mindset. So, ultimately, everything comes down to a set of very fundamental fears all humans have. Without our fears we would not be alive, as we would lack the incentive to do anything.

    One could say that the fear before a fantasy entity is different, as that entity does not exist. But then, what does it mean for something to exist? Do goblins exist? Everyone knows what a goblin is. Goblins exist in people's minds, and often what is in our minds has a much bigger impact on our lives, than what is in our physical reality.

    I do not see any fundamental difference between teaching kids religion and teaching kids any other ideology/philosophy. I do think that parents should always teach kids to be open-minded and draw conclusions on their own, but it can only be taught on top of an already existing base world view, and I do not see why that world view cannot come from religion.

    If I am ever a parent, I will definitely tell my children about religions from the point of "These are some of the ideologies some humans follow. Here is why I think they do so, here is what I think is good about them, here is what I think is bad about them. These are my thoughts; now it is up to you to make sense of all of it". I will never teach them any particular ideology as the true one, however, as, first, I do not believe that there are "true" ideologies, and second, I am me and they are them.
    Antoliny
  • DeeDee 2364 Pts
    edited January 6
    Yes it is a form of child abuse , but of course it’s totally denied by its followers which demonstrates clearly the madness of crowds as in if everyone else is doing it how can it be abuse? 

    Religion and it’s teachings have been used to brutalise , victimize and demonise those who weren’t part of the  group and to tell a child he /she faces a fiery pit for minor infractions of a moral code written by bronze age goat herds is abuse and a form of madness.

    I think religious belief will be termed a mental illness by future generations , it’s the greatest money making racket ever thought up and a marvelous way to control to an extent the sheeple 

    Read below even if it’s “well intentioned”  it’s abuse pain and simple ,read below .........


    Wiki 

    One specific meaning of the term religious abuse refers to psychological manipulation and harm inflicted on a person by using the teachings of their religion. This is perpetrated by members of the same or similar faith, and includes the use of a position of authority within the religion.It is most often directed at children and emotionally vulnerable adults, and motivations behind such abuse vary, but can be either well-intentioned or malicious.


    Even well-intentioned religious abuse can have long-term psychological consequences, such as the victim developing phobias or long-term depression. They may have a sense of shame that persists even after they leave the religion. A person can also be manipulated into avoiding a beneficial action (such as a medical treatment) or to engage in a harmful behavior.

    Happy_Killbot
  • @MayCaesar I would say I agree for the most part, but there are some major differences between the way you might teach your kids to, for example, avoid poisonous spiders and mushrooms or falling from a high place. A little bit of fear is helpful at times to avoid these pitfalls, but it isn't in the fact that fear is a major component of these lessons, it's in the way that it is taught.

    For the spiders and berries examples, you might just tell your kids to avoid all spiders first so they don't bite, and of course there is an evolutionary component to arachnophobia so until they are older and can learn to differentiate spider types, this is fine. With the mushroom example, you might just tell them not to eat particular mushrooms that are poisonous, or tell them which they can and can't eat.

    For religion, at least the way it was taught to me, it goes a little bit deeper. There is a constant impression of the belief that if you sin you will go to hell, and this is brought up at every instance, even if nothing was one wrong. I think this is why a lot of Christian sects are so obsessed with the rapture and the second coming of Jesus, because the way they see it at any time they will go to heaven and all of the "others" who are not Christian will burn in hell forever. What's different about this type of fear and what makes it like child abuse, is in the psychological impact.

    Let's compare the examples above (spiders and mushrooms) to a story from one of my coworkers from a previous job. His mother was a drug addict and was generally abusive. When she wanted to shoot up, she would tell him there was an invisible snake that would bite him unless he hid his head under a sheet and sat still in the corner.

    In the first examples we would be hard pressed to say that there is any abuse there, because the information has direct practical implementation by the child, avoid spiders and poisonous mushrooms. In the second example, there is a practical purpose for telling your child about an invisible snake, but for the child there is no real benefit (except arguably, for the parent) so we can declare this psychological child abuse.

    Religion lies somewhere in between these examples, on one had it could be argued that there is practical purpose for the child, teaching them moral values and traditions, and on the other it can easily be taken way to far. Like in that video I posted and the others like it from "bible camp" which is likely a play on words from boot camp, it is easy to see how that is just straight indoctrination and many people would argue that it crosses the line into abuse. Children will naturally find out about things like zombies, dragons, and goblins from their peers, and they may be frightened by these things, but it isn't like the parents are going out of their way to tell them at every opportunity that they will eaten by the goblins if they do not do exactly what they say. 
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    "Is teaching religion to kids abuse?"


    Show ONE courtroom case where any American Religious parent, or parents have ever been arrested and jailed for abusing their kids with any Religion? 


    대왕광개토
  • 대왕광개토대왕광개토 231 Pts
    edited January 6
    @TKDB
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12267119
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/news/world/newborn-dies-because-religious-parents-dont-believe-in-medical-care-now-theyre-headed-to-jail/amp
    https://www.masskids.org/index.php/religious-medical-neglect/cases-of-child-deaths
    After you read the articles above, don't ever make bull$hit statements like "Show one courtroom case where any American religious parent, or parents have ever been arrested and jailed for abusing their kids with any Religion?" 
    TKDBHappy_KillbotAntoliny
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    I looked up the term Religious Indoctrination

    From Wikipedia:

    "Religious context
    As a pejorative term, indoctrination implies forcibly or coercively causing people to act and think on the basis of a certain ideology. Some secular critics believe that all religions indoctrinate their adherents, as children, and the accusation is made in the case of religious extremism.
    Wikipedia › wiki › Indoctrination

    Show me any news footage, where any Religion building in the U.S., was shut down by the FBI, or a local law enforcement agency, because the Religious people inside of a Religious building, were forcibly pushing any Religion unto the Religious people who voluntarily went inside of the building?

    Do you have any such news footage, to support your Religious Indoctrination theory, with some Real World results? 
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    @대왕광개토

    Take a deep breath, show this forum some Real World news footage?

    Or do some more Atheist Internet fishing, to find a news story, where Religion was found guilty of telling people to commit any crimes? 
    Happy_Killbot대왕광개토
  • @TKDB Keep on denying the truth.  :D
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfen
  • @TKDB Yes, I posted the video in the opening statement.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @TKDB How about instead of us proving you wrong repeatedly,

    You talk about your experiences with religious abuse.

    Tells us about your childhood, assuming you were raised in a religious household, and how you were taught about hell and eternal damnation. Please, be as descriptive as possible. Tell us your life story. Don't leave out any relevant details.

    Did you learn about hell from your church or parents?

    Were you ever made to read books about hell?

    How did learning about hell make you feel?

    Did you ever have any dreams about hell?

    What was the first memory you have about learning about hell?

    Were there things that you wanted to do but didn't because you were afraid of going to hell?

    At this time in your life, what are your thoughts about hell like?

    If your life is abuse free, then you can say the worst possible things for all of these and it won't matter, because if it looks bad but isn't then maybe religion isn't ever abusive.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot, not unless done with ill intent. The entire purpose behind religion was to teach morals to children. Children love to ask "why" because they are so curious and want to learn. When you don't have the answer, you tell them "because God says so" or "because I said so". It's nothing more than a tool to teach how rules work. Religion is just a parenting tool. How it's used determines if it's abusive or not.
    Happy_Killbot
  • @LogicVault I would say this is typically the most reasonable answer, but just to play devil's advocate here, can just telling your kids something is wrong "because I said so" sometimes abusive if not just bad parenting?

    On another note, there is no evidence to suggest that religion makes people more moral.

    It is a commonly held belief, especially in the US, that religion does make people more moral, but the evidence to back it up just isn't there. The primary focus of religions seems to be for the sake of religion more so than the sake of the individual, although there are mutual benefits, for example religious cultures tend to have more children, because religion is mostly spread from parent to child. It also promotes in-group social behavior and tends to keep people inside their relative communities, which tends to lead to long term stability.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4345965/

    Children raised in atheist or agnostic homes grow up to be just as good and caring as their religious counterparts, and perhaps even more so. Although the jury is still out on which is the cause and which is the effect, studies show that more religious areas are less stable and have higher rates of violent crime than secular areas, and this is true both withing the US and on the global stage, with the notable exceptions of Vietnam and China.

    https://www.pitzer.edu/academics/wp-content/uploads/sites/38/2014/12/FAC-Zuckerman-Sociology-Compass.pdf

    There is no statistical link between religion and peace, in fact, most religions tend to lead to greater social upheaval and instability. while other religions tend to remain stable for long periods of time. The lack of a connection means that religion doesn't make things more peaceful.

    http://economicsandpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Peace-and-Religion-Report.pdf
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    See, this is an example of Athiest talking head, using me, as an example for their biased Atheist pulpit?

    Dude, when you want to act like My Atheist Parenting figure, how about getting your Atheist mouth swabbed for a DNA test, instead of hiding behind your anonymous profile name, and man up for a Debate to my face, in public?

    Face to face?

    "How about instead of us proving you wrong repeatedly,

    You talk about your experiences with religious abuse.

    Tells us about your childhood, assuming you were raised in a religious household, and how you were taught about hell and eternal damnation. Please, be as descriptive as possible. Tell us your life story. Don't leave out any relevant details.

    Did you learn about hell from your church or parents?

    Were you ever made to read books about hell?

    How did learning about hell make you feel?

    Did you ever have any dreams about hell?

    What was the first memory you have about learning about hell?

    Were there things that you wanted to do but didn't because you were afraid of going to hell?

    At this time in your life, what are your thoughts about hell like?

    If your life is abuse free, then you can say the worst possible things for all of these and it won't matter, because if it looks bad but isn't then maybe religion isn't ever abusive."
    Happy_Killbot대왕광개토
  • @TKDB So do you think you were abused via religion as a child or not?

    If you don't tell us your story, how can we come to any kinds of conclusions?

    Maybe you were not abused via religion as a child, and if so then telling your story honestly and truthfully will expose this whole thread as fraudulent.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts


    "Atheists 'come out' to protest in Washington DC"

    See, this is an example of an Atheist protest in Washington D.C..

    As thousands of Atheists, watch a handful of actual Atheist protestors protest Religion from behind an electronic device?

    That is what Real World protesting looks like @Happy_Killbot.


    @Happy_Killbot are you my Atheist Parenting figure?

    Because if you're not.

    The below Atheist talking head trash talk means zero to me:

    "@TKDB So do you think you were abused via religion as a child or not?

    If you don't tell us your story, how can we come to any kinds of conclusions?

    Maybe you were not abused via religion as a child, and if so then telling your story honestly and truthfully will expose this whole thread as fraudulent."

    Are you, or are you not going to claim to be my personal Atheist Parenting figure? 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3409 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    This stretches the definition of "child abuse" quite a bit. I can see something as direct as physical violence, or extreme verbal abuse, as examples of "child abuse" - but simply scaring the child with hell in order to discipline him/her, without actually doing anything beyond the act of scaring, is hardly abuse. I would say that it is bad parenting, since it teaches the kid to run away from things (negative motivation), instead of setting goals and pursuing them (positive motivation), which will likely prove a huge handicap in his/her life once he/she grows up - but there are many different types of bad parenting, and even complete lack of abuse can constitute bad parenting. I do not see the two as equivalent.

    In addition, not every interpretation of religion is fear-based. I have met quite a few Christians and Muslims that do not take the threats of hell seriously and would never teach them their kids - yet they were deeply religious individuals. Not every religious individual is a fundamentalist like @RickeyD, and some religious individuals are quite a bit more loving than most atheist individuals - Nick Vujicic being the most obvious example.

    Now, I obviously do not have the same experience people who grew up in religious families have: my parents have always been atheists (one of the few positive things I can say about communist regimes is that they are pretty good at making organised religion into a laughing stock in the society), and my grandparents tried to teach me religion in a very poor way that even I, a 6 years old kid, could easily see through.
    But my point is that different religious parents have different parenting styles. They may or may not be abusive, and it does not depend as much on the religion being taught, as on its particular interpretation and on the parenting style involved.
  • TKDB said:


    "Atheists 'come out' to protest in Washington DC"

    See, this is an example of an Atheist protest in Washington D.C..

    As thousands of Atheists, watch a handful of actual Atheist protestors protest Religion from behind an electronic device?

    That is what Real World protesting looks like @Happy_Killbot.


    @Happy_Killbot are you my Atheist Parenting figure?

    Because if you're not.

    The below Atheist talking head trash talk means zero to me:

    "@TKDB So do you think you were abused via religion as a child or not?

    If you don't tell us your story, how can we come to any kinds of conclusions?

    Maybe you were not abused via religion as a child, and if so then telling your story honestly and truthfully will expose this whole thread as fraudulent."

    Are you, or are you not going to claim to be my personal Atheist Parenting figure? 

    So instead of addressing his arguments, you are bringing a topic that is irrelevant to what is being discussed. What a great debater.
  • @MayCaesar Emotional and psychological abuse is still abuse. I would not call that a stretch of the term, because the way I see it, it's the primary method of abuse.

    https://www.healthline.com/health/child-neglect-and-psychological-abuse
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 555 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot ; I ask again, what religion are you suggesting is harmful to children?  Atheism naturally espouses the mutilation of children in the womb...as atheism is a servant of Satan in Time and murder-death are his primary attributes (John 8:44). Are you asking about the religion of atheism as being harmful? If so, I would say YES...atheism is destructive to children both physiologically and psychologically as well as spiritually and eternally.


    smoothie
  • @RickeyD First off, atheism is as much a religion as "off" is a TV channel.

    All the things that you list as "atheist beliefs" will be disposed of the moment there is information disproving them, and I absolutely despise scientism, as does any credible scientist, and actively fight it.

    We might say there a 4 ways to think about any claim or belief, which i'm stealing straight from https://waitbutwhy.com/2019/09/thinking-ladder.html It's an excellent read that I would highly recommend.

    For example, lets say the idea is a particular video showing a demon.

    A scientist would think about it like a boxing match. If you want to know who is the better boxer you throw them into a ring and let them fight. same with ideas, which is what debating is all about. It's about ideas challenging ideas.

    So for our example someone might provide evidence showing how it could be faked, and a video showing film techniques that could do the same thing, and an online article that shows both the creator and credits to the video. It might be suggested that demons are not physical, and thus can not be filmed or that they are only observable through interactions rather than physics.

    A sane thinker, would review this evidence and conclude that the video is probably faked. That's thinking like a scientist.

    Moving down the later, we have thinking like a sports fan. Let's say someone really wants demons to be real, but they decide when reviewing the evidence that the video is probably faked. These types typically take sides, but at the end of the day it is about the game so to speak, so even if their team or boxing champion or idea loses, they are still okay with it. They adjust their thinking and move on.

    Bellow this level of thought, we have thinking like an attorney. These are the types who desperately try to prove one side or the other, and no matter what will always be beholden to an idea, even when it is proved wrong.

    So this types reaction to the video would be to provide counter evidence and examples to try and undermine the claims against the idea that is made, by any means necessary. These ideas may then be attacked themselves and determined right or wrong. This type of thinking is useful in an actual court room, where everyone comes in and is expected to only provide evidence for one side.

    Then at the bottom we have thinking like a zealot. In this way of thinking, every idea that opposes or contradicts your own set of ideas and beliefs is automatically wrong and being closed minded to other ideas is the norm. To thinkers like this, discourse that is not in line with what they believe feels like a personal attack.

    This is where the discourse from last night mostly took place. If someone completely believes the video is real, then nothing anyone else could say will ever make them change their mind, no matter what.
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @RickeyD As far as religious abuse goes, I think taking the same approach as above is warranted.

    I want to know about your childhood and experiences learning about hell, as much as you can remember and as detailed as possible. Think about questions like:

    Did you learn about hell from your church or parents?

    Were you ever made to read books about hell?

    How did learning about hell make you feel?

    Did you ever have any dreams about hell?

    What was the first memory you have about learning about hell?

    Were there things that you wanted to do but didn't because you were afraid of going to hell?

    At this time in your life, what are your thoughts about hell like?

    If your life is abuse free, then you can say the worst possible things for all of these and it won't matter, because if it looks bad but isn't then maybe religion isn't ever abusive.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3409 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    That is how the government decides it, focusing on the outcome versus the action (as it usually does). Yet this does not make a lot of sense from the logical perspective.

    For one, neglect cannot be considered child abuse, because neglect by definition means refraining from action. An act of abuse has to be active; you cannot abuse someone by doing nothing. Now, you can abuse a child by putting them into the situation where they are cut off from all other possibilities to acquire basic necessities such as food and water, and then neglecting them and leaving them in that situation would be an act of abuse - but simply, say, not showing enough affection (what is "enough" in this context anyway) is not abuse by any reasonable definition of the word.

    People should stop throwing loaded terms around: "harassment", "abuse", "racism", "sexism", "discrimination", "bigotry", "evilness"... It seems that nowadays anything gets called these terms, whenever an emotionally charged situation occurs.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 555 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot ; I think the video is silly...Satan nor his demons work in this manner...Satan is a conniving military strategist and works through subtle and enduring patience; unfortunately, you are an example of his success. You have been absorbed and deceived by naturalism; therefore, you cannot see or apprehend the reality of the spiritual that inundates our World and our lives...you have been trapped by naivete and methodical brainwashing through a secular education; therefore, you are in horrific spiritual trouble unaware and you won't listen. I am sorry.


     
  • @RickeyD
    Atheism is not a religion but an absence of religion. The religion in your humorous image seems to be describing a collection of scientific beliefs which do not define atheism.
    ZeusAres42
  • @MayCaesar I don't see what neglect has to do with things, although religions do sometimes use neglect as a means of control, just not in the way you would expect.

    Take the Jehovah's witnesses as an example.

    The reason they go around proselytizing is not to try and make converts, it's to get them rejected as much as possible. When they go to houses of non believers, what do they do? They ask them to leave. This reinforces the us vs them narrative they are told, causing them to seek comfort and community with their religious community. The idea is to force this idea of isolation into their minds.

    When Jehovah's witnesses come to my door, I let them in and talk to them about it from an epistemological standpoint. After a while I will try to get them to understand this, without telling them. I haven't been successful yet, but with practice perhaps.

    Since you were not raised in religion, I can see how it is hard for you to understand what it is like and why so many who leave religion consider it abuse. I don't think that people always throw these terms around, I think that a lot of the times they are credible and other times they are just looking for attention. It depends on the situation, but we can't just go around victim blaming at every turn because someone claims they were abused, because for all you know they were.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 555 Pts
    edited January 6
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 ; You are incorrect. Atheism IS a religion of the demonic.


    2) Appeals court case stating that atheism is a religion: http://https//www.jstor.org/stable/23920967?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


    4) Secular humanism as a religion: http://https//christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-r002.html 


    Atheism is the religion of Satan manifest in Time and atheists do the bidding of Satan unaware. 





  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    @대왕광개토

    You're another non Religious individual, preaching you non religious views, right?

    Just as the Religious individuals preach their religious views, right?

    You're no different than a Religious individual is, are you?

    "So instead of addressing his arguments, you are bringing a topic that is irrelevant to what is being discussed. What a great debater."
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 436 Pts
    edited January 6
    RickeyD said:
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 ; You are incorrect. Atheism IS a religion of the demonic.


    2) Appeals court case stating that atheism is a religion: http://https//www.jstor.org/stable/23920967?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


    4) Secular humanism as a religion: http://https//christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-r002.html 


    Atheism is the religion of Satan manifest in Time and atheists do the bidding of Satan unaware. 





    Hmm... interesting. All of your links are from religious websites. What a coincidence.
    Such websites tend to take a dim view of atheism, and mistakenly label it as a religion simply to rebut one of the strongest arguments against the teaching of religion.
    Happy_Killbotsmoothie
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3409 Pts
    edited January 6
    @Happy_Killbot

    Apologies, I misread the article you linked, linking neglect to child abuse, while it was actually talking about neglect and child abuse - as distinctively different entities.

    I likely have never met an open Jenovah's witness. Most religious people I have met in my life were actually very reasonable, and I have met Christians, Muslims, Hinduists, Buddhists and Shintoists from different parts of the world. The Shintoist geisha in Japan I hanged out with for a bit actually humbled me so much, I felt like a barbarian next to her in conversations, both in the intellectual and cultural sense. I have also had good experiences with three different churches in the US (I believe they were all Baptist) I frequented, where, despite me being an open atheist, I was received very well - those churches seemed more like charity organisations, than religious ones.
    Fanatics I have mostly met only on the Internet. Mostly.

    Well, I have not grown up in a religious environment, but the place I was raised was not an ideological paradise either. There is a difference between indoctrination and simple sharing of knowledge, and I think people often mistake the latter for the former.

    No, I disagree. Quite the opposite; for all I know, they were not abused. The burden of proof is on the person who makes a positive claim. Now, people generally do not lie about such things - but "generally" does not apply to individual cases. A lot of people claimed they were abused for political or some other form of gain, only to be proven wrong later. This is not "victim blaming", when the person has not been shown to be a victim.
    Presumption of innocence is one of the core concepts of the Western society, and it should not be compromised on, no matter how emotionally arousing someone's story is.
  • @MayCaesar

    @TKDB
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12267119
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/nationalpost.com/news/world/newborn-dies-because-religious-parents-dont-believe-in-medical-care-now-theyre-headed-to-jail/amp
    https://www.masskids.org/index.php/religious-medical-neglect/cases-of-child-deaths
    After you read the articles above, don't ever make bull$hit statements like "Show one courtroom case where any American religious parent, or parents have ever been arrested and jailed for abusing their kids with any Religion?" 

    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2364 Pts
    This says it all really , there’s no reasonable counter to the logic of this piece .....

    Happy_Killbotsmoothie
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    edited January 6
    @Happy_Killbot

    Is it any Religions fault when ANY adult, or adults kill their kids?

    Please, show ONE courtroom case where any Religion was found guilty of killing any kids, along with the guilty parents? 

    And where any Religion is serving prison time for murder? 

    Christianity?

    Catholicism?

    Islam? 

    Show ONE courtroom case, where the Atheist ideology, is serving prison time for a committed crime, right along with the incarcerated Atheist? 


  • @TKDB Abuse only involves killing in extreme cases.

    Also It isn't the biological parents you have to worry about, it's the step parents.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    edited January 6
    @Happy_Killbot

    "@TKDB Abuse only involves killing in extreme cases.

    Also It isn't the biological parents you have to worry about, it's the step parents."

    You're not facing the questions @Happy_KillbotKillbot.

    Is it any Religions fault when ANY adult, or adults kill their kids?

    Please, show ONE courtroom case where any Religion was found guilty of killing any kids, along with the guilty parents? 

    And where any Religion is serving prison time for murder? 

    Christianity?

    Catholicism?

    Islam? 

    Show ONE courtroom case, where the Atheist ideology, is serving prison time for a committed crime, right along with the incarcerated Atheist?  

    Do you have an answer @Happy_Killbot?

     Or do you have more Atheist mouth running to do?

    My guess, more Atheist mouth running.
    Happy_Killbot
  • @TKDB You have already seen 3 examples of court cases where religion was a major factor in the abuse of children.

    It is preposterous to think that the religion, which is a set of customs and beliefs can serve prison time. Prison is for people. People can be religious, but you can not lock religion in prison.

    Do you have any actual arguments or are you just going to get butt hurt the way you normally do?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    "Sagan's views on religion have been interpreted as a form of pantheism comparable to Einstein's belief in Spinoza's God. His son, Dorion Sagan said, "My father believed in the God of Spinoza and Einstein, God not behind nature but as nature, equivalent to it." 

    Why are you using Sagan, as a part of your non Religious preaching? 
    Happy_Killbot
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    edited January 6
    @Happy_Killbot

    Is any Religion in jail, along with the incarcerated adults?

    No, Christianity, Islam, and Catholicism are not in jail, for any human caused crimes are they?

    You're doing nothing more than preaching your non Religious views.

    "@TKDB You have already seen 3 examples of court cases where religion was a major factor in the abuse of children.

    It is preposterous to think that the religion, which is a set of customs and beliefs can serve prison time. Prison is for people. People can be religious, but you can not lock religion in prison.

    Do you have any actual arguments or are you just going to get butt hurt the way you normally do?"

    Is the term butt hurt and Atheist created term?

    I'm not butthurt at all.

    The Truth is there is no Religion in jail for the crimes committed by any parent, or parents, or adults in general.

    And you have ZERO proof to say otherwise.
  • @TKDB Be gone, troll.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @TKDB Be gone, troll.

    Has he asked you if God, the Bible or Religion in general was put on trial yet?









  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3409 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    Those are specific examples, however. Not all religious parents choose faith-healing for their kids over real healthcare, and, in turn, some non-religious parents are in favor of subduing their kids to various kinds of alternative medicine (homeopathy is just one of the more common ones).

    It is important to separate effects of religion itself from effects of views that come with a particular interpretation of religion.

    I will be the first to say that religion is a fertile ground for violence and authoritarianism, given its dogmatism - but one should not make it into a bigger monster than it actually is.
  • @ZeusAres42 This isn't the first time then.

    How long has this madness ensued?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    edited January 6
    @ZeusAres42

    If You have an issue, you can take it up with Aarong?

    Share this information with him?

    @TKDB Be gone, troll."

    "Has he asked you if God, the Bible or Religion in general was put on trial yet?"


  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    Why no answer for this equal and fair question?


    "Sagan's views on religion have been interpreted as a form of pantheism comparable to Einstein's belief in Spinoza's God. His son, Dorion Sagan said, "My father believed in the God of Spinoza and Einstein, God not behind nature but as nature, equivalent to it." 

    "Why are you using Sagan, as a part of your non Religious preaching?"

  • Anyway, for the question, I say it's a bit of a yes and no. Teaching Children about religion is not abuse. Now, in this world, we have multiple religions and people that engage in religious practices. Some religious practices are indeed harmful such as Child Marriage which there is also now legislation that covers this, and rightly so. I also don't agree with the statement that abuse being done in the name of religion; that's just the reflection of a very naive mind. In fact, some forms of child abuse happen as a result of harmful religious practices which are a direct precept of certain religious ideologies.

    With that being said, I also think we need to consider that there are completely harmless religious practices and ideologies. And I think we need to be careful that when we witness these harmful acts that we don't become so aversed as to hate all religion and all religious people.

    So yeah, it depends on what is being taught basically. If for example a child is being taught that female genital mutilation is okay because it's the religion that would come under abuse, also by law in several modern countries including the United States. Furthermore, the right to religious freedom does not entail you the right to do as you please with other human beings, and fortunately, our legal systems now acknowledge this.
    Happy_Killbot









  • @ZeusAres42 This isn't the first time then.

    How long has this madness ensued?

    Nope, not the first time. And too long to remember haha.









  • @TKDB
    [sarcasm]

    Good job!

    You finally figured it out. That's what all atheists believe right there, we worship and give praise to Sagan and Einstein!

    That's what we all do.

    It's a good thing you are so smart and can think of fair and equal questions, and aren't just a simpleton troll.

    No body likes a troll, because trolls don't actually make points or say anything of value, they just make a lot of ruckus and have no friends.

    But since you have so many online and offline friends, we know that you are anything but a troll, and your input is greatly appreciated.

    [/sarcasm]
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • smoothiesmoothie 376 Pts
    edited January 6
    I don't find religion abusive to teach in itself. If children are interested, you are giving them the opportunity to learn a major historical part of our culture handed down over centuries.

    I find abuse in religion when parents force the children to behave a certain religion and then expect them to abide by their beliefs. It can be unreasonable to expect that of your children that they will follow everything you believe. This is especially why I despise religious sects like Jehova's witnesses who put religion before their own family members and shun them for life if they don't obey.

    Religion can lead to some forms of child abuse, but I don't believe religion itself is a form of abuse when viewed from the perspective of information and sharing thoughts and feelings.
    Happy_Killbot
    why so serious?
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