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Is being/wanting to be transgender a mental illness or is it a natural way of life
in United States

By ShamgurdShamgurd 27 Pts
i feel like everyone kinda forgot about this when it used to be a hot topic for debates, just seeing what you guys thoughts are on it being something mental as far as something happening in there child hood or a actual mental medical problem
  1. Live Poll

    what is being/wanting to be transgender

    9 votes
    1. mental disability
      77.78%
    2. Natural way of life
      22.22%



Debra AI Prediction

Predicted To Win
Predicted 2nd Place
22%
Margin

Details +



Arguments

  • Let's study this phenomenon objectively, sexual transformation .
    What causes a person to become a transgender? What are the motives for this? It is simply a psychological disorder and a lack of self-acceptance which is a type of anomaly if you ask someone who wants to be a transgender why you want to change your gender ? He will reply , im not satisfied I like the other gender !
    But are we free to play with nature ? Are we allowed to play with hormones ? The answer is no !
    The non accepting of yourself means the first failure 
    Now let's ask a transgender are you satisfied choosing the opposite gender ? A study shows 86% of them are not !! 
    So people we are agree that this fact is clearly a mental disability
    Plaffelvohfensmoothie
  • WTF is a "natural" way of life?
    PlaffelvohfenAhmedKhardanismoothieJudeCaruso
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • smoothiesmoothie 241 Pts
    edited January 12
    I am confused about the distinction between "mental illness" and "natural way of life". I am under the impression that mental illness naturally occurs, and people with mental illnesses did not choose them, they came naturally to them.
    But are we free to play with nature ? Are we allowed to play with hormones ? The answer is no !
    @AhmedKhardani Many people have played with hormones in other ways unrelated to transgenderism, a lot of it comes in food science. Specifically, growth hormones in milk and meat. Are you also making the argument that this is not okay?

    Humans have played with nature greatly. We have bred animals to produce more meat, look pretty, and become more useful to us. We have grown many food products in such a way that nature did not, developing more edible and sustainable food products. We have also created civilization and tread over huge amounts of natural land for our gain. We have developed life-saving medicine and increased the life expectancy of populations by "playing with nature". It's an oversight to say that "playing with nature" is an overall terrible thing when it has done much good for humanity in the long run.
    The non accepting of yourself means the first failure
    It is perfectly okay to not accept yourself in certain situations. If you are obese and suffering health problems, simply accepting that fact will only detriment your health and not encourage you to change. If you addicted to a drug, not accepting that part of yourself is required to stop the addiction. Calling all self non-acceptance a failure and saying that everybody needs to stay the same is faulty.
    Now let's ask a transgender are you satisfied choosing the opposite gender ? A study shows 86% of them are not !!
    Please source this study or I simply cannot believe what you are saying here
    AhmedKhardaniPlaffelvohfen
    why
  • Obviously, since the phenomenon of transgenderism exists in the nature, it is a natural way of life.

    Seriously though, it could be either, both or neither. How to classify it depends on the perspective, but the essence of it does not depend on the classification.
  • @AhmedKhardani
    Majority of people have something that we dislike about ourselves and it is a human right to be able to able to try doing something to alleviate the pain, for example, people getting plastic surgery for a part of their body they aren't confident about. Bodily autonomy is a birthright, so if someone wants to get hormone treatment, they should be allowed to do so, even if it- as you say- goes against nature. Also, where did you source your statistic from? It would be great if you could include a link. Thanks. 
  • @AhmedKhardani
    What is the scientific proof that being transgender is a disorder? Could you link your source? If not, it is inappropriate for a person who isn't a psychologist to make that conclusion, that just because transgender people are not a majority, that it is a disorder. This is a minority-based bias.
  • @Shamgurd- no matter what treatments, surgeries, or processes one endures, you cannot change your DNA/Genetic structure. Just because your brain is telling you that you are the opposite gender, that doesn't make it so. People who are anorexic see themselves as overweight, when in reality, they are thin. They just don't see it, which is why it's a mental illness. Why is it that when someone claims to be Superman, or talks to people who aren't there, or say they are reincarnated people, the immediate reaction is to have them put in a facility for mental illness, but when someone wants to change their gender because that's how they FEEL, we are supposed to embrace that? 
    Shamgurd
  • MayCaesar said:
    Obviously, since the phenomenon of transgenderism exists in the nature, it is a natural way of life.

    Seriously though, it could be either, both or neither. How to classify it depends on the perspective, but the essence of it does not depend on the classification.
    @MayCaesar sums up more plainly what I said sarcastically. @Shamgurd you draw a false dichotomy by insisting that either mental illness is somehow unnatural, or that those with mental illness can't live natural lives.

    It's possible for someone with a mental illness to live a "natural" life, just as it is possible for someone who is perfectly normal to live an exceptionally unnatural life. Wanting to be transgender and living a natural life are mutually exclusive.

    I think you are just projecting your conservative values onto everyone in a rather uncritical and uncouth way, just because someone doesn't want to live the way you want to doesn't make it "unnatural".
    smoothie
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Shamgurd ; LGBTQ is mental and spiritual sickness and unless the participant repents of sin and sincerely trusts in Jesus Christ as Lord for the mediation of sin, they will die in sin and ultimately lose their soul in Hell.

    1) Psychiatry Professor Transgenderism is mass hysteria similar to 1980s era junk science: http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/17/psychiatry-professor-transgenderism-mass-hysteria-similar-1980s-era-junk-science/

    2)Former Homosexual Rebuts the Lies of LGBTQ: http://https//www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-homosexual-to-keynote-conference-exposing-lgbt-lies

    3) Science finds 1,500 genetic differences between boys and girls, destroys ‘transgender’ arguments: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/researchers-find-over-1500-genes-that-make-men-and-women-different

    4) America’s First ‘Nonbinary’ Person. It Was All a Sham https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/03/10/i-was-americas-first-non-binary-person-it-was-all-a-sham/37852861

    5) Transgender is a mental disorder:   https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change









    ZeusAres42smoothie
  • @RickeyD Have you gone so far down the authoritarian rabbit hole that you don't even write your own posts anymore? Why copy-paste instead of actually making an argument?
    Plaffelvohfen
    why
  • @AhmedKhardani i guess i could have used a better term haha
  • @Happy_Killbot not what i was saying at all, of course they can live normal live but what they are doing to there bodies is not natural, which is what i a referring to which is obvious. i didn't saying anything on the topic of how they live there life .it feel like you are knit picking to make it seem i am attacking other than simply asking others opinions.i did not saying anything on the topic of how they live there life. simply is it a mental illness or are they actually suppose to be the other gender its a discussion of belief and most importantly science.
  • @RickeyD as a christian i do agree with you and thank you for stating some sources but this was a discussion of is it a mental illness, other than that i suggest you try a different form of being aware of God and his grace rather than the wraith of him. kind of the old saying ''you catch more flies with honey rather than with vinegar'' 
    Happy_Killbotsmoothie
  • @smoothie i assume he was just stating some sources on the topic
  • @Shamgurd I don't see anything not natural about that.

    Is it unnatural for someone or an animal to pick up a stick and dig in the ground to get roots to eat?

    This is a form of modification, you are adapting your environment to meet your needs and desires. Like it or hate it, your body is part of the environment, so modifying it is a perfectly natural thing, even if you are doing it through direct and intentional means rather than through long, natural processes. In fact, I will even take it a step farther and say that it is the next stage of life, the pinnacle of capability is to be able to modify not just your software ( what you know ) but also your hardware ( what you are ) In this sense, being transgender is not just natural, but an important first step in the ascension of any being.

    From this perspective, it is the lot of us that have a mental illness, and not those who desire to be the opposite sex.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Shamgurd I encourage you to read Rickey's post history, you will know what I mean. No matter how many times anybody refutes or disproves his arguments he regurgitates them right back the next time. 90% of his posts are copy pasting from his website or rewording the same things over and over and over again

    His first sentence is probably the 20th alteration of his original post...
    why
  • @smoothie i see what you mean
  • @Happy_Killbot so how does switching our sex help us adapt? it actually back tracks. 1 of the biggest things about gender is pro creation and with transgenders that gets taken away. so its hard to see how its helps us in anyway

    changing your gender in a way is harm to the body, you are taking a working body part and switching it with a replica of a different body part except it now doesn't work in either way, it has as much use as a clay model

    and yes it is natural for us to get roots and plants out of the ground and eat them just because you describe it in a bizarre way does not change the fact that those roots and plants are edible and natural to eat
  • @Shamgurd Overpopulation, assumed ownership of one's own body, and technology.

    That's all I have to say.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot but do we have a overpopulation problem right now?

    why do you have to ruin a body part to know you have ownership over your body?

    i agree someone who lost an arm that got a new arm,leg,kidney,or any organ yes, that is adapting,necessary, and is great for our technology but, why would we want technology that removes a working body part and replaces it with a non working body part? that is a waste of time,funds,and workers. Once again it isnt helping anything it is only back tracking
  • @Shamgurd We sort of have an overpopulation problem, although if you look at the details, things like women's rights and smaller families mostly control things, which is good and doesn't exactly counter my statement, because all it means is that having kids and starting families is no longer necessary for our species survival.

    So if you have a perfectly good tumor growing off of your skin, why should you have to remove it to know you have ownership of your body? You are going to have to try harder than that if you want to trap me, its not about proving you have ownership, it's about being who you want to be.

    If we had the technology to make the sex organs functioning, which I will speculate will be possible within the next 20-30 years given advances in 3-D organ printing and stem cell technology, do you think that transsexuals who could afford the procedure would change out their organs this way? It's only a problem of a lack of technology that we can not do this right now.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot well saying it isn't necessary for survival is a little ridiculous dont you think? if we have enough food for every one for a year do we just stop making it? death rates are going up so population is going down 

    a tumor is much different than genitals, one is useful one is worthless. one could if not already is cause harm one is not, one is suppose to be there, one is not. I could go all day but ill stop there. i get being who you wanna be but i have seen reports of people identifying as wolves should we just take them limb by limb and make them a wolf? granted that is a drastic scenario but sadly a real one. But if its who they want to be. Should we waste that much money,time,resources, and workers on something that point less. No we shouldn't because it helps us in no way we shouldn't waste that much of something because some one FEELS like they are a different gender or an animal or the worst one iv heard they identified as disabled and wanted doctors to paralyze them
    its a if you agree with 1 you agree with all and surely you don't think we should paralyze someone because they FEEL like they are suppose to 

    so many people will die from bad surgeons and lack of resources and lots of money thrown down the whole just for in 20-30 years we can recreate something we already have? how does that not sound just ridiculous to you? all because they FEEL they wanna be a different gender
     
  • @Shamgurd Frst off, death rates are only high right now because the baby boomer generation is dying. Compared to most of human history, they are extraordinarily low. The population (at least in the US) continues to rise, this is faulty logic on your behalf.

    Perhaps a more accurate analogy would be if humans no longer required food, would we stop making it?

    genitals are only useful if you want to have kids. Otherwise, they are pretty useless.

    Who gives you the right to say if I want my tumor or not? Maybe I think it is supposed to be there, and in fact there are many religions that take exactly this view towards medicine. Are you to just ignore their "do not resuscitate" desire?

    We wouldn't be wasting our time, money, or resource on turning someone into a wolf if that's what they want, in a capitalist society such as ours, they would be expected to provide the money in exchange for the time and resources. If that is what they want who are we to judge?

    If you want the surgery, then you assume the risk. It's not like we would be forcing people to get it, but if they desired it then they will have to accept the consequences should things go awry.

    Every year Americans spend $62.75 billion on their pets. What tangible benefit to society does this have? All because they FEEL that their pets deserve this type of treatment? I think this is ridiculous, but I'm not about to suggest we drop everything and form an autocratic fascist dictatorship just to stop it.

    At the end of the day, if someone wants that, they should be allowed to do it, because it's a free country.

    Image result for too many piercings
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot so right off the bat you say death rates are high because.... then tell me i have faulty logic because they are low? not sure how that works but ok

    no that isn't a better analogy because you said ''having kids and starting families is no longer necessary for our species survival'' not that it isn't required because if stop it will be required 1 day just like if we stop making food it will be required one day so my analogy was correct

    some that is capable of creating a life, i wouldn't toss that a way as ''useless''

    fine keep the tumor we don't have to use resources,funds, or doctors to take it. it isn't a waste of anything for you to keep it, have fun with your tumor

    false it would not be just them i'm pretty sure tax payers money would get thrown in there as well, and i for 1 am not paying for that shitXD

    does'nt matter if they want it or not still a waste of resources

    feeling a living creature deserves respect is NOT the same as them feeling they need to change something drastic on there body cause they FEEL like it. it is a living thing it NEEDS food and water, NEEDS love and support, NEEDS some one to take care of it. a guy doesn't need to have vagina instead and a women doesn't need a penis they want it

    sure its a free country but dont waste these rescourses that could go towards something useful 



  • @Shamgurd I would say you are grasping at straw, but re-reading what I wrote I was a little unclear and I apologize for that, so allow me to clarify.

    So when I say that death rates are low, what I mean is in human history. During the height of the roman empire, if you lived to 30 it was a miracle but today most people live into their 80's. They are only high relative to a decade ago, when global death rates were at an all-time low.

    As for the analogy, what I mean is that not everyone has to have kids to continue the species, i.e. some people can decide not to have kids if they don't want to. Compare this to even just 100 years ago, and it should become obvious because the average kids per family was around 4, but only 2.5 survived, today it is about 2 and both will survive. The point is we don't need everyone to have kids to ward off extinction at the moment.

    The point with the tumor is just that if I want to keep it, that is my choice. If I want to get rid of it, that is also my choice and you won't bat an eye to that, but for some reason when it is your genitals that are being changed, it's a mental illness.

    I don't know how taxpayers would end up paying for it, on account of it is a voluntary surgery, so no funds are currently available for this, and most insurances won't cover it either.

    How can we say that anything is a waste of resources if the resources being spent don't belong to us?

    If you were a transsexual, then you would be completely uncomfortable in your own body. If we were really so concerned with doing what is useful, we would cull all pets so that they are not a drain on resources, especially since they really don't have much of a purpose.

    There are two deeper problems here that need addressed:

    The first is the assumption that everyone's personal values ought to be the same as yours. If left alone as a belief, this isn't a problem. Once it turns into action though, we are no longer free citizens.

    The second is your discomfort with those that are different from yourself. If you can't accept people for who they are based on what they are, that is a problem. This implies that you will not give them a chance based on snap judgments and inherent bias.

    To drive this point home, I have only ever met one person who was trans, and they raped one of my co-workers. I do not trust and have a very negative opinion of this individual. Does this mean I hate all people who are trans? No, an extrapolation like that would be ridiculous. Same is the assumption that all trans people are mental ill, even though statistically someone who is trans is more likely to have a mental illness. In other words, reserving judgment instead of stereotyping is always more correct when dealing with individuals.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot i would like to know what time period you are comparing to if you are comparing medieval times to now that has literally 0 merit 

    i understand your analogy (btw thank you for clearing up) but just because not everyone needs to have kids does not justify a surgery to cut off a working body party for nothing but a non functioning literal worthless recreation 

    because it isn't simply ''i just wanna change my genitals'' its never just that, in conversation it just that but that's to better the point. if people would say ''ya i just wanna change my genitals'' sure I'm going to be like, ''what the hell.', but there is no arrangement there they said i wanna do it for the sake that i wanna do it, But no its always ''i was born a girl'' and ''science was wrong and so was God'' we you start saying you were SUPPOSE to be a girl and science and/or DNA was wrong that's when in falls into mental illness category

    Um what do you mean animals ''really don't have much purpose''? i'm assuming we are talking about cats and dogs. Starting with dogs, Dogs are useful as guard dogs , for children, people who live alone,single parents the elderly, etc. also used for hunt the animal by its self or just simply help the hunter retrieve it depend on breed, also used for herding dogs to help lead and herd any animals on a ranch that farmers need help with. There are guide dogs for the disabled from blind people all the way to emotional support(granted some abuse emotional support animals but some out there actually need them) and last but definitely not least police dog police and S.W.A.T dogs either to do something little like chase down a shop lifter or something as big as sniff out a where a bomb is in an airport. Some can also sniff out diseases on humans , not to mention illegal drugs

    Dogs are the expensive ones you will spend around 139.80 on a dog each month, Cats are pretty low maintenance, they literally clean themselves almost 100% clean so that saves water and money on soap, for people in normal house it keeps insects and mice out of the house. For people on farms they keep snakes,rats,scorpions,other harmful insects and  reptiles. Essentially protecting the house/farm so they are also for protection. They are also a lot more economically useful pertaining to the things they use to make there food.Also emotional support just like the dogs so yes these common house pets are a ton of help with everyday problem to drastic measures not to mention the loyalty you will get out of both

    but once again i am not saying it should be outlawed by any means i'm just saying it isn't logical nor necessary for us to peruse this study or practice. The money this person is using to ruin a body part could be used to attack a serious problem in america . Female to male could be over $50,000. Do you know how many people could be fed? That could also go to cancer studies or aids or something as simple as help homeless shelters, God knows we have too many homeless just in Las Vegas alone.

    if you are talking about day to day life that is not a problem granted i personal would not do this but if someone didn't wanna be friends with someone  because they went against there religion or did something they didn't like or if they just don't like that persons hair that is 100% okay. Something my generation (gen z) needs to learn is you aren't suppose to be friends with everyone. Now if you are talking about job wise then yes that is wrong but that just simply isn't a problem in this society 

    taking your opinion off of one person and pushing to the hole group is wrong and bigoted, saying that people that have a extra chromosome have down syndrome that is just simply science. No, those 2 sentences have nothing to do with each other at all so i'm not sure how you thought that would ''drive the point home'' like i said the transgenders that say ''i just simply wish to be the other gender'' that's a bit odd but okay you do you, But when you are arguing with science,DNA,and sometime God that they were wrong are your feelings are right, that is when it because a mental illness. I refuse to go against any of those 3 because this individuals feels say they know more and i don't see how anyone else could either
  • @Shamgurd I don't see why comparing now to ancient cultures would have zero relevancy, when it show a clear progress in term of life expectancy, and definitively refutes your claim that death rates are rising, of course this doesn't matter because average life expectancy is up from just 100 or even 30 years ago.

    All I have to ask is: Are you circumcised?

    To say that science suggests that being transgender isn't a thing is a laughable misrepresentation of science, because science has made it very clear that our assumption that there is only man and woman is wrong, because DNA is messy and mistakes happen. Also, gender identity comes from the mind, not the body, so disconnection between the two is not only possible, but impossible for it not to happen.

    The genitals and the brain do not form at the same time during pregnancy, so one thing which can cause someone to become trans is just hormone imbalances during the fetal development, making the brain think it is supposed to be the opposite gender.

    Keep god out of this. Unless you have concrete irrefutable evidence that both one exists, and if it does then it did not create trans people, don't mention it again.

    Most people's dogs are not guard dogs, or SWAT dogs, or drug sniffers, or hunters, or have any concrete usefulness (except maybe meeting people) they are lap dogs, who stay at home and their owner got because they wanted a dumb but loyal companion to make them feel superior. I don't think the pets being useless is really relevant here, my point was about sunken costs and people paying ridiculous sums of money on things that have no tangible benefit, but I think the point has been lost now.

    What people want to do with their money is none of anyone else's business. Look at all the dumb, useless things the mega rich spend their dollars on. If you run the numbers, it isn't that far off what people pay for their pets anyways. There are about 1.4 million trans people in the US, if each surgery costs $50,000 each, we are looking at around $70 billion. When you consider that we waste so much more money on so many things that serve no purpose. I mean, we spend $465 billion on holidays, with about $75 billion being just on holiday decorations. That should put things into perspective, the cost is about the same as holiday decorations, something that is much, much, much, less useful than gender reassignment surgery.

    Think about how many people we could feed if we just gave up holiday decorations! Or cancer studies, or AIDS, or homeless shelters, I think you get the point.

    Being transgender doesn't go against science, it isn't determined by DNA, and I have already made my point about whichever deity you subscribe to.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • because those are 2 completely different times. If we can do that then lets just compare the tolerance for the LGBTQ from medieval and to know, Then we have done great! instead of all theses protests, Shouldn't we just be happy with what we have done? No, just because something is better than it was literally 1000 years ago even if it was 5 years ago we should still strive for better. If you compared it to the late 90's, sure. ill kinda hop on board with that argument.

    it is not wrong, your gender is not made from your mind is is made with the genitals that you have. Its literally that simply, penis=male vagina=female. How that got mixed up in the past 10-20 year i have no clue. What i was taught well in a early age by school systems and early work is the world doesn't care about your feelings. My generation missed that memo but just cause you feel different does make it true. You can talk to your friends about or family but the world just simply doesn't care nor do they need/have to.

    we do not come out of the womb thinking we are a gender or ''what gender am i'' we are mammals, basically animals, If we were not taught boys do this and girls do that and everything we would only see our genitals are pro creation, That is it, There isnt a lion out there crying freaking out because it doesn't know if he is a guy or not. Because they don't see it like that. No one is going to argue that breasts main purpose is to feed infants, but when it comes to those genitals are to make infants every one loses it. Other than using the restroom they are for baby making

    well considering this is the first time i even said God and it wasn't even in an important part, just stating my belief and others, considering its a debate on opinions and i did not use God as a statement there is 0 problem with me saying what i said, If i would have said ''God would not approve'' or ''find in the bible where it okay'' then it brings a problem. If it is against what you believe then it helps my point the world doesn't care about your feelings

    i do agree we have gone down a tunnel haha but in my opinion, yes we do disagree but this has been a very fun debate (since we covered so many things) only thing i disagree with in this statement is dogs are like baby and children they are capable of being intelligent but it is what you teach them, granted i was young and didnt teach my dog much he is smart and i see him as a friend rather than something i am over and can control, But that is also going away from the topic haha

    You know what i get that, so on the money side of these as long as they are funding it, okay i agree on that part

    it is up to DNA and genitals, they do say what gender you are. Here is my point, just because you want/feel you should be the other gender does not mean you are suppose to, i would like wings and to be 6ft 3 does not mean i am suppose to. once again the world doesn't care about your feelings or your statement just like mine
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @Shamgurd If we should always be striving for better, then why not strive for a better world and more tolerant society that accepts transsexuals?

    "it is not wrong, your gender is not made from your mind is is made with the genitals that you have. Its literally that simply, penis=male vagina=female"

    That statement is false according to hard science. Gender comes in part from the brain, and a mismatch between gender and sex leads to gender dysphoria. This mismatch which occurs during pregnancy is the cause of transexuality.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094885

    It has nothing to do with people being raised into a certain preference and belief, although I will admit that there are people who probably pretend just for attention. This does not however, excuse everyone from the reality of gender dysphoria.

    "well considering this is the first time i even said God and it wasn't even in an important part, just stating my belief and others, considering its a debate on opinions and i did not use God as a statement there is 0 problem with me saying what i said, If i would have said ''God would not approve'' or ''find in the bible where it okay'' then it brings a problem. If it is against what you believe then it helps my point the world doesn't care about your feelings"

    Sounds like your feelings don't care about the facts. However, using "god did this" or "god did that" is completely unjustified, especially in this case because there is no repeatably. You can't just walk up to god and ask "So god, how do you feel about trans people?" Then there is the problem of other gods, suppose a different one contradicts yours, how can we say which if any is right? Maybe god does approve of trans people. Maybe it doesn't. We can't know, so I consider it a moot point.

    I have to reiterate this, but I'm going to do it with another analogy so lets not get carried away with this one. Let's say a scientist discovers a puppy that was always in extreme pain, which stemmed from a neuronal response from brain rejecting the body. Thus the pain is hard-wired into the poor animal. Other than this, the puppy is perfectly functioning, and could theoretically grow up to have a normal life, despite it's constant suffering. The scientist hypothesizes, that with a surgery the pain can be alleviated.

    Who should be deciding what should be done with the puppy, assuming only the scientist can possibly alleviate the puppies pain?

    We could say that the puppy was born to just always be in pain, and that nothing should be done about it because it's the way things should be.

    Alternatively, the puppy should be able to choose what it wants and, assuming that there is a way to do it and there is motivation for the scientist. (perhaps knowledge gained is valuable to him)

    This is obviously a direct metaphor for being trans. You are born with an innate feeling that you should be the opposite gender, it isn't learned and it does have real detectable consequences in the brain, not the genitals.

    There are two major problems with the "facts don't care about your feelings" mantra of some conservatives (and liberals, just not openly)

    The first is that it ignores values. It is a fact that if you shoot someone enough times, they will die. It is a fallacy to say "because shooting someone will kill them, it is a fact that we shouldn't shoot anyone". If you are a serial killer and you value killing people, then the fallacy becomes "because shooting people will kill them, we should shoot people"

    Facts only tell you what is true and what is false. They do not tell you what you ought to do.

    The second problem is that the feelings we are talking about is not the physical sensation, but rather refers to emotional state. What it means is "I feel that x is true, so it must be" god, gods, or other mythical beings are typical examples of this. You feel god is true, so it must be. When we confuse the two types of feelings, we can come to some bizarre conclusions, for example place your had in lukewarm water after it has been in cold water, and it feels hot, but the temperature hasn't changed, you might be tempted to say that the "facts don't care about your feelings" but the physical sensation that person experienced was real, and this is in itself a fact which can't be ignored.

    In the context of transsexuals, for you to say for a fact that they feel like they are the opposite gender, means nothing to the question of should they get reasignment surgery if they want it and can afford it. It also says nothing about how we should treat them. If we had the technology to give someone wings and make them 6'2" then they should be allowed to get that if they want and can afford it. Being a transsexual is a physical sensation, which may or may not be coupled with emotion. Thus, it doesn't really fall under 
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • the tolerance for them is pretty high, do you remember that a transgender women was ''women of the year'' that's seems like the world is okay with them. Just as fine with them as any other group, crime against them isn't shooting threw the roof,they don't have problems getting jobs and they literally have scholarships for them. That's more than i get. Also trying to have our population die less is a lot different then being okay with some ones choice in what gender they are.

    i'm going to break it down how i would break it down for a 15 year old that giggled at ''sex'' being on a doctors note what is sex? intercourse between a MALE and FEMALE'' the man has a penis and the female has a vagina this is why we call it the sex of a person.

     That article said its programmed in our brain from the testosterone and estrogen that we produce.....so in other words the body tells us what gender it is not me tell the body i feel like this, the body knows what it is. If evolution or our creator what ever who ever believes in. made our body's learn off the human mind that is not a good strategy for humans to evolve, anything humans touch either fails or break eventually so that would be just horrible

    Sounds like your feelings don't care about the facts
    when did i say my feelings?

    However, using "god did this" or "god did that" is completely unjustified
    i agree, glad i never said anything like that

     how can we say which if any is right?
    there isn't that's why i would never make a point with God 

    Maybe god does approve of trans people
    He doesn't

    We can't know, so I consider it a moot point.
    it is a moot point, that's why i never used it

    so that was a wasted paragraph. if i did say it please quote it other wise please stop pulling topics out of thin air

    that analogy seems very strange and not heard of, before we even touch on that i would like you to find a report on it so we aren't comparing something that is happening to something that has never happened 
     
    also transgenders are not in pain if they don't get the surgery, and also i think with the dog you described a mental illness


    okay so no it is not a fact they are suppose to be a female instead of male or the other way around, just like your argument with God there is 0 proof there are ''suppose'' to be transgender. However we have plenty proof of why they are suppose to stay male or female. so that's your own argument 

    no it is 100% ''i feel like i'm suppose to be a women i can quote probably hundreds of transgenders saying ''i don't feel male or female''

    once again it is feelings it doesn't hurt there body actually the thing about it that can hurt the body is going threw with it. I agree if they pay for it and want it sure but just because they afford it doesn't mean they should nor does it mean they are suppose to nor that it is good for them.I think i want to drink at parties and smoke cigarettes but the head ache the next morning and the lung cancer in the future will tell me other wise. 
  • @Happy_Killbot sorry about the late replies, i do this at work while i'm not busy
  • @Shamgurd Trans-gendered persons are bared from military service, they are more likely to develop mental trauma as a result of childhood bullying, and they have higher than average rates of suicide and violence against them, including rape and murder.

    "i'm going to break it down how i would break it down for a 15 year old that giggled at ''sex'' being on a doctors note what is sex? intercourse between a MALE and FEMALE'' the man has a penis and the female has a vagina this is why we call it the sex of a person."

    No, that is sexual intercourse. I hate to make a semantic argument here, but sex also refers to the dimorphic nature of most complex life, having two genders male and female, e.g "the sex of all egg laying chickens is female"

    I think a quick refresher on how evolution works is in order. First off, you don't have to believe in evolution because we can and have observed it happen in human lifetimes, so if you chose you could watch it happen. There is no end goal or absolute state towards which things evolve, stuff just happens randomly and the surviving member most equipped to survive and reproduce pass on their genes. Trans people are very low in number, and this is at least partially because evolution has driven them out, simply because they do not reproduce. This can not however, completely remove them so long as the genes that cause it to happen are present and can be expressed. In the case of a child becoming transgender, the genes are not typically expressed on the individual, but rather on the mother, which complicates things a bit because it means that the problems expressed are only apparent after birth.

    "But when you are arguing with science,DNA,and sometime God that they were wrong are your feelings are right, that is when it because a mental illness."

    This is where you imply that god did something, specifically that something would be disapprove of trans people. You do this two other times in that same paragraph. The point of that paragraph was to point out that no one know what god, gods, or other mythical beings said or didn't say, so I could just as easily claim that you have it backwards, and in fact god said trans people are sacred and should be honored, and that would be just as valid a statement.

    The puppy analogy is made up, we don't need to get caught up in the details. You can replace everything with abstract symbols and the logic stays the same.

    Now I can not know the subjective experience of another, so if they say they are a certain way, we will just have to take their word for it. For all you know, it is excruciating and uncomfortable. 

    "However we have plenty proof of why they are suppose to stay male or female."

    No, no we don't. Not only is there no proof of this, it is fundamentally impossible for anyone to say what is or is not supposed to be anything. Why? because it isn't a fact that anything is supposed to be anything else, it is a value. This is what I am talking about when I say that the "fact's don't care about your feelings" garb is pseudo-intellectual nonsense.

    You "feel" that everyone should be the gender they were assigned at birth.
    Transgenders "feel" that they should not be the gender they were assigned at birth.
    Facts can neither prove nor disprove either position.
    It is a decision for each individual to make, and not mine, yours, their parents, community, state, or governments.

    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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