How does me having the right to live for Jesus, relate to vaccines?

Happy_Killbot

The relation is belief. In the case of anti-vaxxers, they are a threat to life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKcAGWLcNKM

The point is that while it is okay to respect other's beliefs, when they don't conform to reality their can be dangerous consequences.

Religions are likewise founded on belief rather than truth, so they have the potential to contain dangerous misinformation, although most modern religions have become mostly benign.

YeshuaBought

Happy_Killbot said:

The relation is belief. In the case of anti-vaxxers, they are a threat to life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKcAGWLcNKM

The point is that while it is okay to respect other's beliefs, when they don't conform to reality their can be dangerous consequences.

Religions are likewise founded on belief rather than truth, so they have the potential to contain dangerous misinformation, although most modern religions have become mostly benign.

No it isn't. i did not say anything about vaccines, so it is dishonest tp ask me about them, when I was talking about Jesus.

MayCaesar

Nobody should be able to force you into letting people stick needles in your body, obviously - but similarly, nobody should be able to prevent you from having it done should you desire it. I fail to see what this has to do with religion; it is just the basic bodily autonomy principle.

YeshuaBought

MayCaesar said:

Nobody should be able to force you into letting people stick needles in your body, obviously - but similarly, nobody should be able to prevent you from having it done should you desire it. I fail to see what this has to do with religion; it is just the basic bodily autonomy principle.

I agree. i am equally confused. I don't bear anyone ill will, but prefer to stay on topic, and avoid the strawman fallacy. i am not accusing you, but I am for the other person.

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar Herd immunity.

Some people, for real medical reasons can not get vaccinated. When other parents decide to not get their children vaccinated, it puts these children at risk. However, when enough people are vaccinated it makes it impossible for diseases to spread because there are not enough potential hosts for the infection. This is called herd immunity. By allowing people to go without being vaccinated, we potentially open up people to harm through accidental exposure to pathogens.

It is okay for someone to have beliefs, but the second those beliefs infringe on my rights, they are no longer acceptable.

What does this have to do with religion?

They are both fundamentally a rebellion against reality. Anti-vaxxers think that vaccines will give their children autism or are somehow a government conspiracy. Religions believe they hold secret knowledge and will save you from some horrible consequence they just made up.

The connection I am drawing has to do with the underlying psychology and mechanism that leads to these beliefs.

Anti-vaxxers are painted as , gullible, and deranged.

I have a very simple explanation for why they believe what they do- their children are afraid of needles.

The parent then acts to protect the child from the fear, by removing them from the harm.

They then use the pseudo-science and various blogs and celebrities to justify their decision.

The end result is that the life of the child is put in danger, by the vary same actions taken to prevent the child's suffering.

YeshuaBought

Happy_Killbot said:

@MayCaesar Herd immunity.

Some people, for real medical reasons can not get vaccinated. When other parents decide to not get their children vaccinated, it puts these children at risk. However, when enough people are vaccinated it makes it impossible for diseases to spread because there are not enough potential hosts for the infection. This is called herd immunity. By allowing people to go without being vaccinated, we potentially open up people to harm through accidental exposure to pathogens.

It is okay for someone to have beliefs, but the second those beliefs infringe on my rights, they are no longer acceptable.

What does this have to do with religion?

They are both fundamentally a rebellion against reality. Anti-vaxxers think that vaccines will give their children autism or are somehow a government conspiracy. Religions believe they hold secret knowledge and will save you from some horrible consequence they just made up.

The connection I am drawing has to do with the underlying psychology and mechanism that leads to these beliefs.

Anti-vaxxers are painted as , gullible, and deranged.

I have a very simple explanation for why they believe what they do- their children are afraid of needles.

The parent then acts to protect the child from the fear, by removing them from the harm.

They then use the pseudo-science and various blogs and celebrities to justify their decision.

The end result is that the life of the child is put in danger, by the vary same actions taken to prevent the child's suffering.

I never said I have the right to infringe on your rights, so don't be so dishonest. I never said anything about political issues, vaccines or otherwise, and on a religious debate, i never will. Have a nice day.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

The fact that many people take a stance against vaccinations on religious grounds does not make this matter related to religion in any way. Think about it this way: is the statement "2+2=4" related to religion? Does your answer change if someone says, "2+2=4, because Jesus says so in the Bible"? (I do not know if he actually does, but for the sake of argument let us assume he does.) Various stances can be defended on many different grounds, but what they are intrinsically related to is independent of those grounds.

Also, beliefs never infringe on your rights, as they exist only in the heads of the people having them. People exercising these beliefs may infringe on your rights, although I fail to see how this is the case here, as not getting a vaccine is an absence of action. Your rights cannot require others to take active action; only privileges can. The word "right" refers to something you can do without being persecuted by others in a public space.

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar This whole conversation is out of context.

I was talking about the nature of believing, not the actual beliefs.

Belief is about grief, that was my point.

YeshuaBought

Happy_Killbot said:

@MayCaesar This whole conversation is out of context.

I was talking about the nature of believing, not the actual beliefs.

Belief is about grief, that was my point.

No it isn't. You put words in my mouth, and that is very dishonest. I will never agree with on this, so why bother? I am done.

Happy_Killbot

@YeshuaBought I never put words in your mouth, I asked a question!

YeshuaBought

Happy_Killbot said:

@YeshuaBought I never put words in your mouth, I asked a question!

Yes you did put words in my mouth, by asking me an off topic question. You are very dishonest.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

This seems like a swiping generalisation. I do not think every belief comes from grief. Beliefs are very likely to come from joy every now and then as well; for example, when you love someone deeply, you generally believe most of the things they say, even if you have no evidence to support their claims. If your wife who you love passionately tells you that last night she was at a party event organised by her employer, you usually will take her word for it, instead of going out of your way to actually verify that, knowing that she could, in principle, be lying to you. Belief is a part of human nature, and we would not go far as species if we constantly doubted everything and needed to verify everything. Sometimes it makes sense to employ a certain belief, knowing the negative consequences of doing otherwise.

Of course, belief can also come from grief as defensive mechanism. This could be the case with most religious followers, although I am not sure if this is the case.

Problem, in my view, is not belief in itself; it is mistaking belief for knowledge. It is okay to believe someone or something, as long as you understand the implications of it. It is okay to believe something which you think has a high probability of being true, but you probably do not want to stake your life on it in case you have direct evidence of it being true. You do not want to fly a jet built based on beliefs; you want to fly a jet built based on solid knowledge of aerodynamics, engineering and other related disciplines.

Dee

@MayCaesar

**** it is mistaking belief for knowledge

Good piece *** it is mistaking belief for knowledge*** have you ever had to shed a long held belief?  How did it impact on you if the answer is yes? 

MayCaesar

@Dee

Many-many times. For one, as I mentioned in another thread, I used to think of traditions as irrelevant and useless, but a few deep conversations with extremely intelligent people, followed by a lot of contemplation and attempts to write fiction, made me see value in them - I still prefer to not cling to traditions or rationalise them, but I see them as somewhat necessary as a stabilising factor in a society, as well as something adding a lot of flavor to human interactions.

I would not say that shedding long-held beliefs is traumatic. There is even something enjoyable about this process, as every time you do so, you (or, at least, you believe you do) become closer to understanding the world, and new opportunities reveal themselves to you.
It can be traumatic, however, if beliefs you have to shed are widespread in your social circle. Depending on how open-minded people in that circle are, it can be difficult to find someone to share your concerns with, and there is always a risk of being ostracised by members of that circle. I think it might be the main reason so many people are afraid of questioning their beliefs, which is why you find entire nations largely holding some belief people in other nations have rejected a long time ago. Having entire nation you live in disapprove of your beliefs can be a scary experience, and you have to have a strong character to not break under pressure.

Have you had an experience where you lost some belief and that led you to being ostracised by your peers, making you question your choice?

YeshuaBought

Dee said:

@MayCaesar

**** it is mistaking belief for knowledge

Good piece *** it is mistaking belief for knowledge*** have you ever had to shed a long held belief?  How did it impact on you if the answer is yes? 

After what you said on that other debate, you forfeit the right to post on any of my content. You're done here. Leave.

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar What I mean is that as you said, "belief can also come from grief as defensive mechanism."

Religious beliefs in particular all follow this pattern of magical thinking, even things that are not clearly examples of religious thinking such as anti-vaxxers.

What is very hard to convey is that in the mind of the believer makes no distinction between belief and truth, which is why so many believers just blatantly describe their religion as the "truth". It is so much deeper than just mistaking one for the other, in many instances it is a deliberate choice to do so.

Someone who is a follower of a religion might do so because of the tradition or social aspects, but ultimately takes a metaphysical interpretation of the word or teachings, to them death is permanent but it doesn't matter much.A theist is something separate from just a believer or follower of religion, to be a true believer you must sever all connection to reality, because it is too dark.

The theist is unable to comprehend or except a world which is devoid of absolute purpose or where death is permanent. The observation or consideration of such is so horrifying that they will create an elaborate framework of ideas around it to justify or cover up this reality. The "Joy of knowing god" is only in relation to the existential dread that the theist can not overcome, due either to weak constitution or anxiety.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

Well, there are many different religious beliefs coming into every religion, with many facets to them. Someone, in principle, could dislike the idea of afterlife, but accept it because they like the rest of the religion.
One could believe in the afterlife for many different reasons. It could make most sense to them logically; it could make most sense to them philosophically; they might like practical implications of this belief (I knew a guy who, from what I figured, liked the idea of afterlife, because it helped him rationalise his desire to leave a legacy, which from purely logical standpoint he could not justify)... I think it wrong to paint all religious people with one brush like this. Humans are complex creatures, and we can be driven by very different motivations and still arrive at the same conclusion.

Personally, I do not even see the idea of the afterlife that appealing. I think many people are afraid of permanent death because they have not properly processed it. We are naturally afraid of death (and for a good reason; our most basic survival instinct makes us resist death almost in every imaginable way), but if you think about it properly, you will find that there is nothing scary about it. You die, your mind is gone, and that is it: no pain, no suffering, nothing, you just disappear - and do not even have the ability to miss your life any more, because you are no longer there. It is a perfectly neutral experience and is not something to be afraid of.
This, of course, does not mean that you should just decide that dying is fine and, say, jump off a plane to enjoy the view before your death (although, if one was to state that this is a logical thing to do, then I would not be able to make a solid logical counter-argument and would have to appeal to emotion instead). It is reasonable to try to live for as long as you possibly can. But once you are dead, you are dead. There is nothing really dark about it; it is a neutral thing.

Dee

@YeshuaBought

**** After what you said on that other debate, you forfeit the right to post on any of my content. You're done here. Leave

No I don’t ,I will post as I wish here. I called you out on the other debate over your persistent “poor me wailing “ and assorted nonsense ......get over it

YeshuaBought

Dee said:

@YeshuaBought

**** After what you said on that other debate, you forfeit the right to post on any of my content. You're done here. Leave

No I don’t ,I will post as I wish here. I called you out on the other debate over your persistent “poor me wailing “ and assorted nonsense ......get over it

Wonderful! Thank you, for sharing your amazing thoughts, and have a nice day!

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar In your first paragraph, you criticize sweeping generalization and the idea that all humans arrive at the same conclusions for the same reason, then in your second paragraph you make a sweeping generalization about humans when you say we are naturally afraid of death.

There are two factors here that I think you have not considered, the first is that religions (the most successful anyways) try in many different ways to get people into their system of belief, the most notable are indoctrination from childhood, fear of death, implication of purpose and abstract meaning, community, tradition, and of course that carrot on the stick of eternal life. Despite human complexity, all of these factors combined are more likely to get someone in and more importantly, keep them in.

The second is that this lack of proper processing is exactly what I am talking about when I say that the theist is secretly grieving, but never getting past denial. To them, death can't be the end. Go back and read a lot of Rickey's arguments (or preaching, if you prefer) and you will see that he is absolutely terrified of the implications of a "death and that's it" or "no purpose and that's it" or "nothing happens for a reason and that's it". For whatever reason, he can't let go and except these possibilities, so for him and other theists like him, religion is a must.

Dee

@YeshuaBought

***** Wonderful! Thank you, for sharing your amazing thoughts, and have a nice day!

I aim to please and you’re most welcome , have a superb night ......Blessed are the cheese makers 

YeshuaBought

Dee said:

@YeshuaBought

***** Wonderful! Thank you, for sharing your amazing thoughts, and have a nice day!

I aim to please and you’re most welcome , have a superb night ......Blessed are the cheese makers 

True enough, thanks for getting back to me.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

Survival instinct is the most basic instinct absolutely any living species has; it is just a biological fact. It does not mean that every single member of every single species has it, but it is the general pattern.

Religions do not and cannot really try anything; humans following those religions can, however. People come to follow religions in many different ways, although obviously being influenced by the collective is the most common pathway there.

I do not think every single theist is mortally afraid of permanent death. There are billions theists on this planet, and thousands versions of various religions, some of which may not even have the concept of afterlife or reincarnation (although I personally am not familiar with such religions). I would say though that afterlife promise is a very effective selling point for a religion, for the reasons you mentioned.

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar If you can find any who would say that they 100% agree with some statement about an afterlife, who say they would be okay with oblivion, that would be news to me. However, I have yet to meet any.

Dee

@MayCaesar

Shedding some beliefs can be life transforming and indeed no trauma is involved in doing so. I remember as a child the “psychic “ Uri Geller was a worldwide sensation and regularly made front page news people of this internet generation may find it hard to believe that before the internet people could have impact such as this. Geller would do his thing and bend spoons and cutlery , copy drawings sealed in envelopes , cause objects to move etc , etc, his act was totally convincing as he was a marvelous showman , there was a huge surge worldwide in people going to classes learning how to develop psychic powers celebrities further fuelled the myth of Geller by telling tales of his wondrous doings , I like many believed the man was genuine, the thing that saved me was I had an interest in magic after getting a box of tricks as a Christmas gift this in turn got me so interested in the subject I joined a club and had access to meeting some brilliant magicians and soon learned the methods of Geller and others of his type , I must say I applaud the mans ingenuity at taking a couple of simple tricks and turning them into miracle class which proved the old adage “ it ain’t what you do it’s the way that you do it”

Geller is still alive and regularly goes to magicians conventions which is amusing as he always claimed he didn’t use trickery and knew nothing of such , I admired Geller in his time until he started selling boxed sets of “healing gems” and other such tripe and he started saying he had powers that could heal and help others this is totally unacceptable and it’s where I get annoyed as one should firmly state what they’re doing is purely entertainment . When I found out about Geller I became a lifelong skeptic regarding anyone that claims to be a psychic , healer , mystic guru , godman ,etc ,etc,..

Incidentally when Geller was tested they always got scientists to do the testing ,little realising scientists like every other human fall for magical deceptions as magic relies on several ancient tried and tested principles and fools everyone , the  only one qualified to trap people like Geller  are magicians who are versed in the act of deception.

Regards shedding a belief that was traumatic , becoming Atheist caused a lot of problems which did cause trauma in my case as you correctly  stated because such belief was  widespread, I used to keep quiet about my Atheism because the need to conform was so strong and I did question my choice more than once , a turning point was a priest who kept calling the congregation his “flock” which clicked in me and spurred me into thinking “ he compares us all with sheep and calls Jesus the good Shepard “ similar nonsense like this and a reading of the Bible finished the job.

When I accepted I was Atheist I totally changed where people used to giggle or look at me with pity (most annoying) I would fight my corner sometimes the results are most amusing only last week a group party of nice people ( born again) knocked on my door and proclaimed “ Jesus loves you “ I thanked them and asked could I ask one question and the leader said “ yes please do” I asked “ If I arrived at your front door unannounced and told you there is no god how would you feel “ he truthfully said he would be annoyed as he never asked for such a message or indeed the visit , in fairness to him he admitted that he was guilty of the same “crime” we parted on a handshake but no doubt he continues doing so 

Muslims who become Atheist are remarkably brave because the implications are catastrophic in a lot of cases and can lead to death and they know this but will not live a lie which to me is incredibly brave and commendable 

AlofRI

To your question, damned if I know.