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The Case For Abolishing Meat Consumption
in Philosophy

If we cannot kill or eat humans, as should be the case regarding social contracts, then the same principle must be applied to non-human sentient life in order to be objectively consistent.
I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
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  • RickeyDRickeyD 408 Pts
    edited January 31
    @Shadowtongue ; I disagree as does our Creator who provided the meat of animals, fish, for our consumption. Even Jesus ate fish as an example (Luke 24:41-43).

    "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."  Genesis 9:1-3 (NIV)



    Plaffelvohfen
  • @RickeyD
    And how do you justify your religion?
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @RickeyD
    And how do you justify your religion?
    Religious liberty is a human right, a government dictatorship is not.
  • @YeshuaBought
    What I'm asking is how he knows his religion is true, not questioning his right to belief.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @YeshuaBought
    What I'm asking is how he knows his religion is true, not questioning his right to belief.
    It is his business. 
    AmericanFurryBoy
  • @YeshuaBought
    What I'm asking is how he knows his religion is true, not questioning his right to belief.
    How do you know it's not true?
  • @YeshuaBought
    If his justification for killing and eating animals is based upon his religious doctrine,  then I must come to understand that his religion is valid in order for his claim to suffice as an argument for meat-eating.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @YeshuaBought
    If his justification for killing and eating animals is based upon his religious doctrine,  then I must come to understand that his religion is valid in order for his claim to suffice as an argument for meat-eating.
    He does not owe you an explaination, for his right to religious liberty.
    AmericanFurryBoy
  • @YeshuaBought
    How do I know that it is not true? On its face alone, I don't, but a  belief can only be justified when the facts of reality back it up.
    He does not owe me an explanation? Is this not a debate forum?
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @YeshuaBought
    How do I know that it is not true? On its face alone, I don't, but a  belief can only be justified when the facts of reality back it up.
    He does not owe me an explanation? Is this not a debate forum?
    People do not have to prove a right, to have a right. Rights are given by God, not government, so my statement stands.
  • @RickeyD ; I don't serve a "religion"...I serve the Living God, Jesus Christ.


  • @YeshuaBought
    You seem to not understand. I have no issue with his right to belief, for I wouldn't take that away from him. However, if you're debating an issue and use religion to try to fortify your position, you need to demonstrate in argumentation how the religion is true so as to give strength to your side of the debate.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @RickeyD
    Okay, so how have you come to understand that what you serve is real?
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @YeshuaBought
    You seem to not understand. I have no issue with his right to belief, for I wouldn't take that away from him. However, if you're debating an issue and use religion to try to fortify your position, you need to demonstrate in argumentation how the religion is true so as to give strength to your side of the debate.
    No he doesn't.
    AmericanFurryBoy
  • @YeshuaBought
    If people don't have to present their case for their arguments then why join a debate website? What have you come here for?
    smoothie
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @YeshuaBought
    I mean, it's true he's not bound by law to argue his position to me, but people voluntarily have joined this forum to debate their positions so it's only natural that if a voluntary member of this site willingly debates me, I will naturally put his positions to the test as I expect him to do back at me.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @Shadowtongue ; Twenty-seven-years-ago I was challenged concerning my faith and understanding of Scripture and God. I humbled myself and purchased a paraphrased copy of the Living Bible and began to read in the New Testament. That initial read convicted my heart and I pursued, with fervency, the Truth of Scripture in diligent study seeking the God of Scripture and my life was radically changed.

    I pursued deeper understanding and I believed what I read, I could not deny that Jesus Christ-Yeshua is exactly who He says He is and upon my belief and confession that Jesus is Lord I received the indwelling Holy Spirit. My life and my eyes were opened to God's Truth, God's Plan for my life in Time and Eternity. Over the next 27-years I have walked intimately with my Lord and I have grown deeper and deeper in love with my God and God the Holy Spirit has been faithful to me, to teach and tutor me in the ways of God the Father and God the Son and explain to me the purpose for origin, meaning, morality, destiny. I simply cannot deny what I know to be Truth; that is, Jesus Christ entered into the World some 2019-yrs ago to save sinners and He saved me from death in sin and death in Hell and He gave me a new life of purpose, understanding, peace, joy, knowledge, assurance, LOVE.




    Grafix
  • @RickeyD
    So, how is it that you've ascertained that this scripture is true? After all, delusional people exist and people have the ability to write fiction. 
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @Shadowtongue ; I know it to be true because I have studied and there exists no alternative to the written word of God explaining origin, meaning, morality, destiny which directly answers with logical consistency, empirical adequacy, experiential relevance. There is ONE God and ONE Mediator for sin, Jesus Christ. When the Holy Spirit entered my Life, there was no denying the accuracy, veracity, beauty, perfection of the Word of God, prophecy, eschatology, the Life of Messiah-Yeshua!  Because of the faithfulness of the Holy Spirit, I know that I know that I know...I cannot imagine life without knowing God and His love and faithfulness.






  • @RickeyD
    What is said in this scripture that grants it such validity to you? I need specific proofs for you to demonstrate to me.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @Shadowtongue ; The indwelling Holy Spirit is the One who "Seals" the deal. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit that provides the assurance, the knowledge, the wisdom, the understanding, the life-changing beauty that accompanies a relationship with God the Father by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. It is beyond words to know that your life is blessed and life in Eternity is assured as everything is good, right, beautiful, between yourself and the God of the Universe.


  • @Shadowtongue ; My wife is calling for supper. TTYL?
  • @RickeyD
    And how have you come to understand this holy spirit which is spoken of is true in reality?
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @RickeyD
    Reply whenever you want.
    RickeyD
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • RickeyDRickeyD 408 Pts
    edited February 1
    @Shadowtongue ; Explaining the power, joy, peace, love, of the indwelling Holy Spirit to someone who has not experienced Him is not possible...you must experience the Lord personally to know what I know. When God takes control of your life...well...it's like the time I was approximately half-way through my initial read of the Scriptures...I remember looking up from the text and asking, "Where has this been all my life?" Every question I've ever had about life and purpose and meaning...they were answered with beauty and clarity. I can tell you that the life subsequent to believing that Jesus is Lord is so radically different and superior to the life before having known my Lord that the comparison/contrast defies human language/explanation.

    If you desire to know what I know, your best first-step is to select a very readable version of the English translations...I suggest the NASB or NKJV or ESV and carefully read through the "Gospel of John" in the New Testament. John's Gospel totals 21-Chapters and you can read one-chapter-a-day for three-weeks or however you so decide to read this wonderful Book. I highly recommend that you ask God to send you His Spirit to open your eyes, mind, soul, to the deeper Truths of what you're reading and that you carefully and diligently pay attention to the words on the page or on the screen. Intermittently stop at the more difficult passages and ask God what He wants you to know...




  • @RickeyD
    What I want to ask you at this juncture is how you reason that this feeling of 'the Lord overcoming you' is in fact a divine happening and not the result of the mind playing tricks on itself. I can infer that the best explanation out of all technically possible explanations is that you're having false thought processes because there is plenty of understanding that the fallible mind, in league with emotions and deeper psychological issues, can often cause one to misunderstand things and even potentially engage in mental gymnastics of sorts to conjure false divine, religious revelations.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • The common defence of basic human rights is based on our consciousness, not sentience. Humans are the only conscious species we know, species that are not just aware of their emotions and feelings, but can actually process them intellectually and make sense of them. We do not just experience pain; we can think, "I am hurting, and that is bad". It is this negative aspect of pain that defines our stance on this matter; no other known species has this aspect, and while all species try to minimise the amount of pain, it is a purely mechanical reaction, a reflex. Humans experience pain on an entirely different level.

    This does not make it okay to hurt animals, of course, but it does imply that humans and other animals do not necessarily have to be treated equally.

    Regardless, the human rights principle says that we cannot kill humans, but it does not really say that we cannot eat human meat. In principle, it would be fine to eat meat of humans who are already dead, or who for some bizarre reason decide to willingly donate/sell their meat to others. Same goes with animals: killing animals may or may not be okay depending on your perspective, but eating them should be fine.
  • @Shadowtongue ; I know that what transpired in my life was initiated from the outside in.  I spent 31-yrs as a police officer...I investigated, I pursued, some of my assignments necessitated intuition, wisdom, aforethought, discernment...I know and understand that the change that was wrought in my soul was not some form of self-deception, mysticism, but God. Never in my life had I experienced such peace and assurance and understanding then and now...like Jesus said, it is being "born again" by the Spirit of God.

    You intuitively resort to explaining the supernatural by humanistic/naturalistic verbiage because you do not know God and you have no clue relevant to the Spirit because you are spiritually dead and the things of God the Father and the Son and the Spirit seem as foolishness  to you because you are a natural man, captured by the constraints of Time and you cannot see beyond your naturalism. The words I share are spiritual and unless you are willing to seek Truth in the Spirit, you will remain distanced from God and hope.

    God is a gentleman, He will not coerce or force Himself upon you. Unless you're willing to gird yourself with courage and step outside the bounds of naturalism and purse God with your whole heart, He will remain an enigma to you and you will die in your sins and you will die a second death in Hell, body and soul, without hope (John 8:24).


  • DeeDee 1491 Pts
    **** If we cannot kill or eat humans, as should be the case regarding social contracts, then the same principle must be applied to non-human sentient life in order to be objectively consistent.

    How should we treat animals? I think we will all acknowledge that most if not all are capable of experiencing extreme pain.

    Should the suffering of animals be included in any moral assessment on how we should behave? If not why not?
  • @MayCaesar ;

    Sure, we have a vastly more developed brain, but animals to some degree still experience life, pain, pleasure, sadness, so on and so forth. After all, this is why you deem it not okay to hurt animals, right? Also, how come it’s okay for us to kill animals but not hurt? Is injury a worse encroachment than death now? What about humans with brain damage and/or deformities. Can we kill and eat them since they don’t have the same degree of consciousness we normal people do?

    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @RickeyD

    How is it though that you know with certainty that this change in your being wasn’t self-deception? You say it’s so but I need you to show me how this is the case. For example, an ancient Roman would’ve professed that he felt the divine presence of the Roman gods, but his word and feelings of assuredness don’t make those claims automatically proven. They need to be justified by reality.

    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @Dee

    The answer lies in my original statement. If we protect human lives by order of social contract, which we definitely should, then there exists no reason to treat non-human sentient life differently. Now, we can’t treat non-human animals on the same legal basis as humans on all fronts since nature isn’t governable, but the original point still stands.

    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • I do not think meat consumption is evil. As we are the dominant species on this planet, I believe that eating meat for our consumption if only for our survival, is OK. I think that for it to be justified, though, you have to eat all or most of the animal. Less than 1% of the sturgeon fish is eaten (the eggs). 99% is wasted. I consider that to be morally wrong.
  • DeeDee 1491 Pts
    @Shadowtongue

    I haven’t disputed your original point I was just putting forward a question or two to the forum in general in hope of some interesting debate on the topic
  • @Dee
    I understand now. Was originally confused.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • DeeDee 1491 Pts
    @Shadowtongue

    It’s all good , it’s an excellent debate topic 
  • @xlJ_dolphin_473
    So if your argument is that if organism X is dominant, then it eating meat to survive is morally justifiable, then I am curious. If an aggressive alien race invaded our world and then became the new dominant life on Earth, is it morally justifiable for them to kill and eat us? How does dominance equate to moral justification? Additionally, how does eating more of something increase the morality of the killing? Would that mean that if a serial murderer eats almost all his victims he should get a lesser sentence than a serial murderer who didn't eat their victims?
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @Shadowtongue

    From their point of view, yes, it could be justifiable to kill and eat us. Our morals are ours, and their morals are theirs.

    Do you think it is moral to kill a wolf? You might say, "No, a wolf is a living being". But that wolf, in turn, has likely killed hundreds other animals throughout its life. And if you do not kill it now, it may kill dozens more. 

    These are all complicated and subjective matters.
  • DeeDee 1491 Pts
    @MayCaesar

    ****These are all complicated and subjective matters

    Yes , that’s a fair comment the matter is deeply complicated. Humans get immense pleasure from eating meat so if we weigh that against animal suffering is it worth it do you think?
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 115 Pts
    edited February 1
    @xlJ_dolphin_473
    So if your argument is that if organism X is dominant, then it eating meat to survive is morally justifiable, then I am curious. If an aggressive alien race invaded our world and then became the new dominant life on Earth, is it morally justifiable for them to kill and eat us? How does dominance equate to moral justification? Additionally, how does eating more of something increase the morality of the killing? Would that mean that if a serial murderer eats almost all his victims he should get a lesser sentence than a serial murderer who didn't eat their victims?

    I think that if an aggressive alien race invaded Planet Earth and they came to dominate over the current dominant life form (humans), then yes, I think it would be morally justified for them to kill and eat us. About your second point, I think that if a murderer kills and eats their victims, then they should get a lesser sentence than a murderer who didn't eat their victims, because they were killing them for a reason: to eat them. I strongly believe that purposeful killing is more justified than gratuitous killing. That concludes my argument.
  • @Dee

    I personally do not think that pleasure from eating meat really justifies killing animals or raising them on farms - however, meat is virtually necessary for humanity at this point. In the future, synthetic meat will likely replace animal meat and the problem will be solved, but as of now... We could in principle get rid of all meat, but in order to maintain healthy nutrition, we would need some sort of replacement. As far as I know, the only viable alternative to meat (aside from various artificial supplements that have their own issues) is mushrooms, and those are very-very hard to grow in an organised manner.

    I do not think we should ignore the problem, but right now farming and, to a smaller extent, hunting are necessary. It could be different 20-30 years down the road, and then this topic will likely become very popular.
  • @YeshuaBought
    If people don't have to present their case for their arguments then why join a debate website? What have you come here for?
    I never said that, so don't lie. I said that people don't have to prove a right to the government, to actually have that right.
  • @Shadowtongue ; Because I know...and I know God because His Spirit lives within me. If you want to know God, let me know, I can point the Way.

    smoothie
  • Humanity tends to value its own species much more than any other. We give protections of the law usually only to our own species and think of our own desires first and foremost. That tends to be why there isn't many countries abolishing meat consumption.

    We also tend to use animals as tools/resources/pets already, so it makes sense for humanity to use them as a food source as well. It is natural regarding the food chain and having such an intellectually dominant species where other animals can't compete.
    The trolls have taken over this website
  • Your case for abolishing meat consumption is that animals are people too?  Not very persuasive.
  • @MayCaesar
    Morality can be subjective depending on what it's predicated upon, but you do recognize that the principles of experiencing life, pain, pleasure, et cetera are principles found in all forms of sentient life and so the nature of killing and eating is the same across all sentient life and thus should be treated with consistent regard, right? If we are to avoid death and strive for prosperity in the forging of a social contract, then, in order to be objective, we should strive to make sure to avoid the killing and eating of non-human life as well.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @YeshuaBought
    What right did I say had to be proven to a government?
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @MayCaesar
    Non-sentient life is the only exception to this because, while it reacts, it doesn't have an active cognitive system in order to experience anything. It's just living matter.
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
  • @RickeyD
    You know because you know? In order to know something, the knowledge has to be predicated upon information which allowed the knowledge to arise in the first place.  So, what information do you have that what you experienced is truly divine in nature?
    smoothie
    I shall test your wit. Do not disappoint me.
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