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Does Christianity align with US values?
in Politics

I challenge anyone to name a single principal unique to Christianity that is one of the US democracy.

The myth that the US was founded on Christian principals is one that needs to be brought into light if there is to be any moral progress.

Being Christian does not make you a good person, and this realization is why so many people are leaving religion and checking "none" when asked about religion.
GrafixWe_are_accountable
At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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  • I don't care if it is or not, but I reserve my right, to be a Christian, whether the law supports me, or not.
    Happy_KillbotsmoothiexlJ_dolphin_473Grafix
  • @YeshuaBought I am so glad you have such important things to contribute!
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • What are 'US values'?
  • @xlJ_dolphin_473 The principals on which this nation was founded, which are in accordance with the writings and concepts Which the US was built, and as embodied by the US constitution.

    Examples would be:

    Separation of church and state,

    All men are equal,

    Political power comes from the people, not the government,

    Oppressive governments may be abolished by the people,

    Government based on checks and balances to limit power,

    Rights to a fair trial and to be tried only once.

    To name a few.
    Grafix
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 455 Pts
    edited February 1
    @Happy_Killbot

    Are you utilizing discrimination towards Religion on the internet? 

    And would you rather that the 329 million US citizens should align with you based on your below anti religious stance?

    (Is that the very Truth behind your individual anti Religious rationale or reasoning?

    Based on your below opinion or perception?)


    "Does Christianity align with US values?
    in Politics

    I challenge anyone to name a single principal unique to Christianity that is one of the US democracy.

    The myth that the US was founded on Christian principals is one that needs to be brought into light if there is to be any moral progress.

    Being Christian does not make you a good person, and this realization is why so many people are leaving religion and checking "none" when asked about religion. "

    Does an Atheist being an Atheist, in turn make a human being a good person, because they voluntarily chose to be an Atheist?



    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenGrafix
  • @TKDB Are you going to contribute to the conversation or just complain?

    Can you name a single principal unique to Christianity that is one of the founding principals of US Democracy?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    OK, so you mean fundamental laws? I'm not sure if that's the same thing as US values. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
    Grafix
  • @YeshuaBought I am so glad you have such important things to contribute!
    No actually, you are not, you are just treating me, like you treated @RickyD
    Happy_KillbotsmoothiePlaffelvohfen
  • @xlJ_dolphin_473 I sort of mean both I guess.

    The fundamental laws do not just exist, but they have to have been founded on certain values. What I am asking is if any of these values are based on Jeudeo-Christian values as many Christian nationalists will claim, or if they are their own values which can not be found in the Christian religion.

    Asked in a less convoluted way:

    Make a list of all Christian values based on the beliefs of the religion.

    Then make a list of all American values integral to the beliefs of the founding fathers as codified in their writings and the US constitution.

    Is there any overlap?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 455 Pts
    edited February 1
    @Happy_Killbot

    "Does Christianity align with US values?"


    Does the Atheist Ideology align with US values?

    Because a part of the Atheist Doctrine, is using Separation of Church and state, to Publicly sterilize, this or that Public property from any Religious themes right?

    You inspire some equal and fair questions:

    Should your Atheist values, maybe be placed above all U.S. values?

    Why just judge US values through the lens of your anti Religious stance, and include Atheist values as a part of the conversation as well?

    An equal and fair debate?


    Grafix
  • @YeshuaBought Huh. Now why would I want to do something like that...

    Do you have anything to contribute or not?

    Are there any principals on which the US was founded that were derived from Judaeo-Christian values?
    Grafix
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDB said:
    @Happy_Killbot

    "Does Christianity align with US values?"


    Does the Atheist Ideology align with US values?

    Because a part of the Atheist Doctrine, is use Separation of Church and state, to Publicly sterilize, this or that Public property from any Religious themes right?

    So basically, your Atheist values should maybe be placed above all U.S. values?

    Why just judge US values through the lens of your anti Religious stance, and include Atheist values as a part of the conversation as well?

    An equal and fair debate?


    That depends on what you mean by "atheist ideology" because to my knowledge, no such singular thing exists.

    Separation of church and state is an American value, the non-sense sentence you wrote doesn't really grasp what is meant by separation of church and state.

    Here is something for you to ponder instead of trying to change the discussion: Can there be freedom of religion without freedom from religion?

    That definitely is not a principal of Christianity, the first of the ten commandments says: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

    That is the opposite of what the first amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Therefore the first amendment is not also a Christian value.
    Grafix
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 455 Pts
    edited February 1
    @Happy_Killbot

    Does your individual Atheist opinion, or perception, align with US values?

    And you can view this Atheist Political Game card however you choose to verbally wrestle with what I expressed:

    "Separation of church and state is an American value, the non-sense sentence you wrote doesn't really grasp what is meant by separation of church and state."

    The Atheist way is to use the Separation of Church and State game card, to discriminate against Religion at its very leisure, right @Happy_Killbot?

    This is you Promoting your individual narratives:

    "Here is something for you to ponder instead of trying to change the discussion: Can there be freedom of religion without freedom from religion?

    That definitely is not a principal of Christianity, the first of the ten commandments says: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

    That is the opposite of what the first amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Therefore the first amendment is not also a Christian value."
    Happy_KillbotGrafix
  • @TKDB

    What is my atheist opinion, or perception?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    OK, I see what you mean there. There is some overlap, for example the unconditional forgiveness and sin and the freedom of everyone, but not much.
  • @xlJ_dolphin_473 Unconditional forgiveness is not a US value. Unless there is somewhere in the constitution that says that we should always forgive everyone. This would make the death penalty unconstitutional.

    Freedom for everyone is not a Judaeo-Christian value. The bible does not explicitly condemn slavery, and was even used to justify slavery of African's before the civil war. While Christianity doesn't enforce a caste system the way some eastern religions do, it does not overtly specify that all people are equal, rather that came from latter philosophical interpretations of the bible. In other words, people believed in egalitarian values and then made the bible fit this purpose instead of the other way around.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 455 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    "What is my atheist opinion, or perception?"

    The below appears to be your Atheist opinion and perception?

    (Unless you're using someone else narratives as your own?)

    "That depends on what you mean by "atheist ideology" because to my knowledge, no such singular thing exists.,

    "Separation of church and state is an American value, the non-sense sentence you wrote doesn't really grasp what is meant by separation of church and state."

    "Here is something for you to ponder instead of trying to change the discussion: Can there be freedom of religion without freedom from religion?"

    "That definitely is not a principal of Christianity, the first of the ten commandments says: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

    "That is the opposite of what the first amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Therefore the first amendment is not also a Christian value."

    You wrote the above statements didn't you?

    So one can view your own Atheist oriented narratives as yours rightfully, right?
    Grafix
  • @TKDB Knowing how to CTRl/C is not evidence of knowledge, especially when you don't even answer the question.

    Are there any principals on which the US was founded that were derived from Judaeo-Christian values?
    Grafix
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • TKDBTKDB 455 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot ;

    This is my Global opinion and perception in regards to both the Atheists and the Religious individuals around the Globe:

    It's voluntary to live ones life according to their individual Atheist, or Religious mindsets.

    It's voluntary to become Religious or Atheist oriented.

    And Discrimination against either, is when either the Atheist individual, or the Religious individuals go out of their ways to push their individual opinions or perceptions unto other people's faces, just to reinforce their Atheist, or Religious discrimination opinions unto others, right?

    And I'm wondering how Atheist or Religious oriented discrimination could be viewed as  a probable U.S. based value?

    You created your questions, I'm just expanding on them.


    Grafix
  • TKDBTKDB 455 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    So the below are not your opinions or perceptions?

    "What is my atheist opinion, or perception?"

    The below appears to be your Atheist opinion and perception?

    (Unless you're using someone else narratives as your own?)

    "That depends on what you mean by "atheist ideology" because to my knowledge, no such singular thing exists.,

    "Separation of church and state is an American value, the non-sense sentence you wrote doesn't really grasp what is meant by separation of church and state."

    "Here is something for you to ponder instead of trying to change the discussion: Can there be freedom of religion without freedom from religion?"

    "That definitely is not a principal of Christianity, the first of the ten commandments says: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

    "That is the opposite of what the first amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Therefore the first amendment is not also a Christian value."

    You wrote the above statements didn't you?

    So one can view your own Atheist oriented narratives as yours rightfully, right? 
  • Christianity IS American values...the atheistic filth that is pushing back on Godly values are the representatives of Satan in Time.


    smoothieHappy_Killbot
  • Christianity IS American values...the atheistic hopelessness that is pushing back on Godly values are the representatives of Satan in Time.


    smoothieHappy_KillbotGrafix
  • @RickeyD

    Give one (1) example. I challenge you.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • The big thing that comes to mind in this question is authoritarian religion versus a free country. Obviously, the constitution protects the establishment of such "christian values" to be imposed upon all citizens (right in the first amendment), so in the constitution itself, it rejects the establishment of such values. This is important when you look at "US values" in the government as it separates "US values" and "christian values" right off the bat.

    However, I still find the establishment of "US values" hard to agree on, as this country is split on nearly everything in the modern-day. One thing that did establish America, however, was freedom. This goes back to imposed authoritarianism versus the freedom of the people. There was a reason why many americans escaped authoritarian religion to settle here instead.

    Most christianity forces everybody to act a certain way to get into supposed heaven. This is frankly against freedom, as it reduces freedom and choice to "follow these rules, no other choice". In this manner, I don't think most christianity aligns with the US value of freedom. This can be shown with modern-day social conservatives enacting laws against the choices that don't fit their christian values

    This gets more complicated when you look at other branches of christianity that offer extreme forgiveness and the entrance to heaven for just choosing to enter heaven or hell after you die. Some may argue these branches would align with supposed "US values" of freedom. So still, even "christian values" are hard to agree on as there are many branches.

    It's a hard question to answer
    The trolls have taken over this website
  • TKDBTKDB 455 Pts
    edited February 1
    @Happy_Killbot

    Does your individual Atheist opinion, or perception, align with US values??

    "@TKDB Knowing how to CTRl/C is not evidence of knowledge, especially when you don't even answer the question.

    Are there any principals on which the US was founded that were derived from Judaeo-Christian values? "

    Do YOU have a real world problem, with United States values?

    You're an American, so why can't you face a question based on your Atheist values? 
    PlaffelvohfenGrafix
  • RickeyD said:
    Christianity IS American values...the atheistic hopelessness that is pushing back on Godly values are the representatives of Satan in Time.


    There are absolutely no Christian values in the founding of the United States. Individual liberty gives us all the right to live in spite of religious "values" so long as we don't break the law and violate others liberty. Freedom of speech gives me the right to call jesus a communist who was no better than marx and declare that I hold no value in the savior and reject any forgiveness he may give me. Freedom of speech is an American value that gives me the right to say that without fearing any wrath of American law, regardless of whatever mythological christian rules I have violated. There are no US laws that stop me from worshipping Satan if I so choose.

     There are American values that are being violated by supposed christian values, which is my right to economic freedom. I should be allowed to work for my money and keep it for my own self satisfaction. The christian/communist doctrine that says we must live for the sake of others has chipped away at our individual liberty and made the United socialist states.

    There is no doctrine in the constitution that says a man cannot marry another man, so it's not an American value to stop same sex marriage, and no American laws outlaw non-hetero relationships. Regardless of that supposed christian value, we are free to have non-heterosexual relationships without being in violation of the law. The values of the United States constitution gives us the freedom to violate mythological laws so long as we do not break American laws.

    Exactly where is it in the bible that says we should have to pay more taxes in the US to stop immigrants from entering? Since when did the bible preach that it is OK for US citizens to have to pay taxes for any government employees including military personnel and immigration patrol? Those are not legitimate jobs and those people shouldn't get any more money than what welfare recipients receive. If you value lower taxes, then where's the consistency in valuing border patrol agents or military personnel who should be volunteering their service. Can you point out what scripture it is that says American citizens must not have universal healthcare and must pass laws that requires IDs to vote? American values are not christian values.

        
    Happy_Killbotsmoothie
  • One would have to define those "US values" first. The US is a country comprised of 50 different states inhabited by near 330 million people. There are very few values, if any, that are shared by absolutely everyone. The only unifying document we have is the Constitution, and even that document is sophisticated enough to derive any definitive values from it.

    Similarly, there are hundreds denominations in Christianity, and thousands of sub-denominations. Every church has its own version of Christianity, and every Christian interprets the Bible their own way.

    What I see personally as a defining feature of the US compared to the rest of the world is the emphasis of its system on individual liberties. Individualism has been the foundational philosophy of the US, and I am not aware of any other country explicitly built with individualistic values in mind. 
    Individualism certainly is incompatible with Christianity, based on the assertion that there is some supreme authority everyone should obey. Christianity is authoritarian and collectivist by design, and the US was not meant to be authoritarian and collectivist by its Founding Fathers.

    Then again, the Founding Fathers have been gone for nearly two centuries, and many things have changed since then. The country is much more collectivist and authoritarian than it was at their time, albeit it is still arguably the most individualistic country on the planet.
    smoothie
  • @MayCaesar I'm not really asking about what values individuals have withing the US, but rather what values were the foundation on which the US was built, and how many of these values overlap or were sourced from Judaeo-Christian values.

    The constitution is an excellent example of such values put into practice, but it is not the values. You might ask: "what values would someone have that would lead them to develop the constitution?" and then do the same for Christianity. What I am asking is: "What if anything is the overlap between these two lists?" What I am claiming is that there is no overlap whatsoever.

    This is important to understand because many people (mostly conservatives) are claiming that the US was built on Christian values, when the reality is that this is a myth. To push it a step farther, I would argue that Christian nationalists are a threat to the US, and are probably at least partially responsible for the authoritarian draw we have seen recently, especially in the last two decades.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot

    Well, "no overlap whatsoever" is a very strong claim, and I would not go that far. There are many aspects of Christianity, and that all of them are incompatible with the Founding Fathers' values, especially considering that some of them were deeply believing Christians (even if of a very libertarian interpretation), I find virtually impossible to be true.

    The US almost certainly was not founded on Christian values, though, considering that the whole colony was a refuge for people fleeing Christian persecution in Europe, and that, again, the legal system was based on the individualistic values, while Christianity is deeply collectivist.
  • @MayCaesar I challenge you, or anyone else to point to a single one.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 2803 Pts
    edited February 2
    @Happy_Killbot

    The principle of "natural law" the Founding Fathers based their reasoning around human rights on they derived directly from Protestant teachings, according to which humans are responsible before god for all of their actions, and had inherent rights bestowed upon them by god. They could not justify human rights in any other logical way (and they disliked postulating them as an axiom for various reasons), but understood that human rights are absolutely vital for societal prosperity.

    Not all Christian denominations have the concept of "natural law" in them, and not all of those that do believe that human rights derive from that law - but some do. Again, the problem here is that there are so many different interpretations of the Bible that the term "Christian values" could mean virtually anything.
  • @MayCaesar Natural law is not truly a Christian concept, although it was developed by Christian philosophers who used the bible as justification for this idea. What's important here is that it was never intrinsic to Judaeo-Christian values, but rather neutral to it, such that the church didn't fight it off or kill the thinkers as heretics.

    Specifically, the verses in the bible used to justify it are:
    Romans 2:14 "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law."

    and

    Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

    Both of these only make sense as being indicative of natural law if you already have a robust understanding of what it means and you are not actively opposed to it. Likewise, the bible could just as easily have been used to justify slavery (as it was) which is exactly the opposite of what natural law suggests.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 2803 Pts
    edited February 2
    @Happy_Killbot

    Well, hardly anything is exclusive to Judaeo-Christianity, as the religion, just as all religions in general, was derived from other religions and folklore traditions of the past. Nothing being exclusive to it does not mean no beliefs are intrinsic to it, however. The concept of god-issued natural law is the central element of the variation of Protestantism that the Founding Fathers professed. Of course natural law is a much older concept, and even Ancient Greek philosophers talked about it.

    Virtually everything we can possibly think of is much older than us. When I came up with my voluntarist/anarcho-capitalist ideology several years ago on my own, I thought I had discovered something novel... He-h, the concept goes back over a thousand times, as it turned out, and its watered-down version traces back to Phoenicians and, likely, beyond.

    There have been many extremely intelligent and innovative humans at all periods of human history, and almost everything related to morals and societal organisation that we can come up with likely has already been thought about by someone well before our times.
  • @MayCaesar That caveat does add a fair layer of difficulty to anyone trying to disprove this claim, but provided that so many are firmly of the belief that the US was founded on Christian values, when this is evidently not the case, only goes to show that most Christians have no idea what their actual (and/or liberal democratic) values actually are.

    Many will make claim that natural law can be traced to Christian values when in fact they did not come from Christianity, but rather were developed first by the Greeks and later adopted by Christians, thus it doesn't meet the criteria I provided.

    Of course, it has to be that way specifically because if I dropped that requirement then it is automatically justified simply by having any founding father a Christian, and this isn't particularly useful.

    I think this is likely the origin of the myth, people see the values of the founding fathers and assume that because they were Christians that they must also be Christian values, even though they are rather far removed.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot

    I do not think I have heard the opinion that natural law has originated in Christianity many times, although some people certainly held these belief. Most people claiming that the US was founded on Christian values seem to be okay with just the notion that natural law is a part of Christianity (or, at least, some of its branches).
    Of course, the Founding Fathers had a lot of negative things to say about Christianity as well, which those people tend to forget.

    In my opinion, the entire notion is fairly inconsequential. What does it matter whether the US was or was not founded on Christian values? The US foundation occurred nearly 250 years ago, at a very different time technologically, socially, economically and politically. A lot of things have changed since then. What should really matter to us is not what values the US was founded on, but what values it should evolve on.
  • VaulkVaulk 720 Pts
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 I sort of mean both I guess.

    The fundamental laws do not just exist, but they have to have been founded on certain values. What I am asking is if any of these values are based on Jeudeo-Christian values as many Christian nationalists will claim, or if they are their own values which can not be found in the Christian religion.

    Asked in a less convoluted way:

    Make a list of all Christian values based on the beliefs of the religion.

    Then make a list of all American values integral to the beliefs of the founding fathers as codified in their writings and the US constitution.

    Is there any overlap?
    The answer to your question is "Yes".

    Christian Value: Equality
    "Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him".
    John 13:16

    American Value: Equality
    "All Men are Created Equal".
    Declaration of Independence

    Christian Value: Liberty
    "But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing".
    James 1:25

    American Value: Liberty
    "Except where authorized by citizens through the Constitution, government does not have the authority to limit freedom".
    Bill of Rights

    Christian Value: Federalism
    "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.".
    Romans 13:1

    American Value: Federalism
    "The people delegate certain powers to the national government, while the states retain other powers; and the people, who authorize both the states and national government, retain all freedoms not delegated to the governing bodies".
    Bill of Rights

    Christian Value: Moral Behavior
    "For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
    Romans 13:9

    American Value: Rule of Law
    "Government and citizens all abide by the same laws regardless of political power. Those laws are justly applied, consistent with an ethos of liberty, and stable".
    Bill of Rights

    Now some of these principles, I'm sure you could find in other Religious texts so an argument against them is fair.  So I'll leave you with one overall principle that is in fact unique to Christianity and also Unique to the United States's foundation that's codified by the Founding Fathers.

    The Founding Fathers obtained that very title on July 4th, 1776 when they ratified the Declaration of Independence.  From this legendary document I'll draw your attention to two very critical statements made by the founders:

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

    Not only did the Founders establish that moral righteousness (Rectitude) rests in the eyes of the "Supreme Judge of the World" but they also declared their firm reliance upon protection of "Divine Providence" or what is known as "God's sovereign guidance and control".

    The "Founders" "Founded" our Country upon moral righteousness according to God and appealed further to God for his protection while they did so.  This is perfectly documented within the founding document (Declaration of Independence).


    https://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/declaration-of-independence/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA4NTxBRDxARIsAHyp6gB6q_fpJKOt51XA0ZWzYTn-SIy-VLzX_U4vWcA9xgkaF53Cm8pil9saAin-EALw_wcB&utm_source=GOOGLE&utm_medium=TEXT&utm_campaign=EVERGREEN&utm_term=DECLARATION&utm_content=DECLARATION



    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • @MayCaesar It matters because voters can be mislead and manipulated. Arguably, Trump is in office because of this lie. Christian values, true Christian values that is, are a threat to liberal values, and therefore to everything that the US stands for.

    If our values are evolving in a way that moves away from the founding values, especially in the name of conservatism, then there is no anchor to prevent drift to other less favorable values that are not in line with what is best for everyone.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot

    The dominant values in America have already evolved dramatically since the time of the US foundation. For example, at the time of the Founding Fathers welfare virtually did not exist, and people saw welfare as a manifestation of corruption in the government and violation of the individual sovereignty - yet today welfare programs are numerous, taxation is out of hand, and the government is bigger and stronger than ever. Whatever the predominant values in the US 250 years ago were, they are different now. Times change, the world changes, and people change.

    What the country was like 250 years ago is irrelevant now. What matters is what the country is like right now and in what direction it is desirable to change it. 250 years ago slavery was abundant in the US; should we now say that allowance of slavery should be an American value? Whatever values this country was founded on, they are in the past, and return to them is not necessarily desirable.
  • @xlJ_dolphin_473 Unconditional forgiveness is not a US value. Unless there is somewhere in the constitution that says that we should always forgive everyone. This would make the death penalty unconstitutional.

    Freedom for everyone is not a Judaeo-Christian value. The bible does not explicitly condemn slavery, and was even used to justify slavery of African's before the civil war. While Christianity doesn't enforce a caste system the way some eastern religions do, it does not overtly specify that all people are equal, rather that came from latter philosophical interpretations of the bible. In other words, people believed in egalitarian values and then made the bible fit this purpose instead of the other way around.
    I can only think of one more.
    • Retribution
    The Old Testament has 'an eye for an eye' system of justice. If you kill someone in the US, you get the death penalty.
  • TKDBTKDB 455 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    Does your individual Atheist opinion, or perception, align with US values??
  • @xlJ_dolphin_473

    Maybe there is an argument there, but I would argue that the basic ideas of statecraft including justice and retribution for wrongdoings can be traced back much further to the Mesopotamian civilization, which were then latter adopted by the Hebrew tribes living in the area. For this reason it is not unique to Christianity and doesn't meet the criteria.
    xlJ_dolphin_473Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Vaulk

    Vaulk said:
    @xlJ_dolphin_473 I sort of mean both I guess.

    The fundamental laws do not just exist, but they have to have been founded on certain values. What I am asking is if any of these values are based on Jeudeo-Christian values as many Christian nationalists will claim, or if they are their own values which can not be found in the Christian religion.

    Asked in a less convoluted way:

    Make a list of all Christian values based on the beliefs of the religion.

    Then make a list of all American values integral to the beliefs of the founding fathers as codified in their writings and the US constitution.

    Is there any overlap?
    The answer to your question is "Yes".

    Christian Value: Equality
    "Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him".
    John 13:16

    American Value: Equality
    "All Men are Created Equal".
    Declaration of Independence

    Christian Value: Liberty
    "But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing".
    James 1:25

    American Value: Liberty
    "Except where authorized by citizens through the Constitution, government does not have the authority to limit freedom".
    Bill of Rights

    Christian Value: Federalism
    "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.".
    Romans 13:1

    American Value: Federalism
    "The people delegate certain powers to the national government, while the states retain other powers; and the people, who authorize both the states and national government, retain all freedoms not delegated to the governing bodies".
    Bill of Rights

    Christian Value: Moral Behavior
    "For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
    Romans 13:9

    American Value: Rule of Law
    "Government and citizens all abide by the same laws regardless of political power. Those laws are justly applied, consistent with an ethos of liberty, and stable".
    Bill of Rights

    Now some of these principles, I'm sure you could find in other Religious texts so an argument against them is fair.  So I'll leave you with one overall principle that is in fact unique to Christianity and also Unique to the United States's foundation that's codified by the Founding Fathers.

    The Founding Fathers obtained that very title on July 4th, 1776 when they ratified the Declaration of Independence.  From this legendary document I'll draw your attention to two very critical statements made by the founders:

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

    Not only did the Founders establish that moral righteousness (Rectitude) rests in the eyes of the "Supreme Judge of the World" but they also declared their firm reliance upon protection of "Divine Providence" or what is known as "God's sovereign guidance and control".

    The "Founders" "Founded" our Country upon moral righteousness according to God and appealed further to God for his protection while they did so.  This is perfectly documented within the founding document (Declaration of Independence).


    https://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/declaration-of-independence/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA4NTxBRDxARIsAHyp6gB6q_fpJKOt51XA0ZWzYTn-SIy-VLzX_U4vWcA9xgkaF53Cm8pil9saAin-EALw_wcB&utm_source=GOOGLE&utm_medium=TEXT&utm_campaign=EVERGREEN&utm_term=DECLARATION&utm_content=DECLARATION



    I think it would be hard to argue that liberty and equality is a christian value based on John 13:16 and James 1:25 when Romans 13:1 also says you should obey authority. Similarly, I think the context for both of these is important, as John 13:16 and James 1:25 is about Jesus washing his disciple's feet and the freedom giving law that this verse talks about is specifically referring to god granting autonomy to individuals, and I don't think it means quite the same as how we might interpret it today. In addition to this, these ideas are not unique to Christianity because they also existed in the Greek culture, and to a much greater degree than the soft "go out and wash people's feet" idea that you claim is equality and liberty.

    Similarly Romans 13:1 does not support federalism, but just authority in general. Is this a monarchy? A dictatorship? A Theocracy? This is not made clear by this verse. To suggest that it is indeed in support of federalism, I would need a little more proof here. (did the idea of a federation exist 2000 years ago?) The bible definitely values authority, that much is apparent, but the libertarian values the nation was founded on are the polar opposite of these.

    I don't think the ten commandments are in line with the constitutions at all. The first of the ten commandments, "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.” is simply incompatible with the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Because if you take the first commandment to heart, then you have to discriminate against other gods in violation of the first amendment.

    Let me ask you this, who is the "supreme Judge of the world" and/or "divine providence" referring too? Is it Yahweh? Allah? Vishnu? Thor? the cosmos? Ra? the sun? Satin? Jupiter? Zeus? (I could go on and on) This document doesn't make it clear. which if any of these are being promoted. Can we really say that these are christian values when it is ambiguous if any god is supported by these statements? One thing is clear, Christianity values itself, and values promoting and spreading itself, which is why so many sects proselytize and raise there kids into the religion. The founding US values however, values no religion over any other. Although the founding fathers were predominantly Christian, I have no doubt that they would have accepted other religions so long as they would abide by the laws of the US.

    My point is, our modern conception of the US as a secular nation is deluded by the idea that the US is a Christian nation, founded on Christian values for Christians, when this is clearly a myth. It is easier to project US values as being Christian values than it is to get US values out of Christianity, which is why so many highly religious countries (and states) are the most authoritarian and tend to have more violent crime and lower standards of living. None of the Christian values are US values, and politicians and theocrats who suggest otherwise are a threat to our democracy.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @YeshuaBought Huh. Now why would I want to do something like that...

    Do you have anything to contribute or not?

    Are there any principals on which the US was founded that were derived from Judaeo-Christian values?
    I really don't care, how the US was founded, I reserve the right, to live for Jesus, by the Bible.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @YeshuaBought

    Even at the expense of US values? I'm not saying you can't be a Christian, just that putting Christ before country is anti-American.

    You know, the Christian majority is against abortion, LGBTQ rights, personal freedoms, freedom from religion, and pro capital punishment.

    If you care about god more than liberalism, you will have to accept that these issues will be lost because that is what the Christian majority supports.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @YeshuaBought

    Even at the expense of US values? I'm not saying you can't be a Christian, just that putting Christ before country is anti-American.

    You know, the Christian majority is against abortion, LGBTQ rights, personal freedoms, freedom from religion, and pro capital punishment.

    If you care about god more than liberalism, you will have to accept that these issues will be lost because that is what the Christian majority supports.
    No it really is not. I am also a moderate Constituionalist, so I reserve the right, to my personal liberties.
  • @YeshuaBought

    Do you see how the two ideas (Christian values, US values) may be in conflict?

    How about this: make me a list of all things that the US values, and a list of things that Christianity values.
    Grafix
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @YeshuaBought

    Do you see how the two ideas (Christian values, US values) may be in conflict?

    How about this: make me a list of all things that the US values, and a list of things that Christianity values.
    I have the right, to religious liberty, and I have done nothing wrong. I will never change my mind.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @YeshuaBought

    You are reading what I am writing right? Or are you just getting defensive for no reason?
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @YeshuaBought

    You are reading what I am writing right? Or are you just getting defensive for no reason?
    If you don't want to stay on topic, you are free to not reply to me. I am not anti-American, and I have the right, to my beliefs.
    PlaffelvohfenGrafix
  • @YeshuaBought

    make me a list of all things that the US values, and a list of things that Christianity values.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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