Does Christianity align with US values?

YeshuaBought

Happy_Killbot said:

@YeshuaBought

make me a list of all things that the US values, and a list of things that Christianity values.

I don't jave to. It's my life, and I will do what I want. if you don't like it, that is your problem, and I don't answer, to you.

Happy_Killbot

@YeshuaBought
If you don't then I will assume you can't, and my thesis stands that Christianity is not aligned with US values.

YeshuaBought

Happy_Killbot said:

@YeshuaBought
If you don't then I will assume you can't, and my thesis stands that Christianity is not aligned with US values.

I don't have to answer to you. You are not God, so I don't owe you anything. I don't have to defend my right, to religious liberty, and I never will. You have the right to your opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts. I will literally never agree with your opion.

Happy_Killbot

@YeshuaBought

First off, this isn't an opinion. If you think the US was founded on Christian values, then it is you and not me who is living by "your own facts" and I have the evidence to back that up.

The US was not founded as a Christian nation, it is right there in the first amendment to the constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That means that any religion is allowed to be practiced, even if that religion is not Christian. The US is SECULAR NOT CHRISTIAN!

If you believe otherwise, please show some evidence to support your alternate facts.

Vaulk

Happy_Killbot said:

@Vaulk ;

Let me ask you this, who is the "supreme Judge of the world" and/or "divine providence" referring too? Is it Yahweh? Allah? Vishnu? Thor? the cosmos? Ra? the sun? Satin? Jupiter? Zeus? (I could go on and on) This document doesn't make it clear. which if any of these are being promoted. Can we really say that these are christian values when it is ambiguous if any god is supported by these statements? One thing is clear, Christianity values itself, and values promoting and spreading itself, which is why so many sects proselytize and raise there kids into the religion. The founding US values however, values no religion over any other. Although the founding fathers were predominantly Christian, I have no doubt that they would have accepted other religions so long as they would abide by the laws of the US.

My point is, our modern conception of the US as a secular nation is deluded by the idea that the US is a Christian nation, founded on Christian values for Christians, when this is clearly a myth. It is easier to project US values as being Christian values than it is to get US values out of Christianity, which is why so many highly religious countries (and states) are the most authoritarian and tend to have more violent crime and lower standards of living. None of the Christian values are US values, and politicians and theocrats who suggest otherwise are a threat to our democracy.

Firstly, this is an appeal to ignorance.  I've already provided sufficient proof of exactly what "Divine Providence" means and it cannot be taken in any other way within the context of the DOI. 

1. The Founders met and began their governing business with a Prayer to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
2. At the time of the drafting of the DOI, Eight of the Thirteen Colonies had official state Churches., all of which were Christian.
3. All persons attempting to hold government office at any level were required to publicly declare their belief in God, this was not
    abolished until 1961 during Torcaso v. Watkins.  This included all the founding fathers.
4. The Bible is by far the most often quoted source in all of the publications and speeches of the founding era.



This is all neglecting the simple fact that our founders are quoted innumerable times as referencing God and his Word as being the inspiration for the foundation of the U.S.

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams, February 22, 1756

"These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil .... This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this... "The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law, and they are to be found only in the holy scriptures ... [and] are found upon comparison to be really part of the original law of nature. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these. William Blackstone (Federer, p.52)

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (Federer, p. 10)

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion ... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." George Washington's Farewell Address

No other nation has a closer parallel to the Judeo-Christian tradition than the United States of America.

If you need more, the National Center for Constitutional Studies has a mirror provision where you can make direct comparisons from Judeo-Christian Values directly to the American Founder Ideals: https://nccs.net/blogs/articles/judeo-christian-roots-of-americas-founding-ideals-and-documents

If that's not enough then I defer to the absolute highest court authority in the United States of America, the U.S. Supreme Court in their decision that the U.S. is in fact a Christian Nation founded upon Christian ideals.
https://christianheritagefellowship.com/supreme-court-declares-america-christian

Don't take my word for it, look up historical Supreme Court decisions...there is a long and rich history of the Supreme Court declaring the foundation of our Country and the Country itself as Christian.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk

Asking which god is a perfectly reasonable question, because even thought the founding fathers were predominantly Christian, something I am not arguing against, this is not adequate to demonstrate a clear connection between the founding principals of the US and the values of Christianity, and in many cases they do in fact contradict, or can be found elsewhere. Remember, being unique to Christianity is a requirement here.

For example, ideas of morality predate Hebrew culture by hundreds if not thousands of years, and thus can not be attributed to them, thus it is not a Judaeo-Christian value because it did not come from them.

The US is not the country that is the closest to Judaeo-Christian values, how about the Vatican? or middle eastern theocracies?

Declaring the US to be Christian shows a blatant disregard for the first amendment, because it disadvantages other religions that are not Christian.

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
—John Adams

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding
-- Thomas Jefferson

“If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
--George Washington,

The fact is that the US was not founded as a Christian nation, but a secular one, and perhaps the first for that matter. There are no values on which the US was founded that came from Christianity, most of them came from more ancient works or non Christian ideas, such as the Sumerians, Greeks, and Romans.

YeshuaBought

Happy_Killbot said:

@YeshuaBought

First off, this isn't an opinion. If you think the US was founded on Christian values, then it is you and not me who is living by "your own facts" and I have the evidence to back that up.

The US was not founded as a Christian nation, it is right there in the first amendment to the constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That means that any religion is allowed to be practiced, even if that religion is not Christian. The US is SECULAR NOT CHRISTIAN!

If you believe otherwise, please show some evidence to support your alternate facts.

Yes it is an opinion. I will literally never agree with you, so don't force your anti-Christian bias, on me.

YeshuaBought

I stand by what I said, and yes it is an opinion.

Happy_Killbot

@YeshuaBought

MayCaesar

@YeshuaBought

If you will never agree with your opponent no matter what, then why are you partaking in a debate? The purpose of a debate generally is to hear out alternative opinions and to possibly alter your own opinion as a result. If your opinion is rock-solid and will never change, then you are wasting your time in these debates.

Also, your opponent has been writing long insightful comments, while you have just been responding with short one-liners. I think you should have a little more respect for your opponent's time and, at least, offer a substantial argument in response. What you are doing is just lazy and disrespectful.

Dee

@YeshuaBought

***** Yes it is an opinion. I will literally never agree with you, so don't force your anti-Christian bias, on me.

You agree with no one yet you never once offer up an argument to support your case why’s that?

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

Does your individual Atheist opinion, or perception, align with US values??

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

The U.S. Supreme court holds higher authority than you do and has already declared that the U.S. is a Christian nation. 

Dislike it, complain about it, be upset about it all you want...the facts remain facts no matter how much you disagree with them.

YeshuaBought

Dee said:

@YeshuaBought

***** Yes it is an opinion. I will literally never agree with you, so don't force your anti-Christian bias, on me.

You agree with no one yet you never once offer up an argument to support your case why’s that?

Leave me alone. You don't have the right to harass me, and I have reported you.

YeshuaBought

MayCaesar said:

@YeshuaBought

If you will never agree with your opponent no matter what, then why are you partaking in a debate? The purpose of a debate generally is to hear out alternative opinions and to possibly alter your own opinion as a result. If your opinion is rock-solid and will never change, then you are wasting your time in these debates.

Also, your opponent has been writing long insightful comments, while you have just been responding with short one-liners. I think you should have a little more respect for your opponent's time and, at least, offer a substantial argument in response. What you are doing is just lazy and disrespectful.

I have the right, to my beliefs. 

smoothie

MayCaesar said:

@YeshuaBought

If you will never agree with your opponent no matter what, then why are you partaking in a debate? The purpose of a debate generally is to hear out alternative opinions and to possibly alter your own opinion as a result. If your opinion is rock-solid and will never change, then you are wasting your time in these debates.

Also, your opponent has been writing long insightful comments, while you have just been responding with short one-liners. I think you should have a little more respect for your opponent's time and, at least, offer a substantial argument in response. What you are doing is just lazy and disrespectful.

I agree. Aarong recently reached out to me to ask about YeshuaBought, their disrespect needs to stop and it ruins the healthy debate environment.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk

Vaulk said:

@Happy_Killbot

The U.S. Supreme court holds higher authority than you do and has already declared that the U.S. is a Christian nation. 

Dislike it, complain about it, be upset about it all you want...the facts remain facts no matter how much you disagree with them.

This is simply a misunderstanding of the context of Holy Trinity Church v. the United States, ruling in 1892. The case was about a federal law that prohibited companies from pre-paying transportation costs of non citizens to come and work in the US. This was challenged by the Church because they had contracted an Englishman named E. Walpole Warren. The supreme court found the law to be too broad because it covered more than it should have, and was not based on the US being a Christian nation. Justice David Brewer specifically labels "Christian nation" as being an unofficial declaration, he was merely stating that the people in the US were predominantly Christian, not that the state was Christian or organized specifically for Christians.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/143/457/

He even wrote a book (I haven't read it, I only found out about it through research) where Justice Brewer quotes:

"But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. [...]

Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions."

Another deeper point from the trial is the fundamental point I am trying to make with this post, that is that Christianity adopted US values, not the other way around.

"that the case assumes that we are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity"
p-143

Besides these points, even if the US was declared a Christian nation by the supreme court (It was not), then it is high time that was changed, because religious "nones" are more numerous than Catholics in the US according to the Pew research center religious landscape survey, and are growing at a rapid pace.
https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

If the Us is to be a Christian nation, then that implies that all of those people are second class citizens. Not exactly the fairness and equality that this country was founded on.

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

You've missed the point.  I'm not arguing that the U.S. is predominantly Christian or that it's supposedly a Chritian Nation by Christians for Christians only...that's not the case.

The case I've made is for the fundamental core principles of the United States.  Does Christianity align with U.S. values?  Yes, it does.  Why or how you might ask?



Because of these Men.

These Men inherited the title "Founder" when they ratified the Declaration of Independence.  During the process of "Founding" of our Country they formally submitted their actions to the Supreme Judge of the World and went on the record to acknowledge that morality and righteousness ultimately rest in the hands of God.

When you found an organization and then DURING the creation of the founding document you go on the record to submit your actions to a higher power, appeal to that higher authority and declare that authority to possess ultimate purview as to what is and isn't morally righteous...you have just established a founding principle of whatever it is that you're founding.  

If I found the "Men over 35 club" by drafting a formal declaration with 9 other Men and we all decide to declare in the document that U.S. Law is the supreme authority over our organization and that it is with approval from the Law-maker that we create this organization...then we wouldn't be able to deny that our organization was founded upon support, belief and ultimately reliance upon U.S. Law.  It would be laughable to say that U.S. Law has nothing to do with the founding of our club or that our club wasn't built upon U.S. Law.

Likewise the U.S. is founded upon Christianity because the Founding Fathers declared (IN THE FOUNDING DOCUMENT) that God is the ultimate moral authority, that he guides and protects the founders in their act to declare independence and they rested the justification for the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in God's name. In their founding document when they declared reliance upon "Divine Providence"...which can only be interpreted one way, they identified the Christian God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk This point, although well and good doesn't meet the criteria for my challenge, because morality from higher authority is not unique to Christianity.

In fact, this philosophy isn't Christian at all, it is based on divine command theory and was later picked up by Christianity.
https://www.iep.utm.edu/divine-c/

The founding fathers do not specify which deity is the supreme moral authority by name, today we would say that they were very agnostic or Unitarian in this matter and the founding fathers probably would have agreed should the word "agnostic" have existed in their lifetimes.

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

Divine Providence, as provided in the Declaration of Independence is explained as being a reference to the Christian God by the Author of the Declaration of Independence.  Reliance upon the Christian God is in fact unique to Christianity as well as the Founders of our Country.  Acknowledging that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the ultimate moral authority is unique to Christianity and to the founders of our country.

It's here: https://www.ucg.org/beyond-today/blogs/americas-declaration-of-dependence-on-divine-providence

And here: https://greatseal.com/mottoes/providence.html

And here: https://thefounding.net/americas-founding-with-a-firm-reliance-on-the-protection-of-divine-providence/

Now you don't have to provide evidence or proof that they aren't referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...but with the evidence that I've provided you...do you have any reasonable cause to refute it and if so...what is it?

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk
I'm not trying to refute this, because a key component of my challenge is that the value must be unique to Christianity.

Even being true that the founding fathers did base much of the constitution on the idea of divine providence, it is insufficient to meet the criteria of my challenge.

This is a necessity because if there are other sources that had the same idea first, as is the case for divine authority, which is a derivative of divine command theory, then it isn't really a Christian value because it can be traced back to a more ancient source. We have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that idea came from Christianity.

Said another way, if the ideas existed elsewhere it is possible that:

• The values on which the US were formed could have developed independently of Christianity.
• Christian values were modified from their original format to include new values, some of which formed the US.
• There is no conclusive proof that these values are absolute Christian values.

MayCaesar

@Happy_Killbot

I do not think there is a single value in principle that is absolutely unique to Christianity, as Christianity itself derives from other religions and folklore traditions. Virtually any value Christians have ever considered had already been considered before. 
The statement that "Christianity aligns with the US values" would be equivalent to something like "values many Christians share strongly overlap with values the US system implies", which is quite a hard statement to analyse.

That said, I do not agree with @Vaulk's notion that some references to Christianity in the foundational documents of the US imply that the US values align with Christianity. What matters is not some abstract words in documents about god, but the actual values that follow.

Happy_Killbot

@MayCaesar
This is half of the point I am trying to make. Christianity isn't special in any way. The rest is that Christianity adopted US values, not the other way around.

The reason to fight this common misconception is to provide a reality check for Christian nationalists, as a deterrent for theocracy and authoritarian leaders.

TKDB

@Happy_Killbot

Does your individual Atheist opinion, or perception, align with US values??

Happy_Killbot

@TKDB

This is what I think about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeINAUKm1KA

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

Does Christianity align with US values?

I haven't scrubbed every response on these two pages but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that we haven't necessarily defined "what are the core values of the United States".

Allow me to suggest that we operate on the following:

1. Liberty
2. Self Government
3. Equality
4. Individualism
5. Diversity
6. Unity

Do these values align with Christian Values?  Yes, they do.  I won't assume that you need scripture for each of these as I've gone over several of these already.  Are they necessarily unique to Christianity?  No, there is no value that is exclusively unique to Christianity except that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is to be worshipped and that you must have faith in him...and everything that comes with that.  

So I'd say that "Worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in respect to the New Testament" is probably the only unique value that Christianity and the U.S. both have.  When I use the word value, I mean it in the true meaning of the word: Principles or standards of behavior.

While we as a nation may have strayed from the intent of our Founders, that does nothing to change the fact that a principle is a fundamental truth that serves as a foundation for a system of belief...and you've already made it clear that you understand that our Founders founded this Country upon the belief and reliance in God's ultimate moral authority.  Ergo the principle of worshipping and relying on Divine Providence for judgement in what is morally righteous serves as a value established in the founding of our country and that value is also unique to Christianity.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk
None of the things, not a single one you listed are ideas that come from Christianity, rather they are things that Christianity adopted to prevent becoming obsolete. If they were, then the medieval period which was dominated by the church would have been profoundly different.

Worshiping the god of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is not a US value, in fact it is as I have stated multiple times now, very unamerican, because the US was founded as a secular nation not one meant for only Christians. It was not the founding father's intention to make the US a Christian nation.

I have already debunked the idea that divine providence is a Christian idea, and it is a dubious and empty philosophy at that. You would still need to demonstrate that the idea came from Christianity and not from Greek literature, which I think is more likely anyways given that enlightenment principals and the rediscovery of ancient Greek and Roman culture was also responsible for much of the values on which the US is built, arguably much, much more than Christianity.

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

At this point I really think you're just refusing to understand reason and instead insisting on your version of what a foundation really is.  

Q: When was the U.S. founded?
A: On July 4th, 1776

Q: Who founded the U.S.?
A: These Men.

Q: What was the U.S. founded upon?
A: On a set of beliefs.

Q: What was included in these foundational beliefs?
A: The unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; That God bestowed these unalienable rights; That God is the Supreme Judge of the World; That ultimate moral righteousness is determined by God; That the act of founding the United States is done so with God's wisdom and guidance; That the U.S. should be independent from Britain.

Bottom Line: If your founding document includes unanimous dependence upon God's wisdom and guidance, unanimous concession that God is the "Supreme Judge of the World" and unanimous recognition that ultimate moral authority and righteousness rests in the eyes of God...then your foundation is rooted deeply in God regardless of what your organization looks like today.  How the U.S. has evolved has no effect on what its foundation is made of.

This doesn't mean that we're a Christian Nation necessarily (Although my opinion differs), it is a means to identify our foundation.  In this truth is the answer to your question: 

Does Christianity align with US values?

Yes, it does.  Failure to strictly adhere to our values does not equate to annexation from our founding principles.

Additionally, your argument that Christianity somehow copied another system is irrelevant to your question.  If it mattered where the origins of Christian principles came from then we'd also have cause to eliminate the second comparison model: The U.S., because the values in the U.S. aren't unique either.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk
It is very relevant how Christianity got it's values, because it is central to the central points I am trying to make, one of which you have already recognized. Said briefly it is that there is nothing special about Christianity and Christian values.

The second, which I think you haven't quite gotten yet is that US values inspired Christianity, not the other way around. The reason why so many today falsely believe that the US was founded on Christian values as a Christian nation is because they have the relationship flipped. The god beliefs of the founding fathers was very questionable, and I don't think it is possible to make an absolute assessment about what they actually thought and believed, given all the contradictory data.

Christianity and US values are not completely compatible in every way, for example Christianity requires you to be intolerant of other religions, and the first amendment to the constitution demands that we tolerate every religion by neither helping nor hurting any. Liberalism values freedom and individuality, Christianity is very authoritarian and demands control of its members, LGBTQ rights being an obvious point of contention.

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

Firstly, Christianity existed as a doctrine long before the existence of the United States or the existence of our Founding Fathers.  If we operate on your premise that the values in Christianity aren't unique to Christianity and they were adopted from other cultures/religions then you can't even say that the United States inspired Christianity. 

So to say that the values of the United States inspired Christianity is patently false, even taking into consideration a world where, indirectly, the values of the U.S. were actually values of another socioeconomic organization who may have influenced Christianity at some point which in turn might explain why they eventually came to align with the values of another Country in the Future...it's a stretch.

The core of the issue here though is a misunderstanding of what a foundation is.  The United States is not a physical entity, it is an ideological and metaphysical title that represents first and foremost "We the People".  That said the foundation of that idea was established on July 4th, 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was ratified.  Now your argument seems to be rooted in the premise that the foundation of the U.S. cannot be Christian because the beliefs of the Founders were unknown at best.  The issue with this premise is that, despite their beliefs being varied regarding Christianity and more importantly the relationship between Christianity and the U.S., it is well established in the founding document what their beliefs and ideas were based on.  

Essentially what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what your personal beliefs are, if you put your name on a founding document that says you firmly rely on God, believe in God, submit to God and hereby submit the act of founding this Country on the righteousness of God's moral authority...then the foundation of your Country is undeniably rooted in God.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk What I suggest is that the changes to Christianity came after the US founding, because like it or not, no religion is incorruptible or immune from external influence. Arguably many of the ideas in early Hebrew culture are themselves an amalgamation of earlier works and ideas of other early empires.

Some scholars have even argued that the early Hebrews were actually polytheistic, and that the entities we now refer to as angels and demons were lesser gods, lost to a semantics more than anything else.

When the founding fathers refer to the supreme authority they do so in a very agnostic way, or more accurately a way that today we would recognize as being agnostic. When you claim that this refers only to your god, the Christian god, you do so without any evidence or justification. Suppose someone argued that they were referring to the deities of the native Americans. Although I think that this would be a hard sell, I think it would be just as difficult to disprove, thus it can not be eliminated as a possibility. What is more likely is that they just wanted to make things as ambiguous as possible, which is what I am arguing first and foremost.

I think this was intentional too, In this way they could allow anyone to deify the founding document as being a holy work, which is precisely what happened when I suggest that Christianity adopted US values.

Vaulk

Happy_Killbot said:

When the founding fathers refer to the supreme authority they do so in a very agnostic way, or more accurately a way that today we would recognize as being agnostic. When you claim that this refers only to your god, the Christian god, you do so without any evidence or justification. Suppose someone argued that they were referring to the deities of the native Americans. Although I think that this would be a hard sell, I think it would be just as difficult to disprove, thus it can not be eliminated as a possibility. What is more likely is that they just wanted to make things as ambiguous as possible, which is what I am arguing first and foremost.

I think this was intentional too, In this way they could allow anyone to deify the founding document as being a holy work, which is precisely what happened when I suggest that Christianity adopted US values.

I've actually covered this about twice now, this will be a third time.

One meaning that was universally understood due to the ubiquity of The New England Primer in early America is found in the catechism that was often contained in it. Question #11 of the Shorter Catechism asks, “What are God’s works of providence?” The answer given says, “God’s works of providence are his most holy, wise and powerful, preserving and governing all his creatures and all their actions.” For our Founders, Providence meant the intervention of God in the affairs of men.

Divine Providence in the Declaration of Independence is a direct reference to the Christian God.

It's here: https://www.ucg.org/beyond-today/blogs/americas-declaration-of-dependence-on-divine-providenceAnd here:https://providenceforum.org/story/declaration-of-independence/
And here: https://greatseal.com/mottoes/providence.html

This argument is academic.  There is no refuting that Divine Providence is a reference to God, not "A" God or "Your" God, but "God".

Also for future reference, I'm not religious nor am I a Christian.  You assume that I am because of my position in this argument and that's understandable but I assure you I'm not.  I don't have to be Christian to look at the founding documents and draw the logical conclusion that it's literally chocked full of foundational identifiers for the Christian God.
And yes, your argument is a stretch I'll agree.  You'd have to go so far out of your way to actually believe that the DOI isn't talking about the Christian God that you'd give every reason to suspect an outright refusal to see reason.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the cause which impel them to the separation"

Natures god, not Christian's god. The founding fathers were Diests- basically they believed that god exists outside the universe, created it and then everything just happened without its intervention. It is more based on ethics than on dogma.

Divine providence doesn't require the Christian god.

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

Ok, now you're simply ignoring the evidence I've provided and instead citing the first segment of the DOI.  I've made no reference to "Natures God" so I'm not sure who you're arguing this point against but it's not me.

And I get one line in response to Divine Providence not being a reference to the Christian God.  I've given you multiple references and citations to show you how and why it is a reference to the Christian God and while I suppose it's within your purview to just simply say "Nah uh".  I had hoped for more I guess.

Thanks for playing.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk The idea that the US was founded as a Christian nation when that is apparently not the case is a dangerous political supposition that needs to be corrected, lest it lead to theocracy or religious oppression.

All I seek to demonstrate is that the US is secular not Christian, founded on secular values not Christian values, for all religions not one specific type, or no religions should you choose.

There can not be freedom of religion without freedom from religion. It is very important that this be understood especially in our modern times.

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

Then you've fundamentally misunderstood my argument.  I'm not arguing that the U.S. was founded AS a Christian Nation although some have declared it so.  I'm arguing that the U.S. was Founded UPON Christianity...there's a distinct difference between the two.

Founded AS a Christian Nation would mean that government officials would have to declare their allegiance to God to hold office...which they did at the time of the founding of our Nation and that wasn't really done away with until the 1960s.  

Founded AS a Christian Nation would mean that there would be State Churches...which there were at the time of the founding lol.  This is funny.

Founded AS a Christian Nation would mean that other religions wouldn't be allowed.

Founded AS a Christian Nation would mean that the Bible would be written into Law.


BUT...Founded UPON Christianity simply means that the foundation, the pillar, the structural support of the United States is in fact Christian.  That doesn't automatically mean that the U.S. is Christian or even majority Christian.  The fact that it is majority Christian is irrelevant.  The bottom line is that no matter what you believe, no matter your worldview, you might be an atheist and you might be a devil worshipper...but in the United States you're still seated on Christianity because it's in the founding documents.  You can ignore it...no one's going to force it on you, but it is there whether you like it or not.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk Haven't I demonstrated adequately that none of the founding principals of the US came from Christianity, but in fact have their roots in other cultures and traditions, which were either adopted by Christians or were created independently of Christianity?

Divine providence is rooted in Greek philosophy, and the founding fathers make no mention to Christianity in the founding documents.

You have not demonstrated as such, and a simple test would be to see if someone can figure out what Christianity is about based on US documents. If someone from outside of our culture were given these documents and then told they were instead based upon, say, Muslim beliefs, could they prove you wrong?

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

Maybe this will help...this is all I'm saying:



1. The DOI documents that God (Represented by the Holy Bible) is the support for which the declaration was made.

2. The DOI then holds the "Mind and Spirit" or fundamental principles of the United States.

3. The U.S. Constitution is the "Body and Letter" of the Declaration of Independence.

God holds up the DOI, DOI holds up the Constitution, Constitution holds our Country together.  But it all started with 12 men who signed their acknowledgement that it begins with God. 

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

No, they could not.  Within context the Declaration of Independence's reference to divine providence cannot be a reference to anything else but the Christian God because the phrase "Divine Providence" had only ever been used to describe the Guidance and Direction from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  

"This common definition of divine providence not only encompasses the attributes of God, but also His sovereignty over His creation. This definition in reference to God was common knowledge to America’s founders. They demonstrated this by using the term “Providence” in the final sentence of the Declaration of Independence in reference to God (2). "

What is the history of the word providence? 

The word providence has a long history that goes back many centuries to Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas. It also was adopted as a foundational belief of Catholic, Reformed, and Lutheran theology. Reformed theology, brought into Protestant mainstream by John Calvin, was a common belief of the early American settlers from Europe. For this reason, the capitalized version of the word, Providence, was commonly used to refer to God as their protector and provider. 

In American History, it was used by English Clergyman Roger Williams in 1636 when he had fled the Massachusetts Bay Colony to escape religious persecution. He settled in an area that he named Providence Plantations, which is known today as Providence, Rhode Island. There, he also founded the first Baptist church in America. His theological perspective on leaving the safety of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and trusting God for divine provision and protection was his motivation for naming the colony Providence plantation. The name Providence plantations continues to be part of the official state name of Rhode Island to this day. 

Providence can mean different things...but DIVINE Providence has only ever had one meaning.  

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk But how do you know this is the Christian god and not some abstract concept of a god, which exists independently of Christianity and in fact every religion?

The fact that many of the founding fathers wrestled with religious beliefs in a way that we would recognize as being more agnostic than strict adherence to any one belief. This is the point that I am trying to make.

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

If you seriously believe that I haven't demonstrated that Divine Providence cannot be anything other than a reference to the Christian God then you haven't reviewed the references I've clearly cited...at this point we're back at "Nah uh" as a response to the evidence I've provided.

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

How do I know?  I'm using inference.  

Example: If throughout history the only knife that ever existed on the planet was a butcher's knife then when someone made a reference to a knife in the year 1776 in a document...I could safely infer that they were referring to a butcher's knife.

Likewise, the only reference to "Divine Providence" in 1776 or prior in the United States was specifically regarding the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Ergo I can safely infer that any reference made by someone in the United States to "Divine Providence" in the year 1776 must have been specifically referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Also...I know because there was never a reference to an abstract version of "A God" anywhere else in the Founders' writings.  Were there any example of the founders making a reference to some abstract God that exists independently of Christianity and every other religion then I'd have reason to believe it was possible.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk Did you review my references where I showed that the foundation for the idea of divine providence comes from Greek philosophy of Divine command, and would therefore not be truly Christian in origin?

Here it is again:
https://www.iep.utm.edu/divine-c/

Vaulk

Happy_Killbot said:

@Vaulk Did you review my references where I showed that the foundation for the idea of divine providence comes from Greek philosophy of Divine command, and would therefore not be truly Christian in origin?

Here it is again:
https://www.iep.utm.edu/divine-c/

You really need to read that article yourself.  The article you just linked to me is talking about "Divine Command Theory" and YES, the theory itself started in Greek philosophy and specifically talks about God...as in the Christian God.

This is an excerpt from the exact article you just linked to me:

Philosophers both past and present have sought to defend theories of ethics that are grounded in a theistic framework. Roughly, Divine Command Theory is the view that morality is somehow dependent upon God, and that moral obligation consists in obedience to God’s commands. 

Click the word "God" and see where it takes you.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk

Then lets say from your example about knives that there is a reference to using sharp bones for cutting animal hide from another civilization. Could we now conclude that they were not talking about the knife, but in fact that the idea for a knife came from this earlier idea about using bones for cutting flesh?

This is what is happening with Divine command theory and Divine providence. They are incantations of the same idea, but from different times. It is likely that the idea for a knife came from the idea of sharpened bones, so can we really say that all knives are butchers knives when there are other tools for butchering?

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

You're taking something that is so incredibly unlikely and unconventional as a rational explanation and forgetting the fact that this was America in 1776 when the reference to Divine Providence was made and you're mixing the two together to suggest that, somehow, the founding fathers might have been referencing some obscure version of a God.

The chances of this being the case are so abysmal that....well you would have to operate on the belief that "No matter what, I refuse to believe that this was the Christian God" in order to believe this.  

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

You're essentially making the case that I'd have to resurrect one of the founding fathers and bring him to you to tell you that they were talking about the Christian God in order for you to believe it.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk Divine command theory predates Christianity by hundreds of years.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk Yes actually, you would have to do that for me to be satisfied, and frankly I don't understand why people don't need this level of certainty when they are jumping up and down saying we should ban all Muslims and make homosexuality illegal.

The fact of the matter is that we don't know for sure what the founding fathers intended, and as long as there is any possibility that they were not intending to create a Christian nation, we should not assume that this is the case.

On top of this, as more and more people are leaving religion, I think it is important that the stigma around atheism and agnosticism be forgotten, because even the founding father's religious beliefs are questionable, so why should we go out of our way to make non-religious candidates non-electable?

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot

Well thank you for clarifying.  Since you've established the standard of impossibility in order to prove something to you then I'll take that victory and thank you kindly for participating.

The objective of debate is to open your mind to alternative ideas and to facilitate edification.  If you choose to hold such an impossibly high standard for belief then I hold commiseration for you and I wish you the best of luck in the future.