Using Reason And Logic

ZeusAres42

No, that is not reasonable to think that this is the case. There are times when Theists are using logical reasoning and there are times when they are not. The same is also true for Non-Theists.

Normal_1

"No, that is not reasonable to think that this is the case. There are times when Theists are using logical reasoning and there are times when they are not. The same is also true for Non-Theists."

I think you are trying to neutralize the argument by resorting to the "both sides do the same" tactic.

If you were to look at the "degree" of reason and logic used by theists and atheists you will see a clear difference.
For example, it is an established fact that anybody who believes in God is deluded.
delusion: "an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder"

And, given that theists practically live their belief 24/7 it is reasonable to conclude that theists do not use logic and reasoning to a far greater degree than atheists.

@ZeusAres42

ZeusAres42

Normal_1 said:

"No, that is not reasonable to think that this is the case. There are times when Theists are using logical reasoning and there are times when they are not. The same is also true for Non-Theists."

I think you are trying to neutralize the argument by resorting to the "both sides do the same" tactic.

If you were to look at the "degree" of reason and logic used by theists and atheists you will see a clear difference.
For example, it is an established fact that anybody who believes in God is deluded.
delusion: "an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder"

And, given that theists practically live their belief 24/7 it is reasonable to conclude that theists do not use logic and reasoning to a far greater degree than atheists.

@ZeusAres42

@Normal_1 Multiple human beings do things on a daily bases devoid of any logic or reason regardless if they are Theists or not. You also say that someone is deluded if they believe in God. Are you saying they are deluded because they believe in God devoid of reason and logic?

piloteer

ZeusAres42 said:

No, that is not reasonable to think that this is the case. There are times when Theists are using logical reasoning and there are times when they are not. The same is also true for Non-Theists.

"@ZeusAres42

 I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. When it comes to the Abrahamic faiths, they can only tell us what there God is not, what their heaven wont be, and what truths we can never know, but they can never tell us what any of those things are. They negate any logic or reason when it comes to their religion. I'm not gonna lie here, I lifted that entire argument from Ayn Rand, and she was far more poetic about it, so here it is.

"They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth. The mystics of spirit call it "another dimension," which consists of denying dimensions. The mystics of muscle call it "the future," which consists of denying the present. To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to give to their superior realm? They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All their identifications consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say—and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge—God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out."

[Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged]

When it comes to logic and reason, Ayn Rand had that  s h i t  on lock.

 But that obviously does not leave out the possibility of logic and reason in other areas of religious peoples lives,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I guess?

ZeusAres42

@piloteer How dare you disagree with me. I am currently throwing my toys now out the window now and will cry myself to sleep. Joke btw obviously.  In all seriousness though what I mean is that it's not reasonable to assert that is Theist is illogical about all things all the time in everyday life just because they are a Theist.

piloteer

ZeusAres42 said:

@piloteer How dare you disagree with me. I am currently throwing my toys now out the window now and will cry myself to sleep. Joke btw obviously.  In all seriousness though what I mean is that it's not reasonable to assert that is Theist is illogical about all things all the time in everyday life just because they are a Theist.

"@ZeusAres42

 I agree with you that being thiest does not make logic and reason impossible in all aspects of their lives. But being that they are thiest, and that may be a pivotal aspect of their identity, and that- in and of itself is contrary to logic and reason, it can be argued that they are inherently illogical and unreasonable. It's kind of a slippery slope to argue they are devoid of the capability of logic and reason, but if their religious beliefs make up a large portion of who they are, the obvious goes without saying. Please do not cry if I do not totally agree with you here. I agree with you somewhat. And if you have any legos in your toy box, I would strongly suggest you do not ever throw those away. Legos have literally been a better investment in the last 40 years than gold. They are a very good thing to hang onto.        

Normal_1

"Multiple human beings do things on a daily bases devoid of any logic or reason regardless if they are Theists or not."

You have used the same response previously   ..........

"There are times when Theists are using logical reasoning and there are times when they are not."

.....yet this time you are attempting to neutralize the argument by ignoring the qualification that I already provided as a factual answer which was completely backed up by evidence.

Anyone who believes in God is deluded and since it is reasonable to assume that since religion is a constant influence on such believers, delusional thoughts will be a constant influence and therefore constantly influence the degree of reason and logic that person applies to every-day decision making.
@ZeusAres42

ZeusAres42

Normal_1 said:

"Multiple human beings do things on a daily bases devoid of any logic or reason regardless if they are Theists or not."

You have used the same response previously   ..........

"There are times when Theists are using logical reasoning and there are times when they are not."

.....yet this time you are attempting to neutralize the argument by ignoring the qualification that I already provided as a factual answer which was completely backed up by evidence.

Anyone who believes in God is deluded and since it is reasonable to assume that since religion is a constant influence on such believers, delusional thoughts will be a constant influence and therefore constantly influence the degree of reason and logic that person applies to every-day decision making.
@ZeusAres42

@Normal_1
Yes, I understand that. Now, can you answer this: "Are you saying that those that believe in God are deluded because they believe in something not based on logic or reason? All I am doing here is asking you a question.

Normal_1

"Yes, I understand that. Now, can you answer this: "Are you saying that those that believe in God are deluded because they believe in something not based on logic or reason? All I am doing here is asking you a question."

Okay, I get you there.
I am saying that those who believe in God are deluded, full stop, period.
I backed up the fact by quoting the definition from the Oxford Dictionary.
Since I am not the writer nor publisher I suggest that you contact the Oxford Dictionary Press to have your question answered.


@ZeusAres42

ZeusAres42

Normal_1 said:

"Yes, I understand that. Now, can you answer this: "Are you saying that those that believe in God are deluded because they believe in something not based on logic or reason? All I am doing here is asking you a question."

Okay, I get you there.
I am saying that those who believe in God are deluded, full stop, period.
I backed up the fact by quoting the definition from the Oxford Dictionary.
Since I am not the writer nor publisher I suggest that you contact the Oxford Dictionary Press to have your question answered.


@ZeusAres42

I am asking you for why you believe those that believe in God are deluded? My question has nothing to do with wanting to know the reasons for a defined term. Hence I do not need to contact the Oxford dictionary. I would like to get a clear picture of what you are getting at so I can make an accurate response rather than me assuming what your getting at. 

ZeusAres42

@Normal_1 whoops. I just noticed that I missed a part of what you wrote which kind of does answering the question I've been asking you. Anyway, I'll get back to that later.

MayCaesar

@Normal_1

Many people misunderstand logic. They are trapped in their own logical framework, not realising that, in principle, there is infinity of different frameworks.

There can exist frameworks in which belief in god is completely logical, despite the lack of apparent evidence. I actually like telling religious people that I believe in Aphrodite, and when they try to demonstrate how my belief is irrational, they find suddenly that it is not nearly as easy to do as they thought. I can fully logically explain how one can believe in Aphrodite based on a completely rational approach, in a somewhat metaphorical sense. In a sense, you can choose what to believe and make it work in your personal world view.

Note that the assumption that, in order to declare the existence of something, its direct evidence should exist, is just an axiom and does not have to hold in every single logical framework. It holds in the scientific framework, but there is more to human mind than just scientific thinking. In principle, there is nothing wrong with assuming the position that "Whatever I choose to believe is true", and our mind is extremely cunning at tweaking our perceptions into supporting whatever it is we believe.

If you believe, for example, that people in general are evil, then your mind will make a short work out of finding evidence to support this belief. If you believe that you are unable to financially succeed in life, then your mind will work in a way that makes it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is not just pure psychology; there is more to it than that, and with time I came to believe that, in fact, your beliefs define your personal reality.
A person who very-very deeply believes in god, in a way, creates that god in their personal world. Whatever you believe in tends to materialise in your life.

I will say in conclusion that we all tend to believe that we understand the world much better than we actually do. If you pay close attention to your thoughts, you will see that you are terrible even at the most basic thinking. A phone rings at an inconvenient moment, and you say, "Gah, not this again", even though you have absolutely no idea who is calling, and it is quite possible that this phone call is going to dramatically change your life for the better. We make so many far-fetched assumptions about everything that it is amazing how we manage to survive at all.
Someone believing in god is deluded? Hey, that is a fairly mild belief, compared to what even the clearest thinkers in the history of mankind have/had going on in their brains.

Normal_1

"I am asking you for why you believe those that believe in God are deluded? My question has nothing to do with wanting to know the reasons for a defined term. Hence I do not need to contact the Oxford dictionary. I would like to get a clear picture of what you are getting at so I can make an accurate response rather than me assuming what your getting at." 

I gave a very clear and concise picture.
Whether or not you want to know (or accept) the reasons for a defined term or chose to assume what I am getting at is an issue that only you can address or remedy.

My argument was accurate, unambiguous and as yet unopposed.

My argument stands.

@ZeusAres42

Normal_1

"Someone believing in god is deluded? Hey, that is a fairly mild belief, compared to what even the clearest thinkers in the history of mankind have/had going on in their brains."

Everyone suffers delusion/s to some degree at different times.
My contention is (by way of logic and reason) that because those who believe there is a God constantly maintain an idiosyncratic belief and are therefore prone to be constantly deluded thereby constantly compromising their ability to apply logic and reason to any given daily situation.
@MayCaesar

RickeyD

@Normal_1 ; Christians DO use reason and logic to verify the necessity of our Creator. It is the Atheist that has been deemed the "fool," the that is "without excuse." Atheism is an untenable psychosis, a refusal or inability to discern the reality that confronts them daily and nightly. It is atheism that is a terminal diagnosis of death in sin and death in Hell.

RickeyD

@Normal_1 ; Christians DO use reason and logic to verify the necessity of our Creator. It is the Atheist that has been deemed the "fool," the deceiver that is "without excuse." Atheism is an untenable psychosis, a refusal or inability to discern the reality that confronts them daily and nightly. It is atheism that is a terminal diagnosis of death in sin and death in Hell.

RickeyD

@Normal_1 ; Christians DO use reason and logic to verify the necessity of our Creator. It is the Atheist that has been deemed as foolish, deceiver that is "without excuse." Atheism is an untenable psychosis, a refusal or inability to discern the reality that confronts them daily and nightly. It is atheism that is a terminal diagnosis of hopelessness in sin and a finality in Hell.

RickeyD

@Normal_1 ; Christians DO use reason and logic to verify the necessity of our Creator. It is the Atheist that has been deemed as foolish, deceiver that is "without excuse." Atheism is an untenable psychosis, a refusal or inability to discern the reality that confronts them daily and nightly. It is atheism that is a terminal diagnosis of hopelessness in sin and a finality in Hell.

RickeyD

@Normal_1 ; Christians DO use reason and logic to verify the necessity of our Creator. It is the Atheist that has been deemed as foolish, a deceiver that is "without excuse."

RickeyD

@Normal_1 ; Christians DO use reason and logic to verify the necessity of our Creator. It is the Atheist that has been deemed as foolish, a deceiver that is "without excuse."

RickeyD

@Normal_1 ; Christians DO use reason and logic to verify the necessity of our Creator. It is the Atheist that fails at logic and reason.

piloteer

@RickeyD

Could you demonstrate how one goes about using logic to adhere to the supposed values of a deity that you’ve never heard, never seen, and never spoken to?

RickeyD

@piloteer ; I know Him and His Spirit lives within me. He has walked among us for 33.5-years and demonstrated God to mankind and He placed before you our supernatural creation and has explained who, what, where, when, why and how through His written word that has been preserved down through the ages for YOU. You have no excuse and unless you repent and pursue my Lord with all your heart, you will NEVER know Him and you will die in your sin and lose your soul in Hell.

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD That isn't a logical argument, that's an argument from emotion.

Do what I say or else!

You don't have a logical reason to be Christian do you?

You became a christian to justify your pathetic life and calm your anxieties and fear of death. That is why you keep screaming "praise the lord or go to hell" because that is the argument that worked on you. You are afraid.

piloteer

@RickeyD

I was asking for logical reasoning. That wasn't an objective or even an empirical argument at all.  

RickeyD

@piloteer ; You don't possess the capacity or the ability to understand the Truth of the Spiritual...I can't help you with that.  You are dead spiritually and living without hope. It is illogical to look at nature, its design and deny a Creator...this is indicative of obfuscation-denial and self-deceit and/or spiritual blindness resulting from the deception of Naturalism/Darwinism.

Theists are accused of an absence of logic and reason in their abiding faith and belief but you cannot explain one aspect of origin, meaning, morality, destiny...you're completely clueless while the Holy Spirit has explained these things with logical consistency, experiential relevance, empirical adequacy yet you don't believe. The atheist is the one absent logic and reason, commonsense, observational awareness, wisdom and discernment. Atheism is a lie.