Science deniers say that life begins at spanking. Doctor spanks at birth & voila, LIFE!

Happy_Killbot

@We_are_accountable Don't you think that evolution is wrong or something?

Also, isn't flat earth theory fundamentally constructed on the bible?

I fail to see how science can ever claim that life starts at any point, since that is a semantics game more than anything else. "life" isn't a real thing, it is a short hand for metabolic processes that contain the ability to grow, reproduce, and change as distinguished from inorganic material.

Saying: "life starts at conception"

is just as guilty as:

"Life starts at birth"

is just as guilty as:

"Sperm and ovules are alive, so life starts before conception"

Where you draw the line is arbitrary.

This isn't scientific, it's semantics. No one wins when you argue semantics!

ZeusAres42

Happy_Killbot said:

@We_are_accountable


I fail to see how science can ever claim that life starts at any point, since that is a semantics game more than anything else. "life" isn't a real thing, it is a short hand for metabolic processes that contain the ability to grow, reproduce, and change as distinguished from inorganic material.

@Happy_Killbot It's at this bit I think you make a good point and interestingly enough it's actually in align with what's also known as "Metabolic View"

Metabolic View:

The metabolic view takes the stance that a single developmental moment marking the beginning of human life does not exist. Both the sperm and egg cells should individually be considered to be units of life in the same respect as any other single or multicellular organism. Thus, neither the union of two gametes nor any developmental point thereafter should be designated as the beginning of new life.

Another slightly different though similar position maintains that the argument over when a new human life begins is irrelevant because the development of a child is a smoothly continuous process. Discrete marking points such as the fourteen day dividing line between a zygote and an embryo are entirely artificial constructions of biologists and doctors in order to better categorize development for academic purposes. This position is supported by recent research that has revealed that fertilization itself is not even an instantaneous event, but rather a process that takes 20-22 hours between the time the sperm penetrates the outermost layers of the egg and the formation of a diploid cell (Kuhse 1988).

http://science.jburroughs.org/mbahe/BioEthics/Articles/Whendoeshumanlifebegin.pdf

Saying: "life starts at conception"

is just as guilty as:

"Life starts at birth"

is just as guilty as:

"Sperm and ovules are alive, so life starts before conception"

Where you draw the line is arbitrary.

This isn't scientific, it's semantics. No one wins when you argue semantics!

I cannot agree with everything being said here by the way. As for life beginning before conception, you're right. It doesn't start before conception; it actually starts way, way, way before conception.

In all seriousness, the fact that eggs and sperm are alive that does mean that the state of being alive in some form does exist before the point of conception. I've stated this before but what I do not mean is that there is an exact point at which life has begun before conception because of sperm and egg cells being alive. If that makes sense?

Happy_Killbot

@ZeusAres42 That more or less sums it up. The next question is what should we do with all of the "stop denying science" crowd?

The hypocrisy is the real threat here, declaring that everyone is a science denier who doesn't agree with your political agenda. Politics should never dictate scientific truth.

We_are_accountable

@Happy_Killbot

We already clarified that the Bible never says the earth is flat, yet here you are repeating the deception. This is why I will ignore you. There can be no debate with deceptive people.

Under your logic, we can not definitively say you are a human life worth protecting. This is the sickness of your no fault belief system. Most anything goes as long as the activist group has enough power to make it legal.

Science is just twisted to fit their anything goes agendas.

I've got better things to do then debate that lunacy.

Happy_Killbot

@We_are_accountable If you watch debates with flat earthers, they do bring up scripture occasionally. It's not that the bible explicitly says the earth is flat, it is that some people can interpret certain passages to decide the earth is flat and the bible agrees.

No one is automatically worth protecting just because they are human. We chose to because it is most beneficial to society to do so, this is a completely separate debate, which if you are down, I debate with you personally, with a third party moderator on a topic and title we have mutually agreed on.

Science isn't supposed to be twisted to fit any agenda, the problem is that politics does so and at an alarming rate, such as what you have done above.

For example:

"Science shows that most people who get shot die. Therefore we must ban guns"

vs.

"Science shows that most people who get shot die. Therefore we must shoot our enemies"

Both have the same fallacious characteristics, they use the objective truth, which is that getting shot typically leads to death, and twist it to meet their own political agenda.

This is what you have done above:

"Science shows that a zygote has unique DNA and is alive. Therefore it is a person and deserving of our protection"

If true, must mean that:

"Science shows that sperm and ovules are alive. Therefore they are people and deserving of our protection"

We_are_accountable

@Happy_Killbot

LOL, back to your zygotes, sperm and ovules to excuse your support of aborting viable babies for any reason!

IGNORE 

John_C_87

We_are_accountable said:

@Happy_Killbot

LOL, back to your zygotes, sperm and ovules to excuse your support of aborting viable babies for any reason!

IGNORE 

It's not ignored all woman who menstruates without pregnancy is performing an abortion placing a woman in a united state. This is a united state created between abortion and pregnancy that creates all women as equal by their creator. Now all women can have a female-specific amputation which unites all women as equal by their creator, the united state here is between women and lethal force.

Prejudice is the only thing that had been ignored for over 50 years and the funny thing is it was done by using prejudice.

Happy_Killbot

@We_are_accountable Guess you won't debate me then, because you know that you would lose!

ZeusAres42

I think this whole post is nothing more than just one long rant. I would not say it fits the description of what an actual debate is supposed to be about. Rants are not debates.

Here are some tips on how to present an argument:

• Decide on what it is you want to argue.
  
• Be clear and concise in your communication.
  
• It needs premises and a conclusion.
• Gather evidence.
• Think of counter-arguments and then think about you might refute the counter-arguments.
  
• Proofread what you have written.
  
• Avoid common fallacies.
  
• Be fair to your opponent.
• Consider opposing points of view.
  
• Avoid platitudes.
  
• Be Specific.
  
• Make it easy for your opponent to change their mind
• Don't take things personally
• Use citations when and where necessary
  

I understand that these tips may seem more applicable to a formal debate. However, I think these tips will put you in good stead whether you are engaged in an informal or formal debate. Please note that I am being helpful here and that's it.

References/Resources:

• https://www.oxford-royale.com/articles/construct-compelling-argument.html#aId=d979939f-1ee6-4a1f-9580-c9f3fc2af710
• https://qmplus.qmul.ac.uk/pluginfile.php/1848555/mod_resource/content/1/Colin Swatridge - Oxford Guide to Effective Argument and Critical Thinking (2014, Oxford University Press) copy.pdf

We_are_accountable

@ZeusAres42

If you think calling my debate a "rant", and then saying you are being helpful here?

I think you need to be educated on to how to talk to people if you want to be helpful to them.

I won't be so condescending as to make a list of tips on how to be helpful.

The way I structure my debates is providing many examples as evidence supporting my argument. If you can refute that evidence, please do so. If you want to waste my time ridiculing it, go find another debate structured to your liking.

This is not a College course on the proper rules of debating, it's a debate site. I can gather the point of any debate and refute or agree with it's conclusion.
I could not care less if it is done according to hoyle.

Most of us can understand what people are trying to get across in their debates. Why would I insult them if not done properly? Personal insults does nothing more than destroy debates. You might want to read your rules once more.

ZeusAres42

We_are_accountable said:

@ZeusAres42

If you think calling my debate a "rant", and then saying you are being helpful here?

I think you need to be educated on to how to talk to people if you want to be helpful to them.

I won't be so condescending as to make a list of tips on how to be helpful.

The way I structure my debates is providing many examples as evidence supporting my argument. If you can refute that evidence, please do so. If you want to waste my time ridiculing it, go find another debate structured to your liking.

This is not a College course on the proper rules of debating, it's a debate site. I can gather the point of any debate and refute or agree with it's conclusion.
I could not care less if it is done according to hoyle.

Most of us can understand what people are trying to get across in their debates. Why would I insult them if not done properly? Personal insults does nothing more than destroy debates. You might want to read your rules once more.

@We_are_accountable It was not my intention to be condescending. However, even if I was that is irrelevant to the validity of the tips that I provided you with. Also, I did not insult you anywhere. I believe almost anyone can present a good reasonable argument regardless of their views. I just don't think the way you are doing it is very good at the moment. I also say that your OP comes across as much more of a rant than an actual argument.

By saying that I think the OP is a rant is I am taking pure issues with the way in which you have structured your argument; what I am not doing is saying your argument is invalid because of a belief about your personal characteristics. So, no personal insults here.

Furthermore, you do not advance your position by  projecting the same critique back on the other party. 

 

MayCaesar

As a scientist, one of the most amusing things I ever see on the Internet is people accusing others of denying science, while making pseudo-scientific claims. We had one flat-Earther here who claimed he was the only one doing science, while making elementary school mistakes... Here we have another case of that, I guess.

You should know, OP, that modern abortion methods and sex reassignment procedures are developed at the cutting edge of science, and homosexualism is not seen by science as a deviation, but as a regular occurrence among countless animal species, including humans.

You took your mid-school biology class 30 years ago, where one teacher made some claims, and now you believe you know science? Alrighty then!

Dee

@We_are_accountable


**** We already clarified that the Bible never says the earth is flat, yet here you are repeating the deception. 

You’ve never read the Bible , not alone does it say it’s flat but it says it’s covered with a ......( drum roll) dome , does god clean the dome to let the light in ?

Wiki .....
In biblical cosmology, the firmament is the vast solid dome created by God on the second day to divide the primal sea (called tehom) into upper and lower portions so that the dry land could appear:

Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

*****This is why I will ignore you. There can be no debate with deceptive people.

Hilarious 

*****Under your logic, we can not definitively say you are a human life worth protecting. This is the sickness of your no fault belief system. Most anything goes as long as the activist group has enough power to make it legal.

zzzzzzzzz viable babies wail , wail , wail 

*****Science is just twisted to fit their anything goes agendas.

Of course that’s it , I often wondered what sort of imbeciles would vote Trump into power I guess you’re a class A specimen 

******I've got better things to do then debate that lunacy.

Yes you’d better get back to pondering how god put a glass dome over the Earth that’s the nearest you get to what you think is sanity 

We_are_accountable

@Dee

You say... dead viable babies, wail, wail, wail,

I bet nazi's said... dead Jews, wail, wail, wail,

You are one lost soul... very sad

IGNORE

We_are_accountable

@MayCaesar

You actually think there are Gay animals ou their? You are so mindlessly brainwashed by these LGBT activists, you repeat the same lies and distortions.

NEWSFLASH... THERE ARE NO GAY ANIMALS OUT THERE.

Do you see any Gay pets or livestock that we all deal with every day? NO! WHY NOT? If it happens in nature, we would be seeing them in our pets and farm animals. WE ARE NOT SEEING THEM!

An animal that would hump a fence post when aroused IS NOT GAY!
Geese that pair up with same sex Geese from lack of another opposite sex Geese ARE NOT GAY! They don't have sex, and they hang out together. BIG DEAL! It's sick the lies put out by these activists.

Apes who have sex with other same sex apes, do not refuse sex with the opposite sex apes. They would hump anything when aroused. THEY ARE NOT GAY!

Spew you brainwashed views to mindless people who swallow all the lies fro the Left. Yes, I took the Science of Biology before it was taken over by LGBT activists, THANK GOD!

We_are_accountable

@ZeusAres42

Oh, I see, I should not repay your insults with insults. I should just ignore your insults and look at them as being instructional.
I should accept anything you say as being the Gospel, because you are the all knowing Debate Professor.

When you start listening to your same rules, and stop insuting people on how they structure their debates, I will follow in kind.

Newsflash, calling someone's debate a rant... IS AN INSULT! To be so arrogant to not admit your faults, means you lack the simple character to admit when you are wrong. I can not debate such a person.

Happy_Killbot

@We_are_accountable

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150206-are-there-any-homosexual-animals

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/magazine/04animals-t.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2004/07/homosexual-animals-debate/

https://www.dw.com/en/10-animal-species-that-show-how-being-gay-is-natural/g-39934832

Who is brainwashed?

We_are_accountable

@Happy_Killbot

YOU ARE BRAINWASHED AS ALWAYS!

I've read all these fake news Pro Gay drivel, and not one of them shws us a true Gay animal!

They show us animals who have sex with anythng that moves, male or female, which would be called BISEXUAL were it not animals that would hump a fence post when aroused.

THERE ARE NO GAY ANIMALS WHO REFUSE SEX WITH THE OPPOSITE SAME SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That would be Gay!

Funny how you have not shown me a Gay pet, dog, cat, etc. Where are they? Ohhhhhhhh, I guess in those species, nature did not randomly create diverse sexuality. Wonder why? If homosexuality is naturally occurring in nature, why were pets left out of all that natural stuff?

SPARE US YOUR BRAINWASHING!

smoothie

@Happy_Killbot Don't even try to reason any evidence with him. He only would accept anecdotal evidence about gay animals from personal experience and reject studies by professionals always. We can give literally every piece of evidence to him but it will still be rejected no matter who studied it. He will never accept any other result unless it's promoting his personal opinions. Anything else, its "FAKE NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

This is more proof of his trolling. He has already latched on to discussion of irrelevant topics in a thread about abortion. He even attacks people who are trying to help him learn how to debate as we have seen in this thread.

The rejection of evidence is his last resort and calling all scientific evidence that goes against his argument "brainwash". He then regurgitates the exact same biased opinion for the next thread. Very similar to RickeyD. It is an endless cycle, he's already at 243 points doing this.

I would recommend to stop giving him your time and focus on people who are actually trying to debate instead of cry and scream.

Happy_Killbot

@smoothie I really hate it how the deaf scream that everyone around them is blind

I hate it even more how people are unintentionally ironic unironically. 

I hate it the most when people put politics before science.

Some people can't handle the truth, and prefer to live in delusion, and a core component of that delusion is that everyone else is wrong and themselves, and only themselves, is right.

We_are_accountable

@Happy_Killbot

What amazes me is how blind you are because you just described yourself to a tee.

You deny the Science of Biology while preferring to live in the delusion of LGBT normalcy. Your delusion is that all those Christians and Conservatives are wrong about the Science of Biology and the natural design of our bodies, while only you and LGBT activists are right.

Your delusion is that the viable unborn life does not deserve the same right to life as you. Talk about delusion! Science says life begins art conception, but your selfish delusional world says convenience over rides Science. You prefer the delusion of an unborn life simply being a mass of cells rather then a living growing human being.

Look within yourself and see the hypocrite I see.

Happy_Killbot

@We_are_accountable Is it me, or are we just living in different realities?

In my reality, some animals have been observed demonstrating homosexual behavior and this is scientific fact. Perhaps not in yours.

On top of this, no conservative in the reality in which I reside denies that animals do this, and for the most part only want to preserve marriage for the purpose of raising children, which is being extended to homosexual parents who adopt. 

Only a small very small number of Christian minority are against LGBTQ rights on the grounds of it is against their religion.

ZeusAres42

We_are_accountable said:

@ZeusAres42

Oh, I see, I should not repay your insults with insults. I should just ignore your insults and look at them as being instructional.
I should accept anything you say as being the Gospel, because you are the all knowing Debate Professor.

When you start listening to your same rules, and stop insuting people on how they structure their debates, I will follow in kind.

Newsflash, calling someone's debate a rant... IS AN INSULT! To be so arrogant to not admit your faults, means you lack the simple character to admit when you are wrong. I can not debate such a person.

FYI, your current post here is a clear violation of rational argumentation. My purpose was to be helpful as you keep getting a lot of stick from people at the moment and that will continue if you go about your debating in this way. It's a critique of mine to say that your post is coming across as a rant. That is not an insult. You've appeared to have inferred implicit meanings behind my post where none exists.

I apologize if I have come across as condescending and insulting as that was not my intention here.

MayCaesar

@We_are_accountable

There is plenty of homosexual pets as reported by their owners. You must be living under a rock; homosexual pets go as far back as to Roman times, at the very least. And I knew it well before I even moved to the US. I used to live in a country outlawing "homosexual propaganda", so who was I brainwashed by again?

A non-scientist telling scientists that their positions are not scientific... Okay, , whatever you say.

ZeusAres42

MayCaesar said:

As a scientist, one of the most amusing things I ever see on the Internet is people accusing others of denying science, while making pseudo-scientific claims. We had one flat-Earther here who claimed he was the only one doing science, while making elementary school mistakes... Here we have another case of that, I guess.

You should know, OP, that modern abortion methods and sex reassignment procedures are developed at the cutting edge of science, and homosexualism is not seen by science as a deviation, but as a regular occurrence among countless animal species, including humans.

You took your mid-school biology class 30 years ago, where one teacher made some claims, and now you believe you know science? Alrighty then!

@MayCaesar I have to say that I am somewhat surprised. I noted that it actually takes you a lot to lose your patience usually. Assuming that my assumptions are correct that is. Nonetheless, I have to say you being able to keep you cool in debates more than 95% of the time is impeccable.

xlJ_dolphin_473

@We_are_accountable is correct. Biology books do not represent politically correct science. I agree with @We_are_accountable that we no longer need old fashioned biology books. Modern-day scientists are questioning the scientific practices of old, and making exciting new discoveries.

ZeusAres42

Happy_Killbot said:

@We_are_accountable Is it me, or are we just living in different realities?

In my reality, some animals have been observed demonstrating homosexual behavior and this is scientific fact. Perhaps not in yours.

On top of this, no conservative in the reality in which I reside denies that animals do this, and for the most part only want to preserve marriage for the purpose of raising children, which is being extended to homosexual parents who adopt. 

Only a small very small number of Christian minority are against LGBTQ rights on the grounds of it is against their religion.

@Happy_Killbot
I would just like to point out here that homosexual behavior is not the same thing as sexual attraction/orientation. There is a number of heterosexual animal species that have been observed to have exhibited homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom for certain kinds of purposes. But I agree homophobia is only seen in human beings.

John_C_87

Science deniers say that life begins at spanking. Doctor spanks at birth and voila, Life!

In other words, you are asking how the medical field was been given authority by a state of law over the pronunciation of official death, as a common defense without documentation of that life’s beginning?

There are simply several documentations of life’s beginning made by science. Did the state of law have a precedent to create all women as equal? If so, why was it not performed by as united state, as union of the law with this matter of governing?