Atheist obfuscation: "There is simply insufficient evidence for me to believe in God." Is this true?

AlofRI

In a word, YES. 

Happy_Killbot

@RickeyD If there is any evidence, that would be news to me. All of the things you wright are not really evidence for a god, gods, or other mythical beings unless you first make the assumption that god exists.

MayCaesar

Your question does not even make much sense. "Believing" is not something you do based on evidence; believing, by definition, is a leap of faith.

I am not saying that there is insufficient evidence for me to believe in god. There is instead zero evidence for me to suggest that god exists. "Belief" is not something I partake in in general, whether regarding religion or something else.

As for the prophecies, if you write your claims vaguely enough and if you interpret certain events forcefully enough, then you can declare anyone a messiah. I already suggested venerating Cleopatra instead of Jesus in another thread; want me to prove to you how Cleopatra fulfilled hundreds prophecies made by Phoenicians a thousand years before?

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; More atheistic obfuscation, deceit, lies. It's not that evidence is lacking but that you do not possess a heart that is willing to believe or you simply reject what is before you; therefore, atheism is truly an untenable psychosis, a mental illness of demonic proportions. Prophecy is settled...there is nothing obtuse or vague...Jesus perfectly fulfilled prophecies that were provided in the Old Covenant beginning 4000-years before His entrance into Time. These messianic prophecies are but one form of evidence that will testify against you at the Judgment of the Condemned before you're relegated to death in Hell as an unrepentant atheist.

Dee

Dee

obfuscation

/ɒbfʌsˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

1. the action of making something obscure, unclear, or unintelligible.

   "when confronted with sharp questions they resort to obfuscation"
   
   
   Apologies that very basic concepts are unclear to you here is a picture that might help ......you’re welcome 

RickeyD

@Dee ; Evolution is not science, it's baseless history for the fool that morphs one into an atheist providing obfuscation and a facade of justification for sexual immorality, narcissism, moral relativism, Hell. Evolution is the greatest lie ever told by "science." Without Jesus Christ as your Lord for the mediation of sin, you will die in sin and die in Hell in futility...your "science" cannot save you (John 8:24).

RickeyD

@Dee Evolution is not science, it's baseless history for the fool that morphs one into an atheist providing obfuscation and a facade of justification for sexual immorality, narcissism, moral relativism, Hell. Evolution is the greatest lie ever told by "science." Without Jesus Christ as your Lord for the mediation of sin, you will die in sin and die in Hell in futility...your "science" cannot save you (John 8:24).

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Of course I do not possess a heart willing to believe; a heart cannot believe anything, as that is not one of its functions. As for me, I do not believe anything until I see some concrete evidence, and that is a strategy that has worked well for me so far.

Not believing random words from a fantasy book is a mental illness? Okay then!

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; You lie to yourself and me concerning evidence and this is why you have destined yourself to die in sin and Hell...you are "without excuse."

Dee

@RickeyD

TGMasterX

Simply, yes. There is no evidence of God's existence.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Your ability to tell whether people's words are sincere by reading comments on the Internet is quite spectacular. Ever tried to capitalise on it?

Regardless, since I do not take the concepts of "sin" and "hell" seriously, I guess I am good!
Now, what spider type did that monk say I was going to reincarnate into again...

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; OK.  You have been told.

RickeyD

@Dee ; Again, there is no "evolution" concerning the origin and propagation of the species. You and I are created uniquely by the will of God who has done so in accordance with a specific Plan and purpose. You have allowed yourself to be led astray by man's philosophy for which there is zero-evidence. Without humbling yourself and repenting of your sin, sincerely believing-trusting in Jesus Christ as your Lord for the mediation of said sin, you will die in your sin and die a "second death" in Hell in futility. 

Dee

@RickeyD

RickeyD

@Dee ; You are not a nice person, Dee.

RickeyD

@Dee ; You are not a good person, Dee.

Dee

@RickeyD


***You  are not a good person, Dee

Wow! Getting judged by a Westboro Baptist ......you’ve hurt me real bad Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 

RickeyD

@Dee ; You are mean, spiteful, hateful...but this is not unusual when one serves darkness and exists in hopelessness.

ZeusAres42

I cannot believe there are people that still continue to read this nonsense from this guy. Oh well, more fool them I suppose.

MayCaesar

@ZeusAres42

Debating with such people is helpful at sharpening your debating skills, as well as thinking more about your positions, even if the opponent does not provide a helpful feedback or constructive criticism.

ZeusAres42

MayCaesar said:

@ZeusAres42

Debating with such people is helpful at sharpening your debating skills, as well as thinking more about your positions, even if the opponent does not provide a helpful feedback or constructive criticism.

@MayCaesar But this OP is hardly challenging! Sorry, but you've got to admit that. I mean I could just as easily create multiple debates arguing that all Bananas are Gods and rulers of the world and that anyone that doesn't think so is evil, bad, a liberal, a satanic worshiper, etc. And most of the people here now know that most of these posts from this guy are all , so the idea of appealing to other audiences won't wash either with me.

MayCaesar

@ZeusAres42

Well, in life we are going to have to defend our positions in front of all kinds of people, including those that do not really challenge them and employ countless fallacies instead. Practicing here helps prepare us for such cases.

Debating only with deep and logical debaters is going to have an adverse effect out in the world, where a lot of people are not so deep and logical.

ZeusAres42

MayCaesar said:

@ZeusAres42

Well, in life we are going to have to defend our positions in front of all kinds of people, including those that do not really challenge them and employ countless fallacies instead. Practicing here helps prepare us for such cases.

Debating only with deep and logical debaters is going to have an adverse effect out in the world, where a lot of people are not so deep and logical.

@MayCaesar the difference between this OP and a lot of other people in life we meet is that a lot of the time they're not like brick walls; we are actually learning something. My point, by the way, is not to be derivative. I just think some of you are better than that. Furthermore, the majority of what this guys post is nothing short of either preaching or trolling nonsense which most people (even those with slightly less than average intelligence) can figure out for themselves. So, like I said the appeal to win over other audiences doesn't wash either with respect to these particular posts. That's just my take anyway.

apple

I personally am an atheist, and here's my reasoning. Was religion not a way for people to explain things? Way back when, people didn't have as much understanding of how things worked. For instance, plagues were believed to be punishments from God. Well now we know more, and how they start and spread. We know know how everything started(Big Bang Theory). God creating the world(and Galaxy, etc.) was a way for people to explain what they couldn't understand.

RickeyD

@apple ; The "Big Bang" theory has been debunked and no man or woman can or ever will explain the intricacies of our origin yet the Holy Spirit, in the Scriptures, has articulated who, what, where, when, why and how concerning God's creation and His plan and purposes for Time, Eternity and your life. Christianity is the only coherent worldview with corresponding truth that defines origin-meaning-morality-destiny and directly answers with logical consistency, empirical adequacy, experiential relevance. There is ONE God and ONE Mediator for sin, Jesus Christ. When you deny the Scriptures and Jesus Christ as Lord for the mediation of your sin, you exist in hopelessness and you will NOT see life in God's Kingdom subsequent to the death of your body in Time. God loves you and He suffered and died to provide you a pardon from death in sin and Hell (John 3:16).

Secular Scientists Blast the Big Bang

https://creation.com/secular-scientists-blast-the-big-bang

No one knows how the Universe Began:

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/bb_whycare.htm

Science Still Doesn't Know How The Universe Exists

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bridaineparnell/2017/10/26/science-still-doesnt-know-how-the-universe-exists/#3e5a8eab37f8

The Big Bang Wasn't The Beginning, After All

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/09/21/the-big-bang-wasnt-the-beginning-after-all/#6f2a523c55df

Dee

@RickeyD

Ahhh poor Rwicky is all Butt hurt again ......

MayCaesar

@ZeusAres42

I do not think I am better than someone else; I am certainly not above talking to anyone about anything. I have met examples of people like Rickey in the real world, and it is helpful to have some practice of conversing with them.  I respond to arguments, not to people, in general on this type of websites, and dismantling poorly thought out arguments is a bit of my hobby!

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; You think way too much of yourself in your atheistic ignorance and hopelessness. You dismantle nothing but expose your own ideological futility and under gird the reality of Scripture articulating the mindlessness of the atheist and their hardened and impenitent heart.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

Oh, but you are thinking that you are better than me. It is called pride. It is a sin according to your scribbles, punishable by eternal suffering... Repent, Rickey, repent before the Great Potato Monster!

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; I am but a sinner saved by grace...you are a petulant atheist living in wilful spiritual ignorance. This does not make me better than you...simply one who is willing to seek Truth honestly and live by the results as opposed to living a lie in naturalism. Again, you mock in spiritual ignorance and laugh and scorn but you will not have the last laugh, atheist.

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

Fair enough.

Agility_Dude

I haven't posted on debate island in over a year. It's good to be back. I didn't think that anyone thoroughly responded to your points @RickeyD so I will try my best to respond.

I would first like to discuss your characterization that there are no true atheists and that they all deny god. I would characterize myself as a soft atheist, meaning that I am not convinced that there is a god, but I don't have any degree of certainty on whether a god exists or not. I don't know if this would be considered "denial" or not. I acknowledge the possibility that a god could exist, but I have not been presented with sufficient evidence to warrant such a belief.

I was raised in a Roman Catholic household where I believed in a god, and I even went to schools under a catholic education board for 4 years of my life, but as time went on, I started questioning more and more at a young age what I was being taught. My first time that I can remember questioning theological concepts that I had learned was when I was 8. Eventually I stopped believing in a god, and even though it may have at first been for reasons that I today consider irrational, I have reasons that I have formulated over the years for why I don't believe. Today I am 15 years old, and I still don't believe in a god.

I say this because I want you to know that I was a believer for a long time, but in my attempt to reason about whether or not god exists, I came to the conclusion that I don't know whether or not a god exists, and I may have bad reasons, but I'm not in denial about the existence of a god.

Now let's get into your arguments.

1) Nature

From what I understand, you are saying that the universe has a complex design, and that only complex designs must come from a creator, so therefore a god must have created the universe.

The main fallacy that I see in this argument is that you assume that complex designs must come from a creator. These complex arrangements of matter are only existent as a result of the big bang, so we can say that the universe and nature were caused by the big bang, and as for what caused the big bang, we don't know.

In fact, I believe that you even said in your post that we are limited in our ability to understand the origin of matter, so I believe that we both agree that we don't know what caused the universe, at least not with any certainty.

To say that because we don't know what caused the universe, so it must have been god, and more specifically the god of the bible is an example of the fallacy argumentum ad ignorantiam, or the argument of ignorance fallacy.

2) The Incarnation of God in time

Regarding the historical existence of Jesus, you didn't give any specifics about what is said in historical documents that demonstrates the existence of Jesus Christ. If you gave specifics, I would be more than happy to go through them with you.

About the fact that Jesus was said to have fulfilled prophesies in the bible, I could write a book right now that has a prophesy in it that says that I will fly off a mountain, and then write a second book that says that I flew off a mountain, but that is no indication of whether or not I actually fulfilled prophesy. I believe Matt Dillahunty made this argument in a rather amusing way when he asked "If I order a steak medium rare, and I get one, did I fulfill prophesy?"

3) The Written Covenant between God and Mankind

From what I read here, it seems like you only asserted that the holy spirit spoke to different people, but do you have any evidence to back this up? I would need evidence to properly respond to this argument.



I hope that I didn't miss anything and if anything that I said about your arguments was inaccurate, let me know.

RickeyD

1) You are no different than the demons that will suffer in Hell...you believed in God, you "did" well, the demons believe in God and tremble with fear (James 2:19). Where you've stumbled is denying Jesus Christ as your Lord for the mediation of your sins. Religions, cults, sects, around the World believe in "God"...and they're headed to the "second death" in Hell. The differentiation between cults, religions, you and Christianity is that Christianity believes what Jesus said about Himself; that is, He is God and unless you believe that He is deity and that He died for your sins, you will die in Hell (John 8:24).

2) "Soft Atheists" will die in Hell just like any other unbeliever...there is no difference (John 3:36). If you reject Jesus Christ as Lord, you have no hope in this life or in the life to come!

3) You were raised in a pagan cult known as Roman Catholicism. You have never known the love of Jesus Christ nor have you possessed the indwelling Holy Spirit; had you, you would not be a lost, deceived, dying in sin atheist.

4) - 1. I assume nothing about nature and its irrefutable, empirical, evidence relevant to our Creator...it is the Holy Spirit, the Author of all Scripture, that has told you that Nature is God's preliminary evidence concerning His reality, dominion, power and authority over creation and anyone, including you, who denies this truism is a , a "fool," "without excuse" (See Romans 1:18-32...you are free to call the Holy Spirit a but this too will be judged in Eternity (Matthew 12:36).

5) - 2. You err in believing demonic apostates like Matt Dillahunty over the Holy Spirit. This is evidence of your lack of wisdom and the fact that you're spiritually dead (1 Corinthians 2:14), spiritually blinded by your father, Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4; John 8:44). If you follow the insanity of "men" (demons) like Dillahunty, Gervais, Hitchens, Ra, Harris, Dawkins, you will die in Hell along with them (Psalm 118:8-9) and you'll have no one to blame but yourself...I have warned you!

6) - 3. Concerning God's written covenant to mankind via the Holy Scriptures. The "evidence" is before you to read and internalize or reject...it's up to you (2 Timothy 2:15). God the Holy Spirit has articulated in detail the Covenant of Grace established in the sinless blood of Jesus Christ for you (Matthew 26:28; John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21) in order to provide you a pardon from death in sin and death in Hell by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as YOUR Lord for the mediation of your sins (John 3:18).

You have but two-options concerning your eternal destiny:

1 - Trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord, find forgiveness for you sins and find life in Eternity subsequent to the death of your body in Time (John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:8).

2 - Reject Jesus Christ as your Lord, die in your sins (John 8:24) and die the "second death" in Hell (Revelation 20:11-15). The "choice" is yours to make.

MayCaesar

@RickeyD

According to you, it seems, everyone but you will go to hell, because there is virtually no one out there who believes in the exact set of claims you do. You are going to be lonely in heaven, poor boy...

You also still refuse to acknowledge that your "scriptures" are just writings of random people from the past. They are not evidence of anything, not any more than Lord of the Rings is. Have you never questioned whether learning about the world by ancient books, rather than by personal observation and rational thinking, might not be the best approach in existence?

Try some day to not use your books as a crutch for a while and, instead of these endless quotations and memes, speak your own mind. Otherwise you will always be controlled by other people, who do not necessarily wish you good.

RickeyD

Incorrect. Those who approach God the Father His Way will find righteousness (a right standing) with Him. The only Way to find life in Eternity is by repenting of sin and believing in your heart with sincerity, confessing with your mouth that Jesus Christ is God who died to pay your sin-debt and that He was resurrected for your justification leading to Eternal life (Romans 10:9-10)...without Jesus as your Lord to mediate your sin-debt, you will die in your sin and die in Hell with the "many." John 14:6

RickeyD

@Agility_Dude

1) You are no different than the demons that will suffer in Hell...you believed in God, you "did" well, the demons believe in God and tremble with fear (James 2:19). Where you've stumbled is denying Jesus Christ as your Lord for the mediation of your sins. Religions, cults, sects, around the World believe in "God"...and they're headed to the "second death" in Hell. The differentiation between cults, religions, you and Christianity is that Christianity believes what Jesus said about Himself; that is, He is God and unless you believe that He is deity and that He died for your sins, you will die in Hell (John 8:24).

2) "Soft Atheists" will die in Hell just like any other unbeliever...there is no difference (John 3:36). If you reject Jesus Christ as Lord, you have no hope in this life or in the life to come!

3) You were raised in a pagan cult known as Roman Catholicism. You have never known the love of Jesus Christ nor have you possessed the indwelling Holy Spirit; had you, you would not be a lost, deceived, dying in sin atheist.

4) - 1. I assume nothing about nature and its irrefutable, empirical, evidence relevant to our Creator...it is the Holy Spirit, the Author of all Scripture, that has told you that Nature is God's preliminary evidence concerning His reality, dominion, power and authority over creation and anyone, including you, who denies this truism is a , a "fool," "without excuse" (See Romans 1:18-32...you are free to call the Holy Spirit a but this too will be judged in Eternity (Matthew 12:36).

5) - 2. You err in believing demonic apostates like Matt Dillahunty over the Holy Spirit. This is evidence of your lack of wisdom and the fact that you're spiritually dead (1 Corinthians 2:14), spiritually blinded by your father, Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4; John 8:44). If you follow the insanity of "men" (demons) like Dillahunty, Gervais, Hitchens, Ra, Harris, Dawkins, you will die in Hell along with them (Psalm 118:8-9) and you'll have no one to blame but yourself...I have warned you!

6) - 3. Concerning God's written covenant to mankind via the Holy Scriptures. The "evidence" is before you to read and internalize or reject...it's up to you (2 Timothy 2:15). God the Holy Spirit has articulated in detail the Covenant of Grace established in the sinless blood of Jesus Christ for you (Matthew 26:28; John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:21) in order to provide you a pardon from death in sin and death in Hell by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as YOUR Lord for the mediation of your sins (John 3:18).

You have but two-options concerning your eternal destiny:

1 - Trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord, find forgiveness for you sins and find life in Eternity subsequent to the death of your body in Time (John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:8).

2 - Reject Jesus Christ as your Lord, die in your sins (John 8:24) and die the "second death" in Hell (Revelation 20:11-15). The "choice" is yours to make.

I urge you to perform a diligent read/perhaps an exegesis on the "Gospel of John" and make an "informed" decision concerning your eternal destiny...please don't die in spiritual ignorance and lose your soul in Hell void knowledge of God's Covenant of Grace.

Agility_Dude

@RickeyD:

I don't want to know what you believe, I want to know why you believe it. There doesn't seem to be anything here that I can rebut on an empirical or philosophical level except to say that what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I know that you don't like it when I reference points made by counter-apologetics, but this is one of the most important ideas in epistemology.

I keep on noticing that you presuppose that I believe in the holy spirit but no in god. I don't believe in any supernatural entity, whether it is gods, the holy spirit, or a man rising from the dead.

Because I want to know why you believe the things you do, and this is a debate website, I will proceed to ask you 2 questions that will hopefully unpack why you believe in the Christian god:

1. Assuming that you are talking to someone who doesn't believe in anything in the bible in the first place, how can you demonstrate that the bible is the infallible word of god?

2. You said in the intro to this debate that atheist know that there is a god. How would you be able to demonstrate that I believe in a god?

SkepticalOne

@RickeyD

1) Nature

The arguments under this heading boil down to 'the appearance of design is actually design' or 'nature is too complex to be natural'. Either way we look at it, the reasoning doesn't follow. The appearance of design does not demand design. A performer can provide the appearance of magic. However, we typically understand the appearance of magic itself does little to show magic real. It is the same with 'design'. There is no signature on the alleged design.

Furthermore, there are aspects of reality which, if designed, show an incompetent or malicious designer and this does not mesh with the designer normally being advocated. A good example of poor design can be found in the human pharynx.  This passageway is used for both respiration and ingestion drastically increasing the likelihood of choking. A better design could have eliminated this likelihood. Many times, design advocates will argue these instances of poor design are due to humanity rebelling against God (the Fall). This would mean that pre-fall, the pharynx did not exist or was built differently.  There is no evidence for this.  The "Fall" explanation is very much a way of cherry-picking the evidence to suggest a designer while dismissing the evidence which argues against it. 

2) Jesus
The OP argues the historicity of Jesus and the 'fulfilled prophecies' claimed in the Bible are evidence for the Christian deity. 

a. The Historicity of Jesus - Most scholars agree Jesus was a real historical figure. However, historians do not endorse a man named Jesus rose from the dead and was the son of god. Just as one can accept Kim Jong-un is a real person while rejecting the claims of him being a deity, the same is applicable to Jesus.  A legitimate historicity doesn't mean all claims associated with an historical figure are true. Historicity =/= Deity

b. Prophecies - Lord, , Lunatic
We often see prophecies forwarded as an evidence for the divinity of Jesus.  However, when we consider the above accepted historicity of Jesus, it requires a leap of faith to hold the same evidence (which can only support the existence of a man named Jesus and not the supernatural claims associated with him) somehow also supports the divinity of Jesus. The Lord, , Lunatic, trilemma leaves out one other possibility: Legend. It is human nature to inflate those we admire to just a little more than they actually were. Over time, tales grow more and more fantastic.  Given that tales of Jesus likely spread by word of mouth for decades, it is no stretch to imagine that more and more prophecies were fulfilled in the retelling. Given the choice between unverifiable prophetic fulfillment pointing to Lord or Legend - the latter is much more likely.

3) The Bible

The very portions of the Bible which the OP must use to advance the divinity of Jesus suffer from the rebuttal above.  The earliest books of the NT weren't thought to be authored/recorded until decades after the death of Jesus with the latest gospel nearly 60 years after. Furthermore, we can see the divinity of Jesus evolving between Mark (the earliest canonical gospel) and John (the last canonical gospel).  The author of Mark held to a low Christology - Jesus was not a god, but a man given authority from the god of the Bible. On the other hand, the author of John held to a high Christology - Jesus was fully god from 'the beginning' or even pre-eternal. It could be that the earliest gospel didn't explain the divinity of Jesus fully (or was simply incorrect in it's understanding) or it could be that John reflected the extent to which the legend of Jesus had grown 60 years after his death. The evidence (humans have a tendency to build legends) suggests the latter is the more likely alternative.

Conclusion:

A critical evaluation of the evidence provided by the OP finds it is indeed insufficient to believe in the Christian deity.

MayCaesar

I will just go back to my Cleopatra example to illustrate how legends persist. There were many rumors about Cleopatra, in her time and, even more so, in the subsequent centuries. Among the things prescribed to her at various times were the following:

• Cleopatra could make any man fall in love with her upon the first eye contact.
• Cleopatra spoke over 20 languages fluently.
• Cleopatra was so beautiful, people could tell when she is in their city from the aura she radiated.
• Cleopatra could look at the sun straight infinitely and not blink or have her eyes damaged.
• Cleopatra had wild nights involving sex with over 10 men and women, and all of them would leave exhausted, while she still craved for more.
• Cleopatra was a pharaoh and, hence, a goddess, with all the divine attributes that come with it.

Looks strikingly similar quantitatively to what is prescribed to Jesus, does it not? Now, any Christian with a tiny ability to critically think would dismiss all these claims as legends made by impressionable writers and orators. Yet when it comes to Jesus, suddenly similar in plausibility stories become an unquestionable truth.

The lack of self-awareness in many religious people is baffling. They see other religions, myths and superstitions for what they are, but are blind to the fact that their own religion is basically the same thing.

RickeyD

@MayCaesar ; Jesus Christ is not just a "legend" Who divided history and our calendar, but Jesus Christ is God, Creator, Messiah, Judge, Mediator, and without Jesus to mediate you sin before the Father, you will die in sin and lose your soul in Hell.

RickeyD

@SkepticalOne ; When you follow demons like Hitchens, you will naturally fall into a pit in the darkness of their demonically oriented wisdom and futility. You, in your atheism, are currently headed to death in sin and Hell and unless you repent of your sin and sincerely believe in Jesus Christ as Lord for the mediation of that sin, you will not find life in God's Kingdom but you will die in this life in your sin and die in Eternity in Hell, both body and soul. I strongly urge you to sit quietly and read through the "Gospel of John" in the New Testament and make an informed decision concerning your eternal destiny before the Age of Grace has ended for you at your last exhalation.

RickeyD

@Agility_Dude ;  I know what I believe and why because I have studied and I can come to no other conclusion than the Truth that Christianity is the only coherent worldview with corresponding truth that defines origin-meaning-morality-destiny and directly answers with logical consistency, empirical adequacy, experiential relevance. There is ONE God and ONE Mediator for sin, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

During my study of the Holy Scriptures, I came to the irrefutable conclusion that Jesus Christ is God who died for me so that I could live and find righteousness (a right standing) with God the Father by grace through faith in what Jesus did for me at the Crucifixion...it is the sinless, spotless, blood of Jesus Christ shed at Golgotha that paid my sin-debt (2 Corinthians 5:21) and having trusted in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection as payment for my sin, I have been forgiven of all sin, past-present-future, and I have received the imputation of Jesus' perfection over my life; therefore, God the Father has adjudicated me "not guilty" as I am now His child through the rebirth (John 3:16)...most importantly, with the rebirth by faith in Messiah as Lord, I have received the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13) who is my closest Friend and it is the Holy Spirit that gives me wisdom, discernment, faith, understanding, strength, knowledge, to not only live the Christian life through the process of sanctification but the Holy Spirit is my Seal and my Guarantor of relationship with God the Father, forever (1 John 2:27; John 16:13). No one, nothing, can snatch me away from my relationship with Jesus Christ and God the Father...I am secure forever in "I AM" (Exodus 3:14). I have an eternal understanding of origin and why...this is a most precious gift of assurance-peace-contentment granted by the Holy Spirit for having believed and trusted in Jesus as Lord.

Agility_Dude

@RickeyD:

I didn't see anything in this post that explained why you believe the things that you do. Maybe understanding what evidence would change my mind on the issue of whether god exists would be useful. I believe that if you demonstrate that the god of the bible is the explanation for the origin of the universe which makes the fewest assumptions, or the simplest explanation for the origin of the universe, then I would be convinced that there is a god. For now I have not encountered any evidence to demonstrate this.

Maybe you can explain to me what burden of proof I fulfill. to make to change your mind, and we can hopefully reach a conclusion together on this. I know that in your first post you suggested that atheists were dishonest, and I don't want you to think that. I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. I changed my mind on the existence of god once, and so I can change it again.

RickeyD

@Agility_Dude ; Nothing will change your mind except direct divine intervention as you have decided to reject the preliminary evidence provided you by our Creator in Nature...you have destined yourself to die in sin and Hell and the way Home to life for you grows more distant with each passing day. I do wish there was something I could say or do that could make you see your need for Jesus Christ as Lord, but you are blinded by darkness and your life is lived in futility and hopelessness. Unless you're willing to admit you're a sinner and repent of your sin, sincerely trust and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord for the mediation of said sin, you will live and die in sin and die in Hell. I am sorry!  Please read the "Gospel of John" and understand why the impending judgment you will face is tragic.

SkepticalOne

RickeyD said:

@SkepticalOne ; When you follow demons like Hitchens, you will naturally fall into a pit in the darkness of their demonically oriented wisdom and futility. You, in your atheism, are currently headed to death in sin and Hell and unless you repent of your sin and sincerely believe in Jesus Christ as Lord for the mediation of that sin, you will not find life in God's Kingdom but you will die in this life in your sin and die in Eternity in Hell, both body and soul. I strongly urge you to sit quietly and read through the "Gospel of John" in the New Testament and make an informed decision concerning your eternal destiny before the Age of Grace has ended for you at your last exhalation.

Your response seems to be 'Hitchens bad, you bad ...be afraid', and no attempt to engage the substance of my rebuttal...

RickeyD

@SkepticalOne ; If you're willing to post one of your nonsensical accusations against Christ...post ONE and allow me to respond and rebut, I will do that. I've read this trash far too many times and rebutted it far too many times...be kind to this old man...just post one at a time and let's discuss it if you're that sure of your position. You're a dying, lost, atheist...my patience runs thin with his nonsense.  Be kind?

RickeyD

@SkepticalOne ; If you're willing to post one of your nonsensical accusations against Christ...post ONE and allow me to respond and rebut, I will do that. I've read this trash far too many times and rebutted it far too many times...be kind to this old man...just post one at a time and let's discuss it if you're that sure of your position. ...my patience runs thin with this nonsense.  Be kind?

SkepticalOne

RickeyD said:

@SkepticalOne ; If you're willing to post one of your nonsensical accusations against Christ...post ONE and allow me to respond and rebut, I will do that. I've read this trash far too many times and rebutted it far too many times...be kind to this old man...just post one at a time and let's discuss it if you're that sure of your position. ...my patience runs thin with this nonsense.  Be kind?

I have taken the time to respond to *your* OP in its entirety. If you are unable to respond in kind, then might I suggest you limit your OPs to one point. I've done nothing but return what you've dished out.