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who is next
in Science

By maxxmaxx 215 Pts
just for the sake of the debate, if humans suddenly ceased to exist; what life-form has the best chance to;  not only become top of the food chain, but to eventually evolve to the point where humans are at today? and ricky, this is not about religion so do not bother to answer.



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  • AlofRIAlofRI 552 Pts
    I think we'll go back to the knuckle draggers and start all over. :pensive:
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3208 Pts
    None that we know of. We only have one data point here: humans are the only species that, as far as we know, ever have developed intelligence on this planet. We do not know what conditions are required for such development, what species can in principle develop it, etc.

    Perhaps some bird species becomes intelligent eventually, if we are wiped out. Or some insect species. Could be anything. By various studies, dolphins seem to be the closest to having intelligence among all the species we have investigated, so they are a good potential candidate - and since they live in the water, a civilisation they would build would likely be very different from ours.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 25
    i agree with the birds, however humans are not the only ones who developed intelligence.  humans are the only ones who developed"" human"" intelligence . There is no reason in the absence of humans, that another species may fill the niche that humans left behind.  tell me, why do you believe that no other species can not 'ever' develop the intellect that humans achieved?@MayCaesar
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3208 Pts
    @maxx

    By "intelligence" here I imply the ability to consciously forecast the future and alter one's decisions based on it, as opposed to being guided by instincts. That is the ability only humans have developed so far.

    I by no means believe that no other species can ever develop a similar ability. I am just saying that we do not know much about the conditions required for a species to develop it, so it is hard to predict what species, if any, will be the next one to do so on Earth.
  • There are several commonly accepted species and groups that have fairly close-to-human intelligence.
    Corvids, such as crows, magpies and ravens
    Elephants
    Apes and a few select monkeys
    Cetaceans, especially dolphins
    Octopuses, though this one is a bit more of a stretch.
    Plaffelvohfen
    "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." 
  • There is no way to tell if humans or other animals would even develope past their already assigned intellect or that they would need to.  I think if people ceased to exist and the animal kingdom were to some how survive that they would be happy just being who they are and continue living their lives.

    As far as who would replace us?  Who says we need to be replaced.

    What in nature requires us?
    Plaffelvohfen
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    well, nature hates a vacuum and if humans no longer exist to supress the rest of the animal kingdom; then it is quite possible some race of animals would eventually  evolve  enough intelligence and enough body changes to achieve an actual civilization. why should they not?@all4actt
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    This reminds me of "So Long And Thanks For All The Fish"

    “For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”

    MayCaesar
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    well, if you are going to quote douglas adam, then you should give him credits@CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    maxx said:
    well, if you are going to quote douglas adam, then you should give him credits@CYDdharta

    I did say it was from "So Long And Thanks For All The Fish"
  • This is a fascinating topic, mostly because of how speculative it is, but also because of how many possibilities there are.

    That being said, I think the major constraints to intelligence that are the true limiting factors are not exactly what you would expect.

    For example, not only is raw intelligence important, but also is having a body shape capable of supporting that intelligence in a meaningful way.

    So dolphins, which are already almost as smart as humans are not a very good candidate because their body is not shaped in a way that allows then to achieve any kind of technological development.

    Then we have other factors, such as life span. Cephalopods such as Squid, Octopus, and cuddle fish are theoretically capable of using tools ( some already do) and therefore achieving some technological ascension, however they have a major limiting factor- life span. These creatures typically don't live for more than 2-5 years, meaning the amount they can learn is limited. Even if they had a major increase in both life span and in intelligence, it is unlikely that they would ever achieve what humans have.

    All marine life faces another major barrier, which is fire. Without fire many technologies become nearly impossible to produce, and this has compounding factors which slow development of any species. For example, smelting metals becomes essentially impossible, which means that any tools made will have to come from other less durable sources. While it is not impossible for a species to eventually figure these things out, it is unlikely that any marine animal would overcome this hurdle in a reasonable amount of time.

    This brings us to the two major candidates, which is apes and birds. Humans of course evolved from apes, so to think that another species would fill the niche left by humans is not unthinkable and is fairly likely, given that it has already happened once before.

    For birds, the major challenge is body plan same as for dolphins. Birds can only use their beaks and talons to do things, so it is significantly more difficult for them to be able to do any kind of complex construction, although not unthinkable. One important thing to note about birds is that their brains are structured very differently from mammal brains. In particular, they are more dense and have on average more neurons per cubic volume than mammal brains do.
    WinstonC
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • WinstonCWinstonC 120 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot The problem with birds (as spectacularly intelligent as some are) is that they have invested a lot into flight. This means that they cannot carry huge heavy brains. I'd speculate that adaptation to these size and weight limits are the reason their brains are structured so differently to mammals.

    What you say about marine life is very interesting considering that it's thought that our mastery of fire allowed us to invest less energy into digestion therefore allowing us to develop larger brains. Perhaps this precludes marine life from our level of intellect entirely.
    Happy_Killbot
  • @WinstonC

    There is a good analysis of this topic in a series by Issac Arthur, and he even has a 20 minute episode relating just to technological development without fire.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8uJ2int43Y

    His entire channel is filled with this kind of stuff if you are interested.
    WinstonC
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    true but credits go to the author @CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    maxx said:
    true but credits go to the author @CYDdharta

    ...which is why I included the reference.  Anyone who was interested could simply look it up.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    well, i hate to disagree  but you did not include a reference.  you included a quote. many ppeople may think that you made the quote up.  you gave a title. no where did you give the author. i hate to say it but pagiarism is so rampant upon the internet that no one cares anymore.@CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    edited March 30
    maxx said:
    well, i hate to disagree  but you did not include a reference.  you included a quote. many ppeople may think that you made the quote up.  you gave a title. no where did you give the author. i hate to say it but pagiarism is so rampant upon the internet that no one cares anymore.@CYDdharta

    I gave the title of the book from which the quote came, AKA, a reference.  I put the book title in QUOTATION marks, and the quote in a QUOTE box.  The only people who would think I came up with the that quote are people who would think my name was Douglas Adams. 
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 30
    you are wrong.  perhaps you should look up the definition of plagarigism.  when you quote something that is not yours, then you give the name of the person who wrote it.  The title of the book nor the quote is not the author.  go back to college.@CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    edited March 30
    maxx said:
    you are wrong.  perhaps you should look up the definition of plagarigism.  when you quote something that is not yours, then you give the name of the person who wrote it.  The title of the book nor the quote is not the author.  go back to college.@CYDdharta

    Do you have any cheese for that whine?

    It's pretty trying to claim plagiarism when I included the book title, even dumber when I put the quote IN A QUOTE BOX.  Some day, if you ever leave your mommy's basement, you'll understand.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3208 Pts
    edited March 31
    @CYDdharta

    My father had this humorous theory. According to it, dinosaurs eventually became highly intelligent - but, instead of, like humans, building civilisation, they thought everything through philosophically, realised that civilisation would make them miserable and decided to just keep living naturally and have fun.

    We could be very intelligent species - but also, at the same time, incredibly impractical.
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    MayCaesar said:
    @CYDdharta

    My father had this humorous theory. According to it, dinosaurs eventually became highly intelligent - but, instead of, like humans, building civilisation, they thought everything through philosophically, realised that civilisation would make them miserable and decided to just keep living naturally and have fun.

    We could be very intelligent species - but also, at the same time, incredibly impractical.

    Isn't that what we're trying to do is have fun?  Not many people take a job they know they're going to hate; it may end up that way, but that wasn't many people's original intention.  The ones that do took the job for money to maximize their leisure time.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 31
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 31
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 31
    1@CYDdharta
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 31
    go back to school.if you are so  incapable of understanding that it requires the authors name instead of the title and or a quote, then you you should not be on a site that requires a written format.  look up the defintion!  when you give a quote or produce any other work that is not your own; then you give the authors name or it is plagiarism. anyone knows that; or should.  the title is not the author, nor is the quote.  .@CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    edited March 31
    maxx said:
    go back to school.if you are so  incapable of understanding that it requires the authors name instead of the title and or a quote, then you you should not be on a site that requires a written format.  look up the defintion!  when you give a quote or produce any other work that is not your own; then you give the authors name or it is plagiarism. anyone knows that; or should.  the title is not the author, nor is the quote.  .@CYDdharta

    Once again, quit your whining.  If you want to get technical about it, and it seems that's the only point of your whine, you need to include a lot more than the author's name;

    Basic rules



       -   Begin your Works Cited page on a separate page at the end of your research paper. It should have the same one-inch margins and last name, page number header as the rest of your paper.

       -   Label the page Works Cited (do not italicize the words Works Cited or put them in quotation marks) and center the words Works Cited at the top of the page.

             -   Only the title should be centered. The citation entries themselves should be aligned with the left margin.

       -   Double space all citations, but do not skip spaces between entries.

       -   Indent the second and subsequent lines of citations by 0.5 inches to create a hanging indent.

       -   List page numbers of sources efficiently, when needed. If you refer to a journal article that appeared on pages 225 through 250, list the page numbers on your Works Cited page as pp. 225-50 (Note: MLA style dictates that you should omit the first sets of repeated digits. In our example, the digit in the hundreds place is repeated between 225 and 250, so you omit the 2 from 250 in the citation: pp. 225-50). If the excerpt spans multiple pages, use “pp.”   Note that MLA style uses a hyphen in a span of pages.

       -   If only one page of a print source is used, mark it with the abbreviation “p.” before the page number (e.g., p.157). If a span of pages is used, mark it with the abbreviation “pp.” before the page number (e.g., pp.157-68).

       -   If you're citing an article or a publication that was originally issued in print form but that you retrieved from an online database, you should type the online database name in italics. You do not need to provide subscription information in addition to the database name.
    https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and_citation/mla_style/mla_formatting_and_style_guide/mla_works_cited_page_basic_format.html

    maxx
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    You are the one who refused to give the author, references and credits, not me. How would you like it if you wrote a book and came across part of it online with out your name associated with it?  @CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts

    maxx said:
    You are the one who refused to give the author, references and credits, not me. How would you like it if you wrote a book and came across part of it online with out your name associated with it?  @CYDdharta

    In all likelihood, I'd probably prefer not being associated with a book written by you.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited April 1
    that is not what i said.  learn to read.  let us assume that you wrote a book, a short story, or a poem and(highly unlikely) and you come across a portion of it on the web somewhere.  guess what, the person who posted your work did not give your name . it doesnt matter if he does not claim he wrote it, he failed to give you credits for producing it. you may claim it would not bother you, but if it happened then i am sure you would not be very happy to see your work online with out you being credited as the author. @CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    edited April 1
    maxx said:
    that is not what i said.  learn to read.  let us assume that you wrote a book, a short story, or a poem and(highly unlikely) and you come across a portion of it on the web somewhere.  guess what, the person who posted your work did not give your name . it doesnt matter if he does not claim he wrote it, he failed to give you credits for producing it. you may claim it would not bother you, but if it happened then i am sure you would not be very happy to see your work online with out you being credited as the author. @CYDdharta

    Are you really so bored with life that you feel the need to keep grasping at these straws?  You really need to get a life, and a clue.  If someone quoted a book I wrote on a site with relatively little traffic, like say, a blog or a debate site, ALONG WITH THE TITLE OF THAT BOOK, THEN I'D HAVE GOTTEN ALL CREDIT I'D EXPECT.  IT WOULDN'T BOTHER ME AT ALL!!

    Just a suggestion, but one that would probably make anyone who still bothers to read this thread happy; how about posting something relevant to the thread topic.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    yeah, right.  happy plagerizing. you are dismissed. 
  • John_C_87John_C_87 289 Pts
    maxx said:
    you are wrong.  perhaps you should look up the definition of plagarigism.  when you quote something that is not yours, then you give the name of the person who wrote it.  The title of the book nor the quote is not the author.  go back to college.@CYDdharta
    There is clearly not an act of passing off work
  • John_C_87John_C_87 289 Pts
    Something like passing off an approximation as a ratio. The passing off of a principle of calculation used to negate velocity from distance in a situation where it is not used, yet. Maxx you are practicing a test of GOD as knowledge not plagiarism as a crime-fraud. Constitutionally plagiarism is not the crime, the crime is a fraud as the action which is wrong. The freedom of the press also relates to the ability of people to write without knowing who wrote what was said.

    If plagiarism was as you describe Maxx all sex novels would be guilty of it. There are only so many ways the same thing can be written over and over again. W.T.Farts???
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    I suggest you look it up or go back to college. The authors name is required when you quote a portion of his work @John_C_87
  • John_C_87John_C_87 289 Pts
    That is only when the quote is adding value by its use as credit to the writing. Why go to college when I can ask a, my lawyer, or the writers guild? Want to talk plagiarizing let's talk General relativity the fraud is clearly set by passing off proximation as a ratio by Albert Einstien. What school has never taught is time calculates through calculus a circle's diameter to the circumference as a radio.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    I have that book she quoted from and if you would open the first few pages it says no portion of this book shall be used or printed with out the publisher and or author permission or to give proper credits to the author. It about all novels state this. It is unfortunate that the web and technology allows people to circumvent this, don’t you think?@John_C_87
  • John_C_87John_C_87 289 Pts
    That what it said? But, what does it mean? 
  • John_C_87John_C_87 289 Pts
    So, again why go back to school why not just talk to a lawyer? What is the context of fraud by reading a title that reminds a person of a situation in a conversation? By the way, humans are not the top of the food chain, they are actually kind of low. The thing you do not translate into your thoughts is animals and insects will simply kill us for infringing on them. Leaving the flesh to be eaten by other animals or bugs.

    By the way, I take regular online classes for all kinds of things and I still can't get the point you made.
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1247 Pts
    maxx said:
    yeah, right.  happy plagerizing. you are dismissed. 

    You should direct your whining at an actual plagiarist, like Joe Biden.
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